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Boxing Discussion

J

Jest Chillin

Member
eddfromtheriver said:
Well then... why not make it happen?, why not please his fans?, that would be a pretty big stain on his legacy if the fight never happens due to... reasons.
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It's pretty clear that his legacy isn't his concern. Even if he were to lose to Pacqiuao, that's one loss over a long and dominating career. All Floyd is concerned with at this point is maximizing his profit potential and since he's not ready to stop boxing, a Manny fight isn't fruitful enough.

To get the fight he'd have to sacrifice profit potential. On top of that, beating Pacman won't gaurantee better money afterwards. So why risk a loss on a single big payday? Keep fighting guys who have decent enough names that the fight grosses high numbers but who can't leverage their own popularity enough to get anywhere near an equal share. Profit to risk is in Mayweathers favor in those cases.

That's why I don't think Mayweather will seriously consider the fight until he's just about ready to hang up his gloves. It can only benefit his money.
 
E

eddfromtheriver

Banned
Jest Chillin said:
It's pretty clear that his legacy isn't his concern. Even if he were to lose to Pacqiuao, that's one loss over a long and dominating career. All Floyd is concerned with at this point is maximizing his profit potential and since he's not ready to stop boxing, a Manny fight isn't fruitful enough.

To get the fight he'd have to sacrifice profit potential. On top of that, beating Pacman won't gaurantee better money afterwards. So why risk a loss on a single big payday? Keep fighting guys who have decent enough names that the fight grosses high numbers but who can't leverage their own popularity enough to get anywhere near an equal share. Profit to risk is in Mayweathers favor in those cases.

That's why I don't think Mayweather will seriously consider the fight until he's just about ready to hang up his gloves. It can only benefit his money.
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Well i don't see any other fight possible of making the same amount of money that a Pacquiao/Mayweather bout would bring.
 
S

Syphon Filter

Member
Jest Chillin said:
It's pretty clear that his legacy isn't his concern. Even if he were to lose to Pacqiuao, that's one loss over a long and dominating career. All Floyd is concerned with at this point is maximizing his profit potential and since he's not ready to stop boxing, a Manny fight isn't fruitful enough.

To get the fight he'd have to sacrifice profit potential. On top of that, beating Pacman won't gaurantee better money afterwards. So why risk a loss on a single big payday? Keep fighting guys who have decent enough names that the fight grosses high numbers but who can't leverage their own popularity enough to get anywhere near an equal share. Profit to risk is in Mayweathers favor in those cases.

That's why I don't think Mayweather will seriously consider the fight until he's just about ready to hang up his gloves. It can only benefit his money.
Click to expand...

Didn't he say it was because of Bob?
 
J

Jest Chillin

Member
eddfromtheriver said:
Well i don't see any other fight possible of making the same amount of money that a Pacquiao/Mayweather bout would bring.
Click to expand...

But there's also no other figbt at the moment that would risk a loss as much as a Pacman fight. Being undefeated is part of the marketing draw that Mayweather holds and a loss befire he's ready to leave boxing would cost him some money in future fights. So from Mayweather's point of view he's looking at earning potential. The amount he would earn on a 50/50 deal isn't worth the amount he would lose in future fights by his estimation. That's the only logic that makes sense for his refusal of the fight when looking at it from an earnings potential perspective.

There's also the effect of the fight itself that would need to be taken into consideration. Manny's speed and power means the potential of Mayweather taking more damage then he's taken in a long time and he's not getting younger. A 12 round war or a ko loss could effect his performance for the rest of his career. So again.. risk vs reward just doesn't seem worth it for a single payout. At least not until he's just about done inside the ring.
 
S

Syphon Filter

Member
Jest Chillin said:
But there's also no other figbt at the moment that would risk a loss as much as a Pacman fight. Being undefeated is part of the marketing draw that Mayweather holds and a loss befire he's ready to leave boxing would cost him some money in future fights. So from Mayweather's point of view he's looking at earning potential. The amount he would earn on a 50/50 deal isn't worth the amount he would lose in future fights by his estimation. That's the only logic that makes sense for his refusal of the fight when looking at it from an earnings potential perspective.

