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Bloodborne Story and Lore Discussion Thread [Unmarked Spoilers]
- Thread starter GorillaJu
- Start date
KittenMaster
Member
Would you ever think to love me?
That works, though I don't like the use of humans specifically, goes against the theme of how unimportant we are to the universe, just any sentient being should suffice.
Humans seem to be the most likely to consume the cords (judging by the main character and Willem), and the most likely to make contact with the Great Ones (to the point where they do things like enter the dreams or nightmares and can no longer really be ignored), which is why I talked about them.
The great ones most likely don't value human interests like their places in society, their social/economical/political power, or accomplishments as obviously those would be superficial and beneath them, but they seem to use humans if it conveniences them.
FF Seraphim
Member
Well Oedon is called the Formless One so I doubt we will ever truly see him...
Manmademan
Member
The only thing I can think of that would indicate gender either way, is when you meet
impostor Iosefka, clearly pregnant with some kind of cosmic horror, going on about how awful yet wonderful it feels, and asks you if you've ever felt this. Obviously as a dude the answer is clearly "no, I've never been impregnated by cthulu" but its a "possibly" if your character is a woman.
She's not necessarily pregnant. She could just be talking about having her brain lined with eyes due to the Cord she's in possession of.
KittenMaster
Member
I think Arianna's dialogue changes if you are a female character, but that might be placebo. I was caught off guard by her talking about how it wasn't a night for a lady which I don't remember her mentioning as a male character.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
OniBarubary
Banned
Oedon is a Great One and actually a really really important one as well as he seems to be one of the ones that is most involved in human affairs. After all, he is being worshipped by the people of Yharnam, has his own structures and everything dedicated to his worship (and...uh, Tomb I guess). Almost all the information you get about him comes from Runes and that's because Runes are the words of the Great Ones, translations of their speech. This is particularly important for Oedon because he does not actually have a physical existence; he only exists as sound. Much of the words of the Great Ones and their meanings were probably derived from Oedon himself which might mean he facilitated a lot of the Church's experiments in trying to communicate with Great Ones (amusingly, Great Ones other than himself) though perhaps later as Caryll only made the runes after all this shit started going down.
As far as plot related stuff goes, as one can see from almost all the Runes that have his name in them, he has a direct relationship with the "oozing blood" which is the medium he works in.
This is open to a LOT of interpretation but one way people have been doing it is to think that the Oozing Blood means menstrual blood and that Oedon is seeking fertile women in order to use them as surrogates to create more Great Ones. Past that it could also mean that Oedon is capable of utilizing the blood that everybody keeps injecting themselves with in order to further his goals (which...is still impregnating). By control or otherwise...it's unknown.
The last line about Oedon's inadvertent worshippers seems to assume that people are worshipping him by accident and fulfilling his goals as they think the goals are their own. This is probably a huge reference to the friendly dude in the Church who asks you to bring people to him because it's safe. Oedon may be working through him unknowingly to pull any people who he could use as surrogates to the church so he can impregnate them, which is exactly what happens with Arianna. It's not confirmed, but it really only makes sense that Oedon impregnated her.
Going beyond just that, it's also entirely possible that Yharnam's Great One connection was also Oedon. Speculation on my part due to the fact that Mergo doesn't actually have a physical form and the only proof of it's existence in the game is it's crying. Makes sense if it's daddy is Oedon.
Oedon just seems to have the best batting average as far as getting surrogates goes.
He's basically the dude playing the game behind the scenes who achieves what he wants while you're conflicting between MP and Mergo.
Also, he seems to be the only male Great One which is odd.
As an aside, after some mulling stuff over and thinking about it, I still maintain that Mergo died in birth but due to being a Great One and what "death" may mean to them still existed as Oedon shows it's possible to exist without a body. The reason Mensis may have all gone "stillbirth" in their minds when trying to communicate with Mergo was that they were essentially communicating with a dead entity which might have been way beyond their understanding or ability to handle. Maybe Mergo was capable of existing in some form in the connection they made with him using the cord, or maybe their attempts to contact him brought him back into a form of existence in the Nightmare (I'm not sure about any of that, just word vomiting as it is PURE GUESSWORK). Yharnam having the bloody stomach when no longer pregnant the two times you see her makes me heavily believe Mergo was born dead or died shortly after. I don't think it was a clean or safe birth. It could have just been a violent birth due to him being a Great One but I don't really believe that to be the case.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
I dunno.
