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[Rurunaki]

After spending dozens of hours playing Bloodborne and beyond that reading wikis, guides, lore threads here and on Reddit, my final call is that the Bloodborne story is hopelessly obscure. From's ambient storytelling is fantastic and Bloodborne is no exception. The bits and pieces of the narrative delivered via item descriptions, when and where things are found in the game, or through snippets of incidental dialog, are all compelling and well crafted.

But what the fuck is going on?

Demon's Souls and Dark Souls both have ambient storytelling. Both games are filled with mysteries that the player is allowed to solve. That's all terrific. I'm far more engaged by hints and riddles than having everything laid bare through cutscene after cutscene. But both of those games do something that Bloodborne does not, and I think the former succeed while the latter fails.

Both Souls games explain the basic premise in the attract mode cutscene. Boletaria is overrun with demons, and the King is missing. Adventurers are braving the mist to discover what happened, find the King, and stop the demon invasion. Gwyn is the Lord of Cinder. He stokes the first flame which is crucial to civilization. The flame dwindles, so Gwyn went to rekindle it. He failed, and disappeared to boot. Men are turning into monsters. Find Gwyn, and kindle the flame.

Then Bloodborne. You have some disease. Yarhnam is where diseases are cured through blood ministration. Presumably the disease afflicting me is cured in the opening cutscene. Now I'm in a world of monsters, and instead of dying I go to the Hunter's Dream. What? Why is there a hunter's dream. What is the goal? According to the some text written on the floor of the dream (lol,) ending the dream is the goal. OK. After killing a monster that's apparently guarding a baby who lives in someone else's dream (what,) the Hunter's Dream can end. Or you can fight a monster who lives in the moon.

I know there are books worth of lore guides for Bloodborne, and some of the ambient storytelling is very immersive. But the Souls games have complicated lore with clear goals. Bloodborne has complicated lore but the goal is not well established. When the story ends, I felt very little sense of satisfaction. Everything is too obscure. I hope Form dials back the mysterious narrative just a bit for Dark Souls 3.

The thing about Bloodborne lore is that not one NPC really knows the eldritch truth. It is a direct allusion to Lovecraftian that the Old Ones are truly incomprehensible and people grows mad and find their own "truths" in trying to comprehend the Old Ones' wills.

This is why the lore in BB is all over the place. Every NPC/Faction you meet has their own "interpretation" to the story and it cannot be traced to a single truth. From the Powder Kegs to the League, they have formed their base idealogy in reflection to what they can only comprehend. In a sense, we the player characters have to also create our own "truth" at the end as a form of coping to the madness brought upon by the Old Ones.

 

[Orochinagis]

There is also a note on the cathedral tower that points outs the sky where the Kos and the sky is the same thing, is the same place where the female glish shell fell down of the sky and possibly is the place where the finishing hamlet is.

 

[Fancy Clown]

So is the Orphan of Kos a result of impregnating Kos/Kos's corpse with a human child?

The DLC continually builds up a massive secret that all these long dead hunters still fight to protect, so it has to be more than them massacring and experimenting on a fishing village right? I mean we knew they basically did stuff like that already. So I'm thinking it has something to do with the Orphan and the parasites maybe? The parasites can't be the cause of the blood scourge though because Hunters were at that place which means beasts already existed in Yharnam. I dunno man. The DLC is amazing and it has a lot of cool stuff in it (the snail person falling down into the first area and the water in the hamlet is seriously so fucking cool), but I feel like 90% of the story was stuff we already new, and then 10% stuff that just raises more questions lol. I was really hoping it would focus a little on the School of Mensis and what their rituals are all about, and especially on the great ones relationships to eachother (like why did an Amygdala take us to the Nightmare? Is Rom related to Kos and the Orphan? What about Ebrietas or the slug parasite looking thing you turn into?)

The Maria stuff was pretty awesome though. I wonder what's up with the grave in the Hamlet with the lumenwood flower on it, did Maria leave it there?

Hopefully people will dig up some more stuff in the DLC. So bummed we aren't getting another one, I'd gladly pay another $20 for something of this quality even if it didn't add more weapons.

 

[Sawneeks]

I'm almost done with the DLC, up to Orphan of Kos at this point, but a thought occurred to me when I looked around the boss room and tried to put some pieces together. I think it's possible that the 'terrible secret' that is hidden in this Nightmare is that members of Byrgenwerth killed Kos.

I mean, think about it. The Fishing Hamlet is supposed to be a place from the past hidden in the Nightmare and whenever the 'horrible secret' is discussed it is always in the past tense. When you come upon the Orphan of Kos for the first time it crawls out of a corpse, that of Mother Kos herself. She is already dead upon you finding her, only her orphaned child is left to fight you.

What connects Byrgenwerth to Kos' death is this line from one of citizens of the Fishing Hamlet when you first enter the area: "Byrgenwerth... Byrgenwerth... Blasphemous murderers... Blood-crazed fiends.

Murderers. Seeing as the Orphan of Kos is very much alive when you fight it the only thing Byrgenwerth could have killed....was Kos herself, the corpse you find at the end of the DLC. In her dying breath she cursed the hunters and their children and created the Hunter's Nightmare before falling dead.

 

[Neiteio]

After spending dozens of hours playing Bloodborne and beyond that reading wikis, guides, lore threads here and on Reddit, my final call is that the Bloodborne story is hopelessly obscure. From's ambient storytelling is fantastic and Bloodborne is no exception. The bits and pieces of the narrative delivered via item descriptions, when and where things are found in the game, or through snippets of incidental dialog, are all compelling and well crafted.

But what the fuck is going on?

