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[JerkShep]

I'm not very good at this stuff but a couple of things I've noticed

- the corpses tied upside down in the Fishing Hamlet are shaped like the Hunter rune (you can see one directly above the first lantern)

- the description of the brain fluid is interesting: it talks about a brother who wanted to become a doctor, his sister wanted to help him so she let him experiment on her, leading them to meeting the Eldritch Truth. Could it be referring to Willem and Rom?

 

[Hybrid897]

Posted this in OT but probably more relevant here.

The carcass of Kos has a human face O_O, also anyone got an idea as to the overaching DLC plot?.

What I currently think is that Kos washed up on shore pregnant and messed the town up. The church found out, sent the first hunters and experimented on the townsfolk ( as per the accursed brew). The townsfolk worshiped Kos/orphan as a god pleaded for help/revenge against the hunters Kos/orphan obliged ( they are sympathetic after all) and cursed the hunters and all their successors to endlessly wander the nightmare after death.

I assume the shadow is some ethereal form of the orphan? Killing it finally ends the nightmare as we killed Mergo.

"The sky and the cosmos are one" did Micolash mean it literally? The nightmare's sky is connected to the sea and that is where Kos hung out.

I'm still not sure why Gherman is happy about another great ones death? I thought he was a puppet for the moon presence which wanted Mergo dead during the main campaign. Does the Moon presence want no great ones to have a child? Or did Gherman originally commune with the moon presence asking it for help against other great ones? :/

Also why does slaying the nightmare remove the giant clock face/sun? I have no idea about that one. Does defeating Mergo remove the blood moon? I can't remember.

So many questions as per usual, will take awhile for me to wrap my head around.

Edit: Extra thoughts I wrote on reddit...

Nightmare Yharnam and the hamlet are both located in the dream, as noted in a lot of the lake runes "Great volumes of water serve as a bulwark guarding sleep, and an augur of the eldritch Truth." I think that all nightmare locations are just separated by bodies of water. We see shipwrecks in the nightmare frontier aswell, perhaps the church thought they could traverse the water with ships? Obviously not the case. The research hall seems to be where the Church experimented and tried to artifically create someone who could travel through the water as the great ones do. Seeing as the boss of the research halls are literally called failures I assume they were unsuccessful until Kos herself elevated Rom.

As for the great ones, if they're similar to the lovecraftian deities, then they exist outside of spacetime. Kos dieing on a beach in one reality doesn't mean Kos is actually dead. The shadow form after killing the orphan looked exactly like the orphan just missing limbs. I think we were just freeing it body and spirit from the nightmare perhaps letting it go back to Kos? We see it looking out towards the clockface/sun if you die and come back into the boss room, maybe the orphan is trapped just like the old hunters in this nightmare.

 

[RiggyRob]

I haven't looked at this thread at all since I haven't finished the true ending of the game, and I'll be going through the DLC eventually at my own pace so I can figure out the details, but as a yes or no question, does the DLC explain who Gehrman's old apprentice is and why the Doll sometimes moves to his tombstone in the Hunter's Dream (i.e. the place corresponding to where you pick up the Old Hunter's Bone in the Abandoned Old Workshop)?

 

[jimmypython]

My theory is Hunter's Nightmare is the place the hunters end up going after got "killed" by Gehrman. That's why it is day time and the head stone to it is the same one for the player hunter in that ending. The "old hunters" in it are all the hunters before the player who chose to get "cut off" from the hunter's dream.

Basically, the DLC is about what happens to the hunter after the "bad" ending.

Hunter's Nightmare is made by Kos (The choir wanted to make contact with her, but instead got her daughter, Ebrietas)
Hunter's Dream is made by Moon Presence
Nightmare of Mensis is made by Mergo

The real world (not dream) is the night of the hunt (Yharnam, Forbidden Woods, Hemwick, etc., excluding the Nightmare of Mensis, Lecture building and Nightmare frontier).

So I guess the "bad" ending is canon then....

 

[Soulflarz]

So I guess the "bad" ending is canon then....

Except that'd be pretty damn weird, considering to access it you wouldn't have hit an ending (if done on NG...), so I'm not sure thats the explanation



^really happy I bumped this, glad to see Bloodborne discussion is back

 

[jimmypython]

Except that'd be pretty damn weird, considering to access it you wouldn't have hit an ending (if done on NG...), so I'm not sure thats the explanation



^really happy I bumped this, glad to see Bloodborne discussion is back

I don't think it matters if we got the ending or not tho. The player hunter got to explore the nightmare (dlc) is kinda of a "wandered off" situation.

Yes it is nice to re-start the lore discussion

 

[RampantCereal]

My theory is Hunter's Nightmare is the place the hunters end up going after got "killed" by Gehrman. That's why it is day time and the head stone to it is the same one for the player hunter in that ending. The "old hunters" in it are all the hunters before the player who chose to get "cut off" from the hunter's dream.

Basically, the DLC is about what happens to the hunter after the "bad" ending.

Hunter's Nightmare is made by Kos (The choir wanted to make contact with her, but instead got her daughter, Ebrietas)
Hunter's Dream is made by Moon Presence
Nightmare of Mensis is made by Mergo

The real world (not dream) is the night of the hunt (Yharnam, Forbidden Woods, Hemwick, etc., excluding the Nightmare of Mensis, Lecture building and Nightmare frontier).

So I guess the "bad" ending is canon then....

Wouldn't that mean that Eileen and Djura should be trapped in the Hunter's Nightmare too?

 

[JerkShep]

My theory is Hunter's Nightmare is the place the hunters end up going after got "killed" by Gehrman. That's why it is day time and the head stone to it is the same one for the player hunter in that ending. The "old hunters" in it are all the hunters before the player who chose to get "cut off" from the hunter's dream. .

I don't think so, Djura and Eileen are proof of what happens when you pick the "Sunrise" ending. They accomplished their missions, remember the Hunter's Dream in some way, but they can't go back, so they go on with a new purpose. The Hunter's Nightmare seems to more like a devilish purgatory for the hunters who failed and died during the hunt. They end up there because of the curse of Kos. My current theory is that the various areas in the dlc embody the sins of the hunters.

The first area represents the bloodshed that every "night of the hunt" brings to Yharnam. Since the main culprit for infecting Yharnam with the old blood is the Healing Church, Ludwig and Laurence, as prominent members, are there in their most twisted forms. It is centered around "beasts".

The second area deals with the other kind of sin the people of Yharnam perpetrated, the desire to ascend to a new state of existence, the transformation in "kin", henche the focus on their foolish experiments. I guess Maria oversaw those early experiments, as she hated the use of blood and searched for another way to "ascend". In the end though she lost her way and the experiments went wild. She was a hunter, or became a hunter after that, and she is clearly connected to Gherman in some way (maybe the umbilical cord in the true version of the Hunter's Dream is hers?).

The final area embodies the original sin and the source of the Hunter's Nightmare. You have to found another "newborn" and silence "its harrowing cry". I don't now where to place the events of the Fishing Hamlet exactly, probably at the begnning but I don't know how they are connected to the explorations of the Old Tombs under Birgenwerth.

I have to think about it a bit more lol, but the new content is great

 

[avrophantasm]

- the description of the brain fluid is interesting: it talks about a brother who wanted to become a doctor, his sister wanted to help him so she let him experiment on her, leading them to meeting the Eldritch Truth. Could it be referring to Willem and Rom?

