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Bloodborne Story and Lore Discussion Thread [Unmarked Spoilers]
- Thread starter GorillaJu
- Start date
That's the thing though, Bloodborne's story is convuluted in such a way that no NPC really knows what is going on. Unlike Souls, which you mentioned, has a solid foundation to which the NPCs are privy to what is going on with their world.
The only certain thing about BB is that there are Great Ones that is influencing the world. As to what they are (aside from propagating), no one really knows. It is all about the theme which in this case is Lovecraftian. I know it's a cop out using the eldritch truth as an excuse to convulute the plot, but that is what BB is all about.
We were never meant to find out the truth in all the things Bloodborne simply because the world itself does not know it. Maybe this was Miyazaki's idea all along. To drive the players mad finding the true nature of Bloodborne. It's a curious thing how the we try so hard to find the truth behind the game that it mirrors what the NPCs are doing in trying to find the truth in their world as well. That person who made that 90 page dissertation paper on Bloodborne can very well be this world's Micolash
Edit: I would also like to add that the central theme of Bloodborne is gaining knowledge. An example of this would be getting Insights from encountering bosses. Also the higher the insight, the more the hunter's mind grows "mad" as exemplified by frenzy damage and new effects/moves exhibited by the enemies.
That video makes a lot of sense and clears up the ties between all the characters. Then you have other characters like Ludwig, who seemed to have gotten caught in the middle of all this. The question where he asks if his work was fullfilled or all for naught seemed to point to that. I felt bad and lied to him.
There is another Grand Cathedral in Upper Cathedral Ward.
EDIT: Actually, when you get to the big hall before the boss room, I thought it was a separate one, but if you look down, you can see a lamp in the middle of the room. This is supposed to be above where you fought Vicar Amelia, I believe. So yeah, it's possible that there are more than one in the Nightmare but not in the normal world. However, I feel like both of them are supposed to be representations of the same place. Unless there is another Cathedral that I am forgetting about. One of the reasons is because in Upper Cathedral Ward, you also fight some strange plant/alien like creature, which is similar to Living Failures. They aren't exactly the same, but they seem related in some way.
One thing I just noticed which is really cool, is that the Upper Cathedral Ward and Cathedral Ward are connected visually on the map, and that if you go outside the CW you can see the bridge that least to UCW, the UCW building itself, and the path that leads to the area where you fight the mini boss fight before Ebrietas.
Napalm_Frank
Member
With Bloodborne 2 probably happening after Dark Souls 3 I wonder where they will take the story to. The current ''era'' feels kinda done. Maybe it's about Pthumerians or a completely new story/lore entirely. Lorecraft is cool but it would be also neat for them to go all the way with the gothic horror mode. Maybe vampires will be a big deal or something.
Bloodborne's plot only works because it's in an action RPG and killing things is the primary way of interacting with the world. Gerhman even gets a little meta. Go kill some beasts because that's what hunters do. Go kill monsters, this is a video game. Nevermind why, what do you care why? Monsters need killing!
And I tend to agree! Bloodborne is a lot of fun and I don't really care about Mergo, Mensis, Micolash, or ministration. The plot being incomprehensible is only a minor knock against the game.
Fancy Clown
Member
Mergo actually is the baby. The Great One you fight is Mergo's Wet Nurse, and you don't get "Nightmare Slain" until the babies cries stop a little bit after the wet nurse dies. While you aren't explicitly made aware that the MP wants Mergo dead, you are pushed in that path all along like seeking out Byrgenwerth, notes from Messengers about the Mensis ritual etc. And then after you kill Mergo the dream workshop is burning and Gherman wants you to submit because you have fulfilled your task.
Fancy Clown
Member
Yeah it seems likely that Oedon impregnated Yharnam with Mergo, and then the baby died (or was killed) and now resides in the nightmare until it gains strength.
I always theorized that the one reborn was them giving a corporeal form to Oedon, but you may be right that it's a host body for Mergo, because she/he would definitely need to be "reborn" after what happened with its last birth.
