For Braid fans looking for a laugh, feast your eyes upon this:
http://www.metalgearsolid.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=30157
no spoilers.
http://www.metalgearsolid.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=30157
no spoilers.
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Braid (XBLA/PC/PSN/Mac) |OT|
- Thread starter Shard
- Start date
sonicmj1 said:
I really don't see how you can take the atomic bomb interpretation as a direct/casual/linear interpretation, when you see how much evidence had to be found for it to even come to this point (nautical flag warnings, there's nothing casual about that), whereas everyone else was/is still stuck on Tim being a stalker/the princess being a metaphor for something you can never get. If anything, it's the latter interpretations that are casual/direct.
Again, as lewismistreated stated in the linked post, not EVERY book had to do with the atomic bomb, but the affects on Tim's life chasing after/developing the "bomb".
"Braid is a story that focuses on the development and deployment of the atomic bomb, and the irreversible impact it had on all human conflicts thereafter. At the very same time, it deals with the very human story of a relationship breaking down due to one persons obsessive need to control this power. Finally, at certain points, the perspective of the bomb creator as a child comes through."
And some texts speak of the princess metaphorically as if she's a person so as to not make it obvious that the princess isn't an actual person when you get to the end. For example, you mentioned the different texts in chapter 2. Jonathan Blow obviously did not intend for people to immediately know what was going to happen with the story and the ending at the very beginning of the game. The final events of the story are supposed to come as a surprise to most of the audience. Even if you don't believe the bomb theory and are more content with the stalker/metaphor for the unachievable theories, the Chapter 2 text is worded in such a way to keep the audience in the dark about these different theories until the final level. Before that all Blow wants the audience to believe is that this is a simple guy trying to rescue a princess and have a happy ending (Mario). That's why the twist ending of the Princess running away from you/blowing up if you collect the first 7 stars and reach her and the epilogue bomb content aren't revealed until the end of the game, because he wants to surprise people. Once you have the knowledge that this isn't the typical "guy saves the girl" story, then you can go back through with that knowledge and make the connections.
Again, as lewismistreated stated in the linked post, not EVERY book had to do with the atomic bomb, but the affects on Tim's life chasing after/developing the "bomb".
"Braid is a story that focuses on the development and deployment of the atomic bomb, and the irreversible impact it had on all human conflicts thereafter. At the very same time, it deals with the very human story of a relationship breaking down due to one persons obsessive need to control this power. Finally, at certain points, the perspective of the bomb creator as a child comes through."
And some texts speak of the princess metaphorically as if she's a person so as to not make it obvious that the princess isn't an actual person when you get to the end. For example, you mentioned the different texts in chapter 2. Jonathan Blow obviously did not intend for people to immediately know what was going to happen with the story and the ending at the very beginning of the game. The final events of the story are supposed to come as a surprise to most of the audience. Even if you don't believe the bomb theory and are more content with the stalker/metaphor for the unachievable theories, the Chapter 2 text is worded in such a way to keep the audience in the dark about these different theories until the final level. Before that all Blow wants the audience to believe is that this is a simple guy trying to rescue a princess and have a happy ending (Mario). That's why the twist ending of the Princess running away from you/blowing up if you collect the first 7 stars and reach her and the epilogue bomb content aren't revealed until the end of the game, because he wants to surprise people. Once you have the knowledge that this isn't the typical "guy saves the girl" story, then you can go back through with that knowledge and make the connections.
Kreed said:
I disagree with your interpretation. It still seems to me like you're ignoring the parts that don't fit.
Just to stick with World 2's books (I remember it best, and can't access game text at the moment), it explicitly refers to Tim's relationship with the princess. The garden quote I mention says, "Tim and the Princess are lounging together..." This may not be a literal meaning, but even as a metaphor, it seems to go against the bomb theory.
While I agree that there is some misdirection at work in obscuring the true multifaceted, non-linear nature of the tale, that's no excuse for World 2's books to actively rebut the atomic bomb intepretation, were it to be correct. All aspects of a text are intentional, and if a particular meaning is intended, there shouldn't be direct contradictions.