Y'know, there was a theory going around that Willem and Rom were related. But the lore implies that the brother was a medical student, while Willem was the head of Byrgenwerth by the time they started discovering eldritch things...or was he? It's possible Byrgenwerth was studying the eldritch truth while he was a student there, and while he eventually became a doctor, when the time came he was elected to be the school's head...that's also possible.

I'm still not sure why Gherman is happy about another great ones death? I thought he was a puppet for the moon presence which wanted Mergo dead during the main campaign. Does the Moon presence want no great ones to have a child? Or did Gherman originally commune with the moon presence asking it for help against other great ones? :/

Also why does slaying the nightmare remove the giant clock face/sun? I have no idea about that one. Does defeating Mergo remove the blood moon? I can't remember.

...

As for the great ones, if they're similar to the lovecraftian deities, then they exist outside of spacetime. Kos dieing on a beach in one reality doesn't mean Kos is actually dead. The shadow form after killing the orphan looked exactly like the orphan just missing limbs. I think we were just freeing it body and spirit from the nightmare perhaps letting it go back to Kos? We see it looking out towards the clockface/sun if you die and come back into the boss room, maybe the orphan is trapped just like the old hunters in this nightmare.

Well, from Gehrman's dialogue we can discern that he hates being in the dream, even though he tries to give us the impression of being a helpful guide. He probably resents the Great Ones for keeping him alone and trapped in the Hunter's Dream. Anyway, for why the slaying of Mergo is a goal...the Great Ones are more like a Greek pantheon than a Christian one, so I assumed Great One politics were at play concerning the assassination of Mergo. Since Mergo is a Pthumerian/Great One half breed, perhaps the Moon Presence thought Mergo was a abomination.

I think the reason the broken sun goes out is that you've put the Orphan of Kos to rest and they can now rejoin their dead mother. I believe the cutscene that happens when you beat Rom implies an altered moon represents the nearing presence of Great Ones who are drawn by newborn children of their race. For the Great Ones, a new child is a great cause for celebration since their birth rate is abysmal, but the Blood Moon has terrible effects on the citizens of Yharnam.

Perhaps the broken moon represents Kos's presence, who can only watch over her child. Since Kos and the Orphan were sympathetic to the people of the fishing village suffering from the hunters, maybe it also represents the reality of the Hunter's Curse. When her child is returned to her, Kos decides to leave in peace, thus also ending the Hunter's Curse.

Kind of like Yharnam when you kill Mergo. Next time you meet her, Mergo has returned to her womb.

My theory is Hunter's Nightmare is the place the hunters end up going after got "killed" by Gehrman. That's why it is day time and the head stone to it is the same one for the player hunter in that ending. The "old hunters" in it are all the hunters before the player who chose to get "cut off" from the hunter's dream.

Basically, the DLC is about what happens to the hunter after the "bad" ending.

...

I believe it's true that wandering the Hunter's Nightmare is the fate of all hunters that fail to transcend the hunt and are given mercy from Gehrman. But I don't believe the effects are immediate. In the first ending, the sky is blue and the sun is shining. In the Hunter's Nightmare, the sky is grey and the sun/moon(?) is a fractured golden disc. Eileen and Djura both reference the Hunter's Dream when they kill you. Also, Alfred is categorized as an Old Hunter and says he used to be a Beast Hunter like you, which means that he used to be a Hunter of the Dream. It seems like Old Hunters have some time left in Yharnam before the Hunter's Nightmare takes them.

 

[RampantCereal]

BTW Who do you think is speaking when you get grabed by the Amygdala? Maybe Kos, since she seems to be female?

 

[The Xtortionist]

BTW Who do you think is speaking when you get grabed by the Amygdala? Maybe Kos, since she seems to be female?

That was my first thought. Kos is "cursing the fiends (hunters), and their children too" with the Hunter's Nightmare.

 

[Soulflarz]

Someone please make a timeline ;-;

 

[Derpot]

BTW Who do you think is speaking when you get grabed by the Amygdala? Maybe Kos, since she seems to be female?

Ooooh, I thought it was Lady Maria.

 

[Steez]

Holy shit at Yarham under the water outside the fishing hut on the ground floor, out in the lake, you'll see a reflection/the water in the depths. The implications are interesting. Are we in the past, looking at an underwater drowned city? What would have caused the water to get that high? Hmm...
In the more likely case it's looking into another nightmare, are we going through nightmareception?

I love how the game implies that the Fishing Hamlet is actually really located above Nightmare Yharnam (one of the Hamlet enemies falls out of the sky and crashes in the area where you pick up the Whirligig Saw) and the water is just some sort of weird cosmic Cthulhu fuckshit barrier.

 

[aly]

I love how the game implies that the Fishing Hamlet is actually really located above Nightmare Yharnam (one of the Hamlet enemies falls out of the sky and crashes in the area where you pick up the Whirligig Saw) and the water is just some sort of weird cosmic Cthulhu fuckshit barrier.

Oh wow, I never even made the connection to that.

 

[Dominic_Shade]

I love how the game implies that the Fishing Hamlet is actually really located above Nightmare Yharnam (one of the Hamlet enemies falls out of the sky and crashes in the area where you pick up the Whirligig Saw) and the water is just some sort of weird cosmic Cthulhu fuckshit barrier.

Holy SHIT! I never thought of it like that!

This game's lore is making my head turn inside out. x_x

I'd like to add my own small bit of speculation concerning the Gatling Gun Hunter you fight in the cave. According to the weapon's description, it's the weapon of choice of one of Djura's companions. Given that a) the hunter is hostile to you and b) the cave appears to be a shelter for beasts hiding from other hunters (I don't think it's a coincidence that the cave is bereft of light), it's my belief that this particular hunter is upholding Djura's mission to defend the beasts from those that would slaughter them.

In a nightmare world where the hunting of beasts never ends, I never stopped to think about what that would mean for the beasts until I finished off the Gatling Gun Hunter. Score one more for From Software's minimalist storytelling.

 

[The Xtortionist]

Ooooh, I thought it was Lady Maria.

Maria has the same voice as the Doll. I didn't recognize Kos' (?) voice; not sure if it's heard anywhere else in the game.

 

[Steez]

I'd like to add my own small bit of speculation concerning the Gatling Gun Hunter you fight in the cave. According to the weapon's description, it's the weapon of choice of one of Djura's companions. Given that a) the hunter is hostile to you and b) the cave appears to be a shelter for beasts hiding from other hunters (I don't think it's a coincidence that the cave is bereft of light), it's my belief that this particular hunter is upholding Djura's mission to defend the beasts from those that would slaughter them.

In a nightmare world where the hunting of beasts never ends, I never stopped to think about what that would mean for the beasts until I finished off the Gatling Gun Hunter. Score one more for From Software's minimalist storytelling.

Ha, I realized that it was one of Djura's companions, but I didn't give the beasts and his purpose much thought. You're most likely 100% right.

 

[Derpot]

I love how the game implies that the Fishing Hamlet is actually really located above Nightmare Yharnam (one of the Hamlet enemies falls out of the sky and crashes in the area where you pick up the Whirligig Saw) and the water is just some sort of weird cosmic Cthulhu fuckshit barrier.

