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[Gbraga]

Anyone notice at times the moon appears in front of the clouds?

The cosmic eye watcher badge says this too:

“Badge of a member of the Choir, elites of the Healing Church. The eye signifies the very cosmos. The Choir stumbled upon an epiphany, very suddenly and quite by accident. Here we stand, feet planted in the earth. but might the cosmos be very near us, only just above our heads?”

Is this the "eldrich truth", and WTF does it mean?

I think this just represents the Choir's epiphany that their gods are actually aliens and come from space, and was later shortened to "The sky and cosmos are one".

To us, "the cosmos" being the space and the Great Ones being aliens are obvious things, but that's because we've been exposed to this genre before, but they are still figuring out this eldritch truth they came in contact with through the chalice dungeons.

 

[Karsticles]

I've lost track of the conversation here, but have we discussed the Doll being the Great One that is seeking a surrogate for its child?

 

[Gbraga]

I've lost track of the conversation here, but have we discussed the Doll being the Great One that is seeking a surrogate for its child?

A bit, yeah, but it's still a recent discussion, so please do add to it!

 

[w00zey]

Now that I think about it again, it sounds kinda obvious, so forgive me if I'm preaching to the Choir here (

), but the same way that Micolash and the School of Mensis can be used to make connections to Gehrman and the Hunter's Dream, and how the internal logic of the nightmare works, as well as giving me reason to believe Rom isn't mindless, I feel like they can also be used to show the in-lore difference between Rom and ourselves in the cord ending.
.

For the sake of discussion and maybe I just wasn't able to pull it out of the rest of your post but why would you think that Rom is not mindless? Seems weird that they would go through the trouble to label him as mindless.

I played through the game twice and I still feel a tad lost so this could be all on me.

 

[Artex]

I think this just represents the Choir's epiphany that their gods are actually aliens and come from space, and was later shortened to "The sky and cosmos are one".

To us, "the cosmos" being the space and the Great Ones being aliens are obvious things, but that's because we've been exposed to this genre before, but they are still figuring out this eldritch truth they came in contact with through the chalice dungeons.

Why does the moon appear so close to earth?

 

[Gbraga]

For the sake of discussion and maybe I just wasn't able to pull it out of the rest of your post but why would you think that Rom is not mindless? Seems weird that they would go through the trouble to label him as mindless.

I played through the game twice and I still feel a tad lost so this could be all on me.

Well, the major points would be:

- Vacuous itself isn't necessarily mindless, it could also mean inexpressive, devoid of purpose. In the brazilian portuguese version, she's actually called "Rom, a aranha inexpressiva", so, Rom, the inexpressive spider.

- If she was indeed mindless, stupid, why would Micolash still wish to ascend as she did? And he's not just unaware of her state, he specifically says "as you once did for the vacuous Rom, grant us eyes". Seems to me he believes Rom isn't stupid, just didn't share.

- The following lore note, found in Byrgenwerth: "The spider hides all manner of rituals, certain to reveal nothing, for true enlightenment need not be shared."

My understanding is that Rom successfully ascended to become a Great One (maybe not a true Great One, but regardless, that is another discussion), but then, nothing. All the eldritch knowledge they were expecting to get by one of them becoming a Great One was kept from them, since the spider shared nothing. The vacuous title almost seems to me that it was given out of spite.

We can speculate on the reason she didn't share the eldritch truth, maybe by becoming a Great One she was so beyond her humanity that she didn't care, maybe she was doing so in order to protect them, some secrets are better left untold, or maybe she just really is incapable of sharing. We can only make out a few words through Caryll Runes, after all, and the Rune Workshop description hints that Caryll only started his work quite some time after Willem's time (he's still somewhat alive, but he seems to be actually vacuous).

Micolash wanted Kosm to do to him what was done to Rom, because that was the only way for him to achieve this truth, he had to ascend in order to understand it, the spider was certain to reveal nothing.

Why does the moon appear so close to earth?

That's just part of the thing, I guess, haha.