I personally don't fully buy the stalker interpretation either. In my view, the tale is metaphorical in a larger sense for Tim's own quest for meaning and fulfillment in his life. The nature of that meaning or fulfillment is left intentionally vague by the epilogue. Whether it be a girlfriend, a scientific discovery, or an actual nuke, the phenomena remain constant. Each tale and red book in the prologue gives an alternate beginning for the story, with each bit of extra text giving an appropriate reason for the protagonist's ultimate failure to achieve his goal.
To me, the important image is not the text recounting the bomb test, or the princess exploding. It's the final castle that Tim reaches in the epilogue (what does the nautical flag there mean, I wonder?) composed of icons from all the levels he has completed. He may have ultimately been unable to reach the 'princess' he sought, but he can create a new castle, and use what he has learned to move in a different direction.
While I agree that there is some misdirection at work in obscuring the true multifaceted, non-linear nature of the tale, that's no excuse for World 2's books to actively rebut the atomic bomb intepretation, were it to be correct. All aspects of a text are intentional, and if a particular meaning is intended, there shouldn't be direct contradictions.
I personally don't fully buy the stalker interpretation either. In my view, the tale is metaphorical in a larger sense for Tim's own quest for meaning and fulfillment in his life. The nature of that meaning or fulfillment is left intentionally vague by the epilogue. Whether it be a girlfriend, a scientific discovery, or an actual nuke, the phenomena remain constant. Each tale and red book in the prologue gives an alternate beginning for the story, with each bit of extra text giving an appropriate reason for the protagonist's ultimate failure to achieve his goal.
To me, the important image is not the text recounting the bomb test, or the princess exploding. It's the final castle that Tim reaches in the epilogue (what does the nautical flag there mean, I wonder?) composed of icons from all the levels he has completed. He may have ultimately been unable to reach the 'princess' he sought, but he can create a new castle, and use what he has learned to move in a different direction.
In that sense, the game's 'narrative' is composed much more of emotions, feelings, and memories than from any set of actual events. Tim's obsession takes many forms, and those manifest themselves through the books and the worlds. The actual concrete reasons behind it, the full nature of his past and present, remain intentionally unresolved.
sonicmj1 said:
If you agree that the princess is at the very least, a metaphor for something larger, then I don't see how the chapter 2 books and the relationship that is described between Tim and the princess go against/rebut the bomb theory, since the entire relationship between the princess and Tim described in the books (conversations, etc...) would have to be a metaphor as well. For example, you mention the princess and Tim lounging together. If you take that literally, then yes it contradicts the bomb theory. But , for example, if you look at that passage as Tim remembering/imagining when he was "happy" with his "princess" or in this case his "creation/discovery", then it fits perfectly with the rest of the context.
Don't get me wrong, I don't have an issue with the princess being "a metaphor for something larger" interpretation. In fact, I think the bomb theory goes well with this interpretation, since Tim and ultimately the audience are supposed to learn the same lesson about going after the "princess". The bomb theory actually adds to this as well, as it gives more of a reason as to why the "princess" shouldn't have been sought after outside of the relationships Tim lost.
Don't get me wrong, I don't have an issue with the princess being "a metaphor for something larger" interpretation. In fact, I think the bomb theory goes well with this interpretation, since Tim and ultimately the audience are supposed to learn the same lesson about going after the "princess". The bomb theory actually adds to this as well, as it gives more of a reason as to why the "princess" shouldn't have been sought after outside of the relationships Tim lost.
Is it too late for like an update to be released that would:
A) Create a new Achievement
(They'd be secret of course.)
B) Add a fix for breaking the puzzle back up
Could patches be made to do that? If Blow were even so inclined to go through with making them?
I wish there had been a few more playful achievements too. Like maybe the first time you double jump on an enemy or something to spice things up.
A) Create a new Achievement
that happens when you get all 8 stars, or better yet, a set of achievements that activate every star. Maybe 10 points each with the 8th being 30 adding a total of 100 new G points to the game
B) Add a fix for breaking the puzzle back up
Could patches be made to do that? If Blow were even so inclined to go through with making them?