It just feels that way to me
Though I do find the Huntress to be more preferable aesthetically in terms of clothing style and thus more preferable to play overall.
Oh man, I remember I was quite shocked when I saw this. I knew Alfred was going to kill Annalise but... not like this.
Since then, Alfred makes me feel uneasy. He seemed to be a nice and friendly dude but he's a goddamn crazy psychopath.
Sephiroth_GR_
Member
I haven't kept up with the thread for quite a long time, but remember the lore note in Yahar'gul, Unseen Village?
"Behold! A Paleblood sky!"
I think it's a reference to the phrase in Bible: ""Behold a pale horse" whereas the pale horse is the horse of Death, much like the paleblood sky is MP's vessel or something.
"I looked, and there was a pale green horse. Its rider was named Death, and Hades accompanied him. They were given authority over a quarter of the earth, to kill with sword, famine, and plague, and by means of the beasts of the earth. (Revelation 6:8)"
I think Miyazaki was heavily inspired by it too, besides the obvious Lovecraft referrences.
"Behold! A Paleblood sky!"
I think it's a reference to the phrase in Bible: ""Behold a pale horse" whereas the pale horse is the horse of Death, much like the paleblood sky is MP's vessel or something.
"I looked, and there was a pale green horse. Its rider was named Death, and Hades accompanied him. They were given authority over a quarter of the earth, to kill with sword, famine, and plague, and by means of the beasts of the earth. (Revelation 6:8)"
I think Miyazaki was heavily inspired by it too, besides the obvious Lovecraft referrences.
Do you think they'd attack invaders as well?
FaintDeftone
Junior Member
I didn't notice it when I first started playing the game, but did anybody know if the Amygdala that was seen on the tower in the distance at the beginning of the game in Central Yharnam during the network test made it into the full game as well?
Since Amygdalas can't be seen until after you kill Rom or gain enough insight, I thought about this the other day and realized I never saw the Amygdala on the tower at the beginning like in the network test screenshots I saw. Is it still there or was it removed?
I thought the inclusion of that was a really cool ominous detail that gives the player a glimpse of the horror to come, but I didn't notice it when playing.
Since Amygdalas can't be seen until after you kill Rom or gain enough insight, I thought about this the other day and realized I never saw the Amygdala on the tower at the beginning like in the network test screenshots I saw. Is it still there or was it removed?
I thought the inclusion of that was a really cool ominous detail that gives the player a glimpse of the horror to come, but I didn't notice it when playing.
I searched everywhere in Central Yharnam, nope, removed. It was there just to tease us.
FaintDeftone
Junior Member
I searched everywhere in Central Yharnam, nope, removed. It was there just to tease us.
Yeah, that's a bummer but I understand why they removed it since it conflicts with the story.
The Unseen Village is easily my favorite area in the game (but one of the least fun) just due to how completely cool it looks and all of those Amygdalas hanging all over the buildings was a very cool moment to witness. That area alone makes Bloodborne an extremely memorable game so far.
I've been reading up a lot on the lore recently since I just finished the game over the weekend (finally) and find the game even more fascinating than Dark Souls, which I obsessed over after I finished it too. All of this makes me want to read some Lovecraft novels. I even read that whole 90 page analysis that hit the web recently.
So one of my biggest questions is who the hell is Vicar Amelia and Cleric Beast? Apparently the founders of the healing church and those who broke away from Byrgenweth were scholars and clerics. Could the Cleric Beast be one of them? Maybe Ludwig or Laurence?
Also, how does the Witches of Hemwick and Shadows of Yharnam fit into this story? What was their purposes in the grand scheme of things?
KittenMaster
Member
Vicar was the current head of the church but didn't found it (she is part of a line of vicars). Cleric Beast was probably a guy that was stationed at the bridge door that they sealed off.
