Breaking Bad - Season 5, Part 1 - Sundays on AMC
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Mr. Blonde
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I think the biggest disappointment this season isn't skyler but Jesse. Pinkman has turned into this huge pussy that thinks he is just too pure to engage in the bad parts of drug activity.
Mr. Saturn
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MyEpitomeCliché;41568349 said:
I'm betting that the show doesn't end with the redemption of Walter White, and instead he suffers some sort of karmic fate, especially since Vince Gilligan gave an interview shortly before season 4 aired saying how he was a big believer in karma, and he mentioned some big time criminal or terrorist and how he had a hard time believing nothing bad would ever happen to this guy. That he could walk around free without paying a price.
Besides how does a character get redeemed when he's killed people?
So, if you consider all the bad shit Walt has done, which is a lot, then a karmic hammer is going to fall on Walt at the end of the series.
I realize you might be joking.
Really? So because Jesse doesn't want to be part of the drug trade anymore, you know because of the whole people and even children getting killed he's a pussy? Wouldn't that make him more of a normal human being? That seems unfair.
By the way I'm interested in knowing what the good parts of drug activity are.
I've been firmly in the "Walt is a shitty excuse for a human being" camp the entire time, but this is just obnoxious. It's ultimately a fictional television show, and trying to deduce the moral fiber of viewers who opine on it is moronic.
The sheer damage his particular line of business has caused is rarely discussed given its impact.
Walt not only started cooking meth, which is bad enough, but his talents allow him to cook a particularly potent version of it which gets users more addicted (and has even worse side effects). Users become addicted to a strong version and then can't use anything else, so they ruin themselves financially as well as physically and mentally. Part of his sales pitch to Declan in the last ep was that his stuff gets addicted users to pay more money.
That he's able to say these things completely straight without even considering the ramifications that arise from that is yet another thing that shows how immoral he is. He brags about the purity of his material even though it causes even more damage. The guy has never cared.
-Pyromaniac-
Member
I think the only thing we can definitely say is the ending won't be some clear cut Walt gets fucked up and the evil monster dies. This show will probably have a much more nuanced ending. For sure he'll get his comeuppance but the way it will be handled will be a lot more delicate than the black and white Walt we're seeing right now (mostly black lolz).
I bet it ends with Walt trying to redeem himself in some way, or do something decent for someone, but he still gets fucked up anyway, because frankly you can't do the stuff he has done and get away with it. I guess what I'm saying is it won't be a "FUCK YAHHH WALT IS DEAD!!!!" moment.
I bet it ends with Walt trying to redeem himself in some way, or do something decent for someone, but he still gets fucked up anyway, because frankly you can't do the stuff he has done and get away with it. I guess what I'm saying is it won't be a "FUCK YAHHH WALT IS DEAD!!!!" moment.
MidnightCowboy
Member
I'm with jarosh on this. Walt kills a man in the very first episode. He's been evil from the beginning, it's just warped to something far greater as his ego has taken control.
I don't wanna get into a debate about the exact definition of evil. I feel like that would get us too far off track. However, consciously letting someone die, not making any attempt to save them from certain death when you're in no immediate danger, specifically when it's not a fundamentally heinous person, is evil in my book.
I also don't think this specific act is *less* evil because Walt has such a clear-cut reason for it, one which involves protecting him and possibly Jesse. That motivation only exists because of Walt's previous criminal activities. Letting Jane die keeps Walt out of jail and with more money in his pockets. This is better for Walt, but certainly not for society or humanity as a whole.
It's either:
a) A scheming junkie dies, a criminal/killer/drug manufacturer continues his criminal activities
b) A scheming junkie stays alive, the criminal pays her off, continues his activities, worst case scenario his friend and partner dies at some point from his drug abuse
c) A scheming junkie stays alive, the criminal turns himself in or ends up in jail because of said junkie, same for his partner
Of those three I find a), the one we got, to be the worst possible outcome for society. And it required a conscious decision on Walt's part.
I dunno, he's definitely much worse now. And sure, he's had scruples, but he's gotten over those pretty quickly. He had the chance to get the money for his cancer treatment through legal means, but he was simply too proud. Instead he decided to become a meth cook and contribute to a dangerous drug being on the streets, never mind manufacturing an even more dangerous version of it. Sociopath as far as I'm concerned.
jarosh's post is right, but this thread is so far down the rabbit hole that unfortunately it doesn't matter much. nobody on either side is going to be convinced, meaning this thread'll remain fairly unbearable. oh well
he recently had a speech about how, since before the beginning of the show, he's been looking to build an empire or a legacy at all costs. regardless of the cost it could have on those around him. Walt said that himself.