Relevant lore notes:

In Old Yharnam: "The red moon hangs low, and beasts rule the streets. Are we left no other choice, than to burn it all to cinders?"

In Byrgenwerth: "When the red moon hangs low, the line between man and beast is blurred. And when the Great Ones descend, a womb will be blessed with child."

Relevant to the previous note, in Yahar'gul:

"Madmen toil surreptitiously in rituals to beckon the moon. Uncover their secrets."

"The Mensis ritual must be stopped, lest we all become beasts."

It's part of the night of the hunt, the moon gets closer, and the Great Ones descend. People go mad and become beasts, the Church conducts their nightly hunt, and when the sun rises again, things go back to normal.

 

[The_Darkest_Red]

In Old Yharnam: "The red moon hangs low, and beasts rule the streets. Are we left no other choice, than to burn it all to cinders?"

Is it more or less agreed upon that the Powder Kegs are responsible for the fiery destruction of Old Yarnham? There was a large section about that in the 90 page lore document and I thought it was fairly well reasoned. I think it adds a lot to Djura's backstory which is really fantastic.

 

[PolishQ]

Perhaps Rom's title of "Vacuous" is more in reference to how she makes OTHERS mindless, by preventing them from seeing beyond the veil.

Anyone notice at times the moon appears in front of the clouds?

The cosmic eye watcher badge says this too:

“Badge of a member of the Choir, elites of the Healing Church. The eye signifies the very cosmos. The Choir stumbled upon an epiphany, very suddenly and quite by accident. Here we stand, feet planted in the earth. but might the cosmos be very near us, only just above our heads?”

Is this the "eldrich truth", and WTF does it mean?

I've been meaning to bring this up. The One Reborn's cutscene is a good thing to examine here. His birth from the moon really does make it look like the "sky" is hanging right above Yharnam. Also notice that for an instant, a star field is visible within the black mist that covers the moon. A star field quite similar to the one seen when A Call Beyond is cast, or when Ebrietas casts her magic attack. This, of course, is the Cosmos.

Now, let's consider the connection to Ebrietas, Daughter of the Cosmos, and the Celestial Children (the little grey slug babies, which are basically mini-Ebrietases - they even have her wings). Initially I thought that the slugs must be offspring of Ebrietas, given their similar appearance, but another possibility is that they are SIBLINGS of Ebrietas - in other words, other children of the Cosmos.

This makes sense, since we actually witness the birth of one of these Celestial Children - from Arianna. The Third Cord we can then retrieve from its corpse mentions Oedon, whose blood "began this eldritch liason." Why does the Cord mention Oedon if this is a child of the Cosmos? The natural answer is that Oedon is another name for the Cosmos. After all, both are formless!

So, it would seem that Oedon/Cosmos can impregnate the Vilebloods (the nobles of Cainhurst. who carry the forbidden blood of Queen Yharnam) - or can at least alter their children if they are already pregnant. The Third Cords can then be retrieved from these children. The first Third Cord, which Laurence and Gehrman used to contact the Moon Presence, was retrieved from Queen Yharnam's child - a child that they cut from her womb.

 

[Gbraga]

Is it more or less agreed upon that the Powder Kegs are responsible for the fiery destruction of Old Yarnham? There was a large section about that in the 90 page lore document and I thought it was fairly well reasoned. I think it adds a lot to Djura's backstory which is really fantastic.

I guess it makes sense, they were hunters and the church decided to burn the city because of the beasts taking over, so it's natural they'd be involved. I don't think it's very relevant though. Djura just realized the beasts were people who became beasts because of the blood, not just random monsters that the church hunted to bring safety to yharnamites.

I think Djura's whole motivation is quite weak, honestly. He's a cool character, but I don't get this sense of a plot twist from his story, something to think about or anything. It's quite obvious that they were once human, if you read the descriptions (even if you don't, tbh). The Cleric Beast drops the badge that says that clerics became the most hideous beasts. Thing is, human once or no, they're still beasts, they'll kill you if you don't kill them. His reasoning of "those beasts do no harm to the people above, leave them be" makes sense, but siding with them is just nonsense to me, just seal Old Yharnam and get out. The way it is, he's more insane than anything, at least to me.