Speaking of which, there are also boat's masts in the Fishing Hamlet. You can also see them in the Nightmare Frontier in the fog.
And in the Fishing Hamlet, there is also some kind of lighthouse. I'm not sure, but I think you can see it from the Nightmare of Mensis, if you look in the horizon. The other day, when I was looking at the environment, I saw a strange silhouette above the fog and I was wondering if it was a building or something, it looked like a tower.

Does that mean that Nightmare Frontier and Nightmare of Mensis are located above the Fishing Hamlet?
There is also the fact that you can see the Nightmare of Mensis castle from the Nightmare Frontier.
Does that mean the nightmares are all connected?

 

[Orochinagis]

Someone please make a timeline ;-;

The DLC is between the campaign, Kos/Maria or maybe the Orphan is pulling you out the reality of the main game where the bloodlust Hunters and the remaining of Healing Church hide from their main experiments.

Speaking of which, there are also boat's masts in the Fishing Hamlet. You can also see them in the Nightmare Frontier in the fog.
And in the Fishing Hamlet, there is also some kind of lighthouse. I'm not sure, but I think you can see it from the Nightmare of Mensis, if you look in the horizon. The other day, when I was looking at the environment, I saw a strange silhouette above the fog and I was wondering if it was a building or something, it looked like a tower.

Does that mean that Nightmare Frontier and Nightmare of Mensis are located above the Fishing Hamlet?
There is also the fact that you can see the Nightmare of Mensis castle from the Nightmare Frontier.
Does that mean the nightmares are all connected?

Nightmares are connected to the Hosts creators based on real locations of Yharman, Mensis Nightmare is the twisted form of the castle on Hemwick its current host from this night Micolash, Nightmare frontier host is Amygdala based on the Yharman frontier where the Giants live and the Hunters Nightmare is the twisted version of Cathedral Ward where the Chorus Church is leading to a Fishing village where the fishmen resides twisted and mangled from the healing church, its host is the Orphan.

 

[Azzanadra]

My theory is Hunter's Nightmare is the place the hunters end up going after got "killed" by Gehrman. That's why it is day time and the head stone to it is the same one for the player hunter in that ending. The "old hunters" in it are all the hunters before the player who chose to get "cut off" from the hunter's dream.

Basically, the DLC is about what happens to the hunter after the "bad" ending.

Hunter's Nightmare is made by Kos (The choir wanted to make contact with her, but instead got her daughter, Ebrietas)
Hunter's Dream is made by Moon Presence
Nightmare of Mensis is made by Mergo

The real world (not dream) is the night of the hunt (Yharnam, Forbidden Woods, Hemwick, etc., excluding the Nightmare of Mensis, Lecture building and Nightmare frontier).

So I guess the "bad" ending is canon then....

Is the "bad" ending really "bad" though? I'd rather be alive in the real world than live as some slug thing or forced to live eternally as a mentor for other hunters in a nightmare realm. The other two endings sound depressing, while the ending where Gerhrman "kills" you allows for your continued existence in reality.

 

[Cloud Strife]

I love how the game implies that the Fishing Hamlet is actually really located above Nightmare Yharnam (one of the Hamlet enemies falls out of the sky and crashes in the area where you pick up the Whirligig Saw) and the water is just some sort of weird cosmic Cthulhu fuckshit barrier.

Mind blown. Holy shit.

 

[Amirnol]

I haven't looked at this thread at all since I haven't finished the true ending of the game, and I'll be going through the DLC eventually at my own pace so I can figure out the details, but as a yes or no question, does the DLC explain who Gehrman's old apprentice is and why the Doll sometimes moves to his tombstone in the Hunter's Dream (i.e. the place corresponding to where you pick up the Old Hunter's Bone in the Abandoned Old Workshop)?

Spoiler

Yes.

 

[avrophantasm]

Is the "bad" ending really "bad" though? I'd rather be alive in the real world than live as some slug thing or forced to live eternally as a mentor for other hunters in a nightmare realm. The other two endings sound depressing, while the ending where Gerhrman "kills" you allows for your continued existence in reality.

In the Yharnam sunrise ending, I guess normality has been restored for the Hunter, but they're a ticking time bomb. Gascoigne's and Eileen's quest lines show that being shown mercy by Gehrman and returning to the Waking World doesn't get rid of the Scourge of the Beast within you or stop the Nights of the Hunt. If you stay in Yharnam, you'll likely end up like Henryk/Alfred/Gascoigne and die chasing the thrill of the hunt (insinuated by the Old Hunter's Bell description, and Alfie and Hen are Old Hunters) or turn into a beast yourself (a la Father Gascan). If you don't die or go beast, you're likely to be taken into the Hunter's Nightmare and trapped there. (like Ludwig, Valtr?)

But this Hunt was an unusual one in that a Blood Moon appeared. I think that it's implied that, after the Blood Moon rises, most of Yharnam's residents have died or turned to beasts because of it. So at least when you turn, you won't hurt anyone.

I guess the bright side to it is that, if you complete the DLC, wandering the Hunter's Nightmare when you die will no longer be your fate. The Hunter will probably pass on normally when they die... probably.

The other two endings have their bittersweet sides, but at least they free the Hunter from the cycle. (Hunter of the Dream -> Old Hunter looking for blood -> Beasthood/prisoner of the Hunter's Nightmare)

 

[DoubleTake]

This is a repost I made from the DLC OT.

My interpretation of everything thats happened in the game and what lead to the hunters dream is that Laurence, Willem, Micolash and the rest of Byrgenwerth along with the Old Hunters(Maria, Gehrman) arrived a the fishing village and ravaged the place. They performed experiments on/killed the citizens and then found the corpse of Kos on the shoreline. When they arrived, they found the Orphan within its mother. They killed it and took the umbilical Cord which Master Willem sought, to line his brain with eyes. For their sins the Curse of Kos was placed on them and anyone who called themselves a hunter. "Curse the fiends, and their children too, and their children, forever true."

Lady Maria, disgusted with that they had done threw away her weapon and renounced her life as a hunter but became disillusioned. She had no place anywhere, being a descendant of Cainhurst who chose Gehrman/Byrgenwerth over her blood ties. She takes her own life. And like all other hunters becomes trapped in the Nightmare. Gehrman, who was seemingly obsessed with her created the Doll in her image to quell his profound sadness.

With a Third of the Umbilical Cord Master Willem is able to ascend Rom to great one status, or kin(who knows really). The affects of the bug-like Rom are seen on the remaining Byrgenwerth scholars when we arrive, which is similar to the affect Kos had on the villagers in the Fishing Hamlet(straight up Lovecraft, that place). Micolash and Laurence are both there to witness the ascension. Sometime after the ascension of Rom, Laurence leaves Byrgenwerth, taking the knowledge of blood and 1/3 Umbilical Cord with him. I speculate Micolash left with him taking a third of the cord as well, but delved into his own work of attempting to beckon a great one, which resulted in Mensis being trapped in the Nightmare and Mergo's beckoning. Mensis' rituals drew the Palelood Moon closer, however it isnt until Laurence uses his 3rd of the Cord to beckon the Moon Presence outright, does the nightly Yharnam hunt reach full bore.