I wish there had been a few more playful achievements too. Like maybe the first time you double jump on an enemy or something to spice things up.
stewacide said:
Goto zune.com and sign in with your XBL account. You have to be in the US to buy points though
You don't really need to use the d-pad for braid imo, but a PC version is supposed to be out later this year (Linux support is planned for sometime after Windows, but we'll see. No clue about Mac). You could also get a VGA cable for your 360 and hook up to a computer monitor if you prefer it over your TV (obviously not worth it for one game)
I'm passing along the message below, as requested.
-----------------------------------------
Hello there. lewismistreated from the Rllmuk forum here. I signed up for a Neogaf account a couple of days ago, but Im still waiting on the second activation mail that will actually let me post. For now, this guy here is being kind enough to pass on my voice through his account. Which is cool, because Id like to join in with whats being discussed.
I'll spoiler box most of this, just so I don't ruin anyone's day or something.
Anyway, Ill give this guy his account back now. Hopefully Ill be able to post on my own soon enough.
-----------------------------------------
Hello there. lewismistreated from the Rllmuk forum here. I signed up for a Neogaf account a couple of days ago, but Im still waiting on the second activation mail that will actually let me post. For now, this guy here is being kind enough to pass on my voice through his account. Which is cool, because Id like to join in with whats being discussed.
I'll spoiler box most of this, just so I don't ruin anyone's day or something.
This is probably the single biggest issue me and my friend had when we started making the case, with the quite obvious dilemma that, at certain points in the game, the Princess is referred to in a variety of different situations, all differing in tone and meaning. Take one of the pre-world books from Time and Mastery for example;
3. Time and Mastery
All those years ago, Tim had left the Princess behind, He had kissed her on the neck, picked up his travel bag, and walked out the door. He regrets this, to a degree. Now hes journeying to find her again, to show he knows how said it was, but also to tell her how it was good.
Doesnt sound much like the researching and testing of an atomic bomb, right? The problem is, no single depiction of the Princess works in the way youve described. While the post that I wrote does draw a lot of its evidence from the epilogue texts, there are instances in the main game that support either the reading of the Princess as something of a multiple metaphor, the presence of a female character openly referred to as being someone other than the Princess, or both these things. Take Time and Decision;
5. Time and Decision
She never understood the impulses that drove him, never quite felt the intensity that, over time, chiselled lines into his face. She was never quite close enough to him but he held her as though she were, whispered into her ear words that only a soul mate should receive.
Over the remnants of dinner, they both knew the time had come. He would have said: I have to go find the Princess, but he didnt need to. Giving a final kiss, hoisting a travel bag to his shoulder, he walked out the door.
Through all the nights that followed, she still loved him as though he had stayed, to comfort her and protect her, Princess be damned.
What can be said for both these blocks of text however, is the relation they share in the event of the Tim leaving note the mention of the travel bag in both sections, which is either clumsy writing (which I doubt) in that two different separations are being described so similarly, or not a coincidence at all, with the same event being mentioned twice, once as its happening and again from a future perspective. Its this that I think gives us grounds to take the interpretation of the Princess as different things in different instances; he left the Princess behind in the first passage in the terms of a relationship, and refers to the Princess in the second as the focus of his dedicated voyage, despite the female presence remaining outside of this. After that section in Time and Mastery, as well as two other instances;
For a long time, he though they had been cultivating the perfect relationship. He had been fiercely protective, reversing his mistakes so they would not touch her.
4. Time and Place
This improvement, day by day, takes him ever-closer to finding the Princess. If she exists she must! she will transform him, and everyone.
6. Hesitance
Perhaps in a perfect world, the ring would be a symbol of happiness, Its a sign of ceaseless devotion: even if he will never find the Princess, he will always be trying. He still will wear the ring.
These all sound more adaptable to what my friend and me outlined. The idea of a man so devoted to a single cause that he will revert any mistakes possible so as to keep the object of his focus out of the hands of others, of people who may wish to take it away from him.