 

[The_Darkest_Red]

I guess it makes sense, they were hunters and the church decided to burn the city because of the beasts taking over, so it's natural they'd be involved. I don't think it's very relevant though. Djura just realized the beasts were people who became beasts because of the blood, not just random monsters that the church hunted to bring safety to yharnamites.

I think Djura's whole motivation is quite weak, honestly. He's a cool character, but I don't get this sense of a plot twist from his story, something to think about or anything. It's quite obvious that they were once human, if you read the descriptions (even if you don't, tbh). The Cleric Beast drops the badge that says that clerics became the most hideous beasts. Thing is, human once or no, they're still beasts, they'll kill you if you don't kill them. His reasoning of "those beasts do no harm to the people above, leave them be" makes sense, but siding with them is just nonsense to me, just seal Old Yharnam and get out. The way it is, he's more insane than anything, at least to me.

I definitely think he's gone off the deep end. In the descriptions for his armor it says:

"Djura is known through his contact with the Powder Kegs,
the heretics of the workshop. He is said to have been
both uncommonly kind and dreadfully foolish.

Djura felt defeated by the state of Old Yharnam,
and renounced his hunter's vows."

I think he was involved in the cleansing of Old Yarnham and he is suffering from some form of PTSD after having to put down so many beasts, fully knowing all along that they used to be humans. His uncommon kindness seemed to make it very difficult for him to accept killing the beasts so he eventually gave in to Gehrman and retreated to Old Yarnham. It seems to me he is trying to make up for what he did, albeit in a very twisted and illogical way.

I find his story to be tragic and fascinating. That said, he does kind of fall into the trope you see in zombie fiction where a character wants to protect the zombies because they still see them as human.

 

[Gbraga]

I definitely think he's gone off the deep end. In the descriptions for his armor it says:

"Djura is known through his contact with the Powder Kegs,
the heretics of the workshop. He is said to have been
both uncommonly kind and dreadfully foolish.

Djura felt defeated by the state of Old Yharnam,
and renounced his hunter's vows."

I think he was involved in the cleansing of Old Yarnham and he is suffering from some form of PTSD after having to put down so many beasts, fully knowing all along that they used to be humans. His uncommon kindness seemed to make it very difficult for him to accept killing the beasts so he eventually gave in to Gehrman and retreated to Old Yarnham. It seems to me he is trying to make up for what he did, albeit in a very twisted and illogical way.

I find his story to be tragic and fascinating. That said, he does kind of fall into the trope you see in zombie fiction where a character wants to protect the zombies because they still see them as human.

Yeah, I think you nailed it with this post. I'm with you.

EDIT: Thinking about it now, he's pretty much this game's Priscilla.

 

[Karsticles]

Hypothesis:

Vacuous can mean empty, but there's no reason to think that it means the mind is empty. Other aspects of a person can be empty as well. Throughout Bloodborne, Beastliness is contrasted with Insight. What attributes are indicative of the lowliness of beasts? Usually, the primary one is the baser desires - eating, sleeping, sex, etc. Insight could follow a Buddhistic line of thinking that encourages detachment from the "beastly" world. Rom is vacuous not because she is mindless, but because she has become empty in worldly desire. She simply sits and exists in a kind of nirvana-like state, much like the Old Ones may (they just chill on the buildings all game). Thus, becoming vacuous is a compliment, not an insult.

 

[Artex]

Here is an example of what I mean about the moon being closer than the clouds:

 

[Gbraga]

Hypothesis:

Vacuous can mean empty, but there's no reason to think that it means the mind is empty. Other aspects of a person can be empty as well. Throughout Bloodborne, Beastliness is contrasted with Insight. What attributes are indicative of the lowliness of beasts? Usually, the primary one is the baser desires - eating, sleeping, sex, etc. Insight could follow a Buddhistic line of thinking that encourages detachment from the "beastly" world. Rom is vacuous not because she is mindless, but because she has become empty in worldly desire. She simply sits and exists in a kind of nirvana-like state, much like the Old Ones may (they just chill on the buildings all game). Thus, becoming vacuous is a compliment, not an insult.

