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[Edzi]

Gherman tells you that you will lose your memories when you escape the dream, but Elieen seems to remember the Doll, contradicting that. Djura also seems aware of the existence of the dream.

Oh, right. I still maintain what I said earlier, about the Hunter's Dream possibly working more like an actual dream. Also, it's not necessarily the case that the only way out of the dream is through Gehrman, since we don't really know a whole lot about how the Dream operates, or what happens when a Hunter "fails" (assuming it's even possible to fail the Hunt).

 

[KittenMaster]

Actually, we know a lot about how the dream operates and how it was created especially when you look at the Umbilical Cords and the Nightmare of Menesis (also, Micholash is another example of where it is stated that you lose your memories when you escape the dream). The dream (or nightmare) is basically where your conscious exists separate from your body, which would be how you would lose your memories if you are killed in the dream as it would leave your body without the conscious so to speak (which is why Micholash was in despair when you kill him: he had no body thus rendering him no longer existing).

Somehow, a hunter like Elieen may have left the dream (like how you use a tombstone to go to a lamp) but somehow is no longer able to return to it while retaining her memories of things in the dream.

 

[Orochinagis]

Gherman tells you that you will lose your memories when you escape the dream, but Elieen seems to remember the Doll, contradicting that. Djura also seems aware of the existence of the dream.

Maybe Gehrman stopped summoning them for the incoming hunting nights so they could retained their memories, also dont forget the original workshop have still the original doll there and was abandoned later on.

In case of Elieen maybe she wasnt summoned to the dream anymore since she dedicated to hunt the hunters and Djura outlived the hunters lifetime alonside with Gas and the rest of the hunters so they wont be useful for the hunt anymore.

The player is probably the only hunter to be summoned in BB events without counting the invaders

 

[Gbraga]

Eh, I don't think something left intentionally vague can be considered a plot hole. Also, Djura's quote could potentially imply something like that, but at the same time it doesn't really have to since it's vague enough to not mean anything important.

The Doll pretty clearly tells you in the dream that their have been hunters before you, and I think at some point she even says that the tombstones there are to mark those hunters. The fact that they're tombstones could mean that they were "killed" by Gehrman at the end of the hunt through the sunrise ending.



Oh, and you mentioned possibly missing some hard facts, but I think it's important to remember that the game's story has some hard facts, but also a lot of stuff that isn't really explained explicitly (The Moon Presence and the exact role of the player character come to mind). The best we can do is come up with explanations that are consistent and based on the few hard facts we do have, while trying to keep theories that don't rely on the hard facts to a minimum. I think that's what makes it so fun (since we have the framework to actually piece together a coherent and interesting story), but it also makes it easy to get kinda carried away (since it's easy to go overboard filling in all the blanks).

Yes, indeed, I did consider the tombstones as well for the submit ending theory, forgot to mention it. But this brings us back to:

I considered the possibility of it being a plot hole because what Gherman says contradicts what actually happened to Djura and Elieen.

If what happened to Djura and Eileen is the same as what happened to us, then why didn't they forget the dream? It makes no sense at all. Either no one does or only they do.

The best I could come up with was that they didn't see all the eldritch bullshit we did, and that's the reason Gehrman wipes our memory but not theirs, but here's the thing: The only thing we're explicitly told we'll forget is the dream, we can't even be completely sure we'll forget Rom, for example, but even assuming we do, then it raises another question, why make us forget the dream instead of just the eldritch stuff? And more importantly, what difference does it make, when you consider a lot of people seem to know about it and will tell you anyway. It's not the world's best kept secret, let's put it like that.

also, Micholash is another example of where it is stated that you lose your memories when you escape the dream

Indeed. Very, very good point.

 

[KittenMaster]

Maybe. That seems like the most plausible explanation. They simply stopped being brought to the dream.

Speaking of Nightmare of Menesis. I posted this in the main thread awhile back, but nobody ever responded to it and it fits here, but did anyone else notice how:

- Rom is vacuous (mindless) and has a shell on its face with many holes in it
- "As you once did for the vacuous Rom, grant us eyes, grant us eyes. Plant eyes on our brains, to cleanse our beastly idiocy."
- There is a brain with a bunch of eyes on it hung from a tower with no body belonging to it?

And more importantly, what difference does it make, when you consider a lot of people seem to know about it and will tell you anyway. It's not the world's best kept secret, let's put it like that.

Most of the people that know about it are now dead, and because the main character's memories are lost, he can't warn others about what he had found out.

 

[Edzi]

Actually, we know a lot about how the dream operates and how it was created especially when you look at the Umbilical Cords and the Nightmare of Menesis (also, Micholash is another example of where it is stated that you lose your memories when you escape the dream). The dream (or nightmare) is basically where your conscious exists separate from your body, which would be how you would lose your memories if you are killed in the dream as it would leave your body without the conscious so to speak (which is why Micholash was in despair when you kill him: he had no body thus rendering him no longer existing).

Somehow, a hunter like Elieen may have left the dream (like how you use a tombstone to go to a lamp) but somehow is no longer able to return to it while retaining her memories of things in the dream.