Benzychenz
Member
So what's the deal with the fake Iosefka?
From what I understand, she's most likely a high ranking Choir member who's doing experiments and stuff on people to turn them into those blue kin things. She apparently succeeds in lining her brain with eyes near the end of the game (Probably with Willem's one third umbilical cord, which she drops when killed at that point of the game). Not sure how she got her hands on Willems cord, but it may have something to do with Yurie, the Last Scholar (the hostile NPC you find in Byrgenworth, right before Willem) since I think they both have similar weapons and Choir based attacks.
Melchiah
Member
I find the true ending interesting, as you were also treated at her clinic. Especially if you played as a female hunter, considering what happened to Arianna.
Not really sure what you're getting at here, care to explain a bit more?
Melchiah
Member
The way I thought, you might have been a carrier for a great one as well. That might be a bit far-fetched though.
Well, you start out in the real Iosefka's clinic (way before fake Iosefka even showed up), and we have no reason to think the real one was twisted or messed up in any way. The game doesn't really give us any reason to think she was anything other than a regular doctor, so I do think it's a bit of a stretch to connect her to the ending.
I also think the game makes it pretty clear that you're not carrying a great one in the true ending, but you become one yourself. I guess it can be seen as similar to what fake Iosefka started doing to herself with the cord, but yours was more complete since you managed to consume 3 of them.
You also mentioned Arianna being connected to Iosefka, but I think the game implies that Arianna was impregnated by Oedon.
Melchiah
Member
Yeah, it's probably far-fetched, but an interesting thought from my perspective. What I meant about Arianna was that she was also a carrier, and playing with a female hunter the ending reminded me of her.
bodyofanamerican
Member
Holy shit I just broke a few of the jars and objects on the 2nd floor of Byrgenwerth, and they're ALL FILLED WITH EYES. What a cool detail.
Haha, it really was a nice touch.
I was playing the game again this week, and got to Micolash.
Do we know who are the dead people in his arena? I saw at least one guy dressed as a prospector, on the floor of the starting corridors of his arena.
In fact, outside Mergo's loft, in the area where the Mother Brain was hanging, it was full of other dead guys, I think they are dressed like prospectors too, and they are stabbed with the Frenzy lances.
Any theory about why there'd be prosprectors attacking Micolash?
Where is the hanging bridge at 2:22?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=wjWOy6ioVHI#t=177
Do we know who are the dead people in his arena? I saw at least one guy dressed as a prospector, on the floor of the starting corridors of his arena.
In fact, outside Mergo's loft, in the area where the Mother Brain was hanging, it was full of other dead guys, I think they are dressed like prospectors too, and they are stabbed with the Frenzy lances.
Any theory about why there'd be prosprectors attacking Micolash?
Where is the hanging bridge at 2:22?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=wjWOy6ioVHI#t=177
theSlacker
Member
Various chalice dungeons.
KittenMaster
Member
Anybody know if the text on the Kirkhammer can be deciphered?
KittenMaster
Member
Apologies if the bump, but I think I have a new theory (more of an analysis, really) on the creation of the Hunter's Dream.
I was idly noting in my head the differences between the Hunter's Dream and the Hunter's Workshop, because it occurred to me that the Memory Altar is different than the table you find the umbilical cord on in the real world. The table in the real workshop has papers and documents scattered all over it, while the Hunter's Dream is an altar with candles arranged neatly and a silk cloth damp with blood draped over the front. While I don't think this has any real meaning on its own, it inspired me to see what else is different.
It didn't take me long to see the difference.
In the Hunter's Dream, there are many books laying around stacked onto tables and neat and unused. You can bump into them to make them fall. It's a nice collection.
In the Abandoned Workshop, there are books opened and papers scattered all over the place, including all over the table that you find the Umbilical Cord. It's haphazard and desperate, like you can see somebody trying to devour information from every single one and discarding them. Somebody needed those books... And I don't think it was Gherman.
Gherman in the dream clearly didn't care enough about the books to bother with him, while whoever else was with him in the Workshop in the real world did. I think it was Laurence.