That's an interest take to contrast with the "vacuous out of spite", definitely fits as well. And makes it simple, I guess, it's not that she's called vacuous but Micolash doesn't believe she's vacuous, it's just that he also wants to be vacuous.

Both theories still agree on the main point, "Rom isn't mindless", which is the more important part, so that's great.

 

[Toxi]

Here is an example of what I mean about the moon being closer than the clouds:

That's no moon...

 

[OniBarubary]

Maybe I'm a bit off on this, but I thought from various things in the game, that the Church kept searching for the Great Ones in the wrong places I.E. they kept looking up at the stars and didn't realize how close they actually were, as in they are in Nightmares or dimensions right next to ours. There seemed to be something there that made me think they weren't literally from space but were like the lesser Amygdalas, much closer than we thought.

 

[KittenMaster]

Here is an example of what I mean about the moon being closer than the clouds:

I guess this is a more literal instance of "the sky and cosmos are one".

Also, anyone else think that "Vacuous Rom" sounds like a programmer joke? "Vacuous ROM, a memory chip freshly formatted".

 

[JerkShep]

I've been thinking about the more mysterious stuff, trying to come up with some something coherent, here's some ideas on various subjects

Rom, Willem and the Moonlight Lake: Could it be that the moonlight lake is another pocket dimension created in the same manner of the hunter's dream? Willem and Rom called a Great One, maybe Kosmos itself, with the third of umbilical cord that Iosefka drops. Maybe because Rom had a lot more insight than gherman, maybe just because kosmos is more powerful than the moon presence, Rom ascended and became the vacuous spider. if Rom actually conceal rituals, Kosmos could be a more "benevolent" being, trying to separate Great Ones and humanity.

Hunter's Dream: Laurence and Gherman beckoned the moon presence with one third of the umbilical cord (the one you found in the real abandoned workshop), the moon presence created the hunter's dream with Gherman as its guardian. The doll is "inspired" by the real doll found in the workshop and may actually be animated by the moon presence itself, so basically in the true ending the moon presence achieves its goal of having a child and even if you killed it, it sort of survive inside the doll, that's why the hunter's dream still exists. In a sort of poetic way, you managed to transcend humanity while the moon presence, a great one, survive only in a inferior form (the doll), but with its goal accomplished

Nightmare of Mensis/ Nightmare frontier: I'm thinking that Micolash or Mensis didn't actually create the Nightmare, they just managed to access it with the third of umbilical cord that Mergo's Wetnurse drops. The Nightmare is a different dimension, that exists indipendently from those who access it. Since Frontier has nothing to do it with Mensis, I guess it's just a different part of it. Maybe Micolash or other "dreamers" can influence its appearance, but that's it. Mergo's Loft was used as a sort of nursery for Mergo, under Mergo's Wetnurse watch. Maybe time flows differently in the Nightmare, or maybe a great one just takes a lot of time to grow, that could explain the fact that supposedly Queen Yharnam is centuries (?) old but Mergo is still a child (or you see it as a child?)

 

[eliochip]

Here is an example of what I mean about the moon being closer than the clouds:

The Traveler is in Bloodborne

 

[The_Darkest_Red]

Question for you guys, what are your thoughts on the baby crying in the background? I like the idea that it's an omnipresent Great One that we become more aware of as we gain insight but I'm not sure what other theories are out there. I assume most people take it to be Mergo?

 

[Easy_D]

Question for you guys, what are your thoughts on the baby crying in the background? I like the idea that it's an omnipresent Great One that we become more aware of as we gain insight but I'm not sure what other theories are out there.

I thought it was generally agreed that the baby crying is Mergo.

 

[Apeopleman]

Exactly who/what is Kos/or some say Kosm?

It's not Ebrietas that Micolash refers to, is it?