Mr. Saturn
Member
So speaking of sociopaths, for those who have seen both Breaking Bad and The Sopranos, who do you think is worse? Tony or Walt. Oh and please spoiler tag any talk relating to The Sopranos, since maharq (sp) mentioned he's going through The Sopranos right now, and for anyone else going through the show right now as well.
Mr. Saturn
Member
True, although Tony at least had some self awareness of his actions through therapy, while Walt is able to rationalize everything he's done. Though I agree with you about this being a hard choice.
Right, they can ret-con everything now. Doesn't mean that in the beginning of the show, Walt was not acting like a complete psychopath. If in the next episode Walt has a speech that goes "I am a sociopath, I've been that way since before the show. I am Ted Bundy incarnate." That wouldn't mean much to me.
Nah, don't worry about me on this front.
At any rate, for where I'm at in The Sopranos I'd go with Walt. I think the redeeming factor with both Tony and Vic (also often mentioned in this thread in comparisons) is that we're shown evidence of them genuine caring for their families rather than mere possessiveness. Walt talks a good game about doing it for his family, but it's all talk.
I don't actually think of either of them as sociopaths, either. Being a killer doesn't make you a sociopath (nor are you necessarily not a sociopath just because you haven't killed anyone). But I definitely do think Walt is pretty much a textbook case. If he's not a sociopath he's at least borderline.
it's not a retcon because they're internal motivations that were never fully articulated to the audience. The entire first 4 seasons we can determine for ourselves how much we think Walt is doing all this for his family and how much he's doing it for his own pride. we could look at his actions and guess which we think is weighing heavier on him. but now we've had his own admission of what his reasons were. it's not a retcon, it's a recontextualization and an explanation of past events.
I'd agree that he might not have been an out-and-out sociopath earlier on. he attempted to conceal that part of him. yet it was the driving force behind everything.
Walt is finally conscious of his lifelong flaw of fatalistic pride, I don't get why some viewers aren't.
I don't think any of us disagree that it was an inevitable result of extorting Walt. I'm not sure how you think that's a defence of him, though.
I feel like everybody seems to have forgotten that it was Jesse's money she was "extorting" in the first place since Walt was keeping it against Jesse's will. Just like he's doing right now!
faceless007
Member
TIL we get our morals from how drug dealers act.
GitarooMan
Member
I can't believe someone in this thread called Jesse a pussy. That's fucked up.
Yeah, I agree. That's definitely taking it a bit too f-
Never mind
MidnightCowboy
Member
Doesn't want children killed? Pussy.
Air Zombie Meat
Member
Indeed, thats the only issue I have with the tone of this thread sometimes.
Cornballer
Member
- Vice Magazine Interview: I Tried to Talk Drugs with the Creator of 'Breaking Bad'
Interesting interview that's worth a read - particularly Gilligan's comments on Walt and the effectiveness of the DEA on the show.
Interesting interview that's worth a read - particularly Gilligan's comments on Walt and the effectiveness of the DEA on the show.
Eh, they're terribly wrong, but I don't think it necessarily says anything about them as people.
Brb, gonna go shoot up my mall. It's okay, because everyone is appointed to die anyway, whether I kill them myself or not, so I'm not doing anything wrong.
I do find it interesting, as beastmode was saying, that Mike being killed was apparently the final straw for a lot of people in terms of how they view Walt. You'd think that would have come much earlier.
Walt killing Mike is just another in a long line of despicable things he's done. He's never had a reason for the worst things he's done that has validated them in anything but his own mind.
Mike was perhaps the first time his own weak rationalization immediately failed him, as he realized soon after that Lydia also has the names, but that won't end up mattering since he'll just rationalize it as he always does in another way that points the blame elsewhere.
Walt killing Mike is just another in a long line of despicable things he's done. He's never had a reason for the worst things he's done that has validated them in anything but his own mind.
Mike was perhaps the first time his own weak rationalization immediately failed him, as he realized soon after that Lydia also has the names, but that won't end up mattering since he'll just rationalize it as he always does in another way that points the blame elsewhere.
Air Zombie Meat
Member
I guess it's because people actually liked Mike and there was no self protection angle to it.