Demon's Souls and Dark Souls both have ambient storytelling. Both games are filled with mysteries that the player is allowed to solve. That's all terrific. I'm far more engaged by hints and riddles than having everything laid bare through cutscene after cutscene. But both of those games do something that Bloodborne does not, and I think the former succeed while the latter fails.

Both Souls games explain the basic premise in the attract mode cutscene. Boletaria is overrun with demons, and the King is missing. Adventurers are braving the mist to discover what happened, find the King, and stop the demon invasion. Gwyn is the Lord of Cinder. He stokes the first flame which is crucial to civilization. The flame dwindles, so Gwyn went to rekindle it. He failed, and disappeared to boot. Men are turning into monsters. Find Gwyn, and kindle the flame.

Then Bloodborne. You have some disease. Yarhnam is where diseases are cured through blood ministration. Presumably the disease afflicting me is cured in the opening cutscene. Now I'm in a world of monsters, and instead of dying I go to the Hunter's Dream. What? Why is there a hunter's dream. What is the goal? According to the some text written on the floor of the dream (lol,) ending the dream is the goal. OK. After killing a monster that's apparently guarding a baby who lives in someone else's dream (what,) the Hunter's Dream can end. Or you can fight a monster who lives in the moon.

I know there are books worth of lore guides for Bloodborne, and some of the ambient storytelling is very immersive. But the Souls games have complicated lore with clear goals. Bloodborne has complicated lore but the goal is not well established. When the story ends, I felt very little sense of satisfaction. Everything is too obscure. I hope Form dials back the mysterious narrative just a bit for Dark Souls 3.

Read this

Also, while I'm in this thread: Haven't played the DLC yet. Need to do some stuff in NG+ before I go there.

 

[Noray]

Read this

Are you for real, read this 90 page document to make the game make sense?

If that's what it takes I think you're really just proving his point.

 

[Zocano]

Are you for real, read this 90 page document to make the game make sense?

If that's what it takes I think you're really just proving his point.

I think the thing is that people that love the Bloodborne/Souls/whatever lore/story/whatever have to understand is that for some people (read: most people) story is character interaction, character growth, and the bits and details of all those encompass. And the Souls games don't really do that. I mean not in a way that is actually engaging or moving or engrossing. Yah sure you'll get broad swathes of "this is how this character is" or you're told how another character is but that's all telling. It's literally all tell, no show.

I love picking up any Souls games' lore (and Bloodborne's lovecraftianess is especially engrossing) but I'd be damned to think that it's as engaging as something like that Last of Us where I got to see Joel and Ellie grow and understand the depth of Joel's inhumanity and Ellie's maturation.

 

[Noray]

I mean I don't disagree, I love the lore in these games and always read every item description when I pick something up, but Bloodborne is really hard to follow. Dark Souls 2 was almost as cryptic. I think it serves a purpose to some extent in Bloodborne but by and large I think they overshot the mark a little bit and just made it too obscure. It's fine to leave some elements, especially wrt the Great Ones, obscure, but basically every element of the game relies on educated guesses and filling in a lot of blanks. It's a bit much.

And yeah it's not story, it's lore. The story of Bloodborne is you kill a bunch of things and end a nightmare. Everything interesting in the world essentially already happened a long time ago, which is why it's fitting to call it lore and not story.

 

[Gbraga]

Still not reading the comments, unfortunately, just passing to say I'm really loving the DLC so far, still on the first boss, taking my sweet time, but there's so much stuff I want to know more about, trying to figure out the logic of the Nightmare, why the item you pick up from the Bleric Ceast's hand refers to it as the Hunter's Dream and how the Hunter's Nightmare relates to death in the waking world through the Madaras twins has been an immense amount of fun.

I think I'm like 10 hours into it.

And am I not remembering some building or are there really 2 Grand Cathedrals in the Nightmare, when there's only one of this building in the waking world? I compared them for quite some time, and the only difference I could spot was that the second Grand Cathedral, that I'm yet to reach, has a blue light coming from the clock. Weird.

Is the lamp close to Horse but Hole supposed to be the entrance to Old Yharnam or is it just assets being reused and I shouldn't think too much about its placement?

I don't think I've used the monocle this much in the main game, haha.

Goddamn I'm so excited to finish it and join you guys >_<

 

[Zocano]

Don't you dare say anything bad about Dark Souls 2.

Aldia is da GOAT.

I understand where you're coming from though. I feel like there are more logical leaps you have to make in this game's lore than you need to for Demon's Souls or Dark Souls.

 

[Noray]

Aldia is da GOAT.

Aldia speaks in nothing but riddles in the most cryptic way possible. I think he's actually emblematic of all the criticisms I have of the story delivery in these games, DS2 particularly. Like, "here's this NPC who could actually explain everything because he's super important but we're gonna make him talk like a riddle book because we don't want to give the game away." In Aldia's case that feels SUPER forced. It's the problem with trying to maintain an air of mystery but at the same time making arguably the most key point in the lore an NPC who speaks. It's why it's actually good that you can't like, talk to Willem in Bloodborne, or Laurence. Anyway this is somewhat of a tangent.

 

[RampantCereal]

Okay, I've just noticed that the dude from the intro is wearing an Old Hunter Top Hat, what could that mean?

 

[Fancy Clown]

I mean I don't disagree, I love the lore in these games and always read every item description when I pick something up, but Bloodborne is really hard to follow. Dark Souls 2 was almost as cryptic. I think it serves a purpose to some extent in Bloodborne but by and large I think they overshot the mark a little bit and just made it too obscure. It's fine to leave some elements, especially wrt the Great Ones, obscure, but basically every element of the game relies on educated guesses and filling in a lot of blanks. It's a bit much.

And yeah it's not story, it's lore. The story of Bloodborne is you kill a bunch of things and end a nightmare. Everything interesting in the world essentially already happened a long time ago, which is why it's fitting to call it lore and not story.