We already know that "Laurence and his associates" beckoned the Moon Presence, but it is never made explicitly clear how they actually managed to do it.
Considering that every other umbilical cord had come from a woman birthing a great one child (though we never see Iosefka's), it can be assumed that the cord you find there was also a product of the experiments conducted there. I can also assume that a great one child may have been born there as well.
Possibly contradicting previous ideas I might've had, it makes me wonder if this is the sequence of events that had happened:
- Laurence beckons Moon Presence
- Moon Presence has somebody conceive a great one child
- Great One Child dies, leaves behind a cord
- Needing a surrogate, the cord is used to connect between the dimensions and take in Gherman into the created Hunter's Dream (this is assuming Gherman is supposed to be the surrogate, it's hard to be sure)
I was idly noting in my head the differences between the Hunter's Dream and the Hunter's Workshop, because it occurred to me that the Memory Altar is different than the table you find the umbilical cord on in the real world. The table in the real workshop has papers and documents scattered all over it, while the Hunter's Dream is an altar with candles arranged neatly and a silk cloth damp with blood draped over the front. While I don't think this has any real meaning on its own, it inspired me to see what else is different.
It didn't take me long to see the difference.
In the Hunter's Dream, there are many books laying around stacked onto tables and neat and unused. You can bump into them to make them fall. It's a nice collection.
In the Abandoned Workshop, there are books opened and papers scattered all over the place, including all over the table that you find the Umbilical Cord. It's haphazard and desperate, like you can see somebody trying to devour information from every single one and discarding them. Somebody needed those books... And I don't think it was Gherman.
Gherman in the dream clearly didn't care enough about the books to bother with him, while whoever else was with him in the Workshop in the real world did. I think it was Laurence.
We already know that "Laurence and his associates" beckoned the Moon Presence, but it is never made explicitly clear how they actually managed to do it.
Considering that every other umbilical cord had come from a woman birthing a great one child (though we never see Iosefka's), it can be assumed that the cord you find there was also a product of the experiments conducted there. I can also assume that a great one child may have been born there as well.
Possibly contradicting previous ideas I might've had, it makes me wonder if this is the sequence of events that had happened:
- Laurence beckons Moon Presence
- Moon Presence has somebody conceive a great one child
- Great One Child dies, leaves behind a cord
- Needing a surrogate, the cord is used to connect between the dimensions and take in Gherman into the created Hunter's Dream (this is assuming Gherman is supposed to be the surrogate, it's hard to be sure)
Last night I randomly activated the music box and instead of the usual melody, I heard a baby's giggle.
I was like WTF? I thought it was a bug at first.
I loaded my other charecters to check and all 3 of them played the usual melody of the music box. Only that one character had this strange giggle every time I activate it.
It turned out because that character has beaten Mergo's Wet Nurse.
The music's box melody is the same as the one played during Mergo's Wet Nurse boss fight and it's called "Lullaby for Mergo" in the soundtrack.
What can we conclude from this?
We all know that Mergo is formless and is most likely the voice of Oedon, a Great One who exists only in voice.
What if the music box is actually a tool that is used to communicate with Oedon? After beating the Wet Nurse, we hear the voice because Oedon or rather Mergo answers the call?
I was like WTF? I thought it was a bug at first.
I loaded my other charecters to check and all 3 of them played the usual melody of the music box. Only that one character had this strange giggle every time I activate it.
It turned out because that character has beaten Mergo's Wet Nurse.
The music's box melody is the same as the one played during Mergo's Wet Nurse boss fight and it's called "Lullaby for Mergo" in the soundtrack.
What can we conclude from this?
We all know that Mergo is formless and is most likely the voice of Oedon, a Great One who exists only in voice.
What if the music box is actually a tool that is used to communicate with Oedon? After beating the Wet Nurse, we hear the voice because Oedon or rather Mergo answers the call?
My take has been that Laurence and Gehrman got their umbilical cord from Queen Yharnam - hence the bleeding gash in her abdomen.
