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[Gbraga]

You cant deny the similarities with Mephistopheles and the blood contract however. Keep in mind Faust came before Lovecraft and influenced much of what he created as well. I dont think its a stretch whatsoever to believe From took some inspiration from that source as well.

Sure, but it's more of a shared themes thing than direct influence, imo. A blood contract is as generic as it can get. I don't think anyone was like "woah, a blood contract, Miyazaki sure is a genius". It's just whatever, just fits the whole blood theme, and it's a contract. I'd like to think Miyazaki is a good enough writer to come up with generic stuff on his own.

Also the character doesnt necessarily "seek out" knowledge but through his actions its what he inevitably does, and is required to do to reach out to the great ones.

But this is Lovecraft, this is Cosmic Horror. The protagonist aquires eldritch knowledge either by investigating out of his own will or stumbling upon it, and eldritch knowledge leads to madness. You can't have a lovecraftian cosmic horror game without it.

 

[DoubleTake]

Sure, but it's more of a shared themes thing than direct influence, imo. A blood contract is as generic as it can get. I don't think anyone was like "woah, a blood contract, Miyazaki sure is a genius". It's just whatever, just fits the whole blood theme, and it's a contract. I'd like to think Miyazaki is a good enough writer to come up with generic stuff on his own.



But this is Lovecraft, this is Cosmic Horror. The protagonist aquires eldritch knowledge either by investigating out of his own will or stumbling upon it, and eldritch knowledge leads to madness. You can't have a lovecraftian cosmic horror game without it.

I must have worded it incorrectly shared themes is more what I meant by "inspired by". Of course a blood contract isnt the most original device but when coupled with all the other similiraties its easy to see where From got a few of their re-purposed ideas...from.

No doubt Miyazaki is a great writer but even throughout the series there have been distinct similarities with other works. I think this is just the same.

 

[KittenMaster]

People forget that they come up with lore to justify game mechanics. The whole "time is distorted" and whatnot business in Dark Souls was mostly to legitimize multiplayer aspects as canon. I took the blood contract as an excuse to go to a character creation screen.

 

[Gbraga]

EDIT: New video by Vaati, about Djura. Still watching it, might be very relevant to our recent discussion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxZ2b6BBrJI

Say what you want about him, you can't deny his production is immaculate.

I must have worded it incorrectly shared themes is more what I meant by "inspired by". Of course a blood contract isnt the most original device but when coupled with all the other similiraties its easy to see where From got a few of their re-purposed ideas...from.

No doubt Miyazaki is a great writer but even throughout the series there have been distinct similarities with other works. I think this is just the same.

Oh, alright. Sure, I can go with that.

It's just that when I think of Soulsborne inspirations, I think of stuff just taken straight out of other places, you know? Like they have no shame in admitting how much they take stuff out of Berserk, that's what I think this isn't a case of.

 

[Orochinagis]

I've never interpreted it as mocking, personally. She basically says that it's natural for a creation to love its creator, but not necessarily the other way around, she puts you in the position of god to show that the fact that your kind created her makes no difference in how you feel about her, which is consistent with the whole lovecraftian theme of mankind being somewhat insignificant to those greater beigns they worship. In this case, the Great Ones. They're revered as gods by the Healing Church, but they don't really give a shit about them.

Spoiler

I do love my doll waifu though.

Exactly, thats ironic part of the religion in Yharman.

People forget that they come up with lore to justify game mechanics. The whole "time is distorted" and whatnot business in Dark Souls was mostly to legitimize multiplayer aspects as canon. I took the blood contract as an excuse to go to a character creation screen.

Mmmm no, Dark Souls 1 is the one where it actually tells you are not the only player trying to link the fire again, the crestfallen warrior tells you, you are another undead arriving and more will follow, others npcs tells you even if you fail another player will take your place. You can hear them advancing and if you look on the lordvessel chamber the remaining subclasses chalices waiting to be used in case you fail.

In Dark Souls 2 you actually dont remember who you are but the firekeepers made you remember yet the world only tells you you are the only one this time, in BB is quite different since you are required to put your name to make a contract for the Hunter abilities, you can see other people didnt make it and got eaten by the werewolve

 

[KittenMaster]

Mmmm no, Dark Souls 1 is the one where it actually tells you are not the only player trying to link the fire again, the crestfallen warrior tells you, you are another undead arriving and more will follow, others npcs tells you even if you fail another player will take your place. You can hear them advancing and if you look on the lordvessel chamber the remaining subclasses chalices waiting to be used in case you fail.

I'm talking about when Solaire explains multiplayer coop.

 

[Orochinagis]

I'm talking about when Solaire explains multiplayer coop.

He explains that too

 

[Gbraga]

I'm sorry for bumping the thread with such a dumb question, but how long would it take for a body to get to the state Micolash's body is when we find him in Yahar'gul?

And do we know why there are bodies with the Mensis Cage inside the nightmare? Or are all deaths in the nightmare (that causes the person to wake up) supposed to leave a body, and Micolash's doesn't just because he's a boss fight and bosses disappear?

 

[Manu]

I'm sorry for bumping the thread with such a dumb question, but how long would it take for a body to get to the state Micolash's body is when we find him in Yahar'gul?

And do we know why there are bodies with the Mensis Cage inside the nightmare? Or are all deaths in the nightmare (that causes the person to wake up) supposed to leave a body, and Micolash's doesn't just because he's a boss fight and bosses disappear?

Micolash's body appears to be mummified when you find him, so it's hard to determine for how long exactly he's been there, since it's hard for a body to become mummified by natural processes. Could be months, could be decades.

As for your second question, I have no idea.

 

[Gbraga]

Micolash's body appears to be mummified when you find him, so it's hard to determine for how long exactly he's been there, since it's hard for a body to become mummified by natural processes. Could be months, could be decades.

As for your second question, I have no idea.

Oh, I see. Either way, it's very unlikely that it was less than at least a month, right?