Nah, it's definitely story not lore. I think the obfuscated story in this case is absolutely justified by its lovecraftian themes, which are all about hidden knowledge about incomprihensible beings that will drive you mad. If you dont dig in to the story and try snd understand what's going on, it's unlikely you'll get the "true" ending and transcend the hunt. Gherman even tries to discourage you from piecing together what's going on by saying not to think about what's going on and just to kill a few beasts. And yea, much of the stuff happens before you arrive in the world, but you still play an active role in the culmination of those events and come across many of the major players. If story couldn't encompass things that happened that the main character wasn't involved with but discovers over the course of the narrative, then a bunch of mystery and detective stories would be called "lore". At the end of the day you still stop the bad guy and save the world (kind of), so you have as much agency as most characters. And I'm not sure what would be gained by setting the story back when all the research and stuff was going on, because that would just involve a bunch of cutscenes esxplicitly showing you what's going on, which is neither interesting nor scary, since the game is far more unsettling when in true horror tradition the really bad stuff is left to your imagination.

 

[Noray]

Nah, it's definitely story not lore. I think the obfuscated story in this case is absolutely justified by its lovecraftian themes, which are all about hidden knowledge about incomprihensible beings that will drive you mad. If you dont dig in to the story and try snd understand what's going on, it's unlikely you'll get the "true" ending and transcend the hunt. Gherman even tries to discourage you from piecing together what's going on by saying not to think about what's going on and just to kill a few beasts. And yea, much of the stuff happens before you arrive in the world, but you still play an active role in the culmination of those events and come across many of the major players. If story couldn't encompass things that happened that the main character wasn't involved with but discovers over the course of the narrative, then a bunch of mystery and detective stories would be called "lore". At the end of the day you still stop the bad guy and save the world (kind of), so you have as much agency as most characters. And I'm not sure what would be gained by setting the story back when all the research and stuff was going on, because that would just involve a bunch of cutscenes esxplicitly showing you what's going on, which is neither interesting nor scary, since the game is far more unsettling when in true horror tradition the really bad stuff is left to your imagination.

This is an interesting discussion, although it's partly just semantics, but the thing is that all the story really happens in your own head. In a detective story, as you say, it's about a character piecing together events. You could make that case for Bloodborne, but it's really entirely optional - it's the player that's doing the work, not necessarily the character, you know what I mean? I'm not saying there IS no story, but that the majority of the story is events that have already taken place. We're really getting deep into narratology, but I stand by what I said earlier. There really isn't anything to the story of the events actually depicted in the game, because all the key events that set up the world when you start playing have already happened. You're just walking through it. You're just another one in a long line of hunters summoned to the dream doing Gherman's bidding, unless you kill Gherman or the Moon Presence, which is really the only thing of note your character ends up doing.

I'm not saying any of this is bad or negative, I think it's cool that the player has to do that work (or not), because it's really hard to pull off good environmental storytelling like that, although you could consider item descriptions a form of narrative cheating - I look at it as a sort of narrator. I love talking and thinking about this though.

 

[dripdripsplash]

The thing about Bloodborne lore is that not one NPC really knows the eldritch truth. It is a direct allusion to Lovecraftian that the Old Ones are truly incomprehensible and people grows mad and find their own "truths" in trying to comprehend the Old Ones' wills.

This is why the lore in BB is all over the place. Every NPC/Faction you meet has their own "interpretation" to the story and it cannot be traced to a single truth. From the Powder Kegs to the League, they have formed their base idealogy in reflection to what they can only comprehend. In a sense, we the player characters have to also create our own "truth" at the end as a form of coping to the madness brought upon by the Old Ones.

I like this explanation.

The game seems true to the lovecraftian style in every way.

 

[Fancy Clown]

This is an interesting discussion, although it's partly just semantics, but the thing is that all the story really happens in your own head. In a detective story, as you say, it's about a character piecing together events. You could make that case for Bloodborne, but it's really entirely optional - it's the player that's doing the work, not necessarily the character, you know what I mean? I'm not saying there IS no story, but that the majority of the story is events that have already taken place. We're really getting deep into narratology, but I stand by what I said earlier. There really isn't anything to the story of the events actually depicted in the game, because all the key events that set up the world when you start playing have already happened. You're just walking through it. You're just another one in a long line of hunters summoned to the dream doing Gherman's bidding, unless you kill Gherman or the Moon Presence, which is really the only thing of note your character ends up doing.

I'm not saying any of this is bad or negative, I think it's cool that the player has to do that work (or not), because it's really hard to pull off good environmental storytelling like that, although you could consider item descriptions a form of narrative cheating - I look at it as a sort of narrator. I love talking and thinking about this though.

As far as the player piecing together stuff that's optional in their head, again I think that's what's great about it. The player "character" isn't really a character so much as an avatar for you, so in a sense you have some agency in the story in so much as you can play detective if you want and figure out the eldtritch truth for yourself, or you can just fill your bloodlust as a player (and hunter) and just kill everything in your path without questioning why, as Gherman suggests. I think its a really interesting way of leveraging the medium for storytelling. It's in stark contrast to The Last of Us (which I also love) which acts you to play as a character, and identify on some level, but ultimately that character is not you and will do and say things that you may not. Bloodborne is "pure" game in the sense that your avatar and you are pure 1:1 in terms of your involvement in the game world and story. I think there's a beauty to uncovering these events for yourself and then as a result, you accomplish what all these factions you've learned about were unable to do (transcend to being a Great One). And I think this narrative approach is so wonderfully suited to Lovecraftian horror, so for me it's a perfect marriage of game design and narrative.

