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Boxing Discussion

pixelation

pixelation

Member
Well yesterday's fight was a HUGE letdown for me, i was rooting for Pacquiao but it seems that he really became more gunshy after his last bout with Marquez and that brutal KO. I don't think that we'll ever see the old Manny back.

Mayweather won the fight, but the judges we're crazy because the fight was closer than what the scorecards said. And eventhough May won... he didn't do it in an extraordinary fashion, he did it in the same old boring style of his, is he technical?... yes, talented?... yes, boring to watch?... OH HELL YEAH HE IS. I know he is a counter-puncher but said style doesn't make for exciting fights.

With this fight in the past now i don't know what's going to happen with boxing, it is left in a complicated situation, this fight was supposed to rekindle the people's love for pugilism. But after this major letdown i can only see boxing losing even more of its appeal.
 
L

Leunam

Member
Floyd can box his "boring" style for a few more years as long as he keeps delivering those pull counters. Those never get old.
 
T

Tater Tot

"My God... it's full of Starch!"
It was a masterclass fight from a technical standpoint. The fight was pretty much a repeat of Whitaker vs. Chavez from '93. Floyd always moved to the left after every exchange. This kept Manny unable to use his dominate left hand. Which was a great move, since the philly shell/shoulder roll is weak against lead lefts from southpaws. I was thoroughly entertained but I did expect more from Manny. A lot more. I though he was going to be very aggressive and set the tone/pace in the beginning rounds.

At the bar I was telling my friends that I had no clue what Manny was doing. Why he was not going in and that he was fighting a style that was not his signature. I don't know what to make of the excuses he gave afterwards in the press conference. Floyd can pretty much relax now because he has definitely cemented his legacy as one of the best. I think the only option for these great champions is retirement.
 
E

Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
I think the idea that this fight will make people go away from boxing is ridiculous, it will do the opposite. It won't lose those it didn't have, but it will have gained a lot. Watch boxing classes go in crazy demand. You know now a lot of people, even if they might have not liked the fight, are watching boxing videos on youtube of past fights, discovering fighters still active, etc.
 
F

Fox318

Member
Ether_Snake said:
I think the idea that this fight will make people go away from boxing is ridiculous, it will do the opposite. It won't lose those it didn't have, but it will have gained a lot. Watch boxing classes go in crazy demand.
Click to expand...

I can see people who wanted a knockout fest being bitter if they bought the fight.

Its a $100 fight.
 
T

Turin

Banned
I'm just hoping Floyd's last fight is an interesting one. Either against Khan or Cotto for the middleweight title.

Manny should have one last farewell fight for his countrymen.

I really want to see Andre Ward get back in there with someone good after this tune up. It sucks when your favorite boxer's barely fought in the last 3 years. :(
 
K

kinggroin

Banned
Still thinking about Saturdays fight.

I'm baffled.

Where did Manny's foot work vanish to? I mean, making bee lines for Floyd couldn't possibly be their strategy could it?


the more I think about the fight, the more upset I become at him and his team.
 
T

Turin

Banned
kinggroin said:
Still thinking about Saturdays fight.

I'm baffled.

Where did Manny's foot work vanish to? I mean, making bee lines for Floyd couldn't possibly be their strategy could it?


the more I think about the fight, the more upset I become at him and his team.
Click to expand...

There's a number of reasons to look at but I think, in general, when two guys at such a high level fight each other they cancel out certain things they normally do.

For example, on the other side, Manny made Floyd's shoulder roll stance look worthless when Floyd tried to use it. For the rest of the fight he forced Manny to have to cover so much distance that no matter where Pac maneuvered Floyd would have kept him in his sights.

The best bet for Pacquiao would have been to march forward, cut off the ring and be in his face ala Winky Wright but that's never really been his style.
 
IrishNinja

IrishNinja

Member
just wanted to say, it's nice to see legit discussion about the fight here, as opposed to the general thread/my FB/offline etc where its all NO KO = RIPOFF, what kinda champ runs etc etc ugh

also any idea why illmatic and syphon got clapped up?
 
E

Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
IrishNinja said:
just wanted to say, it's nice to see legit discussion about the fight here, as opposed to the general thread/my FB/offline etc where its all NO KO = RIPOFF, what kinda champ runs etc etc ugh

also any idea why illmatic and syphon got clapped up?
Click to expand...

Most likely stream requests during the fight.
 
F

Fox318

Member
pixelation said:
That would be a horrible way to retire, Saturday nights fight was horrid. He needs to go out with a bang... if he has any of those left in him that is.
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he's retiring with a nice paycheck.

If his shoulder was that bad he shouldn't have accepted the fight.
 
T

Turin

Banned
Considering the morale of an entire country depends on Manny Pacquiao, maybe it's a good thing that the Philippine people have a somewhat legitimate excuse.
 