So after reading a lot on the lore of Bloodborne and being extremely impressed, I went back and read up on the lore and narrative for Demon Souls cause I don't even remember it at this point and there is no comparison, Bloodborne's lore and narrative is far better and far more complex.
I haven't gotten around to playing through Dark Souls 1 & 2, how do their stories and lore compare to Bloodborne?
I haven't gotten around to playing through Dark Souls 1 & 2, how do their stories and lore compare to Bloodborne?
Also I haven't found any good theories on the One Reborn and it's weird because to me it seemed immediately apparent having just fought an Amygdala boss in Nightmare Frontier (I like the theory that you don't get Nightmare Slain when you defeat that one because there's a bunch of Amygdala and it's just a generic low level Great One type), that One Reborn was a not finished developing Amygdala that a bunch of Menesis people were trying to ascend to become (hence all the Amygdala in the Unseen Village, because groups of Menesis would ascond into a single giant Amygdala) the height and the limbs of One Reborn seemed like almost a carbon copy of the Amygdala fight, so I thought the bell women tried to call down a newly formed Amygdala (like the other ones in the area) to fight you, but it was incomplete and halfway between a mass of human flesh and a true Amgydala.
And name-wise I was figuring One is short for "[A Great] One Reborn", hence they were trying to birth a new Amygdala into the world.
I dunno, just surprised I didn't find anyone else connecting the two when I googled around.
And name-wise I was figuring One is short for "[A Great] One Reborn", hence they were trying to birth a new Amygdala into the world.
I dunno, just surprised I didn't find anyone else connecting the two when I googled around.
KittenMaster
Member
Dark Souls 1 was more about learning about the history of everything and finding the lore itself than it was trying to make sense of the info you get like for Bloodborne.
I've only played Demon's Souls once, but it is the one game in the series where your character's goal and role is clearly spelled out, the bulk of the hidden lore would be per-location based stuff IIRC.
----
EDIT: Oh yeah, since I just posted in this thread again I want to point out that you can see a gigantic tree from Healing Worshop that is larger than all but the most massive buildings in Yharnam.
I've only played Demon's Souls once, but it is the one game in the series where your character's goal and role is clearly spelled out, the bulk of the hidden lore would be per-location based stuff IIRC.
Not sure I agree with this because you get a separate cord defeating Wet Nurse and Mergo dying. It seemed heavily implied that Yharnam was tied to Nightmare of Menesis.
----
EDIT: Oh yeah, since I just posted in this thread again I want to point out that you can see a gigantic tree from Healing Worshop that is larger than all but the most massive buildings in Yharnam.
Magic Mushroom
Member
Bumping this thread. Completed the game a few days ago (it's awesome) and I've been fascinated by its lore from the moment I played it. Cosmic horror is a concept that has always intruiged me and to see Miyazaki go full-on Lovecraft is more interesting to me than the dark fantasy of the Souls series (and why I feel Bloodborne shouldn't be seen as a Souls game in the first place).
I've only seen Vaati's excellent Gascoigne video, not his story explanation, it's next on my list.
I did hower read this entire analysis. Yes, all of it.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1k7ST7Ysc9I3s6zLXr-DOzWjoAtu6afOOCaU3ucCdBDk/mobilebasic
Might have been posted before, but I was absolutely fascinated by it. A tremendous read and for me, Bloodborne's story - open to interpretation - might very well be my favorite videogame story yet.
Currently playing New Game Plus with this knowledge in the back of my head. Can't wait to see where Vaati's interpretations differ and what mine will be after my playthrough.
I've only seen Vaati's excellent Gascoigne video, not his story explanation, it's next on my list.
I did hower read this entire analysis. Yes, all of it.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1k7ST7Ysc9I3s6zLXr-DOzWjoAtu6afOOCaU3ucCdBDk/mobilebasic
Might have been posted before, but I was absolutely fascinated by it. A tremendous read and for me, Bloodborne's story - open to interpretation - might very well be my favorite videogame story yet.
Currently playing New Game Plus with this knowledge in the back of my head. Can't wait to see where Vaati's interpretations differ and what mine will be after my playthrough.