Technically, item descriptions for background information is kind of narrative cheating I agree. I almost always HATE the trend of finding scattered documents to fill in on backstory that you have to pause and read. But I enjoy how this game does it because A) they are very, very short and really well written (they never over explain and have quite beautiful language) and B) they are directly related to items in the game that you use and have a physical place in the game world and often their location, after you read the description, is a story in and of itself and C) it uses a narrator's voice rather than being written by a character in the world. It's pretty different from arbitrary and conveniently placed logs that perfectly explain what's going on in that area that some character in the game just happened to leave for you to find, and are usually too long as well. It always takes me out of the story because it's terribly boring and contrived. A bad example of this is Bioshock (which is audio instead of reading, which is ever so slightly better than a giant wall of text). It tries to do a very similar storytelling style as the Souls games but feels super artificial and forced because it ultimately feels like you're walking through a museum and listening to the conveniently placed audio guide to tell you about the exhibit you're looking at, not exploring a living world and discovering things for yourself.

 

[Orochinagis]

There are like the Pale blood story, the Church Story, the Yharman story, the Phumerian story, the Healing Church story, the Choir Church story, The Hunters of Hunters Story, the Cainhurst Story, the Logarius Story, the Great ones farm on the nightmare story, the Old Hunters Story, the League story, The Adella story, the Arianna story, the Rom Story.



Making the story like that just the sake of speculation is boring, sorry. No wonder why the average player just go for the Lore videos and forgets about it later on. The games or at least BB which have the fewer lore on the world needed a more straightforward narrative to keep those players in the game or being interested on the world around them outside the wonderful art.

So is the Orphan of Kos a result of impregnating Kos/Kos's corpse with a human child?


The Maria stuff was pretty awesome though. I wonder what's up with the grave in the Hamlet with the lumenwood flower on it, did Maria leave it there?

Hopefully people will dig up some more stuff in the DLC. So bummed we aren't getting another one, I'd gladly pay another $20 for something of this quality even if it didn't add more weapons.

So far it looks like Kos was pregnant before or meanwhile the Church took her for studies, since the parasite are hers are not like the vermins they couldnt know about her pregnancy, maybe the great ones cant have babies on the human realm so far.

What if that tomb is Gehrman's ?

 

[avrophantasm]

Making the story like that just the sake of speculation is boring, sorry. No wonder why the average player just go for the Lore videos and forgets about it later on. The games or at least BB which have the fewer lore on the world needed a more straightforward narrative to keep those players in the game or being interested on the world around them outside the wonderful art.

Eh, in my personal experience, BB lore hunting is quite different. Lore videos take quite a long time to make, so before they are produced, there's a period of time when players all gather together to give their perspective on things and help tighten their understanding on what the solution to the mystery could be. Lore videos and write-ups dominate the interpretation of the lore for players who pick up the game after they've been published, but even then, they're a summary of what previous players have found and interpreted. I find that, even with these strong voices, individual players are still finding their own ways to piece together and interpret the lore in the Soulsborne games, reflecting their personal knowledge and unique perspectives.

Anyway, I like the detective game approach that all the Soulsborne games have. Once you know to keep your eyes peeled, it can be very engrossing. It all points to the philosophy that the Soulsborne games need to be approached methodically and require time to be digested, from its combat system and level mechanics down to its story. The community has formed around people who have come to understand its systems giving new players a helping hand and sharing common knowledge.

Now, I know BB has narrative flaws even in that light. It relies too much on elements that feel like they come from the outside. (Alfred's exposition, the Harrowed Hunter's direction, the DM's item descriptions) But there's some great instances of environmental storytelling and symbolism as well, which play into the strength of the videogame medium. Also, giving the player the role of the detective is the reason why a lot of players really get into the story and the world. The process of figuring out the mystery for these people is really rewarding and they can share what they're found with others who haven't looked as deeply as they did, and those can reflect on their playthrough with new understanding. This community dynamic is really unique and it generates really passionate fans; I'd be careful about sacrificing it for the sake of being more like other games.

 

[Fancy Clown]

What if that tomb is Gehrman's ?

Yeah that could definitely make sense

 

[DoubleTake]

Reposting a reply I made in the OT...I think we're missing something about the relationship between Gehrman and the Orphan of Kos.

Yeah I heard that as well. After beating

Spoiler

OoK

the Doll says that

Spoiler

She can hear the sound of Gehrman sleeping in ease tonight unlike other nights of hunt where he can barely sleep

or something like that.

I find this extremely interesting...Because Orphan of Kos does bare a striking resemblance to Gehrman. Orphan of Kos' wings in phase one look a lot like the top Gehrman wears in the back. They also have an extremely similar moveset. Even their weapons are shaped similarly....

Also for anyone done with the DLC listen and watch this video someone made. Could have very, very big implications for whats going on/really happened at the Hamlet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tmS1BDflCE

 

[Noray]

Speaking of tombs, isn't someone buried right behind where Maria is sitting, as well? Right before you walk out of the clock tower, you walk over what looks like a coffin in the ground with flowers on it. What's that about?

 

[Fancy Clown]

I think that's probably where Maria ended up being buried after (I assume) she killed herself

 

[Orochinagis]

I find this extremely interesting...Because Orphan of Kos does bare a striking resemblance to Gehrman. Orphan of Kos' wings in phase one look a lot like the top Gehrman wears in the back. They also have an extremely similar moveset. Even their weapons are shaped similarly....

Also for anyone done with the DLC listen and watch this video someone made. Could have very, very big implications for whats going on/really happened at the Hamlet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tmS1BDflCE

I dont think so, the Oprhan was dormant supporting the Hamlet nightmare as the NPC said have mercy of "the old man child" so the orphan maybe incubating there for a long time, somehow disturbing Gehrman's dream like some sort of high pitch frecuency like a constant bell ringing endlessly.

I want to believe the small white creatures you find on the Nightmare frontier are great ones too in a small size, or Kos is a reskin of one of them.

