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[CyclopsRock]

We speak a lot about immigrants coming to the UK and failing to integrate and yet we pretty much refuse to integrate in Europe, hardly anyone is multilingual, we just expect everyone to speak English, where ever we happen to be, we take a sideways glance at any other nationally because we think they want to take from us.

There are loads of things that I don't need to know and thus haven't actually learned. Plate spinning. Heart bypass surgery. Polite dogging etiquette. English is the lingua franca. I admire people who can speak multiple languages and I appreciate that it's a skill with benefits beyond the direct usefulness of that language. But all that time that we don't spend learning other languages can be used to learn other things, which also bring their own benefits. English being the lingua franca is a benefit to be mined, not a source of national shame.

 

[danowat]

Or that other member countries equip their people much better for being members of Europe?

 

[QuicheFontaine]

By multilingual do you mean their own language plus English? Or are there some other languages going on too?

 

[danowat]

French, German, Russian and English mainly.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

There are loads of things that I don't need to know and thus haven't actually learned. Plate spinning. Heart bypass surgery. Polite dogging etiquette. English is the lingua franca. I admire people who can speak multiple languages and I appreciate that it's a skill with benefits beyond the direct usefulness of that language. But all that time that we don't spend learning other languages can be used to learn other things, which also bring their own benefits. English being the lingua franca is a benefit to be mined, not a source of national shame.

Don't more people speak Spanish than English? (just as an example)

Seems like if that's the case (and I think it might be, can't check right now), we're actually just being lazy and full of double standards...

 

[Chinner]

We're giving 350 million a week so that Europeans can learn to speak OUR language. I've had enough of these unelected bureaucrats.

#voteleave

 

[danowat]

Don't more people speak Spanish than English? (just as an example)

Seems like if that's the case (and I think it might be, can't check right now), we're actually just being lazy and full of double standards...

Maybe we need to start learning Chinese if we really want to deal with 'THE WORLD' rather than Europe?

 

[Alx]

By multilingual do you mean their own language plus English? Or are there some other languages going on too?

In many countries learning at least two foreign languages is mandatory at school. Not that everybody is good at it, but they do get to learn the basics.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Maybe we need to start learning Chinese if we really want to deal with 'THE WORLD' rather than Europe?

Might be an idea.

I do think we sometimes overestimate just how important English is on a global scale. That's not to say it isn't in certain sectors (perhaps the most important ones right now), but I'm pretty we're not the the most spoken language and might actually be falling down the table as other countries start to develop their economies and become more relevant on the world stage.

 

[anonymous_abc]

In many countries learning at least two foreign languages is mandatory at school. Not that everybody is good at it, but they do get to learn the basics.

Yea in Germany anyone with the equivalent of an A-Level is required to take English pretty much all the time and a second foreign language (which depends on the school) for at least 3 years.

And knowing the English system of teaching foreign languages we are miles ahead on that.
It's almost ridiculously pathetic how much 'German' my cousin learnt at school in Ipswich in 4 years....

 

[Lego Boss]

I'm starting to wonder if we actually deserve to be in the EU.

I am in Bulgaria at the moment everyone is multilingual, it feels very European despite them being relatively new to the EU, they still have a strong national identity they still have a strong culture.

Britain just feels so seperate from it all, we're stuck in a time warp where we are still a super power and have just won the world cup.

We speak a lot about immigrants coming to the UK and failing to integrate and yet we pretty much refuse to integrate in Europe, hardly anyone is multilingual, we just expect everyone to speak English, where ever we happen to be, we take a sideways glance at any other nationally because we think they want to take from us.

I am starting to wonder if voting out and emigrating if we do.

I can understand some of those frustrations, but l don't think it's correct that everyone feels like that. It can be frustrating when you go abroad, start to speak in the native tongue and then the person you are talking to speaks English either because they my want to practise or that they can speak better English than you can their mother tongue.

Also what is striking about the vast majority of Europeans is how much of an effect our culture has on their perception of the UK, which is often and overwhelmingly positive.

I think your point is generally correct, but equally the merits of the UK as part of Europe outweighs it's demerits.

 

[danowat]

Might be an idea.