There is a lot to type about Lovecraft in regards to Bloodborne storytelling, but I'm feeling very lazy right now and also should probably be working. Instead of well thought out arguments, have these two hot takes.
1. The plot in most Lovecraft is straight forward. College types investigate a benign subject, discover something ancient and evil, continue investigating despite it being a bad idea, ancient evil becomes dangerous, college type hides or runs away, story ends on an ominous note. Like Bloodborne there is mystery and intrigue and unanswered questions, especially about the origins and nature of the ancient evil. Unlike Bloodborne, the plot is clearly laid out and the audience doesn't need to begin their questioning with basic stuff like, "where are we?", "what year is it?", "why do we care about any of this?"
And why is that important? Because a plot that's easy to understand gives the audience
solid ground upon which to explore the other mysteries. Guessing at the true nature of everything is overwhelming.
2. This is more nitpicky: Eldritch evil in Lovecraft have mysterious origins but understandable motivations. Cthulhu's ambitions are not ambiguous. He is evil. He wants to take over the earth. The inscrutable elder gods have less clearly defined goals, but they are also far removed from any involvement with mankind. We are beneath the notice of Azathoth.
Are the great ones in Bloodborne so aloof? Just the opposite! They are crashing in the spare bedroom of the Healing Church. They are fucking women! Having children with human beings and giant blue skinned human beings!
So again, some of the mystery is unearned. I think information is held back simply because it's easier to maintain dramatic tension with teasing. Every player has questions about Bloodborne, and yearns for an answer. But these mysteries are diminished a bit by there being no payoff. The answer is barely hinted at. Combined with a story that doesn't wrap up in a satisfying way Bloodborne gives me a serious case of narrative blue balls.
edit: mixed up my elder gods!
1. The plot in most Lovecraft is straight forward. College types investigate a benign subject, discover something ancient and evil, continue investigating despite it being a bad idea, ancient evil becomes dangerous, college type hides or runs away, story ends on an ominous note. Like Bloodborne there is mystery and intrigue and unanswered questions, especially about the origins and nature of the ancient evil. Unlike Bloodborne, the plot is clearly laid out and the audience doesn't need to begin their questioning with basic stuff like, "where are we?", "what year is it?", "why do we care about any of this?"
And why is that important? Because a plot that's easy to understand gives the audience
solid ground upon which to explore the other mysteries. Guessing at the true nature of everything is overwhelming.
2. This is more nitpicky: Eldritch evil in Lovecraft have mysterious origins but understandable motivations. Cthulhu's ambitions are not ambiguous. He is evil. He wants to take over the earth. The inscrutable elder gods have less clearly defined goals, but they are also far removed from any involvement with mankind. We are beneath the notice of Azathoth.
Are the great ones in Bloodborne so aloof? Just the opposite! They are crashing in the spare bedroom of the Healing Church. They are fucking women! Having children with human beings and giant blue skinned human beings!
So again, some of the mystery is unearned. I think information is held back simply because it's easier to maintain dramatic tension with teasing. Every player has questions about Bloodborne, and yearns for an answer. But these mysteries are diminished a bit by there being no payoff. The answer is barely hinted at. Combined with a story that doesn't wrap up in a satisfying way Bloodborne gives me a serious case of narrative blue balls.
edit: mixed up my elder gods!
I prefer the narrative of Bloodborne where we still have lingering questions (and might have to, gasp, use our imaginations or our own interpretations) over the narrative of Dark Souls 2, which was heavy handed and even had a live NPC at the end to explain the entire story. If DS2 was DS1, that NPC would have been long dead, maybe one of his items would have hinted at a conflict, and we'd have to glean the rest from the living memory we're plunged into.
As far as I'm concerned, Bloodborne's entire story has been told. Why does the Nightmare persist even after the Great Ones are slain? Maybe the damage is done and those realities don't collapse in on themselves, but they just can't continue to grow. The obvious answer is gameplay, because you don't want the player to be locked out of content that quickly. Maybe the nightmare does fade, but in time. Why isn't it fun to muse on these things and not know for certain?