 

[The_Darkest_Red]

I thought it was generally agreed that the baby crying is Mergo.

Too fast for my stealth edit.

 

[Gbraga]

Question for you guys, what are your thoughts on the baby crying in the background? I like the idea that it's an omnipresent Great One that we become more aware of as we gain insight but I'm not sure what other theories are out there. I assume most people take it to be Mergo?

Hard to refute that it's Mergo, imo.

Exactly who/what is Kos/or some say Kosm?

It's not Ebrietas that Micolash refers to, is it?

I don't think we have solid evidence on Kosm, other than the fact that it's likely a "Great Great One", since it has the ability to give people eyes on the inside and ascend them to the status of a Great One.

I'd say Kosm and Oedon are most likely on a rank of their own, compared to the rest of the Great Ones we encounter.

 

[Gbraga]

sorry >_>

 

[Apeopleman]

I don't think we have solid evidence on Kosm, other than the fact that it's likely a "Great Great One", since it has the ability to give people eyes on the inside and ascend them to the status of a Great One.

I'd say Kosm and Oedon are most likely on a rank of their own, compared to the rest of the Great Ones we encounter.

So Kos and Odeon would be the gods of the gods, like Zeus is to the other greek gods?

 

[Artex]

Perhaps Rom's title of "Vacuous" is more in reference to how she makes OTHERS mindless, by preventing them from seeing beyond the veil.



I've been meaning to bring this up. The One Reborn's cutscene is a good thing to examine here. His birth from the moon really does make it look like the "sky" is hanging right above Yharnam. Also notice that for an instant, a star field is visible within the black mist that covers the moon. A star field quite similar to the one seen when A Call Beyond is cast, or when Ebrietas casts her magic attack. This, of course, is the Cosmos.

Now, let's consider the connection to Ebrietas, Daughter of the Cosmos, and the Celestial Children (the little grey slug babies, which are basically mini-Ebrietases - they even have her wings). Initially I thought that the slugs must be offspring of Ebrietas, given their similar appearance, but another possibility is that they are SIBLINGS of Ebrietas - in other words, other children of the Cosmos.

This makes sense, since we actually witness the birth of one of these Celestial Children - from Arianna. The Third Cord we can then retrieve from its corpse mentions Oedon, whose blood "began this eldritch liason." Why does the Cord mention Oedon if this is a child of the Cosmos? The natural answer is that Oedon is another name for the Cosmos. After all, both are formless!

So, it would seem that Oedon/Cosmos can impregnate the Vilebloods (the nobles of Cainhurst. who carry the forbidden blood of Queen Yharnam) - or can at least alter their children if they are already pregnant. The Third Cords can then be retrieved from these children. The first Third Cord, which Laurence and Gehrman used to contact the Moon Presence, was retrieved from Queen Yharnam's child - a child that they cut from her womb.

What's this about Arianna giving birth to a celestial child? I'm in NG+ and have her at the Cathedral Ward now, but didn't in my first playthrough. I keep trying to bang her and drink her blood or whatever.

 

[Apeopleman]

What's this about Arianna giving birth to a celestial child? I'm in NG+ and have her at the Cathedral Ward now, but didn't in my first playthrough. I keep trying to bang her and drink her blood or whatever.

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[PolishQ]

What's this about Arianna giving birth to a celestial child? I'm in NG+ and have her at the Cathedral Ward now, but didn't in my first playthrough. I keep trying to bang her and drink her blood or whatever.

If Arianna is in the Chapel, eventually she becomes "sick" and won't give you any more blood. After you kill Micolash, you can return to find her chair empty. Arianna can then be found in the sewer under the chapel, having given birth to a Celestial Child. You can kill the child to get a Third Cord.

 

[The_Darkest_Red]

Hard to refute that it's Mergo, imo.

So is Mergo omnipresent being that he's the child of Oedon? Also, he doesn't die when you see Nightmare Slain after fighting Mergo's Wet Nurse and hearing him cry? And if Mergo is alive what is Yharnam mourning?