I do think we sometimes overestimate just how important English is on a global scale. That's not to say it isn't in certain sectors (perhaps the most important ones right now), but I'm pretty we're not the the most spoken language and might actually be falling down the table as other countries start to develop their economies and become more relevant on the world stage.

It's certainly a bridge language, and that does have its merits, I can't remember many countries where the people can't (or won't in the case of France!!) speak to you in some form of English, but it just brings home how.... I don't know, superior? we think we are?
I certainly don't feel very European, I feel like an Englishman in Europe, as I always have, and I think this is one of the issue we have with being in Europe, that we have never integrated properly.
I see the polls have again today shown that the exit campaign is gaining more traction, thankfully I never saw the TV debate last night!

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Maybe we need to start learning Chinese if we really want to deal with 'THE WORLD' rather than Europe?

Don't more people speak Spanish than English? (just as an example)

Seems like if that's the case (and I think it might be, can't check right now), we're actually just being lazy and full of double standards...

I mean, sure learning those languages will help you to connect with a very large number of people. But if a Chinese person and a Spanish person are trying to do business with one another, they'll do it in English.

 

[danowat]

I mean, sure learning those languages will help you to connect with a very large number of people. But if a Chinese person and a Spanish person are trying to do business with one another, they'll do it in English.

Quite probably, although I've done business with the French and it's not unusual for them to refuse to communicate in English!.
I guess the point is, is it right to expect them to communicate in English?.

 

[Ashes]

Might be an idea.

I do think we sometimes overestimate just how important English is on a global scale. That's not to say it isn't in certain sectors (perhaps the most important ones right now), but I'm pretty we're not the the most spoken language and might actually be falling down the table as other countries start to develop their economies and become more relevant on the world stage.

Nope. English really is the world's language.

People talk up Chinese, but that is more incidental due to birth rates. English is the common interpreter, the second language of choice, the language of finance and business, amongst other reasons.

E.g. more people in China will learn English (estimated from 100m to 300m) or speak it as a secondary language, than the English speaking world learns Chinese. The power balance is set and I don't see it changing.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

In many countries learning at least two foreign languages is mandatory at school. Not that everybody is good at it, but they do get to learn the basics.

Yea in Germany anyone with the equivalent of an A-Level is required to take English pretty much all the time and a second foreign language (which depends on the school) for at least 3 years.

And knowing the English system of teaching foreign languages we are miles ahead on that.
It's almost ridiculously pathetic how much 'German' my cousin learnt at school in Ipswich in 4 years....

I learnt two foreign languages in school (three if you count Latin!), but as Flix says the issue is that the level expected is absolutely pathetic. I got a B in French at GSCE and I can seriously only say "Please make breakfast" and "Where is the beach?", and even that I'm sure I get slightly wrong on the verb endings and stuff.

 

[danowat]

I got a B in French at GSCE and I can seriously only say "Please make breakfast" and "Where is the beach?"

What more do you need!!

I always try and speak a little of the native language if possible, most of the time it just reverts to English because my inflection generally sounds like I am an extra in 'Allo 'Allo.

 

[phisheep]

Quite probably, although I've done business with the French and it's not unusual for them to refuse to communicate in English!.
I guess the point is, is it right to expect them to communicate in English?.

I used to cheat when doing this. If I had a meeting with French guys, I'd borrow a Swede or a German or two to take along with me and then everything would be done in English.

Shameful I know, but it worked.

 

[Moosichu]

Languages are a separate issue. Just for the health benefits making the majority of the British population bilingual would be great. We really need to look at how other countries teach languages and introduce that here.

 

[JonathanEx]

I used to cheat when doing this. If I had a meeting with French guys, I'd borrow a Swede or a German or two to take along with me and then everything would be done in English.

Shameful I know, but it worked.

Hey, that's the sort of resourceful underhand thinking that makes this country GREAT.

 

[Tak3n]

I am presuming if we vote to leave and we do what the leave camp suggested and say anyone before 2020 will be free to stay, we can expect a deluge of people coming here to miss the deadline...

Of course what happens if they go back? are they then subject to immigration controls? we could have a situation where people wont go, can not claim benefits anymore, ergo end up homeless

 

[milanbaros]

French, German, Russian and English mainly.

Are you sure you aren't just in a touristy area?

English is the world's business language. I work for a network firm with offices in over 80 countries. International communication is in English.