There's also the effect of the fight itself that would need to be taken into consideration. Manny's speed and power means the potential of Mayweather taking more damage then he's taken in a long time and he's not getting younger. A 12 round war or a ko loss could effect his performance for the rest of his career. So again.. risk vs reward just doesn't seem worth it for a single payout. At least not until he's just about done inside the ring.
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Then isn't he admitting that he is afraid? I don't think he will lose at all but the way you put it makes it seem that he is scared. Bradley may give him trouble,pacman wont since he is like hatton and just goes to you. Floyd will pick him apart easily.
 
J

Jest Chillin

Member
Syphon Filter said:
Didn't he say it was because of Bob?
Click to expand...

That may or may not be true. I'm just talking about the logic behind his money making, which it seems like, to me, is his primary reason for boxing.

Syphon Filter said:
Then isn't he admitting that he is afraid? I don't think he will lose at all but the way you put it makes it seem that he is scared. Bradley may give him trouble,pacman wont since he is like hatton and just goes to you. Floyd will pick him apart easily.
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Well first, I'm just speculating his business logic. I could be way off. The thing is, though, it doesn't matter if he's scared or not. He could have all the confidence in the world that he'll beat Pacman but confidence doesn't guarantee results. I mean, I think everyone would agree that Broner never thought he'd lose to Maidana, let alone get beat up as badly as he did. So confidence aside, when you're looking at these fights from a business perspective, which is what I feel like Mayweather is doing, assessing the risk accurately is the second most important thing (the first being making sure you're training is top notch so you're up to par or greater for the fight).

I don't think Bradley is anywhere near as dangerous as Pacquiao is. That's not to say that Bradley couldn't win but he just doesn't pose the same threat. As far as Floyd picking Manny apart.. some people think that. The fact though is that Floyd hasn't fought someone with the combined speed and power of Pacquiao and therein lies the threat. I mean when you consider the possibilities of how fights will turn out you think about styles and past performances but until you get those two specific guys in the ring, nothing is proven. Mayweather could potentially pick Pacquiao apart. Manny could potentially catch Mayweather with a hard shot early and have the speed and accuracy to capitalize and put him away. But that's why fights are fought. To find those kinds of things out for a fact.
 
J

Jest Chillin

Member
x Power Pad Death Stomp x said:
This. All Manny had to do was keep winning and the pressure would be on Floyd for "ducking" him. Instead, he lost two straight, including one by brutal KO. Hard to make a claim that someone is ducking you when you don't deserve the fight anyway.
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Flawed logic. Manny kept winning for 2 years after the Hatton fight (when people started really clamoring for the fight) before he lost a super questionable decision to Bradley. During that time period there were numerous issues cropping up from both camps. There's absolutely nothing to support the idea that had Manny continued winning that the fight would be anymore likely than it was during those two years.

People can talk about pressure or what the fans or the sport want or need but in the end, for Mayweather that really doesn't matter. His fans will continue to pay money to see him fight and his detractors will continue to pay money hoping to watch him lose. It's not an issue of ducking. Mayweather is all about the business and he has to be to make the money to support the lifestyle he lives.
 
E

eddfromtheriver

Banned
Jest Chillin said:
Flawed logic. Manny kept winning for 2 years after the Hatton fight (when people started really clamoring for the fight) before he lost a super questionable decision to Bradley. During that time period there were numerous issues cropping up from both camps. There's absolutely nothing to support the idea that had Manny continued winning that the fight would be anymore likely than it was during those two years.

People can talk about pressure or what the fans or the sport want or need but in the end, for Mayweather that really doesn't matter. His fans will continue to pay money to see him fight and his detractors will continue to pay money hoping to watch him lose. It's not an issue of ducking. Mayweather is all about the business and he has to be to make the money to support the lifestyle he lives.
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Well fuck him, i get what you're saying... and it's probably true (not wanting to lose his undefeated status), but is he seriously going to retire w/o giving the fans what they've been asking for?