Back on track; Laurence founds the healing church and their hunters after Byrgenwerth and begins the practice of Blood Ministration. At some point Laurence becomes aware of the Hunter's Nightmare. My speculation is that Ludwig was aware of it and passed on the information to Laurence. How did Ludwig know? Well, his guiding Holy Sword is of the Moon. And what great one do we know is of the moon? The Moon Presence let Ludwig know of the nightmare whenever he closed his eyes and peered into the abyss.

[Next section is sorta piggybacking off of a post on reddit which does an excellent job of explaining the nature of the dream. https://www.reddit.com/r/bloodborne/..._central_lore/
When Laurence becomes aware of the nightmare and the hell that awaits all Hunters and himself he uses his 3rd of the Umbilical Cord to beckon the Moon. Perhaps the moon presence required a surrogate or just someone to carry out its plans(silencing the Nightmare Newborn's cries that Mensis beckoned?), in exchange for Laurence and the Hunters gaining salvation from the Nightmare/Curse of Kos. Laurence convinces Gehrman to remain with the MP in the dream, perhaps promising to reunite him with the woman he obsessed over, while he attempts to solve the problem of the curse. The Moon Presence being a great one who is sympathetic in spirit, animates the Doll. However it isnt the same to Gehrman, he resents the Doll, which would explain his whispered comment at the beginning of the game; "Even the doll should it please you".

Unfortunately Laurence transforms into a beast before he is able to find a solution to the curse and is killed(Some speculation points to Brador being the one who put Laurence down). His mission failed, the first Vicar is cast into the Nightmare along with the Hunters of old. "Oh Laurence, what's taking you so long, I've grown too old for this, of little use now, I'm afraid." Gehrman has grown to old for the Hunt the MP has asked for, so new hunters like the Djure then the player are found by the messengers and carry out the duties instead. In the end they are meant to accept death and be returned to the waking world.*

Micolash began rituals in Mensis which pulled the moon closer and eventually beckon Mergo with 1/3 of Cord. The rituals they perform are failures and success all the same. They managed to inadvertently create a great one(the brain of mensis) within the Nightmare and beckon Mergo. However, they spawned an abomination into the waking world(The One Reborn) and were pulled into a Nightmare.

At this point the Paleblood Moon is already having affects on Yharnam(even before Laurence directly beckons the Moon), however it is obscured by the Vacuous Spider in Byrgenwerth. The player arrives in Byrgenwerth kills Rom and the effects of the rituals and beckoning of Mergo can be fully seen in Yahargul/Yharnam. After this we kill Micolash, the Wet Nurse, and go to speak to Gehrman. If we've gained enough inisght(found all 3 thirds of Kos' Umbilical cord) and accumulated enough Blood we can overcome the MP and usher in a new age of Humanity. If not we just become another pawn for the MP and the hunt continues.

*Or we can accept death and be returned to the waking world, without memories of the dream. But think about this. Suppose the character never learns of the Curse of Kos and is not able to break it. After returning to the waking world, once they die, they are destined to be trapped within the Hunter's Nightmare.

Any thoughts? I feel like alot of this has already probably been covered in here hah

 

[TheBlackMarvel]

Maria has the same voice as the Doll. I didn't recognize Kos' (?) voice; not sure if it's heard anywhere else in the game.

If by Kos (?) you mean the voice narrating the curse thing, I thought that was Maria.

 

[Ferr986]

This is a repost I made from the DLC OT.

My interpretation of everything thats happened in the game and what lead to the hunters dream is that Laurence, Willem, Micolash and the rest of Byrgenwerth along with the Old Hunters(Maria, Gehrman) arrived a the fishing village and ravaged the place. They performed experiments on/killed the citizens and then found the corpse of Kos on the shoreline. When they arrived, they found the Orphan within its mother. They killed it and took the umbilical Cord which Master Willem sought, to line his brain with eyes. For their sins the Curse of Kos was placed on them and anyone who called themselves a hunter. "Curse the fiends, and their children too, and their children, forever true."

here's something I don't get about that. if we follow Micolash speech it was Kos herself who placed eyes on Rom. And how could he know what Kos is capable if they just found her dead body. It feels like he takes Kos as a deity, even if they don't really know what she is, because they just have her corpse.

A lot of things seems very pausible too. Honestly I forgot a lot of things about the lore lol

Btw, at first I though the Old Reborn could be the Orphan, because the human body on top of the Reborn looks like him, but I guess it's just a standard skeleton.

 

[TheBlackMarvel]

here's something I don't get about that. if we follow Micolash speech it was Kos herself who placed eyes on Rom. And how could he know what Kos is capable if they just found her dead body. It feels like he takes Kos as a deity, even if they don't really know what she is, because they just have her corpse.

A lot of things seems very pausible too. Honestly I forgot a lot of things about the lore lol

Btw, at first I though the Old Reborn could be the Orphan, because the human body on top of the Reborn looks like him, but I guess it's just a standard skeleton.

I assumed Micolash is from a time when the events have been obscured by history. Never thought he was a contemporary with the old hunters.

 

[Amirnol]

The female voice voice who utters the curse the first time you enter the Hunter's Nightmare is indeed a mystery to me. I've been studying it from the first reveal trailer and it really does not sound like Maria.

And speaking of that trailer, there's a very grizzled man's voice that starts around 47 seconds into it: https://youtu.be/vbGdIdHOO3I?t=47s

He sounds like a blood-drunk hunter, perhaps? I don't recall this voice or lines of dialogue in the DLC at all. Did anyone encounter this in the game? Did I just forget?

 

[TheBlackMarvel]

The female voice voice who utters the curse the first time you enter the Hunter's Nightmare is indeed a mystery to me. I've been studying it from the first reveal trailer and it really does not sound like Maria.

And speaking of that trailer, there's a very grizzled man's voice that starts around 47 seconds into it: https://youtu.be/vbGdIdHOO3I?t=47s

He sounds like a blood-drunk hunter, perhaps? I don't recall this voice or lines of dialogue in the DLC at all. Did anyone encounter this in the game? Did I just forget?

Having just listened to that and then her boss intro, I'm 90% sure it's Maria. Plus, she's the only person it makes sense for it to be.

EDIT: Though you're right, the voices are different but there's something about the accent.

Speaking of Maria, it's fascinating that you find her using techniques she despises with a weapon she discarded

Spoiler

possibly as a corpse

. I'm not even certain

Spoiler

what we fight is Maria anymore

.

 

[RampantCereal]

The female voice voice who utters the curse the first time you enter the Hunter's Nightmare is indeed a mystery to me. I've been studying it from the first reveal trailer and it really does not sound like Maria.

And speaking of that trailer, there's a very grizzled man's voice that starts around 47 seconds into it: https://youtu.be/vbGdIdHOO3I?t=47s

He sounds like a blood-drunk hunter, perhaps? I don't recall this voice or lines of dialogue in the DLC at all. Did anyone encounter this in the game? Did I just forget?

It's Valtr

 

[Kudo]

The female voice voice who utters the curse the first time you enter the Hunter's Nightmare is indeed a mystery to me. I've been studying it from the first reveal trailer and it really does not sound like Maria.