I would say that English is establishing itself more as the dominant language. Get a German and a Chinese business talking to each other. It will be in English.

We shouldn't be ashamed it is a massive benefit. It makes doing business and travelling around the world a lot easier.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Languages are a separate issue. Just for the health benefits making the majority of the British population bilingual would be great. We really need to look at how other countries teach languages and introduce that here.

Health benefits?

 

[danowat]

Are you sure you aren't just in a touristy area?

Travelling around, but obviously languages are more prevalent in metropolitan areas than rural villages.

 

[anonymous_abc]

Health benefits?

There are many studies that find bilingual people suffer less from dementia in old age.

Bilingualism delays age at onset of dementia, independent of education and immigration status

 

[Moosichu]

There are many studies that find bilingual people suffer less from dementia in old age.

Bilingualism delays age at onset of dementia, independent of education and immigration status

This is what I was mainly thinking of.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

There are many studies that find bilingual people suffer less from dementia in old age.

Bilingualism delays age at onset of dementia, independent of education and immigration status

Very interesting, I had no idea.

 

[Jasup]

Are you sure you aren't just in a touristy area?

English is the world's business language. I work for a network firm with offices in over 80 countries. International communication is in English.

I would say that English is establishing itself more as the dominant language. Get a German and a Chinese business talking to each other. It will be in English.

We shouldn't be ashamed it is a massive benefit. It makes doing business and travelling around the world a lot easier.

English skills are usually a requirement for employment in international firms and other organisations that work internationally. So it's pretty much expected.

On the other hand, just last week I was in an European youth work conference where many of the attendees didn't have that English proficiency requirement in their work. The picture was a bit different there. While most had rudimentary skills, usually those who weren't proficient had others to translate what was said. It wasn't always to their native tongue either, but sometimes into some other secondary language.

During free time when you enter into conversations, the languages were juggled a lot - if one language failed you could always try another that might work better. If I had only known English I would have been able to speak with maybe 70% of the people, but because I also speak German that number jumped to 98%.

 

[Irminsul]

I certainly don't feel very European, I feel like an Englishman in Europe, as I always have, and I think this is one of the issue we have with being in Europe, that we have never integrated properly.

I'm inclined to agree with that from the outside perspective. I also think that's why the "Remain" campaign is struggling. You simply don't have a lot of convinced Europeans that could rally for them. Sure, people see the benefits of being in the EU, but very few people seem to actually like it.

You could think that it's similar in other countries if you listen to what people in general have to say about "the EU", but that's mostly them talking about the institutions, as shown, e.g., by 80% of Germans wanting you to stay in.

If we go on a personal level, I'd say I do feel European first and German second. Which means that some part of me actually wants you to leave, because I honestly think real European integration could go tremendously faster in that case. And yes, I would hope that in that case the EU makes an example of you to show everyone what they'd miss without it.

Well, or the whole European project crumbles completely if you leave. The last year or so has been eye-opening regarding that, and not in a good way.

Therefore and because I'm an "offender by conviction" regarding European integration, I hope you stay in. Maybe your "Remain" campaign should really press the issue of "how out" the Leave guys want to be, because that certainly would show some splits happening.

 

[Coxy100]

I'm inclined to agree with that from the outside perspective. I also think that's why the "Remain" campaign is struggling. You simply don't have a lot of convinced Europeans that could rally for them. Sure, people see the benefits of being in the EU, but very few people seem to actually like it.

You could think that it's similar in other countries if you listen to what people in general have to say about "the EU", but that's mostly them talking about the institutions, as shown, e.g., by 80% of Germans wanting you to stay in.

If we go on a personal level, I'd say I do feel European first and German second. Which means that some part of me actually wants you to leave, because I honestly think real European integration could go tremendously faster in that case. And yes, I would hope that in that case the EU makes an example of you to show everyone what they'd miss without it.

Well, or the whole European project crumbles completely if you leave. The last year or so has been eye-opening regarding that, and not in a good way.

Therefore and because I'm an "offender by conviction" regarding European integration, I hope you stay in. Maybe your "Remain" campaign should really press the issue of "how out" the Leave guys want to be, because that certainly would show some splits happening.

That sums up me pretty well. I see the economic benefits of the EU but I simply don't like it.