That would be pretty selfish/shitty and a huge poop mark on his record.
 
C

charsace

Member
Manny and his slave driver Arum fucked up this big fight. When the fight could have happened Arum was blocking it. Now that Manny needs this fight he can't get it because he has lost fights.
 
K

kinggroin

Banned
eddfromtheriver said:
Well fuck him, i get what you're saying... and it's probably true (not wanting to lose his undefeated status), but is he seriously going to retire w/o giving the fans what they've been asking for?

That would be pretty selfish/shitty and a huge poop mark on his record.
Click to expand...

You're going to pay to watch him give you fights you didn't ask for anyway, why throw his game plan and bank account off just to please complacent apologetic fans.
 
N

Ninja Scooter

Member
eddfromtheriver said:
Well then... why not make it happen?, why not please his fans?, that would be a pretty big stain on his legacy if the fight never happens due to... reasons.
Click to expand...

Because it's turned into a dick measuring contest between Bob Arum and Floyd. They hate each other. Arum in particular loathes Floyd and probably doesn't want to help him get another $40-50 million payday, even if Manny can somehow win (which I doubt). The reason this fight hasn't happened has nothing to do with one fighter being afraid of the other. That's silly.
 
R

RukusProvider

Banned
Floyd would happily fight manny if Arum wasn't involved. Getting that Pos out of the sport would be a good thing.

At no point in Mannys career is he a match for Floyd though.
 
T

Tom_Cody

Member
Any end of the year opinions? My take:

Fight of the Year: Bradley vs. Provodnikov. Amazing action and its importance grew in hindsight as Provodnikov and Bradley both posted career-best win in their follow up fights.

Runner up: Rios vs. Alvarado II. Amazing action but its importance diminished in hindsight as Rios and Alvarado both lost in their follow-up fights.


Fighter of the Year: Timothy Bradley. He won the fight of the year and went on to defeat Marquez to cement his spot in the lower half of the top five p4p. He will be the favorite in any match-up Arum can throw at him next year.

Runners up: Adonis Stevenson, and Sergey Kovalev. Each notched 4 significant wins for 8 total knockouts. 175 became one of the hottest divisions in boxing in 2013 thanks to them.
Also, Gennady Golovkin and Danny Garcia. Both rose in the sport this year but not by as much as the others. Golovkin's competition really wasn't that amazing but he over achieved in all of his fights. Garcia had one of the best wins on the year in his clear victory over Matthysse but his questionable performance against Judah ensures that people will still (foolishly) bet against him in big match-ups.


Knock out of the Year: John Molina TKO10 Mickey Bey. This one is kind of obscure but the drama here was just amazing. Bey had won every minute of every round and with 1:22 left in the final round. This one got me up of the couch like nothing else this year.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcNJ46sAsPM&hd=1

Runner up: Stevenson KO 1 Dawson. This one had much greater p4p significance but it didn't match the drama Molina's win.
Also, Jhonny Gonzalez KO 1 Mares. Same comments as Stevenson-Dawson.


Event of the Year: Adrien Broner vs. Marcos Maidana. Wow, this was a fun one. This seemed to have the biggest reaction in the boxing world in years.

Runner up: Floyd Mayweather vs. Saul Alvarez. The highest earning fight of all time. It set all sort of ratings records in Mexico. Garcia - Matthysse was an incredibly important and exciting fight. The main event was a bit of a dud.
 
T

Tom_Cody

Member
Syphon Filter said:
Who do you want Ruslan Prov to fight next?
Click to expand...
The bigger question is who can he fight next? As far as I know he is promoted by the tiny Banner Promotions and top rank has an option (maybe more than one) owing to his fights with Bradley and Alvarado. If that the case, it will be a matter of who Top Rank even has in their stable at 147.

