It is quite remarkable how Cameron's attitude towards Turkey's future EU membership seems to have changed. Shortly after becoming prime minister he told Turkey he "would remain their strongest possible advocate" for EU membership, and as recently as 2015 said in Parliament "I can confirm to my Right Honourable Friend that the British government’s policy hasn’t changed and he’s absolutely right in what he says about the importance of helping Turkey [become an EU member state]".
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Brexit |OT| UK Referendum on EU Membership - 23 June 2016
- Thread starter QuicheFontaine
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Yep. Only reason I am voting to remain. Both sides have been all about fear and doooom! But at least with remain I know what being in the EU is like.
Turkey being in the EU made a lot of sense last year, looked to be a country with economic growth and with it being on all the borders, it made political sense too. Then their economy got fucked again and they're in too much of a state to want to have them in again. I'm with him about changing his mind on Turkey.
Yup, then the media wants their headlines so they'll not call out lies or challenge claims, they'll just print whatever makes their side look good. Then pointless debates with audience members so prepped that they'll just get a fuss caused so the programming is talked about. Most of them have said nothing.
Turkey was on the right track for so many years, but the political situation became worse and worse in the past year(s) to the point that it's questionable if it still works properly as a democracy. Turkey's access to EU is almost impossible now due to Erdogan's shenanigans, not because of Brexit.
Well, they were at the very least enabling ISIS, which Cameron almost certainly would have known about when he reaffirmed his support for Turkey's EU membership last year. Not to mention Erdogan is corrupt as fuck.
I won't criticise a politician for honestly changing their mind, but I suspect if this referendum were not happening - a referendum which he didn't really want anyway - then his opinion would not have changed.
Well not exactly. Although UK is one of the signatories of EEA agreement, the agreement is between EU states and EFTA states. If UK leaves the EU, the treaty has to be renegotiated as UK won't be a member of either.
You can find the EEA agreement here: http://www.efta.int/legal-texts/eea
Well true, UK's WTO membership is safe, but UK's role will change. All EU member states are WTO members as is the EU in it's own right. WTO's founding members were GATT members and European Communities (which later became the EU) after all.
As WTO's director-general said in this article: https://www.theguardian.com/busines...rexit-trade-talks-start-scratch-eu-referendum
You should read that article too, as it touches on your following points
Yes, Britain has a lot of bilateral deals. But you have to remember that as the UK is a member of the EU and in the single market, so while there are trade deals there's no bilateral free trade agreements. All the free trade agreements are through the EU.
There will be a lot of negotiations ahead.
You can read about UK's bilateral trade relations here: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/uk-bilateral-trade-relations-business-opportunities
Also worth to check out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bilateral_free_trade_agreements
I'm from Peterhead originally. Can confirm that overfishing destroyed the stock of fish. Came from fishing family too and used to hear the stories about catches not being as plentiful as before.
Not sure what you're referring to in particular, but generally speaking as a leave supporter I think Farage is damaged brand. I've always enjoyed listening to him speak about Europe and the EU, he's a great public speaker and he'll do well in any debate, but when he promised to retire and then didn't a lot of the goodwill people had towards him evaporated.
Frankfurter
Member
What's so bad about what he said?
He said: I remember the highly exciting period when we were preparing the Maastricht treaty, and step by step we were moving in the direction of the single currency It was a shared sentiment of foreign ministers and Prime Ministers that we were in charge of a big piece of history. This has totally gone.
We have full time Europeans when it comes to taking, and we have part-time Europeans when it comes to giving, said Mr Juncker, a former prime minister of Luxembourg who has spent more than 30 years around the EU institutions.
Too many politicians are listening exclusively to their national opinion. And if you are listening to your national opinion you are not developing what should be a common European sense and a feeling of the need to put together efforts. We have too many part-time Europeans.
Of course, the Telegraph made it sound super bad, by pulling the full time Europeans quote totally out of context.
Ravensmash
Member
It kind of relates to the all too common mentality of them and us.
It's "The European Parliament vs us" etc etc. kindly forgetting that we are part of it and could engage should we so wish.
If nothing has happened in Europe to our benefit, then that may have something to do with a significant proportion of our MEPs actively being inactive.
Oh, don't try the ol' "out of context". He stated national leaders should spend less time listening to their own electorate and spend more time "being Europeans". It was enough for a rebuke from Tusk, who clearly didn't have any worries about taking Juncker's remarks out of context.