Because that would still make it for a really, really long night of the hunt, I find it curious that no one mentioned how long it has been.

I mean, when you see the effect it had in the city, it's quite obvious that it's been going for quite some time, way more than the average, but you'd think they'd comment on a night that has been going on for a month already.

Unless it's something like 30 Days of Night and they're used to going days without seeing the sunlight whenever a nightly hunt is going on, but you'd think this one was special when compared to every other, since it's the mensis ritual that is beckoning the moon, right? You need to end Mergo so the night won't carry on forever, you'd think that's a unique event, and there's not always a great one they had to kill to end the night of the hunt.

I just thought about that on this last playthrough. It's not a big deal, you can just easily overlook the fact that they don't comment on how long it has been, but I'm just wondering if I'm missing some information that can actually explain this.

 

[Sheriff_Battlesnake]

I've been reading through the thread after hours of wiki diving followed by reading that 90 page analysis - The Paleblood Hunt. I am fascinated! And have thus started my Chalice dive at level 77.

Back on page 8 someone mentioned something about Rom looking like she was made from a chunk of earth, specifically from the Hunter's Dream judging by the flowers. Does this hold any weight? Could the Moon Presence be who elevated Rom to Great One status?

Also, do you think Kos or Kosm is an actually entity or is it just Micholash realizing that The Great Ones are alien rather than gods or something?

 

[Fancy Clown]

So how come you find a handwritten note in Hypogeon Gaol saying "nightmarish rituals require newborn. Find one and silence its harrowing cries"? That's the opposite of what School of Mensis wants, but it's not a messenger note from (I assume) the Moon Presence like the one right outside your cell telling about surreptitious rituals to beckon the moon. So who left the note? Was it one of the church hunters/choir that seemingly infiltrated the unseen village? Does the choir not want Micolash to summon a great one or whatever he's trying to do, or do they just not want him to beckon the moon presence because that's what causes beast outbreaks?

Of all the questions I have from this game, I am the most interested and perplexed by everything related to the School of Mensis and their Nightmare realm and ritual.

Also, do you think Kos or Kosm is an actually entity or is it just Micholash realizing that The Great Ones are alien rather than gods or something?

I'm inclined to think the latter. All the cosmos notes and revelations you find are connected to The Choir, and it appears the school of Mensis and the choir might have qualms with one another so it makes sense he wouldn't know what they found with their experiments in the orphanage. He probably just heard vague rumors about Kos or Kosm and assumed it was a being, when in actuality it refers to the cosmos, where all the great ones are from.

 

[Gbraga]

So how come you find a handwritten note in Hypogeon Gaol saying "nightmarish rituals require newborn. Find one and silence its harrowing cries"? That's the opposite of what School of Mensis wants, but it's not a messenger note from (I assume) the Moon Presence like the one right outside your cell telling about surreptitious rituals to beckon the moon. So who left the note? Was it one of the church hunters/choir that seemingly infiltrated the unseen village? Does the choir not want Micolash to summon a great one or whatever he's trying to do, or do they just not want him to beckon the moon presence because that's what causes beast outbreaks?

Of all the questions I have from this game, I am the most interested and perplexed by everything related to the School of Mensis and their Nightmare realm and ritual.

In my opinion, this is just a note directed to the player, not necessarily written by a particular faction of the game, even though it could very well be. It's giving you further details on your mission. Sure, you can get that message way before you uncover the ritual secret after killing Rom, but Miyazaki himself said the "Behold! A Paleblood sky!" note was left there in Hypogean Gaol just to tease the players, so we can make sense of it later in our second visit to Yahar'gul.

"Nightmarish rituals crave a newborn. Find one, and silence its harrowing cry" is the message, IIRC, and they got audience with Mergo through the nightmare using an umbilical cord, I believe that's the ritual to beckon the moon, not bringing The Xbox One Reborn to life (I really wish we had more lore on that boss).

 

[Orochinagis]

So how come you find a handwritten note in Hypogeon Gaol saying "nightmarish rituals require newborn. Find one and silence its harrowing cries"? That's the opposite of what School of Mensis wants, but it's not a messenger note from (I assume) the Moon Presence like the one right outside your cell telling about surreptitious rituals to beckon the moon. So who left the note? Was it one of the church hunters/choir that seemingly infiltrated the unseen village? Does the choir not want Micolash to summon a great one or whatever he's trying to do, or do they just not want him to beckon the moon presence because that's what causes beast outbreaks?

Of all the questions I have from this game, I am the most interested and perplexed by everything related to the School of Mensis and their Nightmare realm and ritual.

Like Braga said it could be directed to the Hunter or Adella who runaway dropped it. Due the lack of straight story telling, thats how the game can handle direct instruction of the game which is kinda confusing since most of the story is new and you dont have any idea what it means since there is not back story and the plot holes are quite big to assemble in that part of the game.

Lets say it was a person, there is another note on the stairs so following the path you can see more Healing Church hunters praying to the closed main door leading to mensis teleporter.

There are not notes following the Cathedral ward path. So far the Behold the pale moon is just a spot where you have to look at the moon so is more a view spot and makes you have an idea of the puzzle you will have to figure out later.

So far Adella is the only person sane enough who could probably wrote thoses note aside from the eye collector Witches and Micolash. Who later on instructed the Yahaurl people to start doing their job kidnapping people and closed the door, letting his fellow church member to die.

 

[Gbraga]

Thinking back, I remember that my first thought the first time I got there was that maybe they were trying to create an artificial Great One, and they needed a human baby for this.

Not exactly the case, but considerably relevant for how early into the game I was, haha.

 

[Sheriff_Battlesnake]

"Nightmarish rituals crave a newborn. Find one, and silence its harrowing cry" is the message, IIRC, and they got audience with Mergo through the nightmare using an umbilical cord, I believe that's the ritual to beckon the moon, not bringing The Xbox One Reborn to life (I really wish we had more lore on that boss).