Maybe there's an even greater Great One that we'll meet in Bloodborne 2 who perpetuates the dreams of lesser Great Ones until their rebirth. Maybe Annalise's eventual Child of Blood will be the future player character, and stands in opposition to this overarching invasion of fourth-dimensional beings. WHO KNOWS? And that's the fun of it. The day when everything is definitively answered is when the magic is effectively sucked out of the storytelling.
This isn't like Lost where shit is made up on the fly and there are story threads that never pan out or are forgotten, everything that is added to this universe plays some part in the story. This, and I'd argue DS1 and Demon's Souls, are very carefully crafted over a long period of time with incredible forethought. It's why Miyazaki is praised so highly, because everything he creates fits in so organically, and he knows how to tread that line of showing, not telling, but still leaving enough room to tell more (and for fans to want more).
As far as I'm concerned, Bloodborne's entire story has been told. Why does the Nightmare persist even after the Great Ones are slain? Maybe the damage is done and those realities don't collapse in on themselves, but they just can't continue to grow. The obvious answer is gameplay, because you don't want the player to be locked out of content that quickly. Maybe the nightmare does fade, but in time. Why isn't it fun to muse on these things and not know for certain?
Maybe there's an even greater Great One that we'll meet in Bloodborne 2 who perpetuates the dreams of lesser Great Ones until their rebirth. Maybe Annalise's eventual Child of Blood will be the future player character, and stands in opposition to this overarching invasion of fourth-dimensional beings. WHO KNOWS? And that's the fun of it. The day when everything is definitively answered is when the magic is effectively sucked out of the storytelling.
This isn't like Lost where shit is made up on the fly and there are story threads that never pan out or are forgotten, everything that is added to this universe plays some part in the story. This, and I'd argue DS1 and Demon's Souls, are very carefully crafted over a long period of time with incredible forethought. It's why Miyazaki is praised so highly, because everything he creates fits in so organically, and he knows how to tread that line of showing, not telling, but still leaving enough room to tell more (and for fans to want more).
Posted this in the Old Hunters thread but was wondering whether anyone had brought it up here...
There are ship masts above the reflection/vision of Yharnam in the fishing hamlet waters, does that remind anyone of the masts in the distance in the Nightmare Frontier?
(Don't know why the image is coming through so small, see here: http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net...orne-48.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150505111957)
There are ship masts above the reflection/vision of Yharnam in the fishing hamlet waters, does that remind anyone of the masts in the distance in the Nightmare Frontier?
(Don't know why the image is coming through so small, see here: http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net...orne-48.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150505111957)
Posted this in the Old Hunters thread but was wondering whether anyone had brought it up here...
There are ship masts above the reflection/vision of Yharnam in the fishing hamlet waters, does that remind anyone of the masts in the distance in the Nightmare Frontier?
(Don't know why the image is coming through so small, see here: http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net...orne-48.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150505111957)
The ship masts there seem to be the shipwrecked ships out past the Coast where Kos washed up.
This kind of leaves me to believe that Kos might have been "hunted" by whalers/pirates/fishers and washed up amongst the wreckage of a fleet.
Fancy Clown
Member
I don't think Kos was hunted. I think Great Ones are so powerful that only hunters with tons of blood echoes can kill them or other great ones. I think it's more likely that the parasites in her or complications with her pregnancy killed her.
The ships I believe were either Byrgenworths, as they had to sail to find the Hamlet, or because the villagers stopped maintaining the lighthouse after they became defiled and so ships would wreck along the coast.
Ah, yeah, that's more likely. Either way, it's cool that they put those in to "foreshadow" the DLC area.
It's weird. Every Great One loses its child, yet Kos' child survived when (because?) she died.
It's like a weird loophole in the rules of the Cosmos.
Fancy Clown
Member
Yeah it is very strange. I think that's part of why what the Old Hunters did there was so bad, the Orphan of Kos seems to be pretty much a miracle birth of a natural born Great One and I believe they killed it.
Hm, just thought of the Kos/Orphan surviving birth thing myself. Super interesting how Kos is the exception to the rule of Old One children being lost. Also interesting that the first "natural" Old One child we see is actually really humanoid in its appearance (though then again, Kos herself has a human looking face).