These are all interesting possibilities, though I disagree that the dream Micolash was taking part in is the same as the Hunter's Dream. At the very least, it seems to be different in the way it's accessed, as I don't think we're given any indication that the player character is leaving his "real" body when he enters the dream, while we have reason to think that Micolash (and the students of Mensis) were using some other kind of ritual to go into the dream, hence the bodies they leave behind. Though I'm just throwing out random ideas and possibilities at this point, since I can't really remember the details.

Maybe Gehrman stopped summoning them for the incoming hunting nights so they could retained their memories, also dont forget the original workshop have still the original doll there and was abandoned later on.

In case of Elieen maybe she wasnt summoned to the dream anymore since she dedicated to hunt the hunters and Djura outlived the hunters lifetime alonside with Gas and the rest of the hunters so they wont be useful for the hunt anymore.

The player is probably the only hunter to be summoned in BB events without counting the invaders

I agree that the MC is probably the only hunter to be summoned to the Hunter's dream during the current hunt, but who knows what went on during past hunts. For all we know, the dream operated differently back when the plague of beasts wasn't as fully developed in Yharnam.

I feel like I need to look into all the in game lore regarding Djura and Eileen again.

 

[Gbraga]

Maybe. That seems like the most plausible explanation. They simply stopped being brought to the dream.

Speaking of Nightmare of Menesis. I posted this in the main thread awhile back, but nobody ever responded to it and it fits here, but did anyone else notice how:

- Rom is vacuous (mindless) and has a shell on its face with many holes in it
- "As you once did for the vacuous Rom, grant us eyes, grant us eyes. Plant eyes on our brains, to cleanse our beastly idiocy."
- There is a brain with a bunch of eyes on it hung from a tower with no body belonging to it?

You can see many eyes moving in Rom's face hole thingies, though. It does sound very nice, but I don't think that brain belonging to Rom is really supported by the game.

Most of the people that know about it are now dead, and because the main character's memories are lost, he can't warn others about what he had found out.

Right, but that only applies to the eldritch stuff, doesn't it? The dream itself has no reason to be wiped from your memory and not theirs.

These are all interesting possibilities, though I disagree that the dream Micolash was taking part in is the same as the Hunter's Dream. At the very least, it seems to be different in the way it's accessed, as I don't think we're given any indication that the player character is leaving his "real" body when he enters the dream, while we have reason to think that Micolash (and the students of Mensis) were using some other kind of ritual to go into the dream, hence the bodies they leave behind. Though I'm just throwing out random ideas and possibilities at this point, since I can't really remember the details.

It's not necessarily the same dream, but it operates similarly, and was conceived through a Third Umbilical Cord, just like the Hunter's Dream.

 

[DoubleTake]

Maybe Gehrman stopped summoning them for the incoming hunting nights so they could retained their memories, also dont forget the original workshop have still the original doll there and was abandoned later on.

In case of Elieen maybe she wasnt summoned to the dream anymore since she dedicated to hunt the hunters and Djura outlived the hunters lifetime alonside with Gas and the rest of the hunters so they wont be useful for the hunt anymore.

The player is probably the only hunter to be summoned in BB events without counting the invaders

I think this is actually a pretty good explanation. We know what the HoH do so perhaps Eileen came across the previous one and took up the mantle. This would contradict her contract with the dream so she was "let go".

Djura after the events of Old Yharnam came to see the beasts as people and so wasnt fit to carry on with the dream or decided to never return again, effectively ending his contract.

One thing thats always had me intrigued is Gascoigne's line in the middle of his boss fight. "Oh, whats that smell? The sweet blood, oh it sings to me, it's enough to make a man sick". Ive always found it weird how Gascoigne specifically calls it the sweet blood when he smells you. We know that the player character smells of the moon, could what Father G be smelling on you be paleblood? How does he know the smell? Had Gascoigne dreamed at one point as well?

 

[Edzi]

Yes, indeed, I did consider the tombstones as well for the submit ending theory, forgot to mention it. But this brings us back to:



If what happened to Djura and Eileen is the same as what happened to us, then why didn't they forget the dream? It makes no sense at all. Either no one does or only they do.

The best I could come up with was that they didn't see all the eldritch bullshit we did, and that's the reason Gehrman wipes our memory but not theirs, but here's the thing: The only thing we're explicitly told we'll forget is the dream, we can't even be completely sure we'll forget Rom, for example, but even assuming we do, then it raises another question, why make us forget the dream instead of just the eldritch stuff? And more importantly, what difference does it make, when you consider a lot of people seem to know about it and will tell you anyway. It's not the world's best kept secret, let's put it like that.



Indeed. Very, very good point.

I think I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but it's also entirely possible that Gerhman didn't literally mean you'd forget your time in the hunt, but that he meant you'd sever your ties to the dream. "Forget the dream" as in "you'll no longer be bound to come back here anymore".