I am of the mind that Micolash kidnapped and drained people in the hunt for a great one before coming the the revelation that he needed transcendent sight. So The One Reborn seems like his answer to Rom. An attempt at creating a medium.

 

[Fancy Clown]

In my opinion, this is just a note directed to the player, not necessarily written by a particular faction of the game, even though it could very well be. It's giving you further details on your mission. Sure, you can get that message way before you uncover the ritual secret after killing Rom, but Miyazaki himself said the "Behold! A Paleblood sky!" note was left there in Hypogean Gaol just to tease the players, so we can make sense of it later in our second visit to Yahar'gul.

"Nightmarish rituals crave a newborn. Find one, and silence its harrowing cry" is the message, IIRC, and they got audience with Mergo through the nightmare using an umbilical cord, I believe that's the ritual to beckon the moon, not bringing The Xbox One Reborn to life (I really wish we had more lore on that boss).

But if the message is just for the player, why not have it be a note from the messangers like the first one in the hypogeon gaol? This silence its cries not is a deliberately handwritten note, not a message from the "will of the ancients". So I don't think it was there for the player in the context of the narrative, but likely someone else went to the Unseen Village before you with that as instruction and dropped it on the way. Maybe the choir member who you fight in the Nightmare?

I too wish we had more info on the one reborn. My current thinking is that they sacrificed all the kidnapped people in order to create a physical vessel for Oedon to enter the world (since Oedon may be "dead" like Mergo. He exists only in voice, and even has a tomb so he "died" once before. Unless the tomb is just named in honor of him and church people are buried there...).

 

[Ghost Slayer]

because GOTY thread becomes "How to name GOTY edition" battlefield so i think i should post this here.
Taken from ps blog

In addition to new environments, you’ll also gain access to new outfits and weapons to bolster your beast-battling arsenal, including a fearsome new ranged weapon called Simon’s Bowblade. On top of this, The Old Hunters also offers players the ability to go native and transform into terrifying beasts

new thread worthy?

 

[piccio_ssl]

because GOTY thread becomes "How to name GOTY edition" battlefield so i think i should post this here.
Taken from ps blog


new thread worthy?

my hype right now

 

[Gbraga]

I am of the mind that Micolash kidnapped and drained people in the hunt for a great one before coming the the revelation that he needed transcendent sight. So The One Reborn seems like his answer to Rom. An attempt at creating a medium.

I've always thought of The One Reborn as a vessel for either Oedon or Mergo, but the kidnapping part seems on point. I believe it was someone in this thread that brought to my attention the fact that Hail the Nightmare no longer playing on your second visit do Yahar'gul most likely meant that the petrified people everywhere in the city were the ones chanting it before, and they got sacrificed in order to create The Xbox One Reborn. Pretty amazing detail.

But if the message is just for the player, why not have it be a note from the messangers like the first one in the hypogeon gaol? This silence its cries not is a deliberately handwritten note, not a message from the "will of the ancients". So I don't think it was there for the player in the context of the narrative, but likely someone else went to the Unseen Village before you with that as instruction and dropped it on the way. Maybe the choir member who you fight in the Nightmare?

I too wish we had more info on the one reborn. My current thinking is that they sacrificed all the kidnapped people in order to create a physical vessel for Oedon to enter the world (since Oedon may be "dead" like Mergo. He exists only in voice, and even has a tomb so he "died" once before. Unless the tomb is just named in honor of him and church people are buried there...).

Yep, not only he's possibly dead (though death obviously doesn't work for him the same way it does for us, if that's the case), but he's formless, giving him a form for direct contact seems to make sense to me.

About the note, when I mean the player, I don't mean the player in the context of the narrative, as in the player character, just we. Like most other lore notes, it is implied that someone must have written it, but it doesn't have any reason to be written aside from informing the player. Especially since it's written as an order, not just talking about the rituals, but telling you to end it.

because GOTY thread becomes "How to name GOTY edition" battlefield so i think i should post this here.
Taken from ps blog


new thread worthy?

Very excited for this, but I also hope they don't make it mandatory. I want my pellets to still work as just a broken as shit powerup.

 

[Sheriff_Battlesnake]

I've always thought of The One Reborn as a vessel for either Oedon or Mergo, but the kidnapping part seems on point. I believe it was someone in this thread that brought to my attention the fact that Hail the Nightmare no longer playing on your second visit do Yahar'gul most likely meant that the petrified people everywhere in the city were the ones chanting it before, and they got sacrificed in order to create The Xbox One Reborn. Pretty amazing detail.

I really like that idea! But I'm not entirely sure how that was pieced together besides it just being really rad. Is there any context to the theory????

 

[Gbraga]

I really like that idea! But I'm not entirely sure how that was pieced together besides it just being really rad. Is there any context to the theory????

You mean the song one? The One Reborn being made in a mass sacrifice ritual was confirmed in an interview with the composer of the boss theme, IIRC, then you just piece it together with the song no longer playing and the petrified bodied desperately trying to climb the walls, and it just makes a lot of sense that the chants were conducted by the people involved in the ritual in some way, who were later sacrificed.

The song title also says it all, Hail the Nightmare, it doesn't make too much sense that early into the game, but when you go back, finish the level and get into the Nightmare of Mensis, what it references becomes much clearer.

It doesn't have too much in-game stuff to support it, but the way it fits is just great, and besides, unlike some other theories entirely based on speculation, it doesn't really change anything in the story. If the reason the song stopped was just because it's a different level rather than the people chanting being sacrificed, it really doesn't matter at all, the story is the same. So I'm ok with allowing myself to treat it as my head canon

EDIT: But of course, that's just me speculating on the reason behind someone else's speculation, so, to be quite honest: I don't know, I just read it and thought it was cool.

 

[Sheriff_Battlesnake]

You mean the song one? The One Reborn being made in a mass sacrifice ritual was confirmed in an interview with the composer of the boss theme, IIRC, then you just piece it together with the song no longer playing and the petrified bodied desperately trying to climb the walls, and it just makes a lot of sense that the chants were conducted by the people involved in the ritual in some way, who were later sacrificed.

