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Boeing Whines; Trump Issues 300% Tariff; Bombardier & Airbus Partner, Build Jet in US

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maabus1999

Member
New twist...what happens to this plant mentioned a month ago when this all started:

Bombardier has a plant in Northern Ireland that employs 4,000 people. The firm says jobs could go if Bombardier is negatively impacted by Washington-imposed taxes.

Northern Irish support is currently crucial to the stability of a fragile U.K. coalition government and the situation has forced London into strong rhetoric.
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I'm seeing May taking a loss here possibly no matter what happens now...

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/17/boeing-and-bombardier-next-steps-in-the-trade-battle.html
 
C

catmincer

Member
GoldenEye 007 said:
And Boeing bitching about a plane in a category they don’t even provide for or compete in.
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The stretched c series 500 would be a huge threat to the 737 Max-8 though if released. The operating costs are lower and it's way more fuel efficient than the Boeing option. Airbus seem to have given up on the A319 too so a stretched series is actually a really good idea now.
 
A

Armaros

Member
PdotMichael said:
No, not really. Foreign companies are profiting from this deal while the one American company is losing business deals. Extra points for giving Airbus, Boeing's big rival, a new plane basically for free.
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And the Airbus plants before were making their much worse competitor to the C-Series. And all the US airliners were lining to buy the C-Series. For how good they are and as an FU to Boeing.
 
P

prophetvx

Member
VeeP said:
Kinda sucks for Canada, but at least they have a stable political climate unlike us/US :(. Oh well, I'm glad the US got more jobs, and glad Boeing has more competition now.
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Why does it suck for Canada?

It has just massively increased their production scale and selling markets. Bombardier won't lose money on this, they'll make less per plane but they could end up making a lot more of them and have the weight of Airbus supporting them.

The net result of this is marginal if any jobs created in the US under airbus as an existing assembly line is just being re-tooled, profits heading overseas and Boeing now has a hefty competitor in a space that really posed no threat to them.

Boeing and the US government got manoeuvred but Trump will be able to claim that it created jobs, which it likely won't.
 
N

numble

Member
PdotMichael said:
No, not really. Foreign companies are profiting from this deal while the one American company is losing business deals. Extra points for giving Airbus, Boeing's big rival, a new plane basically for free.

Airbus

- got a new plane
- got deals in a growing market segment
- got deals in Boeing's home turf
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He’s shown he’s perfectly happy to be against American businesses, especially if they don’t create American jobs. He has threatened tariffs against Apple and Carrier, for instance. He also has touted investments by foreign companies in the US, such as SoftBank and Foxconn.
 
M

maabus1999

Member
Armaros said:
And the Airbus plants before were making their much worse competitor to the C-Series. And all the US airliners are lining to buy the C-Series. For how good they are and as an FU to Boeing.
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The Airbus plant making the 319 I believe was in Germany; hopefully they retool that plant but we'll see.

As for the US airline comment, only Delta has an order currently. But yes it does hurt Boeing slightly, but beyond the 737 MAX Boeing doesn't really compete against most of the planes Bombadier makes. Really is just Boeing whining for the future.
 
M

maabus1999

Member
prophetvx said:
Why does it suck for Canada?

It has just massively increased their production scale and selling markets. Bombardier won't lose money on this, they'll make less per plane but they could end up making a lot more of them and have the weight of Airbus supporting them.

The net result of this is marginal if any jobs created in the US under airbus as an existing assembly line is just being re-tooled, profits heading overseas and Boeing now has a hefty competitor in a space that really posed no threat to them.

Boeing and the US government got manoeuvred but Trump will be able to claim that it created jobs, which it likely won't.
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Already answered this earlier, but the bolded is incorrect. It will be a new assembly line. This will create US jobs and I dislike Trump heavily, but he will take credit here and be basically right (I'm sure he'll exaggerate it). It also will embolden the Tariff strategy being discussed in the House and by Trump which is horrible...

This is not a slam dunk against the US or Trump, and only slightly hurts Boeing since they don't make many planes that compete with the C-series. This is more bad news in the long run then good from a macroeconomic and political view.

A better course would've been Canada protesting by cancelling a deal, like the Boeing fighter contract.
 