 

[Easy_D]

So is Mergo omnipresent being that he's the child of Oedon? Also, he doesn't die when you see Nightmare Slain after fighting Mergo's Wet Nurse and hearing him cry? And if Mergo is alive what is Yharnam mourning?

Maybe Yharnam also yearns for a surrogate. Hard to be motherly to a child that doesn't have a physical form.

 

[Gbraga]

So Kos and Odeon would be the gods of the gods, like Zeus is to the other greek gods?

Kinda, I guess. Not so much gods of gods when it comes to direct orders and shit, I don't think Amygdala answers to Oedon, for example, I figure it has more to do with how advanced they are or whatever, I'm not so sure of what I mean, actually.

So is Mergo omnipresent being that he's the child of Oedon? Also, he doesn't die when you see Nightmare Slain after fighting Mergo's Wet Nurse and hearing him cry? And if Mergo is alive what is Yharnam mourning?

I have no idea about any of that, to be honest.

 

[SodiumBenzoate]

Could it be possible that Kos(m) and the Moon Presence are the same Great One? Doesn't Micolash mention the sky or the moon or something in his ramblings?



Oh, by the way. Did anyone else notice that once you go talk to Gherman at the end of the game, the Moon changes position in the sky? It's usually on the left (facing the front door of the workshop) in the direction of the Messenger-decoration stump, but at the end of the game it moves to the right of the tree Gherman is at. It's a neat little detail.

position 1: http://i.neoseeker.com/n/1/huntersdream_1427134959_thumb.jpg
position 2: http://www.vgfaq.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Bloodborne-Ending-2.jpg

 

[Apeopleman]

Kinda, I guess. Not so much gods of gods when it comes to direct orders and shit, I don't think Amygdala answers to Oedon, for example, I figure it has more to do with how advanced they are or whatever, I'm not so sure of what I mean, actually.

I have no idea about any of that, to be honest.

You are all over this thread. Always keeping discussion flowing and answering questions. ( in a good way)

"Bloodborne Historian" should be your tag title.

Continue doing good deeds, hunter

 

[PolishQ]

Could it be possible that Kos(m) and the Moon Presence are the same Great One? Doesn't Micolash mention the sky or the moon or something in his ramblings?

I'm more inclined to think that Kos(m) = Oedon (see my post above), but the Moon Presence could certainly be related as well.

 

[Karsticles]

Exactly who/what is Kos/or some say Kosm?

It's not Ebrietas that Micolash refers to, is it?

Simply put, we just don't meet most of the great ones that are referenced in-game. Kos/Kosm, Odeon, and Mergo are all such examples. Either they will never appear because they are beyond a silly hunter like we, or they will be DLC fights. I am hoping for the former - any actual fight against these guys couldn't live up to their esteemed greatness.

 

[Artex]

If Arianna is in the Chapel, eventually she becomes "sick" and won't give you any more blood. After you kill Micolash, you can return to find her chair empty. Arianna can then be found in the sewer under the chapel, having given birth to a Celestial Child. You can kill the child to get a Third Cord.

I sent the nun to the Chapel as well, and someone told me she might get jelly of me suckling on Arianna's teat all the time and kill her. Should I kill the nun? Can that prevent me from obtaining the umbilical cord?


Also, has anyone read this yet?

http://www.twinfinite.net/2015/05/06/bloodbornes-hidden-backstory-finally-explained/1/

 

[Toxi]

Simply put, we just don't meet most of the great ones that are referenced in-game. Kos/Kosm, Odeon, and Mergo are all such examples. Either they will never appear because they are beyond a silly hunter like we, or they will be DLC fights. I am hoping for the former - any actual fight against these guys couldn't live up to their esteemed greatness.

Oedon is formless, so meeting him doesn't make much sense.

 

[Karsticles]

Oedon is formless, so meeting him doesn't make much sense.

He could have an avatar or something.

He never even talks to you, despite being a voice.

 

[Gbraga]

You are all over this thread. Always keeping discussion flowing and answering questions. ( in a good way)

"Bloodborne Historian" should be your tag title.

