Well Boris seems to think getting out of the EU will force them to negotiate a better deal for us than David Cameron could.
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Brexit |OT| UK Referendum on EU Membership - 23 June 2016
- Thread starter QuicheFontaine
- Start date
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Well Boris seems to think getting out of the EU will force them to negotiate a better deal for us than David Cameron could.
Mmmm, not exactly.
Juncker was EPP's lead candidate for the President in 2014 Parliamentary Elections. And as is stated in the Lisbon treaty, the biggest parliamentary group gets to nominate the President of the European Commission.
So people voted for EPP and Juncker got the job because he was the lead candidate.
Although I have very little sympathy for Juncker or the EPP, even I admit that he was elected.
Psychotext
Member
Cheers. I suspect the people favouring leaving the EU might be in for a nasty surprise if it happens then.
QuicheFontaine
Member
I disagree. We can only leave now because we've always kept one foot out of the door. Look at Greece - they'd like to leave but they're too entrenched now.
JonathanEx
Member
There'll be one the week before the vote and one the day after.
anonymous_abc
Member
anonymous_abc
Member
Yes it is quite barmey...
phisheep
NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
You can't do it by referendum, as that will scupper our negotiating position. So it'll all be backroom political deals. About as democratic as Saudi Arabia.
Camp Freddie
Member
I think that a Leave vote would force a snap general election. Except I think that Cameron brought in fixed term laws a few years ago that prevent him from easily doing that.
...just looked it up and he needs a 2/3rds majority to vote for an early election - which would be possible if Labour agree and they whip the fuck out of anyone trying to dissent.
Otherwise, the answer is that Cameron resigns, Boris or Gove take over and do whatever the fuck they want with no mandate whatsoever.
Unless Boris/Gove is really going to give the NHS another 350 million per week, prevent the free movement of people from the EU and whatever else he's claimed.
...just looked it up and he needs a 2/3rds majority to vote for an early election - which would be possible if Labour agree and they whip the fuck out of anyone trying to dissent.
Otherwise, the answer is that Cameron resigns, Boris or Gove take over and do whatever the fuck they want with no mandate whatsoever.
Unless Boris/Gove is really going to give the NHS another 350 million per week, prevent the free movement of people from the EU and whatever else he's claimed.
jufonuk
not tag worthy
I want to stay . Starting to worry if the idiots get their way and we vote ourselves out.
What happens to the people living here who are working ? The non uk nationals from the EU who married uk citizens (my wife is French I am English)
Are we really that stupid to vote ourselves out ?
What happens to the people living here who are working ? The non uk nationals from the EU who married uk citizens (my wife is French I am English)
Are we really that stupid to vote ourselves out ?
QuicheFontaine
Member
That would be a bit silly. If Scotland votes to leave the EU, and then we leave the EU, what's the rationale for another Indyref?
They'd be better off voting to Remain, hoping that the rUK carries the Leave vote and then pointing to the divergence of opinion as a basis for a new referendum.
People being silly isn't a new thing. Specially when it is John Major and Blair who are saying it...
Nothing happens to them.
QuicheFontaine
Member
Lol, touche!
phisheep
NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
It only needs a simple majority on a no-confidence motion - followed by packing the chamber for 2 weeks so that nobody sneaks through a confidence motion on an adjournment. (Fixed Term Parliaments Act 2011 s2(3))
I can just see some people going "well that's how we get independence then" why not actually thinking about anything else.
CyclopsRock
Member
What Scotland does surely depends on what happens with the UK's relationship to the EU? If we're in a FTA with them then yeah, they can bounce. If we're not, are they going to want to leave a FTA with their largest trading partner to join one where they have way less customers for their goods?
Some fucks need to get got, you know?
Some fucks need to get got, you know?
Royal_Phalanx
Member
Is there a positive reason to leave the EU other than 'dem immigrunts are taking our jerbs'? Leave is going all out and focusing only on immigration because they know they've lost the economic argument. Also, I'd actually now prefer that the EU has an influence on our law considering that the Tories want to repeal the Human Rights Act and both the Left and Right wing parties in this country just voted for mass surveillance. I don't trust the EU parliament at all either, but at least the EU courts have protected more of our rights.