Fancy Clown
Member
Yeah the story is incredible and I find it to be way more engaging than the Dark Souls lore personally. It feels more grounded, which makes the cosmic stuff feel all the more alien and horrifying.
So Ive been trying to piece together some of the Great Ones and their relationships to one another, particularly Mergo and Oedo .
So my theory is that Mergo is Oedon's child through the surrogate of Queen Yarhnam (they are both invisible ie formless, and the Queen is seen outside Mergo's chamber, crying as she knows her child is going to be killed). So I assume it is Oedon's surrogate's blood is responsible for the beast scourge because his runes seem to hint at this and I believe have beast marks on them? And Mergo's wet nurse is also invisible except for hairy beast arms.
So then was Rom granted eyes by Oedon? Because Rom has knowledge of Mergo and Queen Yarhnam, and he is protected by the Shadows which come from the Nightmare Mergo resides in. So it makes sense Mergo/Oedon would protect the creature that has knowledge of their wereabouts. But then Micolash says Kos/Kosm granted Rom eyes and I'm not sure if that refers to Cosmos as a being or as Great Ones in general. Ebrietas is the daughter of the Cosmos (but aren't all Great One children supposed to die? Does that imply that Hunters are the reason they die?).
Also I wonder if The One Reborn is a failed Mensis experiment in trying to create a Great One (replicating Formless Oedon being "The One") by calling forth some of the mensis members that were trapped in the Nightmare. Because outside Mergo's room there are more of those mensis mummies but they are already in the Nightmare, so either they are going to a nightmare within a nightmare, or that was the process by which they get out and ascend as a "great one", their tortured bodies fusing together as the one reborn, fueld by their proximity to Mergo and then sustained by the Bell Ringers spells once out of the Nightmare.
So Ive been trying to piece together some of the Great Ones and their relationships to one another, particularly Mergo and Oedo .
So my theory is that Mergo is Oedon's child through the surrogate of Queen Yarhnam (they are both invisible ie formless, and the Queen is seen outside Mergo's chamber, crying as she knows her child is going to be killed). So I assume it is Oedon's surrogate's blood is responsible for the beast scourge because his runes seem to hint at this and I believe have beast marks on them? And Mergo's wet nurse is also invisible except for hairy beast arms.
So then was Rom granted eyes by Oedon? Because Rom has knowledge of Mergo and Queen Yarhnam, and he is protected by the Shadows which come from the Nightmare Mergo resides in. So it makes sense Mergo/Oedon would protect the creature that has knowledge of their wereabouts. But then Micolash says Kos/Kosm granted Rom eyes and I'm not sure if that refers to Cosmos as a being or as Great Ones in general. Ebrietas is the daughter of the Cosmos (but aren't all Great One children supposed to die? Does that imply that Hunters are the reason they die?).
Also I wonder if The One Reborn is a failed Mensis experiment in trying to create a Great One (replicating Formless Oedon being "The One") by calling forth some of the mensis members that were trapped in the Nightmare. Because outside Mergo's room there are more of those mensis mummies but they are already in the Nightmare, so either they are going to a nightmare within a nightmare, or that was the process by which they get out and ascend as a "great one", their tortured bodies fusing together as the one reborn, fueld by their proximity to Mergo and then sustained by the Bell Ringers spells once out of the Nightmare.
Sup guys! I've finally came back to Bloodborne after suffering with The Witcher 3 ever since it came out, I was just not having fun, so I came back and it has been great. Though my goal was just to build a new PVP character, one thing leads to another and now there are some lore thingies stuck in my head, so it would be nice to have some discussion.
About Eileen and Djura no longer dreaming, but still remembering the dream and the doll. The theory I see the most is the "they chose the submit ending" theory, which never made too much sense to me because of this line from Gehrman:
"Good Hunter, you've done well, the night is near its end. Now I will show you mercy. You will die, forget the dream, and awake under the morning sun. You will be freed from this terrible Hunter's Dream."