The song title also says it all, Hail the Nightmare, it doesn't make too much sense that early into the game, but when you go back, finish the level and get into the Nightmare of Mensis, what it references becomes much clearer.

It doesn't have too much in-game stuff to support it, but the way it fits is just great, and besides, unlike some other theories entirely based on speculation, it doesn't really change anything in the story. If the reason the song stopped was just because it's a different level rather than the people chanting being sacrificed, it really doesn't matter at all, the story is the same. So I'm ok with allowing myself to treat it as my head canon

EDIT: But of course, that's just me speculating on the reason behind someone else's speculation, so, to be quite honest: I don't know, I just read it and thought it was cool.

I meant him as a vessel but this is just as good. I, too, am a fan of head canon since I'm sure there will be much left unconfirmed.

 

[Gbraga]

I meant him as a vessel but this is just as good. I, too, am a fan of head canon since I'm sure there will be much left unconfirmed.

The One Reborn being a vessel for either Oedon or Mergo is my conclusion to just trying to analyse its name and role in the world. The trophy description doesn't refer to it as a Great One, when even Rom is, but it's also clearly not a beast. It's beckoned in a ritual, confirmed to be a mass sacrifice, and is called The One Reborn. The name tells us both that it's an important entity (The One), and also that it's dead (in order to be Reborn). I assume it's a failed experience to create a vessel for a dead/formless Great One to return, and the only ones we know that fit the criteria are Oedon and Mergo, Oedon for even having a Tomb (though it could be argued it's just a regular tomb named after Oedon), and Mergo for not only possibly being the stillbirth of Yharnam, but also the Great One they were trying to have audience with through the Mensis Ritual.

The reasons I think it's a failed experiment are it being apparently mindless, weak and the trophy description itself. It also only gives you a ritual material for defeating him, instead of something like Kin Coldblood.

It's a boss we don't know much about, unfortunately, so I have to rely too much on baseless speculation, which is something I'm not very fond of. I wish there was more stuff available. Even Paarl feels much more concrete to me, even if perhaps way too simple of a story.

I'd love to see Archibald, Izzy and maybe even Paarl in the DLC, though I doubt that has any chance of happening. Miyazaki seems more interesting in leaving ambiguous stuff ambiguous forever, so I also don't think ENB will get his wish of seeing some open plotlines resolved in Dark Souls III.

 

[Fancy Clown]

About the note, when I mean the player, I don't mean the player in the context of the narrative, as in the player character, just we. Like most other lore notes, it is implied that someone must have written it, but it doesn't have any reason to be written aside from informing the player. Especially since it's written as an order, not just talking about the rituals, but telling you to end it.

Gotcha. I still think that because it's a handwritten note there is narrative context besides just informing the player. Otherwise why not just make it a messenger note since that's a total free pass for making notes sole context be for informing the player?

I someone else in the narrative went to Yahargul with the directive of slaying the nightmare newborn, and either dropped it or was killed. And my most likely guess is a choir or healing church hunter since I think there's a bit of a schism between Mensis and the Church.

 

[Metalingus5150]

Is no one gonna bring up that Gbraga said Xbox One Reborn? lol

 

[Gbraga]

Gotcha. I still think that because it's a handwritten note there is narrative context besides just informing the player. Otherwise why not just make it a messenger note since that's a total free pass for making notes sole context be for informing the player?

I someone else in the narrative went to Yahargul with the directive of slaying the nightmare newborn, and either dropped it or was killed. And my most likely guess is a choir or healing church hunter since I think there's a bit of a schism between Mensis and the Church.

Makes sense. There's most definitely bad blood between the Choir and Mensis, and it is possible that maybe the School of Mensis was just too crazy, even by Healing Church standards. Condemning Yharnam to an endless night of the hunt is a fucked up thing to do, especially after what happened to what now is called Old Yharnam. I'm guessing even the Church wouldn't want to be forced to burn the entire damn city.

Now that I think about it, though, it probably wouldn't be really endless, right? They burned Old Yharnam to the ground, and life seemed to go on after this, some Nights of the Hunt every now and then, but nothing as terrible as what happened to Old Yharnam, at least until the current night, which again features the red moon shitting things up.

Is no one gonna bring up that Gbraga said Xbox One Reborn? lol

I take no credit, OnlyAfro made that joke. I just can't stop referring to the boss as that after I saw it.

 

[Fancy Clown]

Makes sense. There's most definitely bad blood between the Choir and Mensis, and it is possible that maybe the School of Mensis was just too crazy, even by Healing Church standards. Condemning Yharnam to an endless night of the hunt is a fucked up thing to do, especially after what happened to what now is called Old Yharnam. I'm guessing even the Church wouldn't want to be forced to burn the entire damn city.

Now that I think about it, though, it probably wouldn't be really endless, right? They burned Old Yharnam to the ground, and life seemed to go on after this, some Nights of the Hunt every now and then, but nothing as terrible as what happened to Old Yharnam, at least until the current night, which again features the red moon shitting things up.

I think it's entirely possible the night could never end, since Mensis never did its ritual before as far as we know so who knows what would happen if Mergo/Oedon got whatever they were looking for. Although it could just be propaganda from Moon Presence/whoever to get you to kill Mergo.

Okay, more confusion regarding Mensis and their ritual. Why are they beckoning the moon? They seem invested in bringing power to Mergo/Oedon and Moon Presence wants nothing more than to have us kill Mergo and stop Mensis. So why beckon something that wants to put a stop to them? Do they just not know what beckoning the moon will bring? They're just like "hey if we have this meeting with this baby great one, that other great one in the sky comes closer and beasts pop up everywhere. That's probably good for us, right??".

 

[Gbraga]

I think it's entirely possible the night could never end, since Mensis never did its ritual before as far as we know so who knows what would happen if Mergo/Oedon got whatever they were looking for. Although it could just be propaganda from Moon Presence/whoever to get you to kill Mergo.