T

Tom_Cody

Member
kinggroin said:
Heads up fellas. We have PBC this Saturday.
Click to expand...
I'm very much looking forward to it, though Kirkland-Canleo is the clear main event of the weekend.

ZGJXAqS.jpg
 
BadAss2961

BadAss2961

Member
So any idea what's up with Kirkland and Anne Wolf? Not even HBO could get an answer. My only guess is he doesn't wanna go through her brutal training again. She used to have him on some Rocky IV shit.

It's a shame cuz he's been a machine under her.
 
T

Tom_Cody

Member
BadAss2961 said:
So any idea what's up with Kirkland and Anne Wolf? Not even HBO could get an answer. My only guess is he doesn't wanna go through her brutal training again. She used to have him on some Rocky IV shit.

It's a shame cuz he's been a machine under her.
Click to expand...
It's not really a mystery. Ann Wolfe is tough on her fighters. Well, abusive is probably a better word than tough:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDslGreqL48

She and Krikland make for a good storyline, but there is a reason that she hasn't attract a single other top fighter.
 
L

Leunam

Member
Has Ishida done anything notable since upsetting Kirkland? I think I've seen him fight once afterwards but I really can't recall.
 
C

CopperPuppy

Member
Leunam said:
Has Ishida done anything notable since upsetting Kirkland? I think I've seen him fight once afterwards but I really can't recall.
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He's 3-2 against chumps and kickboxers since Golovkin nearly decapitated him.

Speaking of whom, GGG/Monroe, Jr. is a week from tomorrow. On top of Alvarez/Kirkland tomorrow, and Khan/Aglieri and Brook/Gavin on the 29th and 30th, respectively, May looks to be a great month.

Oh, and Dirrell/DeGale on the 23rd.
 
E

El Topo

Member
As much as I like Golovkin, he really needs to fight better competition. He's 33 and his best win is Murray (or Geale). When your best wins are guys that barely beat Felix Sturm, that's not a good thing.
 
C

CopperPuppy

Member
El Topo said:
As much as I like Golovkin, he really needs to fight better competition. He's 33 and his best win is Murray.
Click to expand...

Which is not his fault. The dude is crazy active and cops to any terms to get marquee fighters. GGG has long surpassed the point of saying "he needs to fight better competition," and is firmly in "the supposedly better competition needs to fight him" territory.

And, for that matter, while he certainly deserves marquee match-ups, his opposition isn't entirely paltry. He absolutely faces the best guys who will actually step into a ring with him.

Murray was robbed against Martinez and likely should have beat Sturm. Macklin was a T10 MW when GGG demolished him with one of the nastiest body shots I have ever seen. Stevens and Rubio aren't great fighters, but they were at least considered durable. GGG hit Stevens with a left so hard it looked like his soul was leaving his body, and damn near took Rubio's head off with another brutal left. There's also Geale, who Golovkin gave "good boy" status to in the span of about 5 minutes. Geale fights Cotto in a month - why wouldn't Cotto step up and fight the guy who stomped Geale, who also happens to be his mandatory challenger? Hmm...

Now that his name recognition is spreading, we'll hopefully see more marquee opponents being shamed into facing him. There's only so much you can do to get the supposed best to fight you, especially when you're as frightening as he is.
 
IrishNinja

IrishNinja

Member
keep thinking some of ya'll are overhyping GGG but i honestly haven't seen many of his matches - what are his best ones to show his strengths?
 
C

CopperPuppy

Member
IrishNinja said:
keep thinking some of ya'll are overhyping GGG but i honestly haven't seen many of his matches - what are his best ones to show his strengths?
Click to expand...

Enjoy.

I also encourage you to watch the matches in their entirety as a better showcase of his skillset, and to provide more context. Most won't take you very long.

If you want specifics, most of the matches mentioned in my above post would be good: Macklin, Murray, Geale, Stevens, Rubio, Rosado. His amateur bouts are also interesting if you can find them (dude was 345-5), but admittedly dated. And there's some great sparring footage (for what it's worth).
 
E

El Topo

Member
CopperPuppy said:
Which is not his fault. The dude is crazy active and cops to any terms to get marquee fighters. GGG has long surpassed the point of saying "he needs to fight better competition," and is firmly in "the supposedly better competition needs to fight him" territory.
Click to expand...

That doesn't change that he hasn't fought impressive opposition.

CopperPuppy said:
Murray was robbed against Martinez and likely should have beat Sturm. Macklin was a T10 MW when GGG demolished him with one of the nastiest body shots I have ever seen. Stevens and Rubio aren't great fighters, but they were at least considered durable. GGG hit Stevens with a left so hard it looked like his soul was leaving his body, and damn near took Rubio's head off with another brutal left. There's also Geale, who Golovkin gave "good boy" status to in the span of about 5 minutes.
Click to expand...