Juncker is man who, like most of his ilk, clearly has little regard for the opinions of the public regarding the EU project.
JonathanEx
Member
I'd to apologise because I forgot to remind everybody that Power Monkeys started on Channel 4 tonight. Was very funny, and worth catching up on if you enjoyed the last run.
Ravensmash
Member
On a side note....
I've had nothing but the Richard Branson remain ad on GAF recently.
When can we expect results to start coming in?
Are we going to get a stream of regional results (making up the overall number) or is it going to be a boring slog until the overall number is in?
I'd much prefer the former!
I've had nothing but the Richard Branson remain ad on GAF recently.
When can we expect results to start coming in?
Are we going to get a stream of regional results (making up the overall number) or is it going to be a boring slog until the overall number is in?
I'd much prefer the former!
JonathanEx
Member
All the regional results come in, around 300, counting overnight. Your full election night fun.
Ha! Which section of society do you think is going to be feeling completely validated and justified if the out vote wins? That shit will get a hell of a lot worse.
Great, now I'm having nightmares.
Let's say for arguments sake out does win, does that mean Farage and his grubby little party will disappear? Not much point having an independence party if we have independence.
anonymous_abc
Member
CyclopsRock
Member
Basically everyone I know writing "remain" diatribes on Facebook come across as horrific, sanctimonious cunts. It's always a potent combination of snobbery and holier-than-thou crap.
phisheep
NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Nothing like that.
UKIP will ride the flood tide for the next 5+ years until we actually *gain* independence. Tories will split into "nasty party" and "nice party". "Nice party" will seek centrist bloc with LibDems and disaffected Blairites, so further marginalising Labour. Centrist bloc wins GE, facing UKIP/Nasty opposition with a referendum result behind them. Progressive leftism put back by a couple of generations. Chaos.
Vote Remain instead.
Sounds like it could be interesting!!
I'd imagine we're looking at BJ becoming PM should it happen?
SporeCrawler
Member
Can somebody explain why GB tried to block Jean Claude Juncker as Commission President when he was elected by the european people and now GB is accusing the EU of being too undemocratic?
phisheep
NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Interesting as in the ancient Chinese curse maybe.
And yes, I imagine BJ would be a shoo-in for PM - which is not something I look forward to - but you gotta admit the guy is like electoral gold-dust.
Roberto Larcos
Member
Because he's an absolute arse.
seriously. my facebook is peak insufferability and there are still two weeks to go
wow what a surprise you are a wealthy young london professional and you like an organisation that massively benefits you - yet will still make it out to be a wonderful gesture of how enlightened and cosmopolitan you are (while mercilessly mocking the poor white voters from the north who r dumb and bitter and deserve only contempt)
i'm sure if my social group was different i'd be livid at brexit arguments on there instead, it doesn't mean anything, it's just deeply annoying
CyclopsRock
Member
seriously. my facebook is peak insufferability and there are still two weeks to go
wow what a surprise you are a wealthy young london professional and you like an organisation that massively benefits you - yet will still make it out to be a wonderful gesture of how enlightened and cosmopolitan you are (while mercilessly mocking the poor white voters from the north who r dumb and bitter and deserve only contempt)
i'm sure if my social group was different i'd be livid at brexit arguments on there instead, it doesn't mean anything, it's just deeply annoying
I think that's the bit that gets me (and why, as a remain voter, I feel like I'm paying a hostage ransom) - it's a failure to acknowledge that there *are* decent arguments on both sides and that, on balance, whilst I think that remains arguments are stronger this doesn't nullify the arguments in favour of leaving. And, as you said, the EU affects different people and demographics in different ways, yet there's this constant, sneering snobbery.
There is a huge amount of personal infighting, even within groups that are normally fully on board with each other in a political and social sense.seriously. my facebook is peak insufferability and there are still two weeks to go
I've got to the stage where I am having to keep my mouth shut simply because of the potential fallout it would cause, even within the family!.
It's almost starting to feel like divide and conquer, 'we'll get the plebs fighting among themselves and they won't even notice what we're going to do' slight of hand, you look that way while the real trick is going on over there.
What are the decent arguments for leave though?
I don't think I've seen a single one that can't be refuted. For me, all the signs point towards remain. The reasons for leaving are basically all based on lies, misrepresented information and fear.
The only legit reason I could think of is that the EU could be better than it is in many ways, but that's a reason to stay in and make it better, not run away and throw away all the benefits of it.