And speaking of that trailer, there's a very grizzled man's voice that starts around 47 seconds into it: https://youtu.be/vbGdIdHOO3I?t=47s

He sounds like a blood-drunk hunter, perhaps? I don't recall this voice or lines of dialogue in the DLC at all. Did anyone encounter this in the game? Did I just forget?

"The night brims with defiled scum, and is permeated by their rotten stench. Just think. Now you're set to hunt and kill to your heart's content."

The one speaking is Valtr, he can be found in Forgotten Woods and he says that line once you join The League.
He has only one eye so the blood-drunk hunters eye could be his missing one, not sure.

 

[jimmypython]

The item description of the eye of a blood-drunk hunters says "A hunter who goes drunk with blood is said to be taken by the Nightmare, destined to wander forever, engaged in an endless hunt. It is a fate that no Hunter can escape"

Yeah I need to re-think about my theory lol

Is the "bad" ending really "bad" though? I'd rather be alive in the real world than live as some slug thing or forced to live eternally as a mentor for other hunters in a nightmare realm. The other two endings sound depressing, while the ending where Gerhrman "kills" you allows for your continued existence in reality.

I agree. I guess the "sunrise" mentioned above is a better name for it.

 

[DoubleTake]

I assumed Micolash is from a time when the events have been obscured by history. Never thought he was a contemporary with the old hunters.

Well he was obviously present for the ascension of Rom so he had to be around.

here's something I don't get about that. if we follow Micolash speech it was Kos herself who placed eyes on Rom. And how could he know what Kos is capable if they just found her dead body. It feels like he takes Kos as a deity, even if they don't really know what she is, because they just have her corpse.

A lot of things seems very pausible too. Honestly I forgot a lot of things about the lore lol

Btw, at first I though the Old Reborn could be the Orphan, because the human body on top of the Reborn looks like him, but I guess it's just a standard skeleton.

I believe what ascended Rom was the cord Willem took or the parasites they discovered within Kos' corpse. Would make sense with Micolash's crazy ramblings during his boss fight.

"The grand lake of mud, hidden now, from sight" is clearly referencing the shoreline of the Fishing Hamlet. It seems that Micolash also knew that it had been drawn into the nightmare.

 

[TheBlackMarvel]

Well he was obviously present for the ascension of Rom so he had to be around.

Why are we so sure he was present? I assumed he had come across what

Spoiler

he believes

happened in his studies.

Not saying you're wrong, just wondering what makes you certain on it.

"The grand lake of mud, hidden now, from sight" is clearly referencing the shoreline of the Fishing Hamlet. It seems that Micolash also knew that it had been drawn into the nightmare.

Could also be referencing Rom's location.

 

[DoubleTake]

Why are we so sure he was present? I assumed he had come across what

Spoiler

he believes

happened in his studies.

Not saying you're wrong, just wondering what makes you certain on it.



Could also be referencing Rom's location.

He wears the Byrgenwerth Student Uniform, heavily implying he was affiliated with Byrgenwerth at some point. Also how else could he have gotten a hold 1/3 of the Umbilical Cord to beckon Mergo? I believe that Mergo's cries draw the Moon closer and we know that the Paleblood Moon has always been in Yharnam, only shrouded by Rom(There is a note in Yahargul that states, "Behold a paleblood sky"). That tells me Mensis sucessfully beckoned Mergo a long time ago and the Moon has been having an affect of Yharnam for awhile, evidenced by the Nightly hunts all the citizens have become accustomed to. "When the red moon hangs low, the line between man and beast is blurred".

And yes it could be referencing Rom figuratively. But I like to believe the statement is much more literal.

Ahh, Kos, or some say Kosm...
Do you hear our prayers?
As you once did for the vacuous Rom,
Grant us eyes, grant us eyes.
Plant eyes on our brains, to cleanse our beastly idiocy.
The grand lake of mud, hidden now, from sight.
The cosmos, of course!
Let us sit about, and speak feverishly.
Chatting into the wee hours of...
New ideas, of the higher plane!

Micolash is calling out specifically to Kos here and only using Rom as an example for what he wishes to happen to himself. We fight the Orphan of Kos on quite literally a lake of mud(at least a muddy shoreline) that is hidden from the waking world. Saying this we dont know forsure if Micolash knew or not that Rom was blocking the affects of the Mensis rituals, or if he even cared.

 

[TheBlackMarvel]

He wears the Byrgenwerth Student Uniform, heavily implying he was affiliated with Byrgenwerth at some point. Also how else could he have gotten a hold 1/3 of the Umbilical Cord to beckon Mergo? I believe that Mergo's cries draw the Moon closer and we know that the Paleblood Moon has always been in Yharnam, only shrouded by Rom(There is a note in Yahargul that states, "Behold a paleblood sky"). That tells me Mensis sucessfully beckoned Mergo a long time ago and the Moon has been having an affect of Yharnam for awhile, evidenced by the Nightly hunts all the citizens have become accustomed to. "When the red moon hangs low, the line between man and beast is blurred".

And yes it could be referencing Rom figuratively. But I like to believe the statement is much more literal.

Ahh, Kos, or some say Kosm...
Do you hear our prayers?
As you once did for the vacuous Rom,
Grant us eyes, grant us eyes.
Plant eyes on our brains, to cleanse our beastly idiocy.
The grand lake of mud, hidden now, from sight.
The cosmos, of course!
Let us sit about, and speak feverishly.
Chatting into the wee hours of...
New ideas, of the higher plane!

Micolash is calling out specifically to Kos here and only using Rom as an example for what he wishes to happen to himself. We fight the Orphan of Kos on quite literally a lake of mud(at least a muddy shoreline) that is hidden from the waking world. Saying this we dont know forsure if Micolash knew or not that Rom was blocking the affects of the Mensis rituals, or if he even cared.

None of that necessitates him being there though. In fact, we see someone get ahold of an umbilical with no link to Byrgenworth in the main game.

Spoiler

Arianna.

Again, don't get me wrong, he's clearly got an affiliation with Byrgenworth it just felt (to me) like he came later in the timeline and was trying to recreate the object of his studies rather than a first hand observer.

 

[Anuson.Phan]

Having just listened to that and then her boss intro, I'm 90% sure it's Maria. Plus, she's the only person it makes sense for it to be.

EDIT: Though you're right, the voices are different but there's something about the accent.

Speaking of Maria, it's fascinating that you find her using techniques she despises with a weapon she discarded

Spoiler

possibly as a corpse

. I'm not even certain

Spoiler

what we fight is Maria anymore

.

maybe the voice of the mother of the Orphan or someone from the fishing village?

 

[TheBlackMarvel]

maybe the voice of the mother of the Orphan or someone from the fishing village?

Be a bit weird for them to give a human voice to one of the Great Ones now. I guess it could be someone from the village

Spoiler

before whatever happened

, but that seems pretty unlikely if they're not even going to refer to that person once.

 

[DoubleTake]

None of that necessitates him being there though. In fact, we see someone get ahold of an umbilical with no link to Byrgenworth in the main game.

Spoiler

Arianna.

Again, don't get me wrong, he's clearly got an affiliation with Byrgenworth it just felt (to me) like he came later in the timeline and was trying to recreate the object of his studies rather than a first hand observer.