Then again, Micolash mentioning that he'll forget stuff after leaving the Nightmare of Mensis does indicate that some kind of memory loss may occur when severing the ties one has to a dream/nightmare. But then Eileen and Djura indicate otherwise, which brings me back to the Hunter's Dream possibly being a bit different, or at least different in the way you get there. Who knows, there are a lot of possibilities here, I kinda wanna dive back into reading all the item descriptions.

Right, but that only applies to the eldritch stuff, doesn't it? The dream itself has no reason to be wiped from your memory and not theirs.

I think there may be something to the idea that they only forget the stuff about the cosmos and Great Ones. Makes sense when you consider that the one who's running things in the Hunter's Dream is the Moon Presence, who probably doesn't want you or anyone else aware of her and other Great Ones.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

With regard to the Micolash and Player Hunter examples, they both exited the dream by being killed.

That's not necessarily the case with Djura and Eileen.

 

[KittenMaster]

as I don't think we're given any indication that the player character is leaving his "real" body when he enters the dream

Going to the dream when you first die isn't a strong hint of this?

Also, there are a ton of parallels between the Hunter's Dream and the Nightmare of Menesis if you really look for them and a lot suggests that the Hunter's Dream is not so different in how it was created (in that both are created with an Umbilical Cord that makes contact with a great one).

Right, but that only applies to the eldritch stuff, doesn't it?

It also applies to finding out that the Healing Blood is actually a very bad thing to consume and was what was causing a lot of the beasts, thus the player losing his memories means he can't spread the knowledge needed to prevent another hunt.

 

[Edzi]

I think this is actually a pretty good explanation. We know what the HoH do so perhaps Eileen came across the previous one and took up the mantle. This would contradict her contract with the dream so she was "let go".

Djura after the events of Old Yharnam came to see the beasts as people and so wasnt fit to carry on with the dream or decided to never return again, effectively ending his contract.

One thing thats always had me intrigued is Gascoigne's line in the middle of his boss fight. "Oh, whats that smell? The sweet blood, oh it sings to me, it's enough to make a man sick". Ive always found it weird how Gascoigne specifically calls it the sweet blood when he smells you. We know that the player character smells of the moon, could what Father G be smelling on you be paleblood? How does he know the smell? Had Gascoigne dreamed at one point as well?

Oh, this is an interesting point I hadn't considered. The contract mentioned in the beginning could be connected to the dream, and like you said, both Djura and Eileen did something that effectively stopped them from being proper hunters, thus potentially breaking the contract. Something the player character never does, thus differentiating him from those two possibly explaining why they remember while the MC may not.

With regard to the Micolash and Player Hunter examples, they both exited the dream by being killed.

That's not necessarily the case with Djura and Eileen.

This does seem to support the contract theory mentioned above. Interesting.

Going to the dream when you first die isn't a strong hint of this?

Also, there are a ton of parallels between the Hunter's Dream and the Nightmare of Menesis if you really look for them and a lot suggests that the Hunter's Dream is not so different in how it was created (in that both are created with an Umbilical Cord that makes contact with a great one).
It also applies to finding out that the Healing Blood is actually a very bad thing to consume and was what was causing a lot of the beasts, thus the player losing his memories means he can't spread the knowledge needed to prevent another hunt.

Yeah, the parallels are there, but I still think the way you get there is different. When you die, your body fades out of existence and reappears in the Dream. Same thing happens when you teleport to a lantern. The students of Mensis used those weird cage helmets, and the fact that we see their corpses everywhere seems to indicate that they separated from their physical bodies. It's a possibility anyway.

 

[Orochinagis]

Maybe. That seems like the most plausible explanation. They simply stopped being brought to the dream.

Speaking of Nightmare of Menesis. I posted this in the main thread awhile back, but nobody ever responded to it and it fits here, but did anyone else notice how:

- Rom is vacuous (mindless) and has a shell on its face with many holes in it
- "As you once did for the vacuous Rom, grant us eyes, grant us eyes. Plant eyes on our brains, to cleanse our beastly idiocy."
- There is a brain with a bunch of eyes on it hung from a tower with no body belonging to it?

Most of the people that know about it are now dead, and because the main character's memories are lost, he can't warn others about what he had found out.

The brain is actually a failed creation but a great one still, you can communicate with it.

Dont forget Ebritas is feeding or praying in front of another Rom and white flowers were sprouting from its corpse, you can find more white flowers on the celestial emmisary and the Dream.

These are all interesting possibilities, though I disagree that the dream Micolash was taking part in is the same as the Hunter's Dream. At the very least, it seems to be different in the way it's accessed, as I don't think we're given any indication that the player character is leaving his "real" body when he enters the dream, while we have reason to think that Micolash (and the students of Mensis) were using some other kind of ritual to go into the dream, hence the bodies they leave behind. Though I'm just throwing out random ideas and possibilities at this point, since I can't really remember the details.

Yup Micolash made his own version of the dream but pretty different since he is the only one who came back to "reality" and the mensis area didnt changed at all maybe due gemaplay mechanics.

The dream actually ends according to Gehrman and kick everyone to reality but gameplay wise you need to be kicked by him personally which is dumb but adds more narrative because he could just simply shut down the dream without asking you.