Why is Walt killing Mike so despicable? Mike has wanted to kill Walt multiple times, Wanted to kill that woman while her kid was in the next room, murdered other people point blank surely.
In an old panel with Vince and the cast, Jane's death originally had Walt shooting her up with heroin. Then they changed it to him stroking her like a father then putting her on her back before the final draft. AMC asked if they really wanted to go there yet.
I don't feel like they have went 'there' yet.
They are flirting with a line where you can either choose to want and think he can redeem himself, or choose to think he is going to go out like Scar face.
Would he risk his life for Jesse?
Would he kill Hank?
Would he kill Skyler?
Those are the three major questions that cannot really be answered yet. One of those three scenarios are going to push him into the reedemable area or Scarface area.
His reasoning was always self-preservation. With Mike, though, it was just done in a fit of anger. It could be argued that Walt felt the need to silence him, and therefore acted in self-preservation, but I think it would be the weakest example of him acting that way.
Maybe my memory is rusty, but didn't he only try to leave after an attempt at violence against Gus failed?
Yeah, because every time he tried, Mike or Tyrus was on his ass.
Mike was certainly not a saint but at that point he was out of the picture. The guy was about to be out of Walt's life for good. Walt basically killed him because Mike said mean words to him, and tried to rationalize it to himself with the whole "Mike won't give up the names" thing, and even that ended up falling flat for Walt. So now he'll make up some other excuse to himself as to why Mike had to go.
Right, but that isn't really valid reasoning for his actions since Walt is the one who keeps putting himself in these situations. Nobody is forcing this life on him; he chose to do it, and he generally takes enjoyment from building his "empire" as he keeps unwittingly putting himself in a deeper hole.
Air Zombie Meat
Member
Look at puddles for an example, he was always able to construct arguments as to why Walts actions were justified (no matter how ridiculous they were) but when it came to Mike he drew a complete blank.
I'm just arguing about Walt's reasoning. I never said his choices were morally correct.
That's a good point. He had to get rid of Mike once he asked for the list and was rebuffed.
You can't really say he was out of the way. Mike was loyal to his boys in prison and surely would give them a heads up since Walt apparently wants to get rid of them.
Yeah, 100% logically he needed to kill Mike but mentally he did it in a childish manner.
I know, but I'm saying Walt's reasoning for Mike basically matches his reasoning for everything else. It's only meant to be convincing to him at the end of the day.
But even then, it's just another situation that Walt has nobody to blame for but himself. He threatened Mike to give up the names, and later on realized he didn't even have to go to Mike for those in the first place.
It's consistent with what Walt keeps doing - he creates bad situations and ends up doing unfortunate things to get himself out of them, and then those things end up creating a worse situation.
Damn the ricin plan with Jesse had totally slipped my mind there. Even then, though, he was trying to be sneaky and defend himself. The way he killed Mike just came off as irrational.
He was a pro. He knew his time was up with the DEA coming and Walt standing over him.
Air Zombie Meat
Member
Might be reading too much into things but I took it to be a way of showing Mikes character. He didn't kill out of spite or vengeance, it was just business to him. Once he knew he was dying he felt no need to shoot Walt. It was a sharp contrast to what Walt had just done.
edit: assuming you're talking about when walt took the gun off him with no resistance.
I don't buy that. It looked like he was going for his gun before he realized that Walt had already taken it. Just seems out of character.
The Horror the horror
Banned
Mike was a loose end.
There was no guarantee that the DEA wouldn't have apprehended Mike eventually, and although he showed loyalty to his own men by supporting them and keeping his word to them, there was no indication that he possessed the same sense of allegiance towards Walter. If the DEA pressured Mike to give up the name of the mastermind behind the blue Meth, what's to say he wouldn't have handed Walt, whom he despised, over?
There was no guarantee that the DEA wouldn't have apprehended Mike eventually, and although he showed loyalty to his own men by supporting them and keeping his word to them, there was no indication that he possessed the same sense of allegiance towards Walter. If the DEA pressured Mike to give up the name of the mastermind behind the blue Meth, what's to say he wouldn't have handed Walt, whom he despised, over?
SketchTheArtist
Member
He drove off because the time it would take to get his gun and aim at Walter would be too long. He decided to flee but lost control of his car because of the wound he had. He tried to hide since a direct confrontation again, with his wound, would've given Walt the upper hand.
I guess he realized he didn't have the strength to actually fight Walt to he just gave up.
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