Now, to support the "Djura took the submit ending" theory, we can just assume forget the dream is exclusive for us, assuming it also means forgetting all the eldritch horrors we've seen. After all, eldritch knowledge leads to insanity, so Gehrman was indeed showing us mercy, and usually he just frees people from the dream. And that doesn't necessarily mean that Djura and Eileen both completed the entire eldritch questline, Djura states the following:
"I no longer dream, but I was once a hunter, too.", implying that either every hunter (or at least Healing Church Hunter) was part of the dream once (which would make the "countless hunters visited this dream" more than just an expression), or it was common enough that every hunter had a chance of being part of the dream and knew about it, but the eldritch stuff is hidden from people, only the upper echelons of the healing church had access to such knowledge, and Djura definitely isn't one of them, since realizing beasts were once people was a huge breakthrough for him.
Djura also says "You have the whole night to dream. Make the best of it.", which allows us to infer that he just no longer dreams because the nightly hunt he was part of came to an end, and he was freed from it like many others, including Eileen. Djura renouncing his vows and pledging to protect Old Yharnam also explains why he didn't came back to the Hunter's Dream for the current hunt, he's no longer a hunter, therefore no longer able to dream.
What it doesn't explain, though, is why Eileen isn't back. You'd think that with the way things are in Yharnam right now, any help would be welcome, and Eileen would definitely be recruited back to the dream to help. We could assume one can only go through the dream once, but that's my problem with this theory, and why I can't be quite convinced by it, we just have to assume too much, and even assume some things that are outright said to us can't be used as evidence because we have to assume it's not universal.
Does anybody have a better theory, or even some info I missed that help validade one of the current theories I'm not so fond of? I just feel like I'll need a design works interview to really sort this one out.
About Eileen and Djura no longer dreaming, but still remembering the dream and the doll. The theory I see the most is the "they chose the submit ending" theory, which never made too much sense to me because of this line from Gehrman:
"Good Hunter, you've done well, the night is near its end. Now I will show you mercy. You will die, forget the dream, and awake under the morning sun. You will be freed from this terrible Hunter's Dream."
Now, to support the "Djura took the submit ending" theory, we can just assume forget the dream is exclusive for us, assuming it also means forgetting all the eldritch horrors we've seen. After all, eldritch knowledge leads to insanity, so Gehrman was indeed showing us mercy, and usually he just frees people from the dream. And that doesn't necessarily mean that Djura and Eileen both completed the entire eldritch questline, Djura states the following:
"I no longer dream, but I was once a hunter, too.", implying that either every hunter (or at least Healing Church Hunter) was part of the dream once (which would make the "countless hunters visited this dream" more than just an expression), or it was common enough that every hunter had a chance of being part of the dream and knew about it, but the eldritch stuff is hidden from people, only the upper echelons of the healing church had access to such knowledge, and Djura definitely isn't one of them, since realizing beasts were once people was a huge breakthrough for him.
Djura also says "You have the whole night to dream. Make the best of it.", which allows us to infer that he just no longer dreams because the nightly hunt he was part of came to an end, and he was freed from it like many others, including Eileen. Djura renouncing his vows and pledging to protect Old Yharnam also explains why he didn't came back to the Hunter's Dream for the current hunt, he's no longer a hunter, therefore no longer able to dream.
What it doesn't explain, though, is why Eileen isn't back. You'd think that with the way things are in Yharnam right now, any help would be welcome, and Eileen would definitely be recruited back to the dream to help. We could assume one can only go through the dream once, but that's my problem with this theory, and why I can't be quite convinced by it, we just have to assume too much, and even assume some things that are outright said to us can't be used as evidence because we have to assume it's not universal.
Does anybody have a better theory, or even some info I missed that help validade one of the current theories I'm not so fond of? I just feel like I'll need a design works interview to really sort this one out.
KittenMaster
Member
I actually can't find any dialogue on the web where Elieen or Djura directly reference the doll, but I see it all the time that they know about it so I can only assume that the wiki pages are incomplete.
Djura doesn't, but Eileen says "tell the little doll I said hello" when she kills you, IIRC.
KittenMaster
Member
I can only assume that somehow they stopped dreaming but weren't killed by Gherman. Otherwise it might actually be a plot hole from what I can tell.