Fancy Clown
Member
It's extra weird that Orphan is really similar to Gherman. It uses his voice for the cry, and moves and fights kind of similarly to him in the first phase. At first I thought maybe the sin was that they did something really fucked up like have Gherman impregnate Kos's corpse to give birth to that, but that doesn't make sense because then they'd for sure just keep the corpse around have people fucking it all day to make new human/great one babies.
Instead, I think it's linked to Gherman because Gherman most likely killed it in the waking world and probably did the most villager killing. So in the nightmare when it's birthed again it takes on some characteristics of its powerful enemy. Because when you beat the Orphan in that form you don't actually kill it. You don't slay the nightmare until you stab the shadowy figure standing on Kos's corpse.
There's also the possibility that the Orphan only ever existed in the nightmare and was born there as part of Kos's retribution for the slaughter and torture of her worshippers.
Fancy Clown
Member
Either the Orphan's true form/spirit/essence, or a physical manifestation of Kos's curse are my best guesses.
I spent a while looking at Kos, and its "face" just seemed to be a neck with an opening and a bunch of tentacle tongues. It did have human-like arms, though.
One other thing I noticed is that the transformed "acolyte" people praying outside of Kos's boss door resembled sperm, all heading/facing toward the big bright sun "egg". When the Orphan is slain, the sun disappears. I never went back to check if the acolytes also disappear. If this was the imagery they were going for, it would make sense considering it's all about impregnation and rebirth.
Fancy Clown
Member
It actually has a human looking nose and mouth, but its eyes are covered.
Dominic_Shade
Member
Thought it'd be nice to mention that in the latest episode of his podcast series, EpicNameBro revealed that part of his responsibilities in working on the Old Hunters guide from Future Press was putting together a Lore section. So anyone purchasing the guide has that to look forward to.
Orochinagis
Member
Micolash was summoning a great one using the people on yahagul, I think he failed since the maidens summoned that big mass of people in that fake moon.
I think is the orphan spiritual form, you just return it to the "ocean".
It would probably the other nightmare point of view, since the Nightmare frontier is like floating on the air, and the clocktower is acting like a lighthouse opening a portal to the fishing area, both on the upper part like a illusion to be floating on the sky of yharman, I wonder what would happen if the clocktower gets shutdown, the door could close and nightmare would be lost in time and space like the lecturing hall
I think is the orphan spiritual form, you just return it to the "ocean".
Posted this in the Old Hunters thread but was wondering whether anyone had brought it up here...
There are ship masts above the reflection/vision of Yharnam in the fishing hamlet waters, does that remind anyone of the masts in the distance in the Nightmare Frontier?
(Don't know why the image is coming through so small, see here: http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net...orne-48.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150505111957)
It would probably the other nightmare point of view, since the Nightmare frontier is like floating on the air, and the clocktower is acting like a lighthouse opening a portal to the fishing area, both on the upper part like a illusion to be floating on the sky of yharman, I wonder what would happen if the clocktower gets shutdown, the door could close and nightmare would be lost in time and space like the lecturing hall
Napalm_Frank
Member
GwyndolinCinder
Member
I thought it was a given that the Maria had been taking flowers to its grave and it is kos's grave
Edit: maybe the grave is for big G,
Either way I believe the grave is the same as the one we use to enter the dlc, the one the doll is often seen by
That'd explain why Maria tells the player "A corpse...should be left well alone" messing with the corpse of Kos was the origin of their nightmare and there must be a link between between Gherman and Maria as Gherman molds the doll in her image.
Yes. You need to hit the shadowy figure that appears on Kos's body after you kill the orphan.
Orochinagis
Member
I dunno, Maria tells you that because the prompt action is "touch the corpse" on her, possibly because maria is already dead, just resting and doesnt allow you to take the clocktower lens in her possesion.
Fancy Clown
Member
It refers to both, since she is guarding the Hamlet that holds Kos's corpse as well as the fact she is a corpse too.