Murray and Geale looked pretty unimpressive against Sturm, even if both should've won. Those are (by far) his best wins. He demolished those two in wonderful fashion, no doubt. Neither Stevens or Rubio can be considered durable as both got knocked out before, Rubio even in the first round. They're solid opposition though. Here's the thing: Golovkin crushed weaker competition, he buried them. That doesn't necessarily mean he can handle great competition.

If we give Wilder shit for fighting absolutely garbage (who will apparently defend his title against a subpar opponent next), we should complain if GGG fights someone like Willie Monroe, Jr.

CopperPuppy said:
Now that his name recognition is spreading, we'll hopefully see more marquee opponents being shamed into facing him. There's only so much you can do to get the supposed best to fight you, especially when you're as frightening as he is.
Click to expand...

That might be true, but it is also a wonderful excuse. I guess he just doesn't bring enough money to the table. Is there no way to force a title shot?
 
IrishNinja

IrishNinja

Member
CopperPuppy said:
Enjoy.

I also encourage you to watch the matches in their entirety as a better showcase of his skillset, and to provide more context. Most won't take you very long.

If you want specifics, most of the matches mentioned in my above post would be good: Macklin, Murray, Geale, Stevens, Rubio, Rosado. His amateur bouts are also interesting if you can find them (dude was 345-5), but admittedly dated. And there's some great sparring footage (for what it's worth).
Click to expand...

thanks for this -goddamn @ that macklin body blow, and a few bits like the stevens fight looked fun even if dude couldn't block much. the gaele exchange looked...sloppy? haha. murray one looked particularly exciting, and you're right i need to watch the full matches, but at a glance?

it's cool to see such a heavy hitter (so many people last weekend would've enjoyed his fights more, haha), especially a body puncher, i dig that. but part of me has gotta wonder if he's just waiting to get exposed when he reaches that upper tier, you know? i'd love to see him against some stronger competition. maybe it's just me, i still firmly recall watching roy jones build on the hype & move up only to get absolutely broken down to molecules.
 
I

Ikuu

Had his dog run over by Blizzard's CEO
El Topo said:
That might be true, but it is also a wonderful excuse. I guess he just doesn't bring enough money to the table. Is there no way to force a title shot?
Click to expand...

He's supposed to fight Cotto if he wins his voluntary defence, but Cotto will probably vacate.
 
C

CopperPuppy

Member
El Topo said:
That doesn't change that he hasn't fought impressive opposition.



Murray and Geale looked pretty unimpressive against Sturm, even if both should've won. Those are (by far) his best wins. He demolished those two in wonderful fashion, no doubt. Neither Stevens or Rubio can be considered durable as both got knocked out before, Rubio even in the first round. They're solid opposition though. Here's the thing: Golovkin crushed weaker competition, he buried them. That doesn't necessarily mean he can handle great competition.

If we give Wilder shit for fighting absolutely garbage (who will apparently defend his title against a subpar opponent next), we should complain if GGG fights someone like Willie Monroe, Jr.



That might be true, but it is also a wonderful excuse. I guess he just doesn't bring enough money to the table. Is there no way to force a title shot?
Click to expand...

You respond to and quote every word of my post but leave out the one sentence that points out how Cotto, who Golovkin had been relentlessly hounding for a fight, chose instead to fight a guy who GGG reduced to rubble, when Golovkin is his mandatory challenger (post-Geale). The one sentence that proves the points in my post aren't "excuses" for Golovkin, but actually excuses for his opponents.

In your post, legitimate reasons are "excuses." The fact is that there are legitimate reasons why someone can look at GGG's record and wonder why he hasn't fought top-tier opponents: everyone is shamelessly ducking him. If he will, but others won't, how is that an excuse for him, not for them? The real excuses come from the fighters who won't face him, especially when you consider Golovkin's average of four or five fights a year and consistent willingness to give on terms.

So, no, I'm not going to give Golovkin shit like Wilder gets shit. He all but begs these guys to fight him, and most just won't. Those "most" happen to be the ones with the most to lose if they get beat up, since they're seen as top money fighters. You can't force them into a ring. Sure, force them to give up a belt. Cotto is a legend in Puerto Rico - he doesn't give a fuck about that belt. He does give a fuck about whether his face gets rearranged at the end of his career.
 
E

El Topo

Member
CopperPuppy said:
You respond to and quote every word of my post but leave out the one sentence that points out how Cotto, who Golovkin had been relentlessly hounding for a fight, chose instead to fight a guy who GGG reduced to rubble, when Golovkin is his mandatory challenge (post-Geale). The one sentence that prove the points in my post aren't "excuses" for Golovkin, but actually excuses for his opponents.
Click to expand...