Okay, more confusion regarding Mensis and their ritual. Why are they beckoning the moon? They seem invested in bringing power to Mergo/Oedon and Moon Presence wants nothing more than to have us kill Mergo and stop Mensis. So why beckon something that wants to put a stop to them? Do they just not know what beckoning the moon will bring? They're just like "hey if we have this meeting with this baby great one, that other great one in the sky comes closer and beasts pop up everywhere. That's probably good for us, right??".

I don't think "beckon the moon" refers to the moon presence. I feel like moon presence is just a title they gave to the Great One that came when they first did the ritual to beckon the moon, in the workshop, which ended up conceiving the Hunter's Dream.

They beckon the moon in a ritual to have audience with the Great Ones. It seems to me that while perhaps the Hunter's Dream was an unintended side-effect, in Mensis they were prepared for this, which is why Micolash was willingly the host, while Gehrman hates being one.

The game supports the moon presence being just "a moon presence" rather than the moon itself by always referring to it in lowercase letters, aside from the boss name during the fight, it's always "moon presence", and in the Lecture Building lore note, it's even "the nameless moon presence".

Every time they beckon the moon, a Great One answers, a nightmare is formed and the red moon hangs low. Beckoning "The Moon Presence" is most likely what brought the red moon to Old Yharnam, and beckoning Mergo is responsible for the current Paleblood sky.

Which is why I personally like to think of Paleblood as the ritual itself, rather than just "it can refer to both the moon presence and the sky after Rom". Treating the ritual itself as Paleblood, it works with both interpretations, but at the same time serves the game better than just saying "Paleblood can mean two things". Also works with "Seek Paleblood to transcend the hunt" as your primary objective, so, in other words, seek the mensis ritual so the night can be over.

Treating Paleblood as a name to the nameless (heh) moon presence can also explain the handwritten scrawl through the "three third cords" lore note, but being the ritual fits both the moon presence and the sky after Rom, tying both together with the term.

 

[PolishQ]

I don't think "beckon the moon" refers to the moon presence. I feel like moon presence is just a title they gave to the Great One that came when they first did the ritual to beckon the moon, in the workshop, which ended up conceiving the Hunter's Dream.

They beckon the moon in a ritual to have audience with the Great Ones. It seems to me that while perhaps the Hunter's Dream was an unintended side-effect, in Mensis they were prepared for this, which is why Micolash was willingly the host, while Gehrman hates being one.

The game supports the moon presence being just "a moon presence" rather than the moon itself by always referring to it in lowercase letters, aside from the boss name during the fight, it's always "moon presence", and in the Lecture Building lore note, it's even "the nameless moon presence".

Every time they beckon the moon, a Great One answers, a nightmare is formed and the red moon hangs low. Beckoning "The Moon Presence" is most likely what brought the red moon to Old Yharnam, and beckoning Mergo is responsible for the current Paleblood sky.

Which is why I personally like to think of Paleblood as the ritual itself, rather than just "it can refer to both the moon presence and the sky after Rom". Treating the ritual itself as Paleblood, it works with both interpretations, but at the same time serves the game better than just saying "Paleblood can mean two things". Also works with "Seek Paleblood to transcend the hunt" as your primary objective, so, in other words, seek the mensis ritual so the night can be over.

Treating Paleblood as a name to the nameless (heh) moon presence can also explain the handwritten scrawl through the "three third cords" lore note, but being the ritual fits both the moon presence and the sky after Rom, tying both together with the term.

The only issue I take with this is that halting the Mensis ritual is not sufficient to "transcend the hunt". If Mergo's Wet Nurse is slain and the player chooses to submit to Gehrman, the night has ended but the hunt will eventually continue. To fully transcend the hunt, the Moon Presence must be slain.

 

[Gbraga]

The only issue I take with this is that halting the Mensis ritual is not sufficient to "transcend the hunt". If Mergo's Wet Nurse is slain and the player chooses to submit to Gehrman, the night has ended but the hunt will eventually continue. To fully transcend the hunt, the Moon Presence must be slain.

I agree with you on this, and it also gave me some trouble at first, but that's only if we interpret transcending the hunt as something for us personally to do. If we're the ones who are supposed to transcend the hunt, then yes, defeating the moon presence is the only way to actually do so, and not because the hunt itself ends, but because, by becoming a legitimate Great One, we are now above all this.

On the other hand, if we interpret transcending the hunt as something for Yharnam itself, rather than the player character specifically, it can be as simple as just put an end to the current night, that will go on forever if no one can force it to stop.

It's less exciting, but also has less problems with it. For example, consuming three cords is not the only way to actually find the moon presence, it's just the only way to resist it, so just seeking Paleblood isn't enough. Or even worse, "The nameless moon presence beckoned by Laurence and his associates. Paleblood" is one single lore note. The same note that says it's nameless tells you its name? Doesn't make much sense.

Miyazaki says in the guide interview that "Paleblood" can refer both to the sky after Rom, and then "Seek Paleblood" would mean finding and putting a stop to the Mensis Ritual, and also to the moon presence, and he uses the lore notes in the Lecture Building as reference. If Paleblood is the ritual to beckon the moon, that's something both of the possible interpretations he listed have in common, both Mergo and the moon presence were beckoned through a ritual using a third cord that beckoned the red moon.

All of that being said, Miyazaki did say "another name to the being that comes from the moon under certain circunstances", so this is just me trying to put the game's own logic above even the creator's intention to tie everything together. Either of the possible interpretations for Paleblood that the man himself lists leaves holes that are only solved by the other, so it being the ritual involved in both of them can fill those holes.

Treating the ritual as Paleblood still has some major holes, of course, but I feel like it works better with the game than each of the two other individiual interpretations.

EDIT: This took me a long time to write because I was interrupted a couple of times, so I'm sorry if it doesn't make too much sense or doesn't flow very well.

 

[Metalingus5150]

I honestly think Paleblood refers to the moon presence. There was a note somewhere that said as such.