One thing thats always had me intrigued is Gascoigne's line in the middle of his boss fight. "Oh, whats that smell? The sweet blood, oh it sings to me, it's enough to make a man sick". Ive always found it weird how Gascoigne specifically calls it the sweet blood when he smells you. We know that the player character smells of the moon, could what Father G be smelling on you be paleblood? How does he know the smell? Had Gascoigne dreamed at one point as well?

You have to read the bloob bombs descriptions.

"Mature blood cocktail that releases a pungent odor when thrown that attracts blood-thirsty beasts.

A precious tool in sadly short supply.

In Yharnam, they produce more blood than alcohol. as the former is the more intoxicating."

Father G was already bloodlust when you reach him

 

[Gbraga]

I think this is actually a pretty good explanation. We know what the HoH do so perhaps Eileen came across the previous one and took up the mantle. This would contradict her contract with the dream so she was "let go".

Djura after the events of Old Yharnam came to see the beasts as people and so wasnt fit to carry on with the dream or decided to never return again, effectively ending his contract.

One thing thats always had me intrigued is Gascoigne's line in the middle of his boss fight. "Oh, whats that smell? The sweet blood, oh it sings to me, it's enough to make a man sick". Ive always found it weird how Gascoigne specifically calls it the sweet blood when he smells you. We know that the player character smells of the moon, could what Father G be smelling on you be paleblood? How does he know the smell? Had Gascoigne dreamed at one point as well?

I think it's just a general "blood is so sweet, I'm super crazy" thing, I never took it to mean anything particular to us.

I think I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but it's also entirely possible that Gerhman didn't literally mean you'd forget your time in the hunt, but that he meant you'd sever your ties to the dream. "Forget the dream" as in "you'll no longer be bound to come back here anymore".

That's definitely possible, good point, I'd like to see someone do a more literal translation of that line in Japanese to see how it goes.

Then again, Micolash mentioning that he'll forget stuff after leaving the Nightmare of Mensis does indicate that some kind of memory loss may occur when severing the ties one has to a dream/nightmare. But then Eileen and Djura indicate otherwise, which brings me back to the Hunter's Dream possibly being a bit different, or at least different in the way you get there. Who knows, there are a lot of possibilities here, I kinda wanna dive back into reading all the item descriptions.

This game, man, I know so many of them by heart it's insane. I love Dark Souls' story a lot as well, but I don't think I can recall as many item descriptions as I can in Bloodborne.

Another thing that I should add about the whole dying and forgetting your memories, this can also be used to somewhat give a weak explanation as to why Gehrman doesn't really die if you attack him, but instead just "poofs". Maybe the Moon Presence's influence is what protects him so he doesn't die and can stay there doing his job, or whatever. Basically, *insert plot armor here* exactly so that you can't say something like "if he hosts the dream like Micolash did and wants so much to be free, why doesn't he just kill himself?"

I think there may be something to the idea that they only forget the stuff about the cosmos and Great Ones. Makes sense when you consider that the one who's running things in the Hunter's Dream is the Moon Presence, who probably doesn't want you or anyone else aware of her and other Great Ones.

Yeah, makes a lot of sense. But if that's the case, I wish it was worded a bit better. Though I should say that I can't quite see how you can make it sound as poetic while being more direct. Maybe just changing "forget the dream" with "forget the nightmare"? That would be more than enough to convince me, imo.

With regard to the Micolash and Player Hunter examples, they both exited the dream by being killed.

That's not necessarily the case with Djura and Eileen.

Sure, but it seems to be a really well accepted theory, and I have to admit that it does have some very good points going for it.

It also applies to finding out that the Healing Blood is actually a very bad thing to consume and was what was causing a lot of the beasts, thus the player losing his memories means he can't spread the knowledge needed to prevent another hunt.

Good point.

Though I could argue that Djura already does this, it doesn't seem to be that big of an issue.

 

[Fafalada]

Either no one does or only they do.

That's not how dreams work though.
While I played through it felt like a pretty deliberate indication this is something that varies with individuals and events experienced, very much like you'd expect from a real dream. Name chosen was obviously deliberate, so similarities would be as well.

 

[Edzi]

One other thing worth mentioning regarding memories and "waking up" from a Dream, is that Micolash was the host of his nightmare, while the player character, Djura, and Eileen are not. It probably means nothing, but it's just one more way that Micolash's experience with the dream might be fundamentally different than yours.

 

[Gbraga]

Yup Micolash made his own version of the dream but pretty different since he is the only one who came back to "reality" and the mensis area didnt changed at all maybe due gemaplay mechanics.

You mean the nightmare still going on after he dies? I think that's also story related. It fits very well with the whole "dreams are alternate realities" thing, and Great Ones inhabiting the nightmare. Micolash is the host, but even if he dies, the nightmare persists, once it's conceived, it can't go away. I don't think Micolash's presence there was required, he just wanted to be there, he still seems crazy about eldritch knowledge, and doesn't even seem to realize how long he has been gone. When you kill him, he's worried about forgetting what he learned, not that he would be dead anyway.