He hasn't fought Cotto. There are plenty of other divisions, plenty of other good fighters. What about Super Middleweight or Jr. Middleweight? Cotto dodges him? Okay, then he can go clean better (or in case of super middleweight worse) divisions. Heck, it's not as if Cotto is the only other middleweight titleholder besides Golovkin.

CopperPuppy said:
In your post, reasons are "excuses." The fact is that there are legitimate reasons why someone can look at GGG's record and wonder why he hasn't fought top-tier opponents: everyone is shamelessly ducking him. The real excuses come from the fighters who won't face him, especially when you consider Golovkin's average of four or five fights a year and consistent willingness to give on terms.
Click to expand...

He's fighting What's-his-name next. Come on. I'm not even saying no one is dodging him, I'm sure there's boxers dodging him, I've read e.g. the excuses by Froch. That said, to be considered among the greatest, you have to beat the greatest. Until Golovkin beats those considered great, even if it's just Miguel "I lost to Floyd and Pac" Cotto, he'll have to be filed under "Could be great, but not proven enough".

Edit:
Force them to give up the belt then. Lewis did that to Bowe. There's nothing that ruins a legacy more than a champion vacating a title to dodge opposition.
 
C

CopperPuppy

Member
El Topo said:
He hasn't fought Cotto. There are plenty of other divisions, plenty of other good fighters. What about Super Middleweight or Jr. Middleweight? Cotto dodges him? Okay, then he can go clean better (or in case of super middleweight worse) divisions. Heck, it's not as if Cotto is the only other middleweight titleholder besides Golovkin.



He's fighting What's-his-name next. Come on. I'm not even saying no one is dodging him, I'm sure there's boxers dodging him, I've read e.g. the excuses by Froch. That said, to be considered among the greatest, you have to beat the greatest. Until Golovkin beats those considered great, even if it's just Miguel "I lost to Floyd and Pac" Cotto, he'll have to be filed under "Could be great, but not proven enough".

Edit:
Force them to give up the belt then. Lewis did that to Bowe. There's nothing that ruins a legacy more than a champion vacating a title to dodge opposition.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what the bolded is responding to... The whole point of my post is that Cotto hasn't fought Golovkin, and is in fact openly and shamelessly ducking him by fighting inferior opponents.

And GGG has tried to fight the guys at SMW. Froch and Chavez, Jr. are now famously avoiding him. Golovkin wants Ward bad but there are legitimate reasons for that not happening, obviously. He's also trying hard to clear out the best at his current weight and unify those belts, as is typical for most up-and-comers to do to establish themselves: clear out your weight, collect the belts, then sit on the throne and take all comers (i.e. Hagler) or move up and start over (i.e. RJJ).

I agree that you have to beat the greatest, but you can't beat the greatest if they're afraid to step in the ring with you, and no one can force them to do that if they don't want to. GGG can't be blamed if others refuse to fight him. As for vacating belts - like I said, Cotto is a legend in Puerto Rico and a future Hall of Famer, he does not care about the damn belt. Watch him vacate it without a second thought.

The attitude in your posts is actually a self-fulfilling prophecy and one of boxing's biggest problems. The guys who don't want to fight GGG use the fact that he's "unproven" as an excuse not to fight him yet, saying he's not "ready," so he in effect never gets to prove himself, and all of the guys at the top can continue ducking him. Everyone, and the sport, loses with this mentality. There has to come a point where you give up saying that he has to fight others, and instead accept the fact that others have to fight him. We arrived at that point a while ago.
 
L

Leunam

Member
Can't believe I allowed myself to waste half an hour last night arguing with a friend over clinching in the wake of the Mayweather fight. I thought I was safe from all that post fight nonsense in my personal circle but I guess not. I feel dirty.
 
H

Heel

Member
On the GGG talk, yeah they aren't exactly knocking his door down for a fight sadly. Become a real draw, which he seems to be on that path very quickly here, and I think more guys will be willing to entertain a fight with him. In the end, the money talks. No one is looking to get outlined in chalk for cheap. I can understand why the big names would take someone else for a comparable payday.

Leunam said:
Can't believe I allowed myself to waste half an hour last night arguing with a friend over clinching in the wake of the Mayweather fight. I thought I was safe from all that post fight nonsense in my personal circle but I guess not. I feel dirty.
Click to expand...

The "holding!" thing has been pretty bizarre. How many clinches were there throughout the fight? Not enough to jump out at me, that's for sure. These people just do not watch boxing.
 
L

Leunam

Member
Heel said:
The "holding!" thing has been pretty bizarre. How many clinches were there throughout the fight? Not enough to jump out at me, that's for sure. These people just do not watch boxing.
Click to expand...

That's really what it comes down to doesn't it? They didn't actually get what they expected because they never watch boxing.

Another friend and I compared it to the people who only watch the World Cup and get upset that these games don't deliver goal after goal after goal. They wanted a knockout from Mayweather of all people.
 
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