If we'd never joined the EU and this referendum was asking us do we want to join? I think most of us would say no.

 

[kmag]

EU immigration? I'm guessing most of those non-British doctors are Indian and Pakistani...

Most sure, but the numbers for EU Doctors is pretty high (German 937,Greek 1,357,Irish 1,900 etc) given there's already a shortage it's hard to see where you'd replace them from. About 10,000 EU doctors which is more than the 8,000 odd from India.

http://www.theguardian.com/news/dat...hs-compare-nationalities-romanians-bulgarians

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Most sure, but the numbers for EU Doctors is pretty high (German 937,Greek 1,357,Irish 1,900 etc) given there's already a shortage it's hard to see where you'd replace them from. About 10,000 EU doctors which is more than the 8,000 odd from India.

http://www.theguardian.com/news/dat...hs-compare-nationalities-romanians-bulgarians

So what's the actual percentage of EU NHS doctors? Isn't it more like 13% then?

As for where we'd replace them from, doctors would still be able to come here from EU countries post-Brexit. Even with an EU immigration system in place, a doctor is a highly skilled job which would easily qualify for entry even on an Australian-style points based system.

I mean, look how many doctors are coming from the Indian sub-continent. I can tell you from personal experience that the immigration requirements coming from there are extremely onerous compared to EU freedom of movement and still lots are coming.

And hypothetically, if we weren't in the EU and could control immigration from those countries, we could actually relax immigration requirements / increase immigration quotas for other countries and get more doctors from there.

 

[Phantast2k]

@dats
525,000 registered to vote before last night's deadline. 302k of them were under 35.

This is probably good for the Brexit opponents.

 

[Beefy]

I think the biggest things that has stopped the UK feeling like part of the EU. Is the fact we are a island, unlike alot of mainland Europe we haven't got several countries next to us. Also us being really close to the US would effect it.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

@dats
525,000 registered to vote before last night's deadline. 302k of them were under 35.

This is probably good for the Brexit opponents.

Young people are just more disorganised and leave things to the last minute

You're right that it's probably going to benefit Remain though

 

[Number45]

@dats
525,000 registered to vote before last night's deadline. 302k of them were under 35.

This is probably good for the Brexit opponents.

Just had a co-worker that's moved down here recently tell me that the registration site was crawling last night due to last minute traffic.

 

[Vanguard]

The site handling registrations crashed last night due to demand with some calling for the deadline to be extended: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36476176

edit: Slightly beaten xD

 

[Camp Freddie]

It's worth noting that ironically, English is the main EU language. Not just a de facto lingua franca either. It's actually embedded in some of the EU rules.

I have to submit regulatory documents in most of Europe to show compliance with various EU and national rules.
I have to submit all documents in English, and national regulators cannot demand them in their own language (except for stuff like product label translations and other 'consumer-facing' things). If they want translations, they have to do it at their own expense. In contrast, national regulators can demand that any non-English documents are translated into English.
In any multinational work, national regulators must issue all their comments in English, even for work that concerns only Southern Europe or Scandinavian/Baltic countries.

This is a massive advantage for British companies. You must have really good English language skills to do my job, which is true for 100% of UK graduates, but a really tough barrier to entry for continental Europeans. Most Europeans doing my job have spent a year or two doing some UK-based work/academia to get the necessary fluency. It's also a major issue for any Eastern EU companies and governments, since any staff born before the 1980's didn't learn much English as school.

If the UK votes leave then many of my colleagues (both British and immigrant), they'll just take themselves and their jobs to Europe. I'll be staying of course, partly because the ability to ask where the railways station is or how much a croissant costs is insufficient for me to start a new life on the French Riviera.

 

[Number45]

"Ou est la bibliotheque?" is the only French you need anyway. The library will have all the information you need

Spoiler

hopefully in English

.

 

[Rich!]

Voting out

This hot weather can fuck off back to europe

 

[Goodlife]

It's worth noting that ironically, English is the main EU language. Not just a de facto lingua franca either. It's actually embedded in some of the EU rules.

I have to submit regulatory documents in most of Europe to show compliance with various EU and national rules.
I have to submit all documents in English, and national regulators cannot demand them in their own language (except for stuff like product label translations and other 'consumer-facing' things). If they want translations, they have to do it at their own expense.
In any multinational work, national regulators must issue all their comments in English, even for work that concerns only Southern Europe or Scandinavian/Baltic countries.