Continue doing good deeds, hunter

Thank you, senpai

any actual fight against these guys couldn't live up to their esteemed greatness.

Agreed. More great one fights would be nice, but please don't make me fight Oedon.

He could have an avatar or something.

He never even talks to you, despite being a voice.

I've seen someone mentioning the voices you hear when you get insight could be his, and I thought that was really cool.

 

[Toxi]

He could have an avatar or something.

He never even talks to you, despite being a voice.

Are you sure about that? ;-)

When you gain insight, you hear whispers. Whose whispers could that be?

 

[KTallguy]

As long as they aren't the whispers of the White Lanterns I'm happy...

 

[Edzi]

Are you sure about that? ;-)

When you gain insight, you hear whispers. Whose whispers could that be?

I was just thinking this earlier. Definitely makes sense.

That also made me think about the whispers you hear throughout the One Reborn fight. Not sure if it's actually the boss itself whispering, but they do kinda sound similar to the whispers you hear while gaining insight, right? Perhaps there's a connection there too, possibly with Oedon.

One wild guess would be that maybe The One Reborn was a failed attempt at communicating directly with Oedon by binding him to a body? (The "One" would be Oedon, and "Reborn" would indicate the attempt at birthing him a new body?). This might clash with the earlier observation that the one reborn seems to come out of the paleblood moon, which would connect it more strongly to the MP...

 

[OniBarubary]

So is Mergo omnipresent being that he's the child of Oedon? Also, he doesn't die when you see Nightmare Slain after fighting Mergo's Wet Nurse and hearing him cry? And if Mergo is alive what is Yharnam mourning?

Maybe Yharnam also yearns for a surrogate. Hard to be motherly to a child that doesn't have a physical form.

Like Gbraga said, it's not certain but it'd be a pretty solid guess that you kill Mergo when you kill the Wet Nurse. Otherwise, killing the Wet Nurse being your goal makes no sense and Yharnam thanking you makes no sense. It's seek the nightmare newborn, not seek the keeper of the nightmare newborn.

Yharnam isn't a Great One so she's not mourning her child being a formless babby or a nightmare or whatever, moreso that she's sad/traumatized/despairing/whatever because she probably didn't willingly accept Oedon's baby and it's a monstrosity. When you kill the Wet Nurse and assumedly Mergo itself, she thanks you after. She's grateful you killed a terrible thing she brought into the world. I'd say that's pretty darn certain.

Now, this is all speculation from here on, but I honestly think that you're being sent to kill Mergo because as you gain insight and hear his cries outside of the Nightmare, it shows how powerful he is/could become when not a baby. He's literally so strong that even though he doesn't exist or have a physical body his cries can be heard in the real world. Maybe his existence is a threat to the plans of other Great Ones or something. MP might not be able to continue it's plans if a Great One of that much power matures and starts mucking up his perfect cycle.

Oedon is formless, so meeting him doesn't make much sense.

Agreed. More great one fights would be nice, but please don't make me fight Oedon.

Oh c'mon, that could be so cool. You basically just walk into a room, your speakers blow out and your save gets erased. He's so strong he actually deletes your saves.

 

[Karsticles]

Thank you, senpai

Agreed. More great one fights would be nice, but please don't make me fight Oedon.



I've seen someone mentioning the voices you hear when you get insight could be his, and I thought that was really cool.

Are you sure about that? ;-)

When you gain insight, you hear whispers. Whose whispers could that be?

I've never heard whispers, but I tend to play with the sound rather low. Where do you hear them?

 

[Gbraga]

Like Gbraga said, it's not certain but it'd be a pretty solid guess that you kill Mergo when you kill the Wet Nurse. Otherwise, killing the Wet Nurse being your goal makes no sense and Yharnam thanking you makes no sense. It's seek the nightmare newborn, not seek the keeper of the nightmare newborn.