Carl2291
Member
Anyone here legally remains here if they wish to stay. I can't source it but I remember reading about it a couple of years back.
We aren't just going to start kicking everyone out.
We're not voting leave. It isn't even close here.
Greece. Greece is the reason.
CyclopsRock
Member
I don't think the suppression of wages is either weak or unheard of.
Resource management is indeed a problem of government, which is why I intentionally avoided things like the housing crisis, public services getting overloaded etc. I was talking about the market forces which dictate wages being impacted by an expansion of the work force, which isn't a problem of national government, even though the minimum wage is an attempt to prod this equilibrium.
I am also at pains to make the point that at no stage did I "blame the immigrants" - they are, as most people are, making rational decisions when presented with their options. The vast majority work hard, contribute to the country, pay their taxes etc which is why I'm voting remain. But those rational decisions can have negative impacts on other people who are already here, and that's really rather the point; That national statistics can give you a holistic overview but the EU affects different people in different ways and it's clearly not uniformly positive for everyone which is why the aforementioned sanctimonious diatribes on Facebook (and here, and everywhere else) annoy me so much. They're demonstrate a failure to acknowledge that one person's experience isn't the same as another and an appeal to statistics doesn't change the reality of an individual's experiences.
Leave EU? Isn't the results a total of the whole of UK etc.
phisheep
NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
What he's saying is there doesn't seem to be any evidence of tactical voting in Scotland to push for Brexit in order to trigger another Sceccession referendum.
I meant scotland isn't voting leave.
Ah ok. I can still see a few people actually doing it though. I'm not saying there will be any mass tactical voting etc. What I am saying is I can see it being very close, so every vote counts.
The whole point of that argument requires that Scotland vote Remain while England votes Exit. It's to highlight the difference in attitudes between the two countries.
Ok the leave campaign is something John Cleese and Armando Iannucci dreamt up together isn't it? Putting aside the crypto-racism from the likes of Farage and the occasional shot of some weird imperialist nostalgia from Gove, the Dad's Army style arrows coming from the Balkans and Turkey in their ad must be some form of clever satire.
I'm fairly certain that the percentage of remain votes in Scotland will be higher than England or Wales.
There's also a possibility that in the event of a very close split vote in England, it will be Scottish votes that decide the outcome. I'm sure that would go down well with Nigel and chums.
I've not decided which way I'm voting yet, and this is the first televised debate on the referendum I've seen.
What I will say is I don't know how the Remain campaign have the bare faced cheek and gall to claim they're running a positive campaign. Andrea Eagle in particular has been an absolute disgrace. Spent the entire time making cheap jabs at Boris, waving her pointing figure about and shouting. Absolute horror show this.
What I will say is I don't know how the Remain campaign have the bare faced cheek and gall to claim they're running a positive campaign. Andrea Eagle in particular has been an absolute disgrace. Spent the entire time making cheap jabs at Boris, waving her pointing figure about and shouting. Absolute horror show this.
I don't think there has been evidence of a push for tactical voting but the SNP haven't run the most prominent campaign, England based media has dominated. And similarly Brexit have hardly got a name to put on a platform in Scotland. There are relying on noted former-SNP-leader-turned-troll Jim Sillars and some no-name Lords.
It's a wall of text - but certainly worth a read. Sums up the situation very well for me at least.
Owen Jones in today's Guardian -
Our country is simmering with anger and frustration. There is no shortage of social grievances that, long unaddressed by politicians, are a source of considerable bitterness. But whether it is a lack of affordable housing and secure jobs, stagnating living standards or underfunded public services, all these grievances have increasingly been seen through the prism of immigration. And that is what the passions generated by this referendum are really all about.