This is a massive advantage for British companies. You must have really good English language skills to do my job, which is true for 100% of UK graduates, but a really tough barrier to entry for continental Europeans. Most Europeans doing my job have spent a year or two doing some UK-based work/academia to get the necessary fluency.

If the UK votes leave then many of my colleagues (both British and immigrant), they'll just take themselves and their jobs to Europe. I'll be staying of course, partly because the ability to ask where the railways station is or how much a croissant costs is insufficient for me to start a new life on the French Riviera.

Having English as the official EU language, where nobody in the EU speaks (as their first language) would be a bit weird

 

[KingSnake]

Having English as the official EU language, where nobody in the EU speaks (as their first language) would be a bit weird

No problem, we will adopt the Irish accent. Or the Scottish one, eventually.

 

[Goodlife]

No problem, we will adopt the Irish accent. Or the Scottish one, eventually.

Shit, forgot about Ireland....

 

[Ravensmash]

The site handling registrations crashed last night due to demand with some calling for the deadline to be extended: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36476176

edit: Slightly beaten xD

The Sky News comments strongly disagree.

They believe that it will just be lots of remain voters and extending the deadline for lazy people will be an affront to democracy.

I don't know why I'm hooked on reading that crap.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

The Sky News comments strongly disagree.

They believe that it will just be lots of remain voters and extending the deadline for lazy people will be an affront to democracy.

I don't know why I'm hooked on reading that crap.

I'd be fine with extending the deadline - if people were notified that they would be able to register up to midnight, then found that they couldn't at 11:30pm, then that's not really 'fair', is it? Give 'em an extra day.

I don't think Leavers should be getting their knickers in a twist anyway. Yes, these late registrants and mostly young people who are more likely to vote Remain. But you would expect that people registering online would be young people who are more au fait with technology. Of course old people would prefer to get their polling card through the post, and I would expect turnout to be much higher amongst oldies on the day.

Additionally, while it looks like the late registrants are "mostly" young people, it's really quite an even split. Naturally the headline is "THREE HUNDRED THOUSAND UNDER 35", but when you look at the numbers there's also 223,000 over 35. So like, 57% vs 43%. It's maybe not the game changer it's being made out to be.

 

[anonymous_abc]

Automatic registration for everyone! Yay!

One of the fine advantages of having mandatory public registration in Germany...

 

[CharmingCharlie]

I'd be fine with extending the deadline - if people were notified that they would be able to register up to midnight, then found that they couldn't at 11:30pm, then that's not really 'fair', is it? Give 'em an extra day.

Meh don't give a shit either way. Personally people have had months to do this but no they were moronic enough to leave it till the last minute. I do wonder though whether Cammy boy and Co would be sooooooo keen to extend the deadline if it was shown that late registration favoured Brexit.

I don't think it makes a great deal of difference whether they extend the deadline or not. It is pretty obvious remain are going to win. I kinda find all this panic from some people worrying about leave winning pretty hilarious

Automatic registration for everyone! Yay!

One of the fine advantages of having mandatory public registration in Germany...

Yeah erm NO thanks. Great it works for you and your country but I would rather not have that shit in my country :-D Just another example of how the UK is different to Europe.

 

[Number45]

Yeah erm NO thanks. Great it works for you and your country but I would rather not have that shit in my country :-D Just another example of how the UK is different to Europe.

What's the problem with being on the electoral register? Serious question, I don't understand what the down side is.

 

[Broken Joystick]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politi...ng&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central

EU vote registration deadline extended

The deadline for registering to vote in the EU referendum has been extended, the government has said.

Cabinet Office minister Matt Hancock said the government would legislate to extend the cut-off until midnight on Thursday.

It follows a computer glitch which left some people unable to sign up before the original midnight Tuesday deadline.

The Electoral Commission urged people to sign up until the end of Thursday in order to vote on 23 June.

 

[Alx]

What's the problem with being on the electoral register? Serious question, I don't understand what the down side is.

I suppose some people want to keep the possibility to be "off the grid". Obligatory registration can sound scary for people who are not used to it. I can somehow understand that, although the risks of abuse are low, and almost everybody has a paper/electronic track nowadays.