That's not how dreams work though.
While I played through it felt like a pretty deliberate indication this is something that varies with individuals and events experienced, very much like you'd expect from a real dream. Name chosen was obviously deliberate, so similarities would be as well.

But it's not a natural thing in the dream, that maybe sometimes people forget, it's Gehrman who gives you this option, Gehrman that makes it so you forget. If you kill Gehrman, you don't forget it. It's not really about how dreams work as much as it is about how Gehrman does.

One other thing worth mentioning regarding memories and "waking up" from a Dream, is that Micolash was the host of his nightmare, while the player character, Djura, and Eileen are not. It probably means nothing, but it's just one more way that Micolash's experience with the dream might be fundamentally different than yours.

You're super right.

 

[KittenMaster]

One other thing worth mentioning regarding memories and "waking up" from a Dream, is that Micolash was the host of his nightmare, while the player character, Djura, and Eileen are not. It probably means nothing, but it's just one more way that Micolash's experience with the dream might be fundamentally different than yours.

Micholash is sort of a parallel to Gherman, actually, as it's possible that Gherman was with the group that made contact with the great one and caused the creation of the Hunter's Dream. Both Gehrman and Micolash are trapped in their respective dreams/nightmares with no body to return to.

I'd actually argue that random hunter with the scholar set is a parallel to the player, kind of as a sort of joke on the writers' part.

 

[DoubleTake]

I just gotta say this game is absolutely amazing when it comes to lore. To spawn a 40 page thread on only trying to peace everything together is really impressive. Kudos to From and Miyazaki.

 

[Orochinagis]

One other thing worth mentioning regarding memories and "waking up" from a Dream, is that Micolash was the host of his nightmare, while the player character, Djura, and Eileen are not. It probably means nothing, but it's just one more way that Micolash's experience with the dream might be fundamentally different than yours.

You mean the nightmare still going on after he dies? I think that's also story related. It fits very well with the whole "dreams are alternate realities" thing, and Great Ones inhabiting the nightmare. Micolash is the host, but even if he dies, the nightmare persists, once it's conceived, it can't go away. I don't think Micolash's presence there was required, he just wanted to be there, he still seems crazy about eldritch knowledge, and doesn't even seem to realize how long he has been gone. When you kill him, he's worried about forgetting what he learned, not that he would be dead anyway.

The Hunters dreams is basically a dionysus sphere while Micholash is just a corruption that flooded the Mensis castle and its surroundings according to the giants descriptions, still the great ones already came to Yharman as slugs and tried to live here then in BB events and prior entered Yharman via Dream and nightmare full scale, thanks ebrietas.

 

[Fafalada]

If you kill Gehrman, you don't forget it.

Because you don't die if you do - I think that was made pretty explicit with Micolash earlier - getting killed in the dream is how you get out, with or without memories.
Gherman himself says as much as well - begging to be killed in one of his sleep-talking monologues.

 

[Gbraga]

I just gotta say this game is absolutely amazing when it comes to lore. To spawn a 40 page thread on only trying to peace everything together is really impressive. Kudos to From and Miyazaki.

And Bloodborne was actually much easier to follow, too. With lore notes and whatnot, it's just that the story itself is pretty convoluted. Dark Souls in the other hand has a pretty simple and straightforward story, but it's really hidden from the player, you might even stumble upon something with huge lore implications by accident, and have no idea of what any of that means.

I really love both styles, those guys are amazing. I feel quite confident saying that Miyazaki is the best game designer in the business right now.

Because you don't die if you do - I think that was made pretty explicit with Micolash earlier - getting killed in the dream is how you get out, with or without memories.
Gherman himself says as much as well - begging to be killed in one of his sleep-talking monologues.

Then you should also get the Yharnam Sunrise ending if you die against the Moon Presence. That actually always felt weird to me, that you get respawns against it, it's not even a hard boss, so gameplay reasons are not enough to justify it. If you can kill Gehrman, you can take on the Moon Presence no problem.

We really do need a design works for this game.

 

[DoubleTake]

And Bloodborne was actually much easier to follow, too. With lore notes and whatnot, it's just that the story itself is pretty convoluted. Dark Souls in the other hand has a pretty simple and straightforward story, but it's really hidden from the player, you might even stumble upon something with huge lore implications by accident, and have no idea of what any of that means.

I really love both styles, those guys are amazing. I feel quite confident saying that Miyazaki is the best game designer in the business right now.

Yup I definitely agree. Also apparently lore note type things will be returning in Ds3 in the form of Tombstones. Im really excited to see how From wraps up the Dark story.

 

[Gbraga]

Yup I definitely agree. Also apparently lore note type things will be returning in Ds3 in the form of Tombstones. Im really excited to see how From wraps up the Dark story.

Those fuckers are amazing, I was really eh on the whole cyclic thing from Dark II, but if they're planning on using that to their advantage having those Lords of Cinders as major boss fights, it'll be well worth it.