The info we get from the game tells us that Djura and Eileen are aware of the dream and the doll. I think the simplest solution that uses the evidence from the game is that they were part of the same dream/hunter loop you're part of, but somehow got out. Either they succeeded, like you do, or they failed and were removed from the dream to make room for the next hunter. If they took the submit ending, I feel like it's possible that they could still remember things. I mentioned this before, but in real life when you wake up from a dream, usually you forget about it instantly, but sometimes you can remember it in bits and pieces (or even vividly, depending on the dream). Something similar could have happened with Eileen and Djura, or maybe they just forgot about (or never figured out) the stuff with the Great Ones. Also, as for why they weren't taken back into the dream for this new hunt, I've always seen it as being a single hunter at a time being a sort of "chosen one" for the MP.
Not yet! But he didn't give up on it, according to his last videos, he's just taking his time, part of the reason being that he doesn't want to ruin ongoing discussion with hard facts he learned from working closely with From Soft. So I'm expecting some really insightful stuff once it comes out.
Meanwhile, you could check his "From the Dark" series, it's easily the most interesting playthrough of Dark Souls I've ever seen. I played that game for quite a bit, and I'm still learning something almost every episode. I truly recommend it, not only for lore, but just for appreciating the game, really. Even looking at details in the environment that I never take the time to do so while playing myself.
This series is so good, man, can't wait for Dark Souls III, even though I'm still not tired of Bloodborne, Dark Souls and even Demon's Souls. Two more games in the series and I might actually be looking at a future where I don't really play anything else anymore.
About being one at a time, that's what I first imagined as well, up until yesterday, actually, but Djura saying "I no longer dream, but I was once a hunter, too" to me implies that it's more spread than that. Maybe not several people in that tiny place at once, but maybe each hunter has their own private Hunter's Dream, and they all go on at the same time, or something like that.
Though Eileen's "Tell the little doll I said hello" doesn't fit it if there are several different dolls for each hunter.
I'm inclined to believe this is more of a plot hole than a hard fact I'm unable to perceive, to be quite honest. Or maybe something was lost in translation, who knows, I don't think Miyazaki writes the story in english himself, right?
Eh, I don't think something left intentionally vague can be considered a plot hole. Also, Djura's quote could potentially imply something like that, but at the same time it doesn't really have to since it's vague enough to not mean anything important.
The Doll pretty clearly tells you in the dream that their have been hunters before you, and I think at some point she even says that the tombstones there are to mark those hunters. The fact that they're tombstones could mean that they were "killed" by Gehrman at the end of the hunt through the sunrise ending.
Oh, and you mentioned possibly missing some hard facts, but I think it's important to remember that the game's story has some hard facts, but also a lot of stuff that isn't really explained explicitly (The Moon Presence and the exact role of the player character come to mind). The best we can do is come up with explanations that are consistent and based on the few hard facts we do have, while trying to keep theories that don't rely on the hard facts to a minimum. I think that's what makes it so fun (since we have the framework to actually piece together a coherent and interesting story), but it also makes it easy to get kinda carried away (since it's easy to go overboard filling in all the blanks).
KittenMaster
Member
I considered the possibility of it being a plot hole because what Gherman says contradicts what actually happened to Djura and Elieen.
The main difference I can think of that would differentiate the player hunter and the other two would be that the player hunter has ancient blood echoes flowing through him (like how the Dark Souls chosen undead was a descendant of the furtive pygmy) but even then I think it's technically the Hunter's Mark that allows him/her to revive upon death and not the ancient echoes.
The main difference I can think of that would differentiate the player hunter and the other two would be that the player hunter has ancient blood echoes flowing through him (like how the Dark Souls chosen undead was a descendant of the furtive pygmy) but even then I think it's technically the Hunter's Mark that allows him/her to revive upon death and not the ancient echoes.
How so?
KittenMaster
Member
Gherman tells you that you will lose your memories when you escape the dream, but Elieen seems to remember the Doll, contradicting that. Djura also seems aware of the existence of the dream.