Consider my hometown of Stockport. Here is a post-industrial town with many problems but few immigrants. According to the last census, just over one in 20 of the towns inhabitants were born outside Britain or Ireland. The biggest single group of foreign-born Stopfordians are Pakistanis, and they represent less than 1% of the population. People are not flocking to my beloved hometown: in fact, its population is slightly falling. And yet in the last general election immigration was enough of a concern to secure Ukip third place in Stockport. In the impending referendum, a substantial proportion of Stopfordians will vote to leave the European Union above all, because of immigration.
The story is repeated elsewhere. Clacton is the only British constituency to have returned a Ukip MP, and yet the proportion of immigrants living there is far below the national average. London, on the other hand, is a city of immigrants: nearly four in 10 of inner Londons inhabitants are foreign-born and white British people are now a minority there. In London Ukip is a fringe party and polling suggests the capital will decisively vote remain. London is awash with social problems: a housing crisis, increasing levels of low pay and insecure employment. But these problems are not overwhelmingly seen through the prism of immigration unlike my hometown, where the number of immigrants is low.
Take some of Stockports problems. Thousands of families are trapped on social housing waiting lists. Nearly a quarter of the towns workers are paid less than the living wage, and low pay has been increasing. In the ward I grew up in, nearly one in three children live in poverty and public services are under pressure. However, while the reasons include a failure to build council housing, the lack of an industrial strategy to promote skilled secure jobs, economic policies that have slashed living standards and cut services, these culprits are not readily identified. Immigration has become a convenient framework to understand ever growing social and economic insecurities. And many of Stockports citizens believe that the best opportunity to overcome problems that make their lives harder is to vote to leave.
In the run-up to last years general election I met a woman in Southampton whose benefits had been sanctioned. She had been driven to food banks. But she did not blame the governments policies on social security, she blamed immigrants, because she believed they were taking jobs, leaving her with insufficient job interviews to satisfy the jobcentre. This is not to berate her, or my fellow Stopfordians. This is the fault of people like me.
We have failed to present a compelling story about the causes of the social problems that scar British society. We have argued that these are the consequences of a nation rigged in favour of a tiny elite; a society that prioritises market forces over human needs and aspirations. But if people even heard us, they were not convinced. And in that vacuum immigration has become a catch-all explanation for grievance after grievance. Whatever the result in two weeks, this referendum is only cementing the role of immigration as the root of injustice.
The leave campaign knows all this as it continues to conjure up demons that will be difficult to lay to rest. It is offering dishonesty, snake oil and outright deception. Those expecting that a British exit from the EU will diminish the insecurities they face have an unpleasant surprise in store. Most immigrants come from outside the EU. The leave campaign argues that non-EU immigrants are discriminated against if the leavers are not being disingenuous, this means that the number of non-EU immigrants would increase after Brexit. In fact we are forced to employ immigrants because of government policies: last year Britain was recruiting one in four nurses abroad after slashing nurse training places.
One of the main concerns about immigration is a fear of wages being undercut. But agency workers are only guaranteed the same rights as full-time workers because of our membership of the European Union and its agency workers directive. The Conservative party resisted the implementation of this directive, and a future rightwing Tory government led by Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, Fuckwitted Pob lookalike Michael Gove and Iain Duncan Smith would cast it on to the bonfire, along with other workers rights so allowing the wholesale undercutting of wages.
The leave campaign even cynically toys with the rhetoric of leftwing populism. Its opponents are bashed for being the stooges of Goldman Sachs: the very people who zealously oppose limits to bank bonuses, and champion deregulation and lower taxes for the City of London.
If Britain leaves the EU, the people I grew up with will not see social housing waiting lists diminish, because the Conservative government will not build the council housing we need. They will not see secure jobs materialise, because there will be no industrial strategy to create them. They will not enjoy a surge in living standards, because the cuts policy will only be accelerated. A vote for leave has become a vote to slash immigration to solve Britains multiple problems. Searing disappointment awaits.