Can you imagine

Spoiler

fighting a powered up Gwyn

in Dark Souls III? It even fits with the leak by The Know, where it was mentioned

Spoiler

16 "new bosses", and at the time people just assumed reused bosses for the sake of being reused, but maybe it has its story reasons.

 

[Orochinagis]

Because you don't die if you do - I think that was made pretty explicit with Micolash earlier - getting killed in the dream is how you get out, with or without memories.
Gherman himself says as much as well - begging to be killed in one of his sleep-talking monologues.

Micolash and Gehrman are the host, you are not, Gehrman wanted to end his job as a host but his duty is stronger than his desire.

The player is not supposed to die in the story, it was supposed to be an hollow element mechanic alonside with the beast transform, not like dark souls die and revive, you dont feel any degradation of yourself if you die but by drinking blood.

Then you should also get the Yharnam Sunrise ending if you die against the Moon Presence. That actually always felt weird to me, that you get respawns against it, it's not even a hard boss, so gameplay reasons are not enough to justify it. If you can kill Gehrman, you can take on the Moon Presence no problem.

We really do need a design works for this game.

I was expecting to get forced to see the ending if you failed kill gehrman too. Maybe to give the player time for preparing and exploring.

 

[Fafalada]

That actually always felt weird to me, that you get respawns against it, it's not even a hard boss, so gameplay reasons are not enough to justify it.

Well you respawn back to Gherman still being alive - so that's the one fight that doesn't really work well with any (known) in-lore explanation - agreed. It felt oddly lazy compared to how the rest of the game (and other two endings) are crafted.
I suppose one could argue Gherman dying changes rules (or MP does) but that still wouldn't explain respawning back to before Gherman fight.

The player is not supposed to die in the story

It works in-story since the only time a death changes something is when you finally die inside the dream (minus the dying in last 2-fights, which we all agree was against expectations).
And while hosts may be different from other dream inhabitants, the dying in dream part seems to be the same for all humans.

 

[Gbraga]

I was expecting to get forced to see the ending if you failed kill gehrman too. Maybe to give the player time for preparing and exploring.

Yeah, right? Or at the very least giving you the option to submit again. Gehrman begs you to listen to him when he kills you (iirc), but the game won't let you change your mind.

Well you respawn back to Gherman still being alive - so that's the one fight that doesn't really work well with any (known) in-lore explanation - agreed. It felt oddly lazy compared to how the rest of the game (and other two endings) are crafted.
I suppose one could argue Gherman dying changes rules (or MP does) but that still wouldn't explain respawning back to before Gherman fight..

What, Gehrman is alive and well if you die against the Moon Presence? That makes even less sense.

Though one could argue that it leasts gives one good gameplay reason for that, it's supposed to be a sequence of two bosses, kind of like you can't kill Smough, die and then just fight Ornstein. But the O&S fight isn't nearly as crucial to the lore as those are, so it inevitably feels weird.

 

[Orochinagis]

It works in-story since the only time a death changes something is when you finally die inside the dream (minus the dying in last 2-fights, which we all agree was against expectations).
And while hosts may be different from other dream inhabitants, the dying in dream part seems to be the same for all humans.

You dont die because you are suposed to go to the dream via Lamps and the cutscene triggers.

To be honest I feel Gehrman doesnt want you to return so he kicked out instead of just closing the dream but I guess that another gameplay mechanic to explain you that.

Yeah, right? Or at the very least giving you the option to submit again. Gehrman begs you to listen to him when he kills you (iirc), but the game won't let you change your mind.

I guess they didnt want people complain about being forced to see an ending they didnt know about it like Dark Souls 1, Dark Souls 2 you have to talk to Emerald Herald to start new game plus.

What, Gehrman is alive and well if you die against the Moon Presence? That makes even less sense.

Though one could argue that it leasts gives one good gameplay reason for that, it's supposed to be a sequence of two bosses, kind of like you can't kill Smough, die and then just fight Ornstein. But the O&S fight isn't nearly as crucial to the lore as those are, so it inevitably feels weird.

Mmmm no, You fight against the moon presence directly if you killed gehrman but died in moon presence

 

[Gbraga]

Mmmm no, You fight against the moon presence directly if you killed gehrman but died in moon presence

Ok, that definitely makes more sense.

 

[Fafalada]

What, Gehrman is alive and well if you die against the Moon Presence?

He was for me after I lost first fight with MP - though I guess it's possible I messed with my saves when that happened and caused it myself, it was pretty late at night

I guess they didnt want people complain about being forced to see an ending they didnt know about it like Dark Souls 1, Dark Souls 2 you have to talk to Emerald Herald to start new game plus.

Probably - although on the flipside they tried to force "one ending per playthrough" with the save-slot restrictions which wasn't very user-friendly either...

 

[truly101]

I finished this not too long ago so its been interesting to read this thread and make sense of whatever it was I did.

I couldn't figure out the chalice system. I never found a root chalice, and I cleared all the ones I could open. There were others that I didn't have materials to make the ritual. Is there a guide for how to do those "correctly" The chalice dungeons aren't exactly fun so I'd rather not spend more time in there than I have to.