To make matters worse, Arum needs to figure out who Bradley and Pac are going to fight first. He could up end up being matched with either of them, but they have a bit more agency than he does. The other name that has been coming up is Juan Manuel Marquel but I doubt Marquez will take that fight.
 
T

Tom_Cody

Member
Big news story:

http://espn.go.com/boxing/story/_/id/10218608/miguel-cotto-turns-offer-fight-saul-canelo-alvarez

One of the major questions to going into 2014 is who will fight who among Cotto, Alvarez, and Martinez (and to some extent Golovkin). Cotto has a lot of heat coming off KO win in his last fight. Alvarez is now confirmed to be out of the mix and it now looks like Cotto is going to be facing Martinez in June at MSG. I assume this will be on PPV. Alvarez seems to be left with Angulo for his first of three PPVs for 2014.
 
B

Boogybro

Member
Tom_Cody said:
Big news story:

http://espn.go.com/boxing/story/_/id/10218608/miguel-cotto-turns-offer-fight-saul-canelo-alvarez

One of the major questions to going into 2014 is who will fight who among Cotto, Alvarez, and Martinez (and to some extent Golovkin). Cotto has a lot of heat coming off KO win in his last fight. Alvarez is now confirmed to be out of the mix and it now looks like Cotto is going to be facing Martinez in June at MSG. I assume this will be on PPV. Alvarez seems to be left with Angulo for his first of three PPVs for 2014.
Click to expand...

I hope Cotto doesn't move up in weight again, that would just be asking to get slumped. I think he's still got the pulling power to bring Martinez down a division.
 
Z

Zeus Molecules

illegal immigrants are stealing our air
Tom_Cody said:
Big news story:

http://espn.go.com/boxing/story/_/id/10218608/miguel-cotto-turns-offer-fight-saul-canelo-alvarez

One of the major questions to going into 2014 is who will fight who among Cotto, Alvarez, and Martinez (and to some extent Golovkin). Cotto has a lot of heat coming off KO win in his last fight. Alvarez is now confirmed to be out of the mix and it now looks like Cotto is going to be facing Martinez in June at MSG. I assume this will be on PPV. Alvarez seems to be left with Angulo for his first of three PPVs for 2014.
Click to expand...

Good for Cotto for being smart a fight against alverez would likely position him as an opponent against a young fighter on the upswing (and in need of a decisive victory).

Martinez though if he has something left in the tank is just the type of fight cotto needs right now to build his own momentum instead of somebody else's. On the flip I don't think Martinez has anything left in the tank and I would be surprised if he goes down in weight and loses his only real advantage.
 
S

Syphon Filter

Member
Tom_Cody said:
The bigger question is who can he fight next? As far as I know he is promoted by the tiny Banner Promotions and top rank has an option (maybe more than one) owing to his fights with Bradley and Alvarado. If that the case, it will be a matter of who Top Rank even has in their stable at 147.

To make matters worse, Arum needs to figure out who Bradley and Pac are going to fight first. He could up end up being matched with either of them, but they have a bit more agency than he does. The other name that has been coming up is Juan Manuel Marquel but I doubt Marquez will take that fight.
Click to expand...

Been meaning to ask you. What did you think about the Mayweather vs Castillo fight? First one.
 
T

Tom_Cody

Member
Syphon Filter said:
Been meaning to ask you. What did you think about the Mayweather vs Castillo fight? First one.
Click to expand...
The last time I watched the fight was about 5 years ago (which was still about 5 years after the fight took place). I almost never "score" fights but I deliberately watched it that time to score it. By "score" I mean closely watching each second of each round to try to determine a winner of each round, which is a very different activity from just watching a fight and generally absorbing a feel for who is physically in charge of the fight at any given moment.

I scored it as a close, very close, win for Castillo. Like by 1-2 points.