I think they probably just killed the orphan and then just took blood samples and parasites and generally just dissected and desecrated Kos's corpse. The link between Gherman and Maria I believe is just that he was obsessively fond of her so after she died he built the doll. Moon Presence saw how he was able to kill a great one (the orphan) and how he wanted Maria back so it came down and gave him the hunters dream, where he could train other hunters to kill great ones for the MP in return for bringing the Maria doll to life. Of course, it wasn't what Gherman bargained for at all, and the doll is a poor imitation of the real deal, and Gherman ends up being trapped there unless you kill him.
Orochinagis
Member
I think is the clocktower as a portal, it was hinted first
But on the third area is more evident is the clocktower face since you jump from there .
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Since the game flat out tells you that the Moon Presence came to our world because Laurence and his associates beckoned him, I am inclined to believe that their original purpose was to find a Great One that can provide them a way to escape the Kos' curse.
Orochinagis
Member
That makes sense since Kos would be the great one who cursed Yharman
Fancy Clown
Member
But would they know about the curse yet if none of them were dead/trapped in it?
iRAWRasaurus
Banned
Didnt know that, always though it was strange that shadow was there.
Orochinagis
Member
Ailing loran chalice?
I kind of like the vampire thing that this game hints at, and it would be cool if they went further in that direction. It's hard to say if there will be a Bloodborne 2, though. I hope so. Going back to the slower Dark Souls combat makes me feel like this is a good alternative to have for a slightly different focus.
Fancy Clown
Member
Isn't that just mentioning the scourge of the beast though? Not the specific hunter's nightmare curse that Kos/the orphan casts.
Orochinagis
Member
Well, there is no explanating of how many time they spend using the hunters nightmare. The Orphan was dormant the entire time after the Church was done with Kos to do their stuff,
Fancy Clown
Member
I don't think Laurence could have beckoned the MP after he was sent to the nightmare though, because he was killed in the real world as a beast, and is a beast in the nightmare. And he strikes me as kind of a selfish individual so I doubt he'd try to beckon a Great One on behalf of any hunters that may be stuck there before he was sent there.
What if MP is one of the reasons the Hunter's Nightmare still exists, he sends Hunters to kill other Great Ones, it wouldn't be too crazy for him to backstab them too, also makes it less likely for a Hunter to kill it.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
I don't think Kos cursed Yharnam per se, just the Hunters, due to what Laurence, Ludwig, Maria, Gherman, etc, did. What happened to Yharnam, if we were to believe Alfred, was because a "Holy Medium" was found inside the Chalice Dungeon (which may refer to Ebrietas or the Yharnam Queen--I tend to think it was Ebrietas) who then became the source of the Healing Blood, led to the foundation of Healing Church, and finally led to the scourge of the beasts.
I think the Kos incident in the Fishing Hamlet was an entirely different set of circumstances since in here I am quite positive Gherman has already become a Hunter--with his own disciples, even, which was Maria and Ludwig (so the entire Hunter structure has already been established). Laurence, being an arsehole that he is, ordered the slaughtering and experimentation of the entire Fishing Hamlet which led to Maria abandoning her weapon in disgust before killing herself, which led to Gherman's depression, etc. I think right about this time Laurence found out about the Kos' curse and what awaits him after his death (I don't think he cares about other Hunter, just himself), and thus tried to summon the Moon Presence/Paleblood to possibly finding a way out of it. Unlucky for him, he succumbed to the scourge before he managed to do it, and the Moon Presence apparently has different plan/purpose altogether.
Playing the DS3 test cemented my opinion that Bloodborne is the pinnacle of the Souls engine games. Still love them all though.
But on the third area is more evident is the clocktower face since you jump from there .
If you're claiming that where you jump from is where the sun is, it's in the opposite direction.
The Xtortionist
Member
I like to think the sun is a representation of Kos. That's why the Orphan looks at it and cries before the fight.
Not sure why it wouldn't look at the literal embodiment of Kos it just crawled out of. I thought it might be weeping due to something to do with the moon/blood moon phase etc.