 

[Gbraga]

I honestly think Paleblood refers to the moon presence. There was a note somewhere that said as such.

It does, no questions about it.

 

[Orochinagis]

Thinking back, I remember that my first thought the first time I got there was that maybe they were trying to create an artificial Great One, and they needed a human baby for this.

Not exactly the case, but considerably relevant for how early into the game I was, haha.

I think it wasnt explained how the females can get pregnant on the Hunting night, so far all females suddenly got pregnant when the great ones broke the barrier between yharman world and theirs, except bad luck Adella.

At least its not like demon souls who had rapists

But if the message is just for the player, why not have it be a note from the messangers like the first one in the hypogeon gaol? This silence its cries not is a deliberately handwritten note, not a message from the "will of the ancients". So I don't think it was there for the player in the context of the narrative, but likely someone else went to the Unseen Village before you with that as instruction and dropped it on the way. Maybe the choir member who you fight in the Nightmare?

I too wish we had more info on the one reborn. My current thinking is that they sacrificed all the kidnapped people in order to create a physical vessel for Oedon to enter the world (since Oedon may be "dead" like Mergo. He exists only in voice, and even has a tomb so he "died" once before. Unless the tomb is just named in honor of him and church people are buried there...).

Is the same company that still cant animate NPC lips or add them proper movement on the story at all maybe adding those note to the messenger woud be more confusing than just a random thing on the floor.

Maybe we need bigger Insight to see Oedon since there is little interaction with him.

 

[Gbraga]

It's not really an explanation, but they do say "When the red moon hangs low, the line between man and beast is blurred. And when the Great Ones descend, a womb will be blessed with child". It's in Byrgenwerth, I think?

Maybe we need bigger Insight to see Oedon since there is little interaction with him.

Another thing someone said here that I thought was really cool was saying that maybe the sound we hear when we get insight is the voice of Oedon. After all, it's a formless Great One that manifests itself through sounds, but, as we can see by the Caryll runes, we can't quite make sense of their language as it's spoken.

I really doubt it was their intention, I think it's just a random sound and fans overthinking things, but it fits so nicely that I can't help but love the theory.

 

[Orochinagis]

It's not really an explanation, but they do say "When the red moon hangs low, the line between man and beast is blurred. And when the Great Ones descend, a womb will be blessed with child". It's in Byrgenwerth, I think?



Another thing someone said here that I thought was really cool was saying that maybe the sound we hear when we get insight is the voice of Oedon. After all, it's a formless Great One that manifests itself through sounds, but, as we can see by the Caryll runes, we can't quite make sense of their language as it's spoken.

I really doubt it was their intention, I think it's just a random sound and fans overthinking things, but it fits so nicely that I can't help but love the theory.

Yep you find it there but still is pretty odd several females get pregnant and much more on the upper cathedral ward, maybe the Great One blood Yharman was using it makes the females incubate the baby until the great one arrive but in case of Arianna (a royal blood descendant) didnt have a special baby at all.

There are some items that actually push the sounds you heard is Oedon, poor dude must proably got stranded in Yharman and is living under the city itself

 

[Gbraga]

So, will we use this thread for The Old Hunters Story Discussion or are we making a new one?

 

[Soulflarz]

Holy shit at Yarham under the water outside the fishing hut on the ground floor, out in the lake, you'll see a reflection/the water in the depths. The implications are interesting. Are we in the past, looking at an underwater drowned city? What would have caused the water to get that high? Hmm...
In the more likely case it's looking into another nightmare, are we going through nightmareception?

SO

is this the official thread for the lore discussion? I'm bumping this and linking it in the OT, LETS DISCUSS

also- I have two spells. Soul Arrow and OPer Soul Arrow, and two transformations

"Atonement for the wretches, by the wrath of mother kos"
Mother? I doubt anyones really found the area to which I'm referring for this.

Also what did "Right by your side the whole time" or whatever mean in that one cutscene?

 

[aly]

Holy shit at Yarham under the water outside the fishing hut



"Atonement for the wretches, by the wrath of mother kos"
Mother?

That was super cool to see, but easy to miss if you don't look down. Isn't Kos the mother of the newly born final boss? That's what I got out of it.

I wanna know people's thought's about the wonderful Lady Maria.

 

[Soulflarz]

That was super cool to see, but easy to miss if you don't look down. Isn't Kos the mother of the newly born final boss? That's what I got out of it.

I wanna know people's thought's about the wonderful Lady Maria.

Edited my post to add more for others

Yes, I assume Kos is, but Kos is huge to the lore, what exactly is Kos, why is Kos dead, and why is everyone praising a dead Kos?

Also- legion guy is crazy, right?
https://www.reddit.com/r/bloodborne/comments/3tt7wm/the_confederates_are_madman_slight_spoilers/

 

[aly]

Also what did "Right by your side the whole time" or whatever mean in that one cutscene?

Are you talking about the Ludwig cutscene? If so, he's talking about his sword, which you can actually see on his back during the fight/opening cut scene, although its un transformed there.I find it interesting that Ludwig is the only person who seems to have transformed, but managed to gain himself back later on. You can see it, when he covers up his beast half with his sword in the cutscene and talking to the guy later.

Speaking of that, I totally lied to the guy to set his mind at ease about the hunters

 

[Soulflarz]

Are you talking about the Ludwig cutscene? If so, he's talking about his sword, which you can actually see on his back during the fight/opening cut scene, although its un transformed there.I find it interesting that Ludwig is the only person who seems to have transformed, but managed to gain himself back later on. You can see it, when he covers up his beast half with his sword in the cutscene and talking to the guy later.

Speaking of that, I totally lied to the guy to set his mind at ease about the hunters

Ohh, got it

^PLS

Also reddit reminded me and the fact I spent like 45m talking about it earlier today- umbasa umbasa

Is there any relation to DS in here?