But as I said, these are just the pieces that correlate with a lot of whats contained within the epilogue. My argument is that theres simply too much contained in the epilogue books too ignore; things like the quotations from Lifton and Bainbridge would seem like very odd things to throw in for just a single piece of text on a single screen. The correlations these have with the books leading up to it throughout the game are the ones I wanted to focus on, and I think that they can be made without risking shoehorning. Even the little things, like the "Your Country Needs You" WWII era poster shown in the World 5 painting, go some way to linking these two elements.
Also, as I stated at the started of the post that I wrote, the splitting of the female passage into three distinct voices, at three different times allows for the Braid theory in the first place that of three separate strands interwoven to make one distinctive pattern. The Princess as bomb, and the Princess as spurned partner could work through this (just dont ask me for the third we hear the story of the child looking through the candy store window, but his guardian is never alluded to as fitting the Princess role).
3. Time and Mastery
All those years ago, Tim had left the Princess behind, He had kissed her on the neck, picked up his travel bag, and walked out the door. He regrets this, to a degree. Now hes journeying to find her again, to show he knows how said it was, but also to tell her how it was good.
Doesnt sound much like the researching and testing of an atomic bomb, right? The problem is, no single depiction of the Princess works in the way youve described. While the post that I wrote does draw a lot of its evidence from the epilogue texts, there are instances in the main game that support either the reading of the Princess as something of a multiple metaphor, the presence of a female character openly referred to as being someone other than the Princess, or both these things. Take Time and Decision;
5. Time and Decision
She never understood the impulses that drove him, never quite felt the intensity that, over time, chiselled lines into his face. She was never quite close enough to him but he held her as though she were, whispered into her ear words that only a soul mate should receive.
Over the remnants of dinner, they both knew the time had come. He would have said: I have to go find the Princess, but he didnt need to. Giving a final kiss, hoisting a travel bag to his shoulder, he walked out the door.
Through all the nights that followed, she still loved him as though he had stayed, to comfort her and protect her, Princess be damned.
What can be said for both these blocks of text however, is the relation they share in the event of the Tim leaving note the mention of the travel bag in both sections, which is either clumsy writing (which I doubt) in that two different separations are being described so similarly, or not a coincidence at all, with the same event being mentioned twice, once as its happening and again from a future perspective. Its this that I think gives us grounds to take the interpretation of the Princess as different things in different instances; he left the Princess behind in the first passage in the terms of a relationship, and refers to the Princess in the second as the focus of his dedicated voyage, despite the female presence remaining outside of this. After that section in Time and Mastery, as well as two other instances;
For a long time, he though they had been cultivating the perfect relationship. He had been fiercely protective, reversing his mistakes so they would not touch her.
4. Time and Place
This improvement, day by day, takes him ever-closer to finding the Princess. If she exists she must! she will transform him, and everyone.
6. Hesitance
Perhaps in a perfect world, the ring would be a symbol of happiness, Its a sign of ceaseless devotion: even if he will never find the Princess, he will always be trying. He still will wear the ring.
These all sound more adaptable to what my friend and me outlined. The idea of a man so devoted to a single cause that he will revert any mistakes possible so as to keep the object of his focus out of the hands of others, of people who may wish to take it away from him.
But as I said, these are just the pieces that correlate with a lot of whats contained within the epilogue. My argument is that theres simply too much contained in the epilogue books too ignore; things like the quotations from Lifton and Bainbridge would seem like very odd things to throw in for just a single piece of text on a single screen. The correlations these have with the books leading up to it throughout the game are the ones I wanted to focus on, and I think that they can be made without risking shoehorning. Even the little things, like the "Your Country Needs You" WWII era poster shown in the World 5 painting, go some way to linking these two elements.
Also, as I stated at the started of the post that I wrote, the splitting of the female passage into three distinct voices, at three different times allows for the Braid theory in the first place that of three separate strands interwoven to make one distinctive pattern. The Princess as bomb, and the Princess as spurned partner could work through this (just dont ask me for the third we hear the story of the child looking through the candy store window, but his guardian is never alluded to as fitting the Princess role).
Anyway, Ill give this guy his account back now. Hopefully Ill be able to post on my own soon enough.
I finished the game now -- masterpiece.