I don't think I've seen a single one that can't be refuted. For me, all the signs point towards remain. The reasons for leaving are basically all based on lies, misrepresented information and fear.
The only legit reason I could think of is that the EU could be better than it is in many ways, but that's a reason to stay in and make it better, not run away and throw away all the benefits of it.
Our government will finally be able to put an end to workers rights and disabled peoples rights without the big bad EU stopping them.
No court would be able to overrule us...
And every time I ask a supporter to give me an example of when this has happened, they don't know. It's a point, but with no learned examples. Just pure fearmongering.
And whenever someone posts something to do with immigration, it's really about brown people. Which aren't mainly coming from the EU anyway...
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Also the idea that we would still have industries affect by EU court decisions, except we wouldn't be there when the policies get made and provide our input and influence was the best point Cameron has made but is for some reason too complicated for people to understand.
phisheep
NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
I see this a lot too. I think much of it comes from the - unwarranted - assumption that potential Leave voters are swallowing whole some of the more blatant lies in the Leave campaign. Mostly, in chatting to people, I find they are generally much more sensible to believe that stuff.
The main ones are, I think, sovereignty and excessive immigration. And running a close third is fear of what the EU might become rather than what it is now.
Of course there are arguments against these - but not so strong as to completely refute them.
That's not necessarily the case. I've come across many people who favour immigration from Commonwealth countries over immigration from the EU - so sort of the opposite of the "brown people" thing. It isn't so simple as racism.
Why commonwealth over EU? Is there not a perception that lots of low skilled workers seem to be coming over from the likes of Poland and newer countries to the EU.
How many concern themselves with real data? China is the most popular country of Origin - students I'm guessing. Then Spain - probably expats. Then India - probably students again. In addition:
I do not think we should so readily discount prejudice. Especially when the evidence suggests immigration woes are not largely to do with the EU at all.
CyclopsRock
Member
Larger numbers of immigration suppress wages, and this doesn't only affect unskilled, ~minimim wage employees but also things like trades; for working class people these were traditionally a reliable and effective way out of poverty, with plumbers, electricians etc in more or less predictable demand with good pay. A large influx of workers with these skills has suppressed wages significantly and spread the work for individuals thinner. Now for people like me - the aforementioned metropolitan liberals (lol) - this is great; we get cheaper services and we get to say "hey, look at all these great migrants, coming here, working hard, paying more taxes than they receive etc". Similarly, low wages at unskilled jobs keep priced down - also good for me. So yeah, thumbs up for immigration for me. But then, I don't work a minimum wage job whose only rises come when Osborne decrees it so, nor am I Dave the would-be plumber seeing my plan for my future massively altered in a negative way because the spark apprenticeship I did for however many years has been devalued a bunch.
I said on a previous page that I don't think that long term constitutional issues should be affected too much by short term political realities, so it annoys me a bit when I see people hand-wave away the £350m line by saying "that's a lie! We get some of it back as farm subsidies in Wales and, besides, do you really trust the Tories to spend that money wisely if we got it back?!" I mean, firstly, I'm not thrilled about the government subsidising farms in Wales anyway, so if they gutted that, good job BJ. But the idea that the EU is protecting us from our own electoral folly by taking our money and redistributing it is not only a bizarrely self-flaggilating view but it's also one framed entirely by who won one election last year. Are you (general you, not you you) ever going to trust a British PM and Chancellor to spend that money, or is it always better in the hands of the unswerving paragon's of the EU?
Which brings me onto what I think is my last point and it's one I've banged a gong a bunch about before so I shan't dwell, but generally I'm in favour of localism and the EU is the antithesis of this. It's effective as a forum for pan-national issues, of course, but the problems with large kind-of elected bodies like this is the larger the electorate, the larger the bodies of people who end up disenfranchised become. Yeah it's PR (mostly) but a law either passes or it doesn't, ultimately. This same issue plagues every election, but the smaller the electorate, the smaller those disenfranchised groups become. Furthermore, the commission isn't elected by any reasonable definition of the word.
Now, my answer to all of these is "the benefits outweigh the negatives" but a) that doesn't mean the negatives don't exist and b) I don't think Dave the plumber is an idiot or a racist or a fascist for not wanting to remain a part of a union which has had such a significant, negative impact on his prospects.