Imo Micolash coming later in the timeline doesnt fit with the scourge of the beast and what began happening to Yharnam. Without the Nightmare Newborn Mergo's cries the Moon wouldnt have drawn so close to the city and Laurence wouldnt have had to create a new faction of Church Hunters to battle the even more terrifying beasts. To me that says Micolash was around since the very beginning, performing rituals which had an Unseen affect on the city of Yharnam.

Even though I'm still convinced Micolash was present at the Fishing Hamlet because of his very specific dialogue, it doesnt really matter if Micolash was present. Whats more important is that he was a student of Byrgenwerth who obtained a 3rd of the Cord and used it to beckon Mergo which exacerbated the scourge of the beast.

 

[Amirnol]

It's Valtr

Oh of course it is... thanks for the reminder!

After killing Maria we get a couple new lines of dialogue from the Doll after returning to the Hunter's Dream. Has anyone discovered any other new additions like this? Like maybe chatting with Gherman or Willem with Laurence's skull in your inventory?

 

[JerkShep]

This is a repost I made from the DLC OT.

My interpretation of everything thats happened in the game and what lead to the hunters dream is that Laurence, Willem, Micolash and the rest of Byrgenwerth along with the Old Hunters(Maria, Gehrman) arrived a the fishing village and ravaged the place. They performed experiments on/killed the citizens and then found the corpse of Kos on the shoreline. When they arrived, they found the Orphan within its mother. They killed it and took the umbilical Cord which Master Willem sought, to line his brain with eyes. For their sins the Curse of Kos was placed on them and anyone who called themselves a hunter. "Curse the fiends, and their children too, and their children, forever true."

Lady Maria, disgusted with that they had done threw away her weapon and renounced her life as a hunter but became disillusioned. She had no place anywhere, being a descendant of Cainhurst who chose Gehrman/Byrgenwerth over her blood ties. She takes her own life. And like all other hunters becomes trapped in the Nightmare. Gehrman, who was seemingly obsessed with her created the Doll in her image to quell his profound sadness.

With a Third of the Umbilical Cord Master Willem is able to ascend Rom to great one status, or kin(who knows really). The affects of the bug-like Rom are seen on the remaining Byrgenwerth scholars when we arrive, which is similar to the affect Kos had on the villagers in the Fishing Hamlet(straight up Lovecraft, that place). Micolash and Laurence are both there to witness the ascension. Sometime after the ascension of Rom, Laurence leaves Byrgenwerth, taking the knowledge of blood and 1/3 Umbilical Cord with him. I speculate Micolash left with him taking a third of the cord as well, but delved into his own work of attempting to beckon a great one, which resulted in Mensis being trapped in the Nightmare and Mergo's beckoning. Mensis' rituals drew the Palelood Moon closer, however it isnt until Laurence uses his 3rd of the Cord to beckon the Moon Presence outright, does the nightly Yharnam hunt reach full bore.

Back on track; Laurence founds the healing church and their hunters after Byrgenwerth and begins the practice of Blood Ministration. At some point Laurence becomes aware of the Hunter's Nightmare. My speculation is that Ludwig was aware of it and passed on the information to Laurence. How did Ludwig know? Well, his guiding Holy Sword is of the Moon. And what great one do we know is of the moon? The Moon Presence let Ludwig know of the nightmare whenever he closed his eyes and peered into the abyss.

[Next section is sorta piggybacking off of a post on reddit which does an excellent job of explaining the nature of the dream. https://www.reddit.com/r/bloodborne/..._central_lore/
When Laurence becomes aware of the nightmare and the hell that awaits all Hunters and himself he uses his 3rd of the Umbilical Cord to beckon the Moon. Perhaps the moon presence required a surrogate or just someone to carry out its plans(killing the Nightmare Newborn that Mensis beckoned?), in exchange for Laurence and the Hunters gaining salvation from the Nightmare/Curse of Kos. Laurence convinces Gehrman to remain with the MP in the dream, perhaps promising to reunite him with the woman he obsessed over, while he attempts to solve the problem of the curse. The Moon Presence being a great one who is sympathetic in spirit, animates the Doll. However it isnt the same to Gehrman, he resents the Doll, which would explain his whispered comment at the beginning of the game; "Even the doll should it please you".

Unfortunately Laurence transforms into a beast before he is able to find a solution to the curse and is killed(Some speculation points to Brador being the one who put Laurence down). His mission failed, the first Vicar is cast into the Nightmare along with the Hunters of old. "Oh Laurence, what's taking you so long, I've grown too old for this, of little use now, I'm afraid." Gehrman has grown to old for the Hunt the MP has asked for, so new hunters like the Djure then the player are found by the messengers and carry out the duties instead. In the end they are meant to accept death and be returned to the waking world.*

Micolash began rituals in Mensis which pulled the moon closer and eventually beckon Mergo with 1/3 of Cord. The rituals they perform are failures and success all the same. They managed to inadvertently create a great one(the brain of mensis) within the Nightmare and beckon Mergo. However, they spawned an abomination into the waking world(The One Reborn) and were pulled into a Nightmare.

At this point the Paleblood Moon is already having affects on Yharnam(even before Laurence directly beckons the Moon), however it is obscured by the Vacuous Spider in Byrgenwerth. The player arrives in Byrgenwerth kills Rom and the effects of the rituals and beckoning of Mergo can be fully seen in Yahargul/Yharnam. After this we kill Micolash, the Wet Nurse, and go to speak to Gehrman. If we've gained enough inisght(found all 3 thirds of Kos' Umbilical cord) and accumulated enough Blood we can overcome the MP and usher in a new age of Humanity. If not we just become another pawn for the MP and the hunt continues.

*Or we can accept death and be returned to the waking world, without memories of the dream. But think about this. Suppose the character never learns of the Curse of Kos and is not able to break it. After returning to the waking world, once they die, they are destined to be trapped within the Hunter's Nightmare.

Any thoughts? I feel like alot of this has already probably been covered in here hah

Great stuff, I think you're spot on on the Byrgenwerth guys pillaging and experimenting on the Fishing Hamlet people, who probably worshiped Kos and the Orphan.

Since most of the events in the Nightmare seems to be from the past, or at least a distorted version of the past, maybe we should rethink a bit the role of the Nightmare of Mensis and Nightmare Frontier in the main game, or their place in the "timeline". Maybe what we are seeing is closer to the beginning of the story, when Queen Yharnam was supposedly found in the Labyrinth. I had to think about it and probably replay the game too lol.

 

[Disaster Nebraska]

Since most of the events in the Nightmare seems to be from the past, or at least a distorted version of the past, maybe we should rethink a bit the role of the Nightmare of Mensis and Nightmare Frontier in the main game, or their place in the "timeline". Maybe what we are seeing is closer to the beginning of the story, when Queen Yharnam was supposedly found in the Labyrinth. I had to think about it and probably replay the game too lol.

Haven't played all of the DLC, but in my opinion the Twisted Cathedral Ward felt more like a nightmare of the future, not the past. Can't speak for the other areas.