Scoring in boxing is highly subjective and I've watched enough boxing over the years to know that close decisions can go either way. Based on that I'm usually inclined to view a close fight as a "close fight" more than as a "win" for either fighter. A knockout is an entirely different animal from a 12 round shutout is an entirely different animal from any close decision and so simply calling all of these things "wins" is kind of flawed. What makes this fight an interesting exception to that concept is that Floyd's identity in the sport is so linked to the mystique of his undefeated record. He loves to boast about his 0 and yet he probably didn't deserve the decision in this one fight. But what can you do. He made it that close despite having had a hurt hand and torn rotator cuff in the fight and he granted Castillo a rematch and then won that fight decisively.
 
J

Jest Chillin

Member
El Idiota said:
Hasn't one of Pacquiao's advisers already denied the story? It would be great though, even if it had been better two years ago.
Click to expand...

I hadn't seen a denial yet but I literally just came across this about 10 minutes ago. Thought maybe one of the regulars here would know more. I'll check around more sites though in the meantime.

Edit: Ok so I found an article where they quote Pacquiao's adviser as saying there's no deal.

I don't know that anyone would say any differently at this point though since both fighters would have fights before any proposed September fight anyways. Still, I'm very skeptical of this rumor.
 
T

Tom_Cody

Member
El Idiota said:
Since I'm the only one still (sort of) following the heavyweight division, some news. Solis will fight Thompson this March. Could be an easy win for Thompson if Solis shows up fat again. Stiverne will fight Arreola some time this year for Vitali's vacant title. Pretty telling those are the two top-ranked fighters in WBC, followed by Deontay "I swear I could beat someone other than a can" Wilder.

Oh, in other news, Denis Boytsov apparently injured himself against Leapai (which might explain his shocking performance) and is out again. Great. Former heavyweight prospect Robert Helenius meanwhile is feuding (or even sueing?) his former promoter. Sigh. Why am I still following the division again?
Click to expand...
It doesn't pay to get too caught up in the business side of the sport, especially not the fractured heavyweight division. As much as possible we should all just try to focus on the fights that are announced and in front of us.
 
B

Batman

Banned
El Idiota said:
Since I'm the only one still (sort of) following the heavyweight division, some news. Solis will fight Thompson this March. Could be an easy win for Thompson if Solis shows up fat again. Stiverne will fight Arreola some time this year for Vitali's vacant title. Pretty telling those are the two top-ranked fighters in WBC, followed by Deontay "I swear I could beat someone other than a can" Wilder.

Oh, in other news, Denis Boytsov apparently injured himself against Leapai (which might explain his shocking performance) and is out again. Great. Former heavyweight prospect Robert Helenius meanwhile is feuding (or even sueing?) his former promoter. Sigh. Why am I still following the division again?



You're probably right. It would be a great thing if it finally happened though.
Click to expand...

Chisora is fighting some undefeated guy which means Wilder turned down the fight for the second time which isn't surprising.

There is nobody in the heavyweight division that can beat Wladimir, and once he retires the division will be much worse off.
 
T

Tom_Cody

Member
Batman said:
Chisora is fighting some undefeated guy which means Wilder turned down the fight for the second time which isn't surprising.

There is nobody in the heavyweight division that can beat Wladimir, and once he retires the division will be much worse off.
Click to expand...
I disagree completely. I am supremely looking forward to the post-Wladamir era. It will be great fun to watch the best of the rest go at each other. Who knows who will emerge.
 
T

Tom_Cody

Member
Heads up for those in the US, Friday Night Fights on ESPN2 returns tonight at 9pm with a decent card.

The main even is Argenis Mendez vs. Rances Barthelemy for the 130lb IBF title, making it quite significant as far as FNF fights go. Mendez ranked 3rd or 4th in the world by ESPN and the The Ring respectively and Barthelemy is a undefeated Cuban.

Here are some preview articles from ESPN:

http://espn.go.com/blog/dan-rafael/post/_/id/6989/title-fight-on-fnf-season-debut
http://espn.go.com/boxing/story/_/id/10230899/five-keys-argenis-mendez-rances-barthelemy
http://espn.go.com/boxing/story/_/id/10231570/five-keys-rances-barthelemy-argenis-mendez
 
P

perineumlick

Member
That ref might have cost Mendes his title. Those punches were clearly after the bell; he might have been able to recover had those punches not landed. I don't know how to feel about this one.
 