Yharnam isn't a Great One so she's not mourning her child being a formless babby or a nightmare or whatever, moreso that she's sad/traumatized/despairing/whatever because she probably didn't willingly accept Oedon's baby and it's a monstrosity. When you kill the Wet Nurse and assumedly Mergo itself, she thanks you after. She's grateful you killed a terrible thing she brought into the world. I'd say that's pretty darn certain.

Now, this is all speculation from here on, but I honestly think that you're being sent to kill Mergo because as you gain insight and hear his cries outside of the Nightmare, it shows how powerful he is/could become when not a baby. He's literally so strong that even though he doesn't exist or have a physical body his cries can be heard in the real world. Maybe his existence is a threat to the plans of other Great Ones or something. MP might not be able to continue it's plans if a Great One of that much power matures and starts mucking up his perfect cycle.





Oh c'mon, that could be so cool. You basically just walk into a room, your speakers blow out and your save gets erased. He's so strong he actually deletes your saves.

The note in the Hunter's Dream is also worth considering:

"To escape this dreadful Hunter's Dream, halt the source of the spreading scourge of beasts, lest the night carry on forever."

Which brings us back to the following notes:

"The red moon hangs low, and beasts rule the streets. Are we left no other choice, than to burn it all to cinders?"

"When the red moon hangs low, the line between man and beast is blurred. And when the Great Ones descend, a womb will be blessed with child."

"Madmen toil surreptitiously in rituals to beckon the moon. Uncover their secrets."

"Nightmarish rituals crave a newborn. Find one, and silence its harrowing cry."

"The Mensis ritual must be stopped, lest we all become beasts."

By killing Mergo, we can put an end to the ritual that is beckoning the moon (Paleblood?), and finally end this night of the hunt that would otherwise go on forever, unlike the other nightly hunts that were just literally one night. This also explains why even the Healing Church has gone to shit, even their vicar is a beast, this night has been going on for so long that people have been turning to beasts while they're out there hunting beasts (Yharnamites or Gascoigne, for example. Yharnamites even seem to think they're still hunting beasts, judging by their dialogue, unaware of their own transformation). Sure, they would eventually become beasts and be prey to a new hunt, but it seems to me that normally it wouldn't be something so fast that you'll need to hunt the hunters you sent that same night.

I've never heard whispers, but I tend to play with the sound rather low. Where do you hear them?

Every time you get insight, even from madman's knowledge. I only play with headphones, so I never even considered the possibility of those whispers being hard to listen. Not sure if that makes the theory more or less likely to be correct.

 

[Revengineer]

Here is an example of what I mean about the moon being closer than the clouds:

EpicNameBro mentioned in a video that he believes the "paleblood moon" is not the moon at all but rather a construction designed to mimic the moon, but provide what basically equates to a base for the Moon Presence (Great Ones) to manipulate/use humanity.

 

[Gbraga]

EpicNameBro mentioned in a video that he believes the "paleblood moon" is not the moon at all but rather a construction designed to mimic the moon, but provide what basically equates to a base for the Moon Presence (Great Ones) to manipulate/use humanity.

Hmmm, not a fan of that, to be quite honest. I think the actual moon being something the Great Ones use to amplify their power/influence is a lot more interesting than it just being something that looks like the moon.

Facts aren't always interesting, though, so if there's enough evidence to prove him right, nothing I can do.

 

[Karsticles]

Oh, those whispers. I thought you guys meant a constant, low whisper like the baby's cry.

Hey, question: how the hell can bell maidens summon Yharnamites and such? What exactly are bell maidens?

 

[KittenMaster]

EDIT: Actually I think the real reason I am not interested in lore guides is because I think I want to observe the game without outside observations affecting my thinking too much. Kind of a precautionary measure, I suppose.

Hey, question: how the hell can bell maidens summon Yharnamites and such? What exactly are bell maidens?

I think it is some kind of blood (assuming blood is involved) ritual. I noticed a lot of beings that come from Yar'ghul are into summoning and ritual practices to cast spells like that. Same thing with the Witches of Hemwick (which share an enemy type with the hags that want to gouge your eyes in Yar'ghul).