1) Hunters who go blood-drunk are sent to it for all eternity, implying the little pocket-universe continues on beyond the timeline of nighttime Yarnham.
2) The fact that it's daytime implies it is "after" the hunt in my opinion
3) The area is overgrown with twisted...somethings like big tree roots. The goo-filled tombstones also verify that this is a hosted nightmare, set apart from the normal timeline. I know Nightmare Frontier has those same go-filled tombstones, and I'm pretty sure Mensis does too. Overall, the landscape seems more decayed and broken down. Doesn't make sense that the Yarnham we know is "later" than this twisted-up city from the past. That's a lot of stuff to fix up lol
4) Certain enemies (specifically, the Bell-Axe monsters) are mutated versions of enemies from the normal world, implying (to me) that as time has gone on some of these monsters have continued to mutate and "ascend" beyond the forms you see in the non-DLC

Overall, the vibe I get from that area is that this "nightmare" is the result of what would happen if the hunt went on eternally with no end. The world would continue to become more twisted by both the influence of great ones and the blood while blood-drunk hunters roamed the streets oblivious to what was going on around them.

 

[The Xtortionist]

If by Kos (?) you mean the voice narrating the curse thing, I thought that was Maria.

That voice definitely isn't Maria's/The Doll's. I can't prove it's Kos, but we know from the NPC at the beginning of Fishing Hamlet that Kos is female ("Mother Kos") and some kind of curse was brought on by her wrath.

 

[Draft]

After spending dozens of hours playing Bloodborne and beyond that reading wikis, guides, lore threads here and on Reddit, my final call is that the Bloodborne story is hopelessly obscure. From's ambient storytelling is fantastic and Bloodborne is no exception. The bits and pieces of the narrative delivered via item descriptions, when and where things are found in the game, or through snippets of incidental dialog, are all compelling and well crafted.

But what the fuck is going on?

Demon's Souls and Dark Souls both have ambient storytelling. Both games are filled with mysteries that the player is allowed to solve. That's all terrific. I'm far more engaged by hints and riddles than having everything laid bare through cutscene after cutscene. But both of those games do something that Bloodborne does not, and I think the former succeed while the latter fails.

Both Souls games explain the basic premise in the attract mode cutscene. Boletaria is overrun with demons, and the King is missing. Adventurers are braving the mist to discover what happened, find the King, and stop the demon invasion. Gwyn is the Lord of Cinder. He stokes the first flame which is crucial to civilization. The flame dwindles, so Gwyn went to rekindle it. He failed, and disappeared to boot. Men are turning into monsters. Find Gwyn, and kindle the flame.

Then Bloodborne. You have some disease. Yarhnam is where diseases are cured through blood ministration. Presumably the disease afflicting me is cured in the opening cutscene. Now I'm in a world of monsters, and instead of dying I go to the Hunter's Dream. What? Why is there a hunter's dream. What is the goal? According to the some text written on the floor of the dream (lol,) ending the dream is the goal. OK. After killing a monster that's apparently guarding a baby who lives in someone else's dream (what,) the Hunter's Dream can end. Or you can fight a monster who lives in the moon.

I know there are books worth of lore guides for Bloodborne, and some of the ambient storytelling is very immersive. But the Souls games have complicated lore with clear goals. Bloodborne has complicated lore but the goal is not well established. When the story ends, I felt very little sense of satisfaction. Everything is too obscure. I hope Form dials back the mysterious narrative just a bit for Dark Souls 3.

 

[Disaster Nebraska]

Then Bloodborne. You have some disease. Yarhnam is where diseases are cured through blood ministration. Presumably the disease afflicting me is cured in the opening cutscene. Now I'm in a world of monsters, and instead of dying I go to the Hunter's Dream. What? Why is there a hunter's dream. What is the goal? According to the some text written on the floor of the dream (lol,) ending the dream is the goal. OK. After killing a monster that's apparently guarding a baby who lives in someone else's dream (what,) the Hunter's Dream can end. Or you can fight a monster who lives in the moon.

I know there are books worth of lore guides for Bloodborne, and some of the ambient storytelling is very immersive. But the Souls games have complicated lore with clear goals. Bloodborne has complicated lore but the goal is not well established. When the story ends, I felt very little sense of satisfaction. Everything is too obscure. I hope Form dials back the mysterious narrative just a bit for Dark Souls 3.

I do not disagree that Bloodborne is more complex than other Souls games (I like the story more because of that). The Lovecraftian influence makes it much more trippy and paranoid and disorienting, especially since whole sections of the game seem to take place in different dreams or different dimensions. Almost like if PKD wrote a Lovecraftian horror story.

But essentially: you come to Yarnham to be cured of some disease using the city's renowned powers of healing. You get caught up in the eternal hunt presumably as a payment and begin to learn of the city's various factions and how the city has fallen to this terrible state. You fight your way through the key players who've contributed to the city's current state and eventually confront the person who is responsible for maintaining the whole thing. You can then either

1) "die" and wake up (healed, I'm guessing) and leave it all behind you
2) replace the dude and be the new person who maintains the whole thing
3) kill the "true" force behind the hunt and ascend to a higher plane of existence

Everything in between is just lore about the in-fighting and rivalry of factions, certain people trying certain experiments, and so forth.

 

[The Xtortionist]

I know there are books worth of lore guides for Bloodborne, and some of the ambient storytelling is very immersive. But the Souls games have complicated lore with clear goals. Bloodborne has complicated lore but the goal is not well established. When the story ends, I felt very little sense of satisfaction. Everything is too obscure. I hope Form dials back the mysterious narrative just a bit for Dark Souls 3.

Gilbert mainly outlines the player's goals. Upon speaking to him the first time, it is implied that the player character asks him about Paleblood. Gilbert doesn't know, but directs the player to Cathedral Ward by way of the Great Bridge, as the Healing Church resides there and is the authority on blood ministration. After killing Cleric Beast, Gilbert suggests using the aqueducts instead. Following Gascoigne, Gilbert or Gehrman (can't remember which) directs the player to the Grand Cathedral and Amelia. Talking to Gilbert again, it's implied that the PC asks him about Byrgenwerth, and Gilbert gives a bit of information about it - directing the player there. Byrgenwerth leads to Rom, and after killing Rom the player receives a message saying to "seek the nightmare newborn", and the rest of the main areas are very direct and linear from here. This is really the point where the player has to piece everything together from item descriptions and notes (Yahar'gul in particular has many notes to find). A lot is left ambiguous, but I think the player has enough of a sense of direction throughout the game (unless they don't keep revisiting Gilbert - in which case they're fucked). The main goal of eating the three cords is revealed in the Lecture Building, which is a mandatory area.

 

[Orochinagis]

here's something I don't get about that. if we follow Micolash speech it was Kos herself who placed eyes on Rom. And how could he know what Kos is capable if they just found her dead body. It feels like he takes Kos as a deity, even if they don't really know what she is, because they just have her corpse.

A lot of things seems very pausible too. Honestly I forgot a lot of things about the lore lol

Btw, at first I though the Old Reborn could be the Orphan, because the human body on top of the Reborn looks like him, but I guess it's just a standard skeleton.

The healing church learned from Kos the ability to create realms of space or Nightmares, then the church experiments on their own scholars bein Rom one of them and another one on Ebrietas, also a bridge between the Great ones realm and Yharman that where possibly the amygdalas entered Yharman in the game's night

If by Kos (?) you mean the voice narrating the curse thing, I thought that was Maria.

Its a different distorted and old female voice I wonder who she is, maybe Kos?