QuicheFontaine
Member
With respect to that top one, it was always a load of hokum. They literally can't restrict people coming here from the EU. All they can do is try to choke off immigration from other sources (e.g increasing evidence requirements, hiking fees and rejecting more applications from non-EU countries).
It would be like me "promising" my wife I'll get a pay rise this year. Sure I can work hard towards it but in the end it's not my decision to make. So my promise is meaningless!
CyclopsRock
Member
FYI, you are basically exactly the person I'm talking about. Absolutely get fucked.
phisheep
NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
It varies a lot depending where people are from and what they do. I was chatting to a couple from Northampton yesterday, whose biggest issue appears to be overcrowded rental houses full of Somalis. A builder friend complains of his costs being undercut by East Europeans. A Nurse trainer in the NHS complains of western EU immigrants with very poor English who are nonetheless admitted as qualified nurses, but has no problem with english-speaing Indians and Pakistanis.
Around here it is mostly about Eastern Europeans picking up the seasonal jobs and the care-home work which is pretty much all we have.
It depends very much what people see in their everyday life. Not so simple as "a perception".
All of them, I think. At least all the ones I have spoken too. But "real data" to them is not nationwide statistics, but what affects their community and their jobs. It's still real and it is still data, we should not dismiss it so lightly.
Of course there is some prejudice. And some people I talk to are at pains to appear non-prejudiced even when they clearly are. Many of them, though, appear to have specific, not-necessarily-prejudiced, real concerns.
You last point is the key one though - that much of this is not really related to EU membership.
QuicheFontaine
Member
I get this impression from quite a lot of Remainers. For example, Danowat worrying that we perhaps "don't deserve" to be in the EU (unlike Bulgaria). Just an odd mindset to me - we do pay for the privilege! Feels to me like someone paying their council tax, then fretting that they don't deserve to have their bins collected.
No you. Have you actually talked to your hypothetical dave the plumber? I live in pretty much the exact same neighbourhood you are talking about. And the immigration concerns have nought to do with your imagined salary suppression. It's the blame game - housing crisis, NHS waiting lists, resources stretched.
Heck the biggest story in Brexit this week is do with the heckler at the debate. And guess what he is saying.
It was purely anecdotal. Britain First or other Brexit oriented Facebook pages afraid of us being a Muslim country. Not saying every Brexiter thinks this way.
But anyway, I'm not the type of person you're talking about.
* Maybe not for the average person, but for some big companies, it is a plus. The EU clampdown on tax avoidance is likely to be much harsher than the British government's initiatives. For them, the faster we get out of it, the better.
* The Tory government is much more 'business friendly' when it comes to worker rights, so see a lot of those employment rights watered down when we leave the EU, when MPs get to implement 'benefits.'
Heck the EU is already calling our clampdown on Welfare borderline illegal - The Tories tried to pass on further disability cuts only months before.
So passing laws will be easier for single dominant parties, which is kinda important for democracies to flourish.
So leaving the EU benefits the Tories mostly. And since the country voted in Tories, the country ought to trust it going it alone.
CyclopsRock
Member
Yes. Phispheep above also mentioned similar concerns. And it's true, too; there *are* arguments against immigration that have nothing to do with "brown people" and pretending that everyone who has a problem with it is just a closet racist is sweeping the problems under the rug.
Think I posted this before, but relevant again now
"This isnt the fault of migrants its a failure of Government."
"Some communities can change dramatically and rapidly, and that can be disconcerting for some people, that doesnt make them Little Englanders, xenophobes or racists. More people living in an area can put real pressure on local services like GP surgeries, schools and housing."
"Within the context of austerity, immigration can indeed squeeze our public services further. But if we had properly funded public services, it wouldnt be a problem."
With all due respect, you provided a weak almost unheard of voice of concern against immigration. Not that shouting 'racist' every time helps.
What gets me frustrated is that resource management is mostly a national government problem. And honest people trying to solve the housing crisis for example have to sway the public by dealing with artificial constructs. Cutting down the EU immigration levels won't build more houses.
The UK government should take responsibility for its woes and not blame it on immigrants if and when it isn't.
It's a shame the Jeremy Corbyn talks too much sense for the media to take notice of him. As he said in this same speech, the coalition government scrapped the fund that helped communities deal with influxes of migrants. If the Leave voters directed their understandable anger about immigration at the government (where it belongs) and voted for an alternative instead of for a protest party who have no agenda other than to stay in elected office as long as they possibly can, we'd be on the way to easing the problem by now.
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