Jeremy Corbyn is berated for not speaking loudly enough for remain, and for not making common cause with the prime minister. But emulating Scotlands Better Together campaign where Labour linked arms with the Tories in a campaign of fear could have calamitous results, with Eurosceptic Labour voters being lost to Ukip. Still, whatever the result, Labour has much to fear, for years of mounting social and economic insecurities have been funnelled into opposition to immigration. Ukip hungrily eyes Labours support base for tasty morsels. Corbyns party will have to address the bitterness shaped by this referendum and do it fast.
Owen Jones in today's Guardian -
Our country is simmering with anger and frustration. There is no shortage of social grievances that, long unaddressed by politicians, are a source of considerable bitterness. But whether it is a lack of affordable housing and secure jobs, stagnating living standards or underfunded public services, all these grievances have increasingly been seen through the prism of immigration. And that is what the passions generated by this referendum are really all about.
Consider my hometown of Stockport. Here is a post-industrial town with many problems but few immigrants. According to the last census, just over one in 20 of the towns inhabitants were born outside Britain or Ireland. The biggest single group of foreign-born Stopfordians are Pakistanis, and they represent less than 1% of the population. People are not flocking to my beloved hometown: in fact, its population is slightly falling. And yet in the last general election immigration was enough of a concern to secure Ukip third place in Stockport. In the impending referendum, a substantial proportion of Stopfordians will vote to leave the European Union above all, because of immigration.
The story is repeated elsewhere. Clacton is the only British constituency to have returned a Ukip MP, and yet the proportion of immigrants living there is far below the national average. London, on the other hand, is a city of immigrants: nearly four in 10 of inner Londons inhabitants are foreign-born and white British people are now a minority there. In London Ukip is a fringe party and polling suggests the capital will decisively vote remain. London is awash with social problems: a housing crisis, increasing levels of low pay and insecure employment. But these problems are not overwhelmingly seen through the prism of immigration unlike my hometown, where the number of immigrants is low.
Take some of Stockports problems. Thousands of families are trapped on social housing waiting lists. Nearly a quarter of the towns workers are paid less than the living wage, and low pay has been increasing. In the ward I grew up in, nearly one in three children live in poverty and public services are under pressure. However, while the reasons include a failure to build council housing, the lack of an industrial strategy to promote skilled secure jobs, economic policies that have slashed living standards and cut services, these culprits are not readily identified. Immigration has become a convenient framework to understand ever growing social and economic insecurities. And many of Stockports citizens believe that the best opportunity to overcome problems that make their lives harder is to vote to leave.
In the run-up to last years general election I met a woman in Southampton whose benefits had been sanctioned. She had been driven to food banks. But she did not blame the governments policies on social security, she blamed immigrants, because she believed they were taking jobs, leaving her with insufficient job interviews to satisfy the jobcentre. This is not to berate her, or my fellow Stopfordians. This is the fault of people like me.
We have failed to present a compelling story about the causes of the social problems that scar British society. We have argued that these are the consequences of a nation rigged in favour of a tiny elite; a society that prioritises market forces over human needs and aspirations. But if people even heard us, they were not convinced. And in that vacuum immigration has become a catch-all explanation for grievance after grievance. Whatever the result in two weeks, this referendum is only cementing the role of immigration as the root of injustice.
The leave campaign knows all this as it continues to conjure up demons that will be difficult to lay to rest. It is offering dishonesty, snake oil and outright deception. Those expecting that a British exit from the EU will diminish the insecurities they face have an unpleasant surprise in store. Most immigrants come from outside the EU. The leave campaign argues that non-EU immigrants are discriminated against if the leavers are not being disingenuous, this means that the number of non-EU immigrants would increase after Brexit. In fact we are forced to employ immigrants because of government policies: last year Britain was recruiting one in four nurses abroad after slashing nurse training places.
One of the main concerns about immigration is a fear of wages being undercut. But agency workers are only guaranteed the same rights as full-time workers because of our membership of the European Union and its agency workers directive. The Conservative party resisted the implementation of this directive, and a future rightwing Tory government led by Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, Fuckwitted Pob lookalike Michael Gove and Iain Duncan Smith would cast it on to the bonfire, along with other workers rights so allowing the wholesale undercutting of wages.