N

Nevasleep

Member
prophetvx said:
The net result of this is marginal if any jobs created in the US under airbus as an existing assembly line is just being re-tooled
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Can you expand on this? Haven't they said they are expanding the facilities and creating a new assembly line. Are the Airbus order numbers low enough that they'll just re-tool an existing line?
 
D

dionysus

Yaldog
Under NAFTA the only way you can impose a tariff is if Canada provides state support or you sell below costs (dumping) right? Bombardier was guilty of both of these; though in my mind selling below cost is legitimate when you are trying to break into a market and you are not doing it as a monopoly. I think the tariffs are somewhat justified.

Hypocrisy is a different matter. The US has done similar things in the past and not had tariffs imposed on our products.
 
4

4Tran

Member
maabus1999 said:
Already answered this earlier, but the bolded is incorrect. It will be a new assembly line. This will create US jobs and I dislike Trump heavily, but he will take credit here and be basically right (I'm sure he'll exaggerate it). It also will embolden the Tariff strategy being discussed in the House and by Trump which is horrible...

This is not a slam dunk against the US or Trump, and only slightly hurts Boeing since they don't make many planes that compete with the C-series. This is more bad news in the long run then good from a macroeconomic and political view.

A better course would've been Canada protesting by cancelling a deal, like the Boeing fighter contract.
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That's only true for the Delta contract. If the C-series gets a lot more future offers, something that is extremely likely, you can expect a lot of those future planes to be built in Canada. The tariff strategy isn't getting a boost here because Boeing just got screwed.
 
M

maabus1999

Member
FrankCanada97 said:
I thought I read in one of the press releases that jobs in the UK were preserved as well.
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Depends if Airbus will cancel the 319 and make parts for Europe/Asian customers there.

Not too sure that if the tariff case goes forward and is found in Boeing's favor in the final if they wont' see pre-built wings being shipped here as "trade circumvention." They may have to send smaller parts to not be found guilty of that.
 
M

maabus1999

Member
4Tran said:
That's only true for the Delta contract. If the C-series gets a lot more future offers, something that is extremely likely, you can expect a lot of those future planes to be built in Canada. The tariff strategy isn't getting a boost here because Boeing just got screwed.
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No the opposite happened. The Delta contract was supposed to be in Canada (but may be delayed depending on the tariff ruling); all future US orders are to be built in Alabama according to the deal.

If the tariff ruling is upheld, no US company is buying a $80 million dollar C-series plane (up from 19) from Canada any time soon. The company will still make money but there won't be as many jobs supporting those US-based profits in Canada.
 
G

GameAddict411

Member
Boeing played with fire and it backfired incredibly. Now no more tariffs and they dominate all small aircraft manufacturing. Airbus is the real winner though.
 
A

Armaros

Member
maabus1999 said:
No the opposite happened. The Delta contract was supposed to be in Canada (but may be delayed depending on the tariff ruling); all future US orders are to be built in Alabama according to the deal.

If the tariff ruling is upheld, no US company is buying a $80 million dollar C-series plane (up from 19) from Canada any time soon. The company will still make money but there won't be as many jobs supporting those US-based profits in Canada.
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The main reason why people didn't order the plane was because people don't expect the company to survive.

Now with Airbus involved, confidence in the product will soar and sales across the world will increase.

The canadian plants will make planes for Asia and Europe and the Airbus ones will make them to fulfill US contracts.
 
D

DopeyFish

Not bitter, just unsweetened
shintoki said:
Wouldn't this force a few more new jobs in the US? So only Boeing played themselves
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Not really. Problem is the engineering and parts comes from somewhere. So if CSeries takes off like wildfire, they are replacing engineering jobs in the US with some manufacturing.

It's a net loss to the US, not a gain. If bigger variants of the CSeries is coming, hold on to your butts because market is ripe for a shake up.
 
M

maabus1999

Member
GameAddict411 said:
Boeing played with fire and it backfired incredibly. Now no more tariffs and they dominate all small aircraft manufacturing. Airbus is the real winner though.
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This is not 100% over due to other complex rules in trade. If this is found to be guilty of "trade circumvention" in its current state, that would be more penalties.