Too bad i still can't understand if i finished the game... i unlocked the final Achievement, sure, but
Please answer me, i'm so confused =|
Too bad i still can't understand if i finished the game... i unlocked the final Achievement, sure, but
no final credits or anything, just the final level "Epilogue". is that how the game is supposed to end? also why there are some levels with no name? one of them is in the third world i think... i'm so confused.
another thing i don't get is why the green books in the epilogue didn't show any letters...
another thing i don't get is why the green books in the epilogue didn't show any letters...
Please answer me, i'm so confused =|
mattiewheels
And then the LORD David Bowie saith to his Son, Jonny Depp: 'Go, and spread my image amongst the cosmos. For every living thing is in anguish and only the LIGHT shall give them reprieve.'
i'm on world 4 (walking right=foward, walking left=rewind) , and the first couple of puzzles done broke my brain.
but i like that! i want this game to challenge me for a long time to come.
but i like that! i want this game to challenge me for a long time to come.
please someone, help me wrap my brain around how to get past enemies when they're always killing me at a certain spot at that frame of time.
permutated
Banned
I'm stuck on world six, I know I'm doing it right could someone just confirm it?
Ok,
Is that right? Am I not doing it fast enough?
Ok,
I think it's level 4 or 5, it's the one with the two ladders that let you reverse time without reversing yourself. I place the ring underneath the first ladder then jump up and activate the switch on the top level, then I jump down to the green platform and reverse time so the ladder is at the top again, then I jump over near the ladder and try to jump on it as high as I can on the first bounce (when it hits the floor) so I can get high enough up to grab the puzzle piece.
Is that right? Am I not doing it fast enough?
permutated
Banned
Wizpig said:
+1, please?
permutated said:
That isn't right.
If you realllly want a hint with this puzzle I'll give you one, but it's so much more fun working it out yourself.
You need to get those two platforms that are activated by the lever 'out of sync' with each other, so that one doesn't block the other.
permutated
Banned
Thanks anyway Strider, I'll just try to figure it out without ruining it then.
A Human Becoming
More than a Member
permutated said:
If you're at the one I'm thinking of, you're close but not quite there. The puzzle is a two step process and it sounds like you're trying to do it in one.
http://braid-game.com/news/tanod said:
artist: http://www.davidhellman.net/blog/
Check out "The Art of Braid" series on the artist's blog, he has several 1280x720 images
Just beat the game again, this time with
and now have a number of alternative theories rattling round the ol' noggin:
Anyway!, Maybe im getting way ahead of myself here with these far fetched theories but I have come across stranger ones!
all 8 stars
1st theory is solely based on the setting of the hub world and that is that Tim is actually dead and is in purgatory trying to reach heaven, the background of the first area may suggest hell and the cloud locations may suggest heaven. The "princess" concept could just be a metaphor for Tims eternal struggle to reach his divine intervention and discover heaven, of course this is a very lose theory but its a starting point non the less!
Theory number 2 is that the princess is actually Tim's mother, in the epilogue we are given an insight on Tim's childhood and how his mother would look after him and take him on walks, he also contemplates violence in one particular paragraph when wanting to get closer to a sweet shop, this sets a dark and sinister undertone and would explain the ending where she is running from Tim, for in Tim's memory his mother would still be young and he would have aged.
The final theory is that Tim is an alcoholic, nearly all of the paintings you collect in the game from puzzle pieces show images of Tim with an alcoholic beverage (be it wine or beer). The painting for stage 6 suggests that he may have lost his job due to his addiction and is burning his work documents and memories. In many cases the princess concept can be substituted for Tims alcohol obsession e.g "He had been fiercely protective, reversing all his mistakes so they would not touch her. Likewise, keeping a tight rein on her own mistakes, she always pleased him", this may not be the best example but many of the story segments seem to bode well with this alcoholic theory, also when we are told his mother stopped Tim from getting to the sweet shop this could be his young and innocent interpretation of a liquor store and Tim's mother is actually trying to prevent/stop his addiction.