The leave campaign even cynically toys with the rhetoric of leftwing populism. Its opponents are bashed for being the stooges of Goldman Sachs: the very people who zealously oppose limits to bank bonuses, and champion deregulation and lower taxes for the City of London.
If Britain leaves the EU, the people I grew up with will not see social housing waiting lists diminish, because the Conservative government will not build the council housing we need. They will not see secure jobs materialise, because there will be no industrial strategy to create them. They will not enjoy a surge in living standards, because the cuts policy will only be accelerated. A vote for leave has become a vote to slash immigration to solve Britains multiple problems. Searing disappointment awaits.
Jeremy Corbyn is berated for not speaking loudly enough for remain, and for not making common cause with the prime minister. But emulating Scotlands Better Together campaign where Labour linked arms with the Tories in a campaign of fear could have calamitous results, with Eurosceptic Labour voters being lost to Ukip. Still, whatever the result, Labour has much to fear, for years of mounting social and economic insecurities have been funnelled into opposition to immigration. Ukip hungrily eyes Labours support base for tasty morsels. Corbyns party will have to address the bitterness shaped by this referendum and do it fast.
IdreamofHIME
Member
Boris: "you'd rather be ruled by Brussels than London".
Fuck this guy and his colonial inbred thinking. Nobody wants to be "ruled" by anyone. Cunt.
Fuck this guy and his colonial inbred thinking. Nobody wants to be "ruled" by anyone. Cunt.
Honestly thought Chris Morris decided to step back into TV programming.
What a bizarre political broadcast.
Psychotext
Member
That whole "ruled by London" thing doesn't sit well with most of the country already.
SporeCrawler
Member
I have a question. Many people are assuming that UK will get a deal with the EU that will be somewhat similar to what Swiss or Norway got. What if the EU says that they want to make an example to leavers? What if EU treats UK with economic sanctions similar to russia or iran?
I find it funny that many people assume that EU is a vicious monster when UK stays in but will become a friendly neighbour if they leave. Wouldnt it be quite the opposite (in particular since EU doesnt want more leavers?)?
I find it funny that many people assume that EU is a vicious monster when UK stays in but will become a friendly neighbour if they leave. Wouldnt it be quite the opposite (in particular since EU doesnt want more leavers?)?
France already more or less has said this. For two reasons. First, if you can get as good of a deal outside EU as you get if you're in EU, then that's incentive for more to leave and secondly a good deal will make Le Pen president.
A very recent article about this: http://www.politico.eu/article/fran...m-consequences-europe-hollande-david-cameron/
SporeCrawler
Member
I think germany would be on the same boat mainly because frankfurt may profit a lot as the new financial centre of europe (ECB is already there).
I mean just make the process of shifting capital from accounts in UK to EU under some arbital tax, contingent or license procedure and many banks will just leave UK.
ecosse_011172
Junior Member
Yup.
I'm not enamoured with either of the camps approaches but Jesus wept, the Remain camp on ITV tonight was downright disgraceful.
At least in the final wrap up, the two women in the Leave vote at least tried to summarise with a 'This is why you should...' conclusion - all three in the Remain camp spent their individual wrap ups full on bitching at the Leave representatives, almost on a personal level.
I've been on the fence for weeks and am edging towards Remain from my own background reading but these cretins running the campaign...the more they perform like that, I swear to god the more they will drive hanging voters to Vote Leave
Seriously?
I think they're basically trying to evoke the intro to Dad's Army.This makes even less sense than I thought it did.
Someone Is Putting Up "Halt Ze German Advance" Anti-EU Billboards - BuzzFeed News
Nooo, they're on to us, *climbs out of the Panzer*
Germany is advancing while being in the EU, and we want to stop them by running away?
If this is trying to appeal to historical patriotism, it falls rather flat.
BRB, off to claim to be the new Derren Brown.
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