Speaking of tombs, isn't someone buried right behind where Maria is sitting, as well? Right before you walk out of the clock tower, you walk over what looks like a coffin in the ground with flowers on it. What's that about?

The Altar thing? looks more like a place to put your prayers on it, not a coffin compared to the ones to saw where you saw on the small chapels before that place and the Nuns encounter.

 

[Edzi]

Perhaps this has already been mentioned, but doesn't Kos sort of resemble The One Reborn? At least, in terms of its general shape. The humanoid figure on top could even be the Orphan, and it would sort of make sense that they'd try to bring Kos back to the physical world in Yahar'gul.

Also, I've noticed a lot of people mentioning in passing how they think the Yharnam we're playing in is a dream, but I've yet to hear what evidence there is for this theory. I've always considered the Yharnam we play in to be real, as well as the Yharnam we wake up in after the "bad" ending. This is the only way Djura and Eileen make sense. The only dream realms as far as I can tell are the Nightmares and the Hunter's Dream.

 

[Krusenstern]

I love how the game implies that the Fishing Hamlet is actually really located above Nightmare Yharnam (one of the Hamlet enemies falls out of the sky and crashes in the area where you pick up the Whirligig Saw) and the water is just some sort of weird cosmic Cthulhu fuckshit barrier.

It's a wonderful mindfuck. When you walk past the clock face you're basically entering a portal into another dimension of the nightmare.
When I look down into the sea and foundnd all the Yharnam buildings:

 

[dan2026]

Is there an idiots guide to the Bloodborne story?
I feel I have read a ton and still nothing makes sense to me.

 

[Newtype-001]

Is there an idiots guide to the Bloodborne story?
I feel I have read a ton and still nothing makes sense to me.

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1081118
^^^^
That thread has a link to a document

Spoiler

89

pages btw

The writer makes a clear distinctin between what the game tells us and what his own speculation is, a good read i think fans should go through at some point.

Or you can watch this
https://youtu.be/yvB1Vo87uK0

11min it's not as clear what's speculation and not but can give a quick run down. There's also a 30min one on the same channel which I presume goes more in depth.

 

[dan2026]

Thank you kindly.

 

[Napalm_Frank]

Is there an idiots guide to the Bloodborne story?
I feel I have read a ton and still nothing makes sense to me.

Some nerds find a Space Snail in their basement and decide it's a good idea to inject it's blood to themselves for science. Of course they get a nasty disease off of it and they form a victorian Gestapo to kill everyone infected. Head of the Gestapo gets trapped in a dream by a Moon Octopus cause it needs goons. It's ok tho since it brings his waifu doll to life in return. So you are a proxy goon of the Moon Octopus because it really wants you to kill the Spooky Cape for some reason.

Something like that.

 

[Fancy Clown]

Pretty good summary tbh ^^

DLC Question: why does the church use Brador the assassin to guard the Hamlet and Orphan of Kos when they could potentially just send him and some other heavy hitter in there to kill the Orphan and end the nightmare plaguing their hunters? Or do they just not give a fuck about the hunters and don't want to tuck with the Orphan because they feel about about fucking with his adoptive village and whatever else they may have done to him and his mother's corpse?

 

[Noray]

Some nerds find a Space Snail in their basement and decide it's a good idea to inject it's blood to themselves for science. Of course they get a nasty disease off of it and they form a victorian Gestapo to kill everyone infected. Head of the Gestapo gets trapped in a dream by a Moon Octopus cause it needs goons. It's ok tho since it brings his waifu doll to life in return. So you are a proxy goon of the Moon Octopus because it really wants you to kill the Spooky Cape for some reason.

Something like that.

I lol'd

 

[Fancy Clown]

I actually think the tombstone with the lumenflower on it might be for Kos. It doesn't have any markings on it as far as I can tell, and it's on the hill that overlooks her corpse.

 

[Tactics18]

So with the Fishing Hamlet being above the Hunters Nightmare,
it's safe to assume that the dripping/sea sounds that the patients at the research hall (my personal favourite area of the game) are hearing are from the hamlet?

 

[Fancy Clown]

The more I think about the DLC's story, the more I like it. It doesn't really answer many questions, but as a piece of storytelling it's really good. The crux of the story rests on the player's inherent desire to seek things out in then game and kill them. The Old Hunters made that mistake in the Hamlet, by senselessly killing innocent people/great ones in the pursuit of selfish self improvement and knowledge, so the Orphan/Kos --now banished to the nightmare realm--curses all hunters to be punished along with it. The harrowed hunter makes the argument that all hunters shouldn't be punished for their ancestors sins, and tries to end it (and fails), because it isn't a fair punishment. But isn't it? Hunters still haven't changed. They still kill at others behest without thinking of consequences outside of personal gain via blood echoes or equipment or promotion or whatever, and become drunk on blood from their enjoyment in the slaughter. And you're no better. The only way to end the nightmare is to in fact recreate the very same sins the Old Hunters were punished for, by slaughtering your way through the same defiled Hamlet and slaying the natural child of a Great One. Brador the Church Assassin, and possibly the Church itself, actually gain a sympathetic wrinkle in the DLC in that they are trying to keep hunters like yourself and the Harrowed hunter from repeating their own sins from ages past (well maybe the Church itself just wants to hide it to save face). Your final encounter with Brador he even says that nothing changes and taunts you to kill him. And of course you're going to, so you can get his own equipment and satisfying your insatiable curiosity.

The DLC really fleshes out the murkier morality of the player interaction with the story that was only hinted at in the main game with stuff like the suspicious man saying hunters are no better than beasts, and Gherman telling you not to think so closely about your task and just kill beasts and enjoy yourself (which the majority of the players do I feel, as they don't really dig into the story of the game and question their actions).