After spending dozens of hours playing Bloodborne and beyond that reading wikis, guides, lore threads here and on Reddit, my final call is that the Bloodborne story is hopelessly obscure. From's ambient storytelling is fantastic and Bloodborne is no exception. The bits and pieces of the narrative delivered via item descriptions, when and where things are found in the game, or through snippets of incidental dialog, are all compelling and well crafted.

But what the fuck is going on?

Demon's Souls and Dark Souls both have ambient storytelling. Both games are filled with mysteries that the player is allowed to solve. That's all terrific. I'm far more engaged by hints and riddles than having everything laid bare through cutscene after cutscene. But both of those games do something that Bloodborne does not, and I think the former succeed while the latter fails.

Both Souls games explain the basic premise in the attract mode cutscene. Boletaria is overrun with demons, and the King is missing. Adventurers are braving the mist to discover what happened, find the King, and stop the demon invasion. Gwyn is the Lord of Cinder. He stokes the first flame which is crucial to civilization. The flame dwindles, so Gwyn went to rekindle it. He failed, and disappeared to boot. Men are turning into monsters. Find Gwyn, and kindle the flame.

Then Bloodborne. You have some disease. Yarhnam is where diseases are cured through blood ministration. Presumably the disease afflicting me is cured in the opening cutscene. Now I'm in a world of monsters, and instead of dying I go to the Hunter's Dream. What? Why is there a hunter's dream. What is the goal? According to the some text written on the floor of the dream (lol,) ending the dream is the goal. OK. After killing a monster that's apparently guarding a baby who lives in someone else's dream (what,) the Hunter's Dream can end. Or you can fight a monster who lives in the moon.

I know there are books worth of lore guides for Bloodborne, and some of the ambient storytelling is very immersive. But the Souls games have complicated lore with clear goals. Bloodborne has complicated lore but the goal is not well established. When the story ends, I felt very little sense of satisfaction. Everything is too obscure. I hope Form dials back the mysterious narrative just a bit for Dark Souls 3.

I think From tried too much to make the story complex there is too many aspects now to be mainteined with the Souls narrative, just give us cutscenes and narratives to fill the spaces, its getting annoying how the story is filled with unnecesary speculation about new locations instead of filling some gaps in the normal story, like holy hell why Ludwing was fused with a horse and became a cannbal or Bradon true activities asie from hunting the people who where a danger to the church

 

[DoubleTake]

After spending dozens of hours playing Bloodborne and beyond that reading wikis, guides, lore threads here and on Reddit, my final call is that the Bloodborne story is hopelessly obscure. From's ambient storytelling is fantastic and Bloodborne is no exception. The bits and pieces of the narrative delivered via item descriptions, when and where things are found in the game, or through snippets of incidental dialog, are all compelling and well crafted.

But what the fuck is going on?

Demon's Souls and Dark Souls both have ambient storytelling. Both games are filled with mysteries that the player is allowed to solve. That's all terrific. I'm far more engaged by hints and riddles than having everything laid bare through cutscene after cutscene. But both of those games do something that Bloodborne does not, and I think the former succeed while the latter fails.

Both Souls games explain the basic premise in the attract mode cutscene. Boletaria is overrun with demons, and the King is missing. Adventurers are braving the mist to discover what happened, find the King, and stop the demon invasion. Gwyn is the Lord of Cinder. He stokes the first flame which is crucial to civilization. The flame dwindles, so Gwyn went to rekindle it. He failed, and disappeared to boot. Men are turning into monsters. Find Gwyn, and kindle the flame.

Then Bloodborne. You have some disease. Yarhnam is where diseases are cured through blood ministration. Presumably the disease afflicting me is cured in the opening cutscene. Now I'm in a world of monsters, and instead of dying I go to the Hunter's Dream. What? Why is there a hunter's dream. What is the goal? According to the some text written on the floor of the dream (lol,) ending the dream is the goal. OK. After killing a monster that's apparently guarding a baby who lives in someone else's dream (what,) the Hunter's Dream can end. Or you can fight a monster who lives in the moon.

I know there are books worth of lore guides for Bloodborne, and some of the ambient storytelling is very immersive. But the Souls games have complicated lore with clear goals. Bloodborne has complicated lore but the goal is not well established. When the story ends, I felt very little sense of satisfaction. Everything is too obscure. I hope Form dials back the mysterious narrative just a bit for Dark Souls 3.

Imo the goal/what the player character accomplishes is fittingly obscure. BB is based on Lovecraft where the resolution of the main character's story arc isnt always so clear cut.

In Lovecraft humans cannot comprehend the motivations of the greater beings and its the same here in Bloodborne. We can make assumptions about why Moon Presence inhabits a dream for Hunters or why it pushes us to kill a Formless Newborn within a mightmare. Souls games provide explanation for the greater powers'actions(Gwyn feared an age of dark, Allant had a lust for souls) and draw more from Greek theology. Bloodborne great ones commune with humanity when in search of a surrogate or when explicitly called upon, but apart from that they simply exist all the while their very existence has affects on humanity.

There are different planes of existence in Bloodborne and this is shown by the different Nightmares. Some are safe havens, some are cursed, some are man made and some are reflections of events of the past. Its definitely very confusing but the pieces are all there to make an educated guess about the motivations and actions of the main characters in the game.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

After spending dozens of hours playing Bloodborne and beyond that reading wikis, guides, lore threads here and on Reddit, my final call is that the Bloodborne story is hopelessly obscure. From's ambient storytelling is fantastic and Bloodborne is no exception. The bits and pieces of the narrative delivered via item descriptions, when and where things are found in the game, or through snippets of incidental dialog, are all compelling and well crafted.

But what the fuck is going on?

Demon's Souls and Dark Souls both have ambient storytelling. Both games are filled with mysteries that the player is allowed to solve. That's all terrific. I'm far more engaged by hints and riddles than having everything laid bare through cutscene after cutscene. But both of those games do something that Bloodborne does not, and I think the former succeed while the latter fails.

Both Souls games explain the basic premise in the attract mode cutscene. Boletaria is overrun with demons, and the King is missing. Adventurers are braving the mist to discover what happened, find the King, and stop the demon invasion. Gwyn is the Lord of Cinder. He stokes the first flame which is crucial to civilization. The flame dwindles, so Gwyn went to rekindle it. He failed, and disappeared to boot. Men are turning into monsters. Find Gwyn, and kindle the flame.

Then Bloodborne. You have some disease. Yarhnam is where diseases are cured through blood ministration. Presumably the disease afflicting me is cured in the opening cutscene. Now I'm in a world of monsters, and instead of dying I go to the Hunter's Dream. What? Why is there a hunter's dream. What is the goal? According to the some text written on the floor of the dream (lol,) ending the dream is the goal. OK. After killing a monster that's apparently guarding a baby who lives in someone else's dream (what,) the Hunter's Dream can end. Or you can fight a monster who lives in the moon.

I know there are books worth of lore guides for Bloodborne, and some of the ambient storytelling is very immersive. But the Souls games have complicated lore with clear goals. Bloodborne has complicated lore but the goal is not well established. When the story ends, I felt very little sense of satisfaction. Everything is too obscure. I hope Form dials back the mysterious narrative just a bit for Dark Souls 3.

Have you read that 90 page essay on the story on Bloodborne? A lot of it is speculation, but it all seems like pretty well founded speculation that fills in a lot of the blanks the game leaves us with.