 

[Bots are better than you]

Yharnam submerged could be a foreshadowing what would happen when the Old Ones/the Nightmares succeed.
I think the Nightmares are not a part of the "real" ingame world, as you fight Hunters/People who are long dead (Ludwig, Laurence, presumably Micolash) and everything seems even more twisted than in the reality.

Since the Hunters are responsible for defending Yharnam, a post-apocalyptic version of Yharnam destroyed and twisted sure could be called a "Hunters Nightmare".

 

[Soulflarz]

Did we ever get a proper explanation for what nightmares are? Or for all we know the hunters dream is some obnoxious hub world that sends up to places in set times and really we shouldn't give a damn since we're seeing the whole world through a lense at random times :V

Reminder an enemy warped us back in time or something when we entered the dlc, or put us into another nightmare, which is also weir- ANYWAYS NIGHT GUYS

 

[avrophantasm]

Holy shit at Yarham under the water outside the fishing hut

SO

is this the official thread for the lore discussion? I'm bumping this and linking it in the OT, LETS DISCUSS

also- I have two spells. Soul Arrow and OPer Soul Arrow, and two transformations

"Atonement for the wretches, by the wrath of mother kos"
Mother?

The Lake series of runes mention that water acts as a barrier between the dream realms. Really awesome to see the development team implement that part of the lore.

Spoiler

Perhaps this is also why Kos (giant slug-like thing in the final boss room) washed up on the beach? Some shit went down in Kos's home dimension, and she escaped with her baby through the water barrier only to die soon after?

That was super cool to see, but easy to miss if you don't look down. Isn't Kos the mother of the newly born final boss? That's what I got out of it.

I wanna know people's thought's about the wonderful Lady Maria.

Interesting that she's related to Queen Annalise and received her armor and weapon from Cainhurst , but she's seemed to have dedicated herself to protecting the Church's secrets.

In a lot of ways, the Church and Castle Cainhurst are really similar. Both are searching for a way to ascend into Great One status and seek/consume blood to do so. Queen Annalise follows the Pthumerian tradition, where mortal women would pledge themselves to a Great One to bear their Child of Blood, which she does by consuming blood dregs. The Church follows the example of Byrgenwerth, using experiments featuring "Old Blood" to alter their bodies to be more like Great Ones themselves. Annalise has her hunters kill incessantly for blood dregs, while the upper echelons of the Church have no qualms about using innocent townspeople for experiments, so the citizens of Yharnam have to suffer both factions. The Blood Saints were even engineered by the Church to rival the immortality and allure of the Vileblood Queen. I wonder what made Maria choose one side over the other? Her weapon already hints of her distaste for the Chikage, but there's gotta be more to it than that...

I believe the description of Maria's weapon and armor hints that the Cainhurst Knights and the Hunters of the Workshop were allied at first. But then, Queen Annalise decided to try to have a Child of Blood as Cainhurst's heir. Blood dregs can be found in common villagers and maybe even beasts, but they were most commonly found in hunters. Perhaps Maria split ways with Cainhurst after they started targeting Workshop Hunters? Even now, Maria has great respect for her old master, Gehrman. She would not take kindly to any faction whose goal is to kill her friends and her mentor's students.

Speaking of Gehrman, man what a creepo. I do feel sorry for him and think he kicks lots of ass, but it's a good thing Maria doesn't know how disturbingly obsessed he became with her. I think it's pretty telling that the doll he constructed isn't wearing Maria's armor. Over time, I think he became obsessed with the idea of her being his eternal companion, rather than remembering her being the fierce warrior that he trained.

 

[Soulflarz]

Guys its not weird to stalk your waifu or anything let alone make a carbon copy of her

right (´･ω･`)

 

[aly]

Awesome stuff

Thanks for your thoughts! You raise a lot of interesting points, especially about why someone like Maria would turn against her own heritage. I did'nt expect the Vileblood/Church conflict to even play apart in the DLC, but here we are.

Guys its not weird to stalk your waifu or anything let alone make a carbon copy of her

right (´･ω･`)

That How to pick up Fair Maidens book and line about using the doll seem a lot creepier now.

 

[avrophantasm]

Edited my post to add more for others

Yes, I assume Kos is, but Kos is huge to the lore, what exactly is Kos, why is Kos dead, and why is everyone praising a dead Kos?

Also- legion guy is crazy, right?
https://www.reddit.com/r/bloodborne/comments/3tt7wm/the_confederates_are_madman_slight_spoilers/

Kos is a Lovecraft style "deity" or Great One, a cosmic being that is incredibly powerful and exists outside of space-time. When a Great One is slain in one level of reality, it can still be alive in another. In Lovecraftian mythos, this is called being in a "death-like sleep", so it's possible that Kos can still hear her worshippers in another dimension. I think Micolash's prayer insinuates that Kos is amazingly powerful and has the ability to turn humans into Great Ones.

About the League, Valtr is crazy, but I don't think he's necessarily hallucinating. Vermin not actually existing is a pretty good theory, but I think theories revolving around Vermin actually existing are also valid.

I believe the covenant rune Impurity works similarity to Corruption, in that it gives the hunter who memorizes it increased perception. Corruption allows Vilebloods to see Blood Dregs, which is pretty much concentrated Ebrietas ejaculate. Impurity allows League members to see Vermin, which seem to be the blood parasites that grow in human hosts that have injected or consumed "healing blood".

Vermin are described as representing the "filth in man", and Miyazaki has described the progression of Beasthood being due to humans revelling in (or trying to repress and failing) primal urges. When a Yharnamite indulges in their primal urges, the Vermin grows and causes changes in their host's body. When it is fully grown, its host becomes a beast. League members can see Vermin and know they cause beasthood, so it's easy for them to become obsessed with stomping out what they believe to be the source.

If you read up on Valtr's lore, he actually stopped being able to see Vermin and Phantasms a while ago; he's just pretending he still has that level of perception. He clings to killing beasts as a way to promote "purity"; it's like an obsessive compulsion for him. He feels unworthy of being the League master, so that's why he leaves leadership of the League to you if you crush enough Vermin. It's also possible his bloodlust is feeding his own Vermin growing inside; he is a hunter that uses healing blood after all.