 

[Pejo]

So I just finished the 90 page essay on the story of Bloodborne and I absolutely love the final part, where it speculates that the Doll is a great one, and you are its child. Some really awesome stuff that I totally missed despite 3 playthroughs, like the awful brain creatures in the nightmare are actually the Doll, and it's not a brain on her head, it's the corpses of messengers. I have to go check that out again later tonight.

Freakin' From Software man, you guys know how to do minimalist story.

 

[Gbraga]

So I just finished the 90 page essay on the story of Bloodborne and I absolutely love the final part, where it speculates that the Doll is a great one, and you are its child. Some really awesome stuff that I totally missed despite 3 playthroughs, like the awful brain creatures in the nightmare are actually the Doll, and it's not a brain on her head, it's the corpses of messengers. I have to go check that out again later tonight.

Freakin' From Software man, you guys know how to do minimalist story.

ENB also seems to be into that, but I personally think this is bullshit. Of all the crazy bullshit people come up with, this is the worst to me.

 

[Pejo]

ENB also seems to be into that, but I personally think this is bullshit. Of all the crazy bullshit people come up with, this is the worst to me.

Yea I'll admit that until I read the essay, I never would have thought that. But there is at least a little evidence to support it, with the "hidden" ending at least. I also don't think you were her child the entire time, I think you become her child at the end. Whether it's a surrogate or it's by transcending into a new being by eating the cords, I still don't know.

 

[Molemitts]

Sorry if you've already explained this, but one thing that confuses me is this. If dying in Hunter Dream is what ends the dream and causes you to wake up in Yharnam like the submission ending implies, then how come dying to Gehrman when fighting him just causes you to respawn in Hunter's Dream. I should think there's some kind of explanation as these games don't normally allow a plot hole that big.

 

[The Xtortionist]

Sorry if you've already explained this, but one thing that confuses me is this. If dying in Hunter Dream is what ends the dream and causes you to wake up in Yharnam like the submission ending implies, then how come dying to Gehrman when fighting him just causes you to respawn in Hunter's Dream. I should think there's some kind of explanation as these games don't normally allow a plot hole that big.

You have to accept your death. Gehrman says as much when he defeats you.

 

[Molemitts]

You have to accept your death. Gehrman says as much when he defeats you.

That would be the answer, thanks.

 

[Orochinagis]

ENB also seems to be into that, but I personally think this is bullshit. Of all the crazy bullshit people come up with, this is the worst to me.

Yup,for me the doll is just a tool , probably a mimic of the original doll, created to serve the dream.

Yea I'll admit that until I read the essay, I never would have thought that. But there is at least a little evidence to support it, with the "hidden" ending at least. I also don't think you were her child the entire time, I think you become her child at the end. Whether it's a surrogate or it's by transcending into a new being by eating the cords, I still don't know.

Ending 2 about killing Gehrman its kinda the same, you take his place and the doll is just there to serve the Dream's host, in ending three it reveals she is serving moon presence too or just being there to support and serve the Dream.

Sorry if you've already explained this, but one thing that confuses me is this. If dying in Hunter Dream is what ends the dream and causes you to wake up in Yharnam like the submission ending implies, then how come dying to Gehrman when fighting him just causes you to respawn in Hunter's Dream. I should think there's some kind of explanation as these games don't normally allow a plot hole that big.

Look some posts above, probably to avoid being pushed to new game plus without your consent.

 

[The Xtortionist]

The doll thing could just be a form of irony. Instead of the all-powerful alien space gods getting the surrogate they want, a simple doll created by lowly humans (figuratively speaking) is the one to receive a child.

 

[Edzi]

ENB also seems to be into that, but I personally think this is bullshit. Of all the crazy bullshit people come up with, this is the worst to me.

Yeah, this is one of my least favorite theories as well. The game makes it pretty explicit that the doll was created by people to serve them, so I see no reason why that would be a lie.

You have to accept your death. Gehrman says as much when he defeats you.

Do you remember exactly what he says? I was just wondering about what makes being killed in the Dream special (since you can die numerous ways but only Gehrman's execution wakes you up), but Gehrman saying you need to accept your death for you to actually wake up would explain it.

 

[Kazuhira]

I just gotta say this game is absolutely amazing when it comes to lore. To spawn a 40 page thread on only trying to peace everything together is really impressive. Kudos to From and Miyazaki.

Bloodborne is definitely the best when it comes to the lore imo.
I love it so much.

 

[The Xtortionist]

Do you remember exactly what he says? I was just wondering about what makes being killed in the Dream special (since you can die numerous ways but only Gehrman's execution wakes you up), but Gehrman saying you need to accept your death for you to actually wake up would explain it.

"You must accept your death..." IIRC

 

[Gbraga]

Do you remember exactly what he says? I was just wondering about what makes being killed in the Dream special (since you can die numerous ways but only Gehrman's execution wakes you up), but Gehrman saying you need to accept your death for you to actually wake up would explain it.

He does indeed say that you must accept your death to be freed from the Hunter's Dream, or something like that.