Theory number 2 is that the princess is actually Tim's mother, in the epilogue we are given an insight on Tim's childhood and how his mother would look after him and take him on walks, he also contemplates violence in one particular paragraph when wanting to get closer to a sweet shop, this sets a dark and sinister undertone and would explain the ending where she is running from Tim, for in Tim's memory his mother would still be young and he would have aged.
The final theory is that Tim is an alcoholic, nearly all of the paintings you collect in the game from puzzle pieces show images of Tim with an alcoholic beverage (be it wine or beer). The painting for stage 6 suggests that he may have lost his job due to his addiction and is burning his work documents and memories. In many cases the princess concept can be substituted for Tims alcohol obsession e.g "He had been fiercely protective, reversing all his mistakes so they would not touch her. Likewise, keeping a tight rein on her own mistakes, she always pleased him", this may not be the best example but many of the story segments seem to bode well with this alcoholic theory, also when we are told his mother stopped Tim from getting to the sweet shop this could be his young and innocent interpretation of a liquor store and Tim's mother is actually trying to prevent/stop his addiction.
Anyway!, Maybe im getting way ahead of myself here with these far fetched theories but I have come across stranger ones!
Scottlarock
Banned
buy card at target this week for $15, reduces price of this game to $11.25. points rock, cuz of deals like this. hope they never go real money on us.stewacide said:
permutated
Banned
ICallItFutile said:
Just beat it, fuck that was tough.
Only one more piece to go to complete the main ladder, already have beaten worlds 2, 3, 4, and 6, have one more puzzle piece to go: World 5, puzzle 4. "Crossing The Gap"
Can't figure it out. It's the
long gap that you have to bounce on one of the guys but I can't get high enough yet. URGH. The one right near the door on the right side.
Gary Whitta
Member
You only have to take a look at Blow's placeholder graphics to see how much Hellman's art brought to the gamesangreal said:
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Man this game is great. I find myself playing it a little bit every day.
I initially didn't think much of the story, but after finishing the game a few times and reading people's theories, I have begun to think that it is rather deep indeed. I wonder if Blow will ever come out and discuss what his true intentions were with this story.
Anyway, the game is a blast to play. I don't see how everyone says this game has no replay value. It has just as much replay value as any other platformer / puzzler in my opinion. I keep going through the main game and messing with the time trials trying to get a better time. I have beat the goal time on every trial except the "Full Game" option.
This is definitely one my favorite games so far this year. It is by far the highest quality game on XBLA at the moment and I think it is up their with Portal in terms of excellent execution of an original concept.
I initially didn't think much of the story, but after finishing the game a few times and reading people's theories, I have begun to think that it is rather deep indeed. I wonder if Blow will ever come out and discuss what his true intentions were with this story.
Anyway, the game is a blast to play. I don't see how everyone says this game has no replay value. It has just as much replay value as any other platformer / puzzler in my opinion. I keep going through the main game and messing with the time trials trying to get a better time. I have beat the goal time on every trial except the "Full Game" option.
This is definitely one my favorite games so far this year. It is by far the highest quality game on XBLA at the moment and I think it is up their with Portal in terms of excellent execution of an original concept.
permutated
Banned
Gary Whitta said:You only have to take a look at Blow's placeholder graphics to see how much Hellman's art brought to the game
http://www.gamasutra.com/db_area/images/feature/3753/shot_1_01.jpg[IMG][/QUOTE]
Must. Kill. Self. :lol
permutated said:
lol, out of all the puzzles that one gave the most trouble too, and its not even that hard. You just have to know about how the game works and how certain things react. I figured it out after something happened on accident on level 6. It's really easy once you figure it out.
I could give you a better hint, but I dont want to spoil it for you.
Yeah, this.rhino4evr said:
Whatever you do DON'T approach the puzzle like you're playing Super Mario Bros. ... physics in this game are more realistic, just think at what would happen if you did "something" with a body [like that enemy] in real life. [hope i didn't make it harder to solve
... ugh, maybe i did]Just act naturally!
Gary Whitta said:You only have to take a look at Blow's placeholder graphics to see how much Hellman's art brought to the game
Yeah, I really briefly played the game when it looked like that. Glad I waited until its release to do more than about the first two or three puzzles, though. The look is such a huge part of its emotional pull.
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