Did we ever get a proper explanation for what nightmares are? Or for all we know the hunters dream is some obnoxious hub world that sends up to places in set times and really we shouldn't give a damn since we're seeing the whole world through a lense at random times :V

Reminder an enemy warped us back in time or something when we entered the dlc, or put us into another nightmare, which is also weir- ANYWAYS NIGHT GUYS

Bloodborne's Dream/Nightmare system is based on Lovecraft's Dreamlands system. The Dreamlands are most safely accessed by sleeping, and are an alternate reality where time is distorted and the world is static. The main setting of Yharnam is an excellent example of a Lovecraftian Dreamland. If killed in the Dreamlands, the dreamer will forget their time in the Dreamlands and can never return, but awakens in the Waking World. One can also travel to the Dreamlands in the physical world, but it is more dangerous. BB's world is unique in that it seems to have several layers of Dreamlands. Yharnam is a Dream realm, but so is the Hunter's Dream and the Nightmare Frontier, which exist outside of Yharnam and need to be connected to it in a special way.

 

[Bots are better than you]

*Wall of Lore*

Are you sure about the Church and Byrgenwerth? The whole setting looked more like the Church trying to keep anything Byrgenwerth covered up.

Byrgenwerth has this whole "Fear the old blood"-mood, starting with that sentence as the password to enter the area. The interiors of the college, the lecturing halls in the nightmare, and Micolash's domain looking like an old university, all that leads me to think that Byrgenwerth is going with the Nightmare-approach.

If the Church marked everything Cainhurst as heretic, i can't see them having the same traditions. Also, i can't remember that there are any undead persons in the church ... only Cainhurst has a connection to undeath and necromancy.

In the end, i think that there are even two types of Great Ones, who compete with each other, the Nightmare ones, who look more like dark chaotic insect-humans (Amygdala, Mergo's Wet Nurse) and the Kin ones, with their strange alien/plant/slug appearance and a bright light color-scheme.
If that is the case, it could explain why the Church locked down everything Nightmare-related.

 

[avrophantasm]

Thanks for your thoughts! You raise a lot of interesting points, especially about why someone like Maria would turn against her own heritage. I did'nt expect the Vileblood/Church conflict to even play apart in the DLC, but here we are.

Thanks. When I was first getting into gaming, talking about Metroid and Zelda lore were my favourite things to do. The Soulsborne games are re-igniting my love of gaming again; partly because of their impressive lore.

That How to pick up Fair Maidens book and line about using the doll seem a lot creepier now.

I always thought his attitude towards the doll was creepy, but I thought it was because he was a Yharnamite and they seem to have are very peculiar attitude about blood and bloodletting. Consuming and receiving blood for a Yharnamite is considered better than alcohol or sex, (from Blood Cocktail description, the practice of women giving blood vials, and now the Constable set etc.) so being able to channel blood echoes would have different, more salacious connotations for a Yharnam native than a foreigner like yourself.

But no. He's just super into Maria.

Are you sure about the Church and Byrgenwerth? The whole setting looked more like the Church trying to keep anything Byrgenwerth covered up.

Byrgenwerth has this whole "Fear the old blood"-mood, starting with that sentence as the password to enter the area. The interiors of the college, the lecturing halls in the nightmare, and Micolash's domain looking like an old university, all that leads me to think that Byrgenwerth is going with the Nightmare-approach.

If the Church marked everything Cainhurst as heretic, i can't see them having the same traditions. Also, i can't remember that there are any undead persons in the church ... only Cainhurst has a connection to undeath and necromancy.

In the end, i think that there are even two types of Great Ones, who compete with each other, the Nightmare ones, who look more like dark chaotic insect-humans (Amygdala, Mergo's Wet Nurse) and the Kin ones, with their strange alien/plant/slug appearance and a bright light color-scheme.
If that is the case, it could explain why the Church locked down everything Nightmare-related.

Well, I know that Byrgenwerth disagrees with the Church's methods; I just meant that the Church has a more scientific approach than Cainhurst's, which is more based on tradition. This schism between Byrgenwerth and the Church is focused on in Laurence's memory; Laurence wanted to get to experimenting with Old Blood right away to figure out how to ascend, but Willem was really against it and wanted to take a more scholarly approach.

Cainhurst heard of what the researchers at Byrgenwerth found out and were able to obtain their own Blood Medium, becoming the Church's biggest rivals. The Church made Byrgenwerth and the surrounding grounds forbidden; likely because they didn't want any more rivals for their ascension and healing methods. Cainhurst is supposedly visible from the Forbidden Woods, so making that area forbidden ground helps quarantine them too, not just Byrgenwerth.

Anyway, I just wanted to point out that the Church and Cainhurst had different approaches, but had ultimately the same goal; to be on the same level of the Great Ones. Miyazaki designed the Church and Cainhurst to mirror each other to emphasize the Church's hypocrisy.

Other characters that help highlight the Church's hypocrisy are Adella and Alfred. It's implied Church Hunters often visit prostitutes from some dialogue in the Cathedral Ward. Arianna's blood vial description and clothes hint that she has Cainhurst heritage, so there's an allure in Cainhurst blood that draws hunters away from the Church. Everything about the process of taking blood vials from Adella implies that she sees herself as a rival to Arianna. In the end, Arianna's is actually a sweet woman and Adella's the one who has it in herself to murder for the sake of your attention. The rivalry between the two women is a thematic echo of the rivalry between the Church and Cainhurst.

As for Alfred, he initially comes off warm and friendly and his goal to end the Vilebloods once and for all seems just and good. But when you witness the aftermath of his questline, it's obvious that Alfred is actually a self-righteous sadist. In the end, Alfred was no better than the Vilebloods he hunted, delighting in bloodshed and wanting validation and honour from his mentor.