Which makes it even worse that you can't choose to accept it after dying to him :C

They even went through the trouble of having you attacking him being a trigger to the boss fight, so it's not like that would let people kill him in a cheap way or whatever, just reset it to the same state as before.

Him still being in his fighting getup but just standing there waiting for you to talk to him would be much cooler though.

Oh well, not a big deal.

The doll thing could just be a form of irony. Instead of the all-powerful alien space gods getting the surrogate they want, a simple doll created by lowly humans (figuratively speaking) is the one to receive a child.

I like this one a lot more. It makes assumptions about their intentions that we might never know for sure, but nothing crazy with not enough evidence and that completely changes everything. Is it intentional, just a coincindence? We don't know, but it doesn't really matter.

 

[Auctopus]

I just gotta say this game is absolutely amazing when it comes to lore. To spawn a 40 page thread on only trying to peace everything together is really impressive. Kudos to From and Miyazaki.

I felt Dark Souls was more substantial; felt more epic and communicated the feeling of a past world more successfully. But I like the feeling of hopelessness in Bloodborne and the more ominous subjects.

 

[DoubleTake]

I felt Dark Souls was more substantial; felt more epic and communicated the feeling of a past world more successfully. But I like the feeling of hopelessness in Bloodborne and the more ominous subjects.

Oh of course. Dark Souls actually laid out a "creation" story for the player and we more or less understand where and how the world came to be. Motivations are where it gets murky.

With BB we're not given this information and instead have to find it throughout the game in notes/items and NPC dialogue. However, motivations here are more straightforward with the exception of The Great Ones who we cant truly ever understand.

Both are great though, and are a testament to From's storytelling/world building chops.

 

[Orochinagis]

The doll thing could just be a form of irony. Instead of the all-powerful alien space gods getting the surrogate they want, a simple doll created by lowly humans (figuratively speaking) is the one to receive a child.

You are a god for her, since your kind were the ones who created her on first place so its natural for her to love you and pray you. another mock of religion ingame.

I felt Dark Souls was more substantial; felt more epic and communicated the feeling of a past world more successfully. But I like the feeling of hopelessness in Bloodborne and the more ominous subjects.

The trick in dark souls is about keeping the humans ignorant of themselves and never learn from their past for several reasons, mainly the gods keeping them praying for them, the lore is basically exploring others religions and myths that were actually wrong and were made by assumptions of gossips or faith in most of the cases.

In bloodborne could be more complex due being composed by mythical relations of beings from other planes of existence and the religion involving them and how society accept them in a cry for a better living and privatization of managing the blood from Yharman alone for a greater good.

Ignoring other civilization fell of the same temptation of the blood, the church were still learning from them and didnt notices how much they were used until it was too late.

 

[DoubleTake]

I thought this may spark some interest lore wise. People need to check out this thread on reddit. Apparently Bloodborne is inspired by Faust(Goethes). Just as much as Lovecraft. We must go deeper.

https://www.reddit.com/r/bloodborne/comments/3ejq0l/bloodborne_faust/

 

[Gbraga]

I need to stop doing this >_>

 

[Gbraga]

I thought this may spark some interest lore wise. People need to check out this thread on reddit. Apparently Bloodborne is inspired by Faust(Goethes). Just as much as Lovecraft. We must go deeper.

https://www.reddit.com/r/bloodborne/comments/3ejq0l/bloodborne_faust/

Seems like a large stretch to me. Haven't seen any really original concept there that could point torwards an obvious influence.

Unlike that polish movie, that there's no way it wasn't used as a direct inspiration. Actually, it's so damn similar that if it wasn't a direct inspiration, it would be even cooler:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=172550486&postcount=10456

Now THIS is a similarity you can't argue against.

Also, this part: "anyways apparently faust's whole deal is that he wants ever greater sources of knowledge, the type of wisdom that the rational mind could never even begin to comprehend. sounds pretty familiar as well right?"

Not really, if we're supposed to be Faust. It's true for Micolash and Willem, but not necessarily for the protagonist.

Every concept he talked about in the thread is just vague enough to be also part of the lovecraftian lore.

You are a god for her, since your kind were the ones who created her on first place so its natural for her to love you and pray you. another mock of religion ingame

I've never interpreted it as mocking, personally. She basically says that it's natural for a creation to love its creator, but not necessarily the other way around, she puts you in the position of god to show that the fact that your kind created her makes no difference in how you feel about her, which is consistent with the whole lovecraftian theme of mankind being somewhat insignificant to those greater beigns they worship. In this case, the Great Ones. They're revered as gods by the Healing Church, but they don't really give a shit about them.

Spoiler

I do love my doll waifu though.

 

[DoubleTake]

I need to stop doing this >_>

You cant deny the similarities with Mephistopheles and the blood contract however. Keep in mind Faust came before Lovecraft and influenced much of what he created as well. I dont think its a stretch whatsoever to believe From took some inspiration from that source as well.

Also the character doesnt necessarily "seek out" knowledge but through his actions its what he inevitably does, and is required to do to reach out to the great ones.