So with the Fishing Hamlet being above the Hunters Nightmare,
it's safe to assume that the dripping/sea sounds that the patients at the research hall (my personal favourite area of the game) are hearing are from the hamlet?

Yeah that's what I took away from it.

 

[Weltall Zero]

So with the Fishing Hamlet being above the Hunters Nightmare,
it's safe to assume that the dripping/sea sounds that the patients at the research hall (my personal favourite area of the game) are hearing are from the hamlet?

I assummed it was the sounds of their brains changing and liqueifying, but you might be onto something.

Another question: do the sunflowers (particularly the huge ones) in the Living Failures arena have any particular connection or symbolic meaning, outside the sun/dial thing?

Also, with the DLC we've seen quite some different things human beings can be transformed to. We have:
1) Via ??? (contact with Ebrietas?) -> Celestial children
2) Via blood treatment (from celestial children) -> Beasts
3) Via ??? (contact with Kos? Something more) -> Snail people (or "sneeple")
4) Via ??? (uhhh... contact with Kos?) -> Fish people (not 100% sure these were human to begin with, particularly as they look a lot like Lovecraftian "deep ones").
5) Via ??? (undefined experiments, possibly involving Kos? Blood treatment from snail people?) -> Bloated heads
6) Via Third cord consumption -> Kin (like Rom)

 

[Fancy Clown]

Another question: do the sunflowers (particularly the huge ones) in the Living Failures arena have any particular connection or symbolic meaning, outside the sun/dial thing?

They are actually called lumenwood, and they serve as a food source for the phantasms I believe. So they grow them in the tower to feed the phantasms, which then serve as conduits to Great Ones.

 

[Weltall Zero]

They are actually called lumenwood, and they serve as a food source for the phantasms I believe. So they grow them in the tower to feed the phantasms, which then serve as conduits to Great Ones.

Oh, wow, really? Do you remember where you read that bit about phantasms eating them? I always assumed phantasms lived underground (or undersea).

 

[Fancy Clown]

Oh, wow, really? Do you remember where you read that bit about phantasms eating them? I always assumed phantasms lived underground (or undersea).

From the description of the milkweed rune: "Those who take this oath become a Lumenwood that peers towards the sky, feeding phantasms in its luscious bed. Phantasms guide us and lead us to further discoveries."

 

[Orochinagis]

Some nerds find a Space Snail in their basement and decide it's a good idea to inject it's blood to themselves for science. Of course they get a nasty disease off of it and they form a victorian Gestapo to kill everyone infected. Head of the Gestapo gets trapped in a dream by a Moon Octopus cause it needs goons. It's ok tho since it brings his waifu doll to life in return. So you are a proxy goon of the Moon Octopus because it really wants you to kill the Spooky Cape for some reason.

Something like that.

Damm right, best lore explanation so far.

So with the Fishing Hamlet being above the Hunters Nightmare,
it's safe to assume that the dripping/sea sounds that the patients at the research hall (my personal favourite area of the game) are hearing are from the hamlet?

More like they can hear the great ones homeland since they live in some sort of ocean and so they are acting like a conduit to hear them or believe they are hearing the great ones.

From the description of the milkweed rune: "Those who take this oath become a Lumenwood that peers towards the sky, feeding phantasms in its luscious bed. Phantasms guide us and lead us to further discoveries."

I guess those Phantasm are the ones who Ludwing sees, saving him to lose his sanity and created the carryl rune in the process right?

 

[Auctopus]

After spending dozens of hours playing Bloodborne and beyond that reading wikis, guides, lore threads here and on Reddit, my final call is that the Bloodborne story is hopelessly obscure. From's ambient storytelling is fantastic and Bloodborne is no exception. The bits and pieces of the narrative delivered via item descriptions, when and where things are found in the game, or through snippets of incidental dialog, are all compelling and well crafted.

But what the fuck is going on?

Demon's Souls and Dark Souls both have ambient storytelling. Both games are filled with mysteries that the player is allowed to solve. That's all terrific. I'm far more engaged by hints and riddles than having everything laid bare through cutscene after cutscene. But both of those games do something that Bloodborne does not, and I think the former succeed while the latter fails.

Both Souls games explain the basic premise in the attract mode cutscene. Boletaria is overrun with demons, and the King is missing. Adventurers are braving the mist to discover what happened, find the King, and stop the demon invasion. Gwyn is the Lord of Cinder. He stokes the first flame which is crucial to civilization. The flame dwindles, so Gwyn went to rekindle it. He failed, and disappeared to boot. Men are turning into monsters. Find Gwyn, and kindle the flame.

Then Bloodborne. You have some disease. Yarhnam is where diseases are cured through blood ministration. Presumably the disease afflicting me is cured in the opening cutscene. Now I'm in a world of monsters, and instead of dying I go to the Hunter's Dream. What? Why is there a hunter's dream. What is the goal? According to the some text written on the floor of the dream (lol,) ending the dream is the goal. OK. After killing a monster that's apparently guarding a baby who lives in someone else's dream (what,) the Hunter's Dream can end. Or you can fight a monster who lives in the moon.

I know there are books worth of lore guides for Bloodborne, and some of the ambient storytelling is very immersive. But the Souls games have complicated lore with clear goals. Bloodborne has complicated lore but the goal is not well established. When the story ends, I felt very little sense of satisfaction. Everything is too obscure. I hope Form dials back the mysterious narrative just a bit for Dark Souls 3.

Great post. Exactly how I feel.

I'm coming to the end of the Hunter DLC and despite knowing the key moments, there's no narrative thread that links Bloodborne's events together, there's no reason.

There's ambient storytelling in Dark Souls such as...