T

Tom_Cody

Member
perineumlick said:
That ref might have cost Mendez his title. Those punches were clearly after the bell; he might have been able to recover had those punches not landed. I don't know how to feel about this one.
Click to expand...
It's the ref's discretion in situations like this. I am fine with the way things stand but I also would have been OK if he had given Mendez time to recover. I was kind of shocked in the movement that he didn't give him time to recover, but what can you do.

Here's a clip for anyone that didn't see the fight:
http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=10241036

I guess I just fall on the side of 'protect yourself at all times'. Besides, it's not like Mendez dropped his hands at the bell and got hit as a result. Barthelemy was throwing a combination as the bell sounded and Mendez was actively defending himself. They were both essentially still engaged in the round. I don't think you can call it a sucker punch or anything like that.

"Controversy" aside, great win for Barthelemy. He's got a lot of upside. He has good speed, great power, a solid amateur background, and fantastic height/reach for a junior lightweight. And now he has a title belt.
 
P

perineumlick

Member
Tom_Cody said:
It's the ref's discretion in situations like this. I am fine with the way things stand but I also would have been OK if he had given Mendez time to recover. I was kind of shocked in the movement that he didn't give him time to recover, but what can you do.

Here's a clip for anyone that didn't see the fight:
http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=10241036

I guess I just fall on the side of 'protect yourself at all times'. Besides, it's not like Mendez dropped his hands at the bell and got hit as a result. Barthelemy was throwing a combination as the bell sounded and Mendez was actively defending himself. They were both essentially still engaged in the round. I don't think you can call it a sucker punch or anything like that.

"Controversy" aside, great win for Barthelemy. He's got a lot of upside. He has good speed, great power, a solid amateur background, and fantastic height/reach for a junior lightweight. And now he has a title belt.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I don't blame Barthelemy; he was in the moment throwing punches. The ref is supposed to be aware of the time left until the bell, and position himself accordingly, to bring a halt to the action. I agree with you about "protect yourself at all times", definitely, but that ref pretty much blew it on his end.

And yeah, Barthelemy looks to be the real deal! Very impressed with his power and technique. I'll be keeping an eye on him for sure.
 
J

Jest Chillin

Member
So I'm just now watching that Friday Night Fights and I can't get behind the decision in the Barthelemy v. Mendes fight. Protect yourself at all times applied in Mayweather v. Ortiz but in this particular case there were 3 punches thrown after the bell before Mendes went down. 1 punch I can see.. 2 punches ok if it's a combo.. 3 punches is just too many. In no way do I buy that Barthelemy didn't hear the bell. He was willing risk the penalty in an attempt to finish the fight. It ended up working in his favor but I don't like it at all.
 
T

Tom_Cody

Member
Syphon Filter said:
CANELO ALVAREZ SAYS ALFREDO ANGULO IS NEXT FOR MARCH 8 RETURN

http://www.fighthype.com/news/article15894.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Why not Lara?
Click to expand...

perineumlick said:
I'm sure he's not too high on fighting a slick southpaw after that boxing lesson from Floyd. He wants someone hittable and one dimensional, yet live enough to justify a PPV.
Click to expand...
While I agree that Lara is the much better fighter, wouldn't both of you prefer to actually watch the fight vs. Angulo?

I just hope that Lara makes the cut for one of Alvarez's three PPVs this year.
 
H

Heel

Member
@arielhelwani: Keith Kizer has announced that he is stepping down as executive director of the NSAC effective Jan. 27. No replacement announced yet.

NSAC chairman Aguilar: "Keith was not forced into this decision. But we do respect it and we will conduct a national search."

Kizer on stepping down: "It's time to move on. It's time to back to being an attorney."

iz6JdhzEIGVkd.gif
 
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