Armaros said:
The main reason why people didn't order the plans was because people don't expect the company to survivr
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And that was why Boeing filed the complaint that Canada bailed out the company in an unfair way (not saying it was right btw).
 
4

4Tran

Member
Armaros said:
The main reason why people didn't order the plane was because people don't expect the company to survive.

Now with Airbus involved, confidence in the product will soar and sales across the world will increase.

The canadian plants will make planes for Asia and Europe and the Airbus ones will make them to fulfill US contracts.
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Exactly. Airbus is a name that a lot more airlines can rely on than Bombardier, so it's going to be a big win for everyone other than Boeing. The only problem is if the C-Series doesn't get many offers, but that's unlikely since it seems to be a very attractive product.
 
M

maabus1999

Member
4Tran said:
Exactly. Airbus is a name that a lot more airlines can rely on than Bombardier, so it's going to be a big win for everyone other than Boeing. The only problem is if the C-Series doesn't get many offers, but that's unlikely since it seems to be a very attractive product.
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Depends if Asia shifts to this plane to be honest (and this goes for Airbus/Boeing/Bombardier/Embraer): https://www.cnbc.com/2017/02/07/chinese-passenger-plane-to-rival-boeing-and-airbus-by-july.html
 
M

maabus1999

Member
KDR_11k said:
No, the EU is partially interested in Bombardier due to local jobs and very interested in Airbus.
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Being the plane is not (yet) fully assembled in the EU, they would lose in international trade court and most likely would see large retaliatory trade measures that would cripple both economies.
 
D

DasDamen

Member
Z3M0G said:
Canada is getting FUCKED by this guy... :(
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As a Canadian, I don't really see it as us getting fucked by Trump - I see it as us getting fucked by the people Trump represents (which is practically half the country).

As far as I'm concerned, the USA is an ally to Canada only in name at this point.
 
andythinkpad

andythinkpad

Member
More jobs in the US, that's actually good. Of course if it ends up like the Carrier deal and no new jobs added then it's not good.

I don't want to shit on orange turd on this one.
 
G

GoldenEye 007

Member
catmincer said:
The stretched c series 500 would be a huge threat to the 737 Max-8 though if released. The operating costs are lower and it's way more fuel efficient than the Boeing option. Airbus seem to have given up on the A319 too so a stretched series is actually a really good idea now.
Click to expand...

Oh, I thought some of these were planes that Boeing had no answer for. Even still, their problem for putting out a product their market sees as inferior.
 
P

prophetvx

Member
Nevasleep said:
Can you expand on this? Haven't they said they are expanding the facilities and creating a new assembly line. Are the Airbus order numbers low enough that they'll just re-tool an existing line?
Click to expand...

It looks like the story has changed a little bit since I read it yesterday. It appears they're upgrading facilities and adding up to 600 jobs, I don't know if they're creating a new line, what I read yesterday suggested that wasn't the case.

The planes are being built in the US for the US market, Canada and Northern Ireland still stay operational. As said elsewhere there is potentially some overlap with the 737, which could dig into boeings market. Politically it looks good for Trump, but the real term numbers could be very different.

It's actually a great deal for Bombardier, they've been struggling and propped up by the Canadian government for a long time, with Airbus throwing their name behind it they could get some traction in the market place.
 
N

Norwegian Rudo

Member
GoldenEye 007 said:
Oh, I thought some of these were planes that Boeing had no answer for. Even still, their problem for putting out a product their market sees as inferior.
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I read an article earlier today that I can't find right now, but it claimed that with this acquisition Airbus would probably only have to design one new aircraft type to be set for everything from 100 seats to 550 seats for the next couple of decades. Boeing on the other hand would probably have to design three new types in order to match up.
 
4

4Tran

Member
maabus1999 said:
Depends if Asia shifts to this plane to be honest (and this goes for Airbus/Boeing/Bombardier/Embraer): https://www.cnbc.com/2017/02/07/chinese-passenger-plane-to-rival-boeing-and-airbus-by-july.html
Click to expand...
It's unlikely that anyone other than a Chinese airline will adopt the C919, and even they will probably give the CSeries a look. It might be inexpensive on a per-unit basis, but operating costs and long-term support are more important considerations, and it's going to be lacking on both these fronts.
 
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