"Artorias left Anor Londo to go push back the abyss. Sadly, he succumbs to it and becomes corrupted. You go back in time, put Artorias out of his misery and finish the job by killing Manus. On the way, you inform Ciaran that he died a hero."

And that is literally one narrative amongst many and it's succinct, makes sense and the whole story exists within the world without any lore-guessing.

However, Bloodborne...

"You end the ritual then touch Micolash to enter his nightmare. You're at the University, cool okay. You go through a doorway and enter the "Nightmare of Mensis", you make your way up through the castle and kill the host of the dream. Now to end the crying of the baby... wait is this still Micolash's dream? Kill Margo's Wet Nurse (Who's Mergo again?). Okay NIGHTMARE SLAINED, so the nightmare is over? And I need to bonfire out?

The Hunter's Dream is on fire.

what."

I know I'm being facetious but there really is no coherent timeline, narrative or anything. It's like a circular loop of history within Yharnam. But maybe that's what FROM wanted?

Some nerds find a Space Snail in their basement and decide it's a good idea to inject it's blood to themselves for science. Of course they get a nasty disease off of it and they form a victorian Gestapo to kill everyone infected. Head of the Gestapo gets trapped in a dream by a Moon Octopus cause it needs goons. It's ok tho since it brings his waifu doll to life in return. So you are a proxy goon of the Moon Octopus because it really wants you to kill the Spooky Cape for some reason.

Something like that.

Pretty good, lol.

 

[zma1013]

So why is it called Ludwig's Holy Blade but the sword he actually uses and appears to really, really like is the Holy Moonlight Sword? So which is it game? He can't have 2 favorite swords, it's impossibru.

 

[Fancy Clown]

I guess those Phantasm are the ones who Ludwing sees, saving him to lose his sanity and created the carryl rune in the process right?

That's as good of an explanation as any, since they are guiding forces and we don't really know they extent of their powers. I'm inclined to think the lights are somehow associated with the Moon Presence though, whether they are caused by phantasms or some other source I'm not sure.

 

[Eusis]

So why is it called Ludwig's Holy Blade but the sword he actually uses and appears to really, really like is the Holy Moonlight Sword? So which is it game? He can't have 2 favorite swords, it's impossibru.

Likely "Ludwig's Holy Blade" is a knock off meant to be a mundane replication of the Holy Moonlight Sword, note that they do look similar and essentially have the same trick (smaller sword becomes larger one), but the Holy Blade does this by the mundane way of snapping the sword into a larger blade/sheath, while the real deal magically transforms to a larger form.

 

[FF Seraphim]

Okay I am so god damn confused on the story...

So did Kos come first or was it the Moon Presence? I am assuming MP came and impregnated Yharnam and trapped her in the Chalice and all other Old Ones come from him/her/it...

 

[Fancy Clown]

Okay I am so god damn confused on the story...

So did Kos come first or was it the Moon Presence? I am assuming MP came and impregnated Yharnam and trapped her in the Chalice and all other Old Ones come from him/her/it...

We honestly have no idea about the relationships between Great Ones other than Moon Presence seemingly wanting Mergo dead. I just don't think there's enough evidence to really support anything beyond wild speculation.

 

[FF Seraphim]

We honestly have no idea about the relationships between Great Ones other than Moon Presence seemingly wanting Mergo dead. I just don't think there's enough evidence to really support anything beyond wild speculation.

Wait so MP wanted Mergo dead... wtf... so god damn confused...

 

[Fancy Clown]

Wait so MP wanted Mergo dead... wtf... so god damn confused...

Well, MP seems to run the Hunter's Dream and your take in the dream ends once you kill Mergo, so it stands to reason MP probably wanted it dead.

 

[Orochinagis]

Okay I am so god damn confused on the story...

So did Kos come first or was it the Moon Presence? I am assuming MP came and impregnated Yharnam and trapped her in the Chalice and all other Old Ones come from him/her/it...

There are various types of cosmic beings, the Kin who are probably the subordinates of the great ones, the relatives, the great ones, the pale moon and the ones produces by the church. The phumerian were the first civilization in contact with the great ones who the DLC expanded them as the kin which ebrietas could probably derivate from them. The moon presence could be a Great one being used or using the hunters.

Well, MP seems to run the Hunter's Dream and your take in the dream ends once you kill Mergo, so it stands to reason MP probably wanted it dead.

I believe Gehrman is hosting the dream but the moon presence is giving him power to sustain the dream like some sort of battery, anyway, the Hunter just killed mergo without knowing the church wanted the pale moon dead or moon presence motives, mergo was just protecting the baby.

Great post. Exactly how I feel.

I'm coming to the end of the Hunter DLC and despite knowing the key moments, there's no narrative thread that links Bloodborne's events together, there's no reason.

There's ambient storytelling in Dark Souls such as...

"Artorias left Anor Londo to go push back the abyss. Sadly, he succumbs to it and becomes corrupted. You go back in time, put Artorias out of his misery and finish the job by killing Manus. On the way, you inform Ciaran that he died a hero."

And that is literally one narrative amongst many and it's succinct, makes sense and the whole story exists within the world without any lore-guessing.

However, Bloodborne...

"You end the ritual then touch Micolash to enter his nightmare. You're at the University, cool okay. You go through a doorway and enter the "Nightmare of Mensis", you make your way up through the castle and kill the host of the dream. Now to end the crying of the baby... wait is this still Micolash's dream? Kill Margo's Wet Nurse (Who's Mergo again?). Okay NIGHTMARE SLAINED, so the nightmare is over? And I need to bonfire out?

The Hunter's Dream is on fire.

what."

I know I'm being facetious but there really is no coherent timeline, narrative or anything. It's like a circular loop of history within Yharnam. But maybe that's what FROM wanted?



Pretty good, lol.

I beg to differ, the BB history is plain simple but the backstory is the one who is causing the main story being complex.

The Bloodborne main story is you are a hunter and hunts things, the hunter himself/herself is doing everything without knowing why, like Gehrman says, just go hunting, thats all. simple.

You can say the Hunter destroyed the church or did great things but the guy didnt know whats happening, pretty few NPC and bosses give him explanation of why is he hunting, he is just like a bot hunting and killing , the notes are directed to the player as form of messages directly breaking the fourth wall unlike the chosen undead who was tricked to break the curse for the entire human race, or the undead in dark souls 2 to break his own curse, the world is telling him, not you to break the curse or let the world die.

I can also say there is good info, manus, the princess, the hexes and the repercusion of the serpent who tricked Oolacile and the art of manipulation the core of the souls which was saved by seath and its later use on DS2 with nashandra teaching Vendrick and stole the giants precious treasure and the consecuence creation of drangelic

 

[saturnine]

I beg to differ, the BB history is plain simple but the backstory is the one who is causing the main story being complex.

The Bloodborne main story is you are a hunter and hunts things, the hunter himself/herself is doing everything without knowing why, like Gehrman says, just go hunting, thats all. simple.

Eh, that's a way to put it. But if that's the case, the story is barely above a Mario game. Having the player do arbitrary tasks until NIGHTMARE SLAIN because it's the night of the hunt idk go kill something I'm busy with my waifu doll doesn't make for a very strong plot.

The issue with Bloodborne is that you never know when and why things happen / happened, and there's no way to know because there's a lot of stuff that can't even be extrapolated, with the ultimate convenient excuses being "the eldritch truth" and "it's a nightmare".
(Why does the Moon Presence want Mergo dead? Because reasons. Where is Mergo while we're at it? Why do we kill its nazgul looking "wet nurse" instead of it? Why are they at the top of a loft in a nightmare hosted by Micolash? Why does the nightmare persist when we kill its host? Was the nightmare a recent creation? Because the corpse we touch seems quite old. Was Micolash's goal to create the nightmare during the ritual of Mensis? Then what was the One Reborn fight? Because that seemed like a ritual too. Why did we need to kill Rom to break the veil of the secret ritual? For how long has this ritual been going on? Because last time we went to the unseen village it wasn't choke full of reanimated corpses.)

In the souls game, the story begins at a time when everything's already dead and belonging to the past. The motivations of the different characters are quite easy to infer. The rules of the worlds are firmly established, and the threads left hanging are inconsequential to the main plot. (Mostly. Dark Souls 2 was a bit iffy on that front.)

 

[DoubleTake]

Eh, that's a way to put it. But if that's the case, the story is barely above a Mario game. Having the player do arbitrary tasks until NIGHTMARE SLAIN because it's the night of the hunt idk go kill something I'm busy with my waifu doll doesn't make for a very strong plot.

The issue with Bloodborne is that you never know when and why things happen / happened, and there's no way to know because there's a lot of stuff that can't even be extrapolated, with the ultimate convenient excuses being "the eldritch truth" and "it's a nightmare".
(Why does the Moon Presence want Mergo dead? Because reasons. Where is Mergo while we're at it? Why do we kill its nazgul looking "wet nurse" instead of it? Why are they at the top of a loft in a nightmare hosted by Micolash? Why does the nightmare persist when we kill its host? Was the nightmare a recent creation? Because the corpse we touch seems quite old. Was Micolash's goal to create the nightmare during the ritual of Mensis? Then what was the One Reborn fight? Because that seemed like a ritual too. Why did we need to kill Rom to break the veil of the secret ritual? For how long has this ritual been going on? Because last time we went to the unseen village it wasn't choke full of reanimated corpses.)

In the souls game, the story begins at a time when everything's already dead and belonging to the past. The motivations of the different characters are quite easy to infer. The rules of the worlds are firmly established, and the threads left hanging are inconsequential to the main plot. (Mostly. Dark Souls 2 was a bit iffy on that front.)

Ill try to answer some of your questions.

1. We know that Great Ones do seem to have an influence on each other. The Moon Presence is drawn closer by Mergo's harrowing cries and by being closer has a beastly effect on the people of Yharnam who use the Blood of great ones.

2. Mergo is formless, just like her/his dad Formless Oeden, who impregnated Queen Yharnam.

3. You cant kill something thats not truely there. Also does it truely matter where in the Loft we are? I say it makes sense because the Wet Nurse is obviously a creature of the Sky. Adding to that Mergo is crying because The Wet Nurse, which must have entered the Nightmare in search of its own surrogate, is not its true mother. After we kill the Wet Nurse Mergo's cries cease throughout the game.

4. Nightmares are different planes of existence. Its not so simple as dying and waking up. Since they are things powered by Great Ones who exist on a higher plane they will continue to exist whether or not the host of the Dream/Nightmare is "alive".

5. My speculation is that no, the Nightmare of Mensis was not a recent creation. I believe Micolash/Mensis beckoned Mergo long ago and its cry, which was shrouded by Rom the Vacuous, drew the Moon Presence closer. Pushing the scourge of beasts into overdrive. Laurence has to create new Church Hunters, Old Yharnam gets burned to the ground etc.

6. Micolash was just seeking to ascend to a higher plane of understanding. From what we see happen to him, he achieved just that.

This is my take on how everything fits together. Granted not everything works out like how different Yahargul is the second time we arrive. My only explanation for the One Reborn is Im not so sure thats the work of Micolash and company. When we arrive at the fight we find pthumerian bell maidens summoning in the One Reborn. And when we first get kidnapped its by Pthumerian body snatchers. To me there was a second ritual being performed one that was recent and resulted in the one Reborn, but the beckoning of Mergo happened long before. As for why that second ritual is happening I have no idea.