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[Kathian]

The issue is though immigrants pay in the long term not the short term so it can be difficult to build the required infrastructure when there is a spike in immigration.

I find it bizarre the left have gotten in a position where anything but unchecked immigration is racist but further bizarrely they support keeping in place most of the current structures built to control migration.

Immigrants actually have a wide choice of places to go in the world and some means of filtering this would be good and help with spending commitments. Especially for an indebted government.

Also it's just a fact that the current system is currently causing negative effects for non-EU migrants. The Leaves immigration arguments make sense until they start spouting the immigration control andsingle market nonsense.

 

[Ashes]

Problem for Leave is if they win now. Which is why his MP jumped ship. Remain have set out consequences not opportunities. Leave have set out opportunities.

We know both sides are talking bollocks. We also know Leave are the ones making promises.

Leave will do what Tories have been doing the last 6 years, blame it on the previous gang.

Talking of which, another benefit to leaving the EU, is overtime fees for MPS for doing their job. There's going to be a lot of paperwork involved with bills that are of EU origin, but pretty much political dynamite - in that they need to be done both quickly but correctly implemented into UK Law. You really don't want to set UK legal law back two decades.

 

[Ashes]

Also it's just a fact that the current system is currently causing negative effects for non-EU migrants.

How so?

 

[uncleniccius]

Lord, the leave campaign threatening to take legal action over the extension of voter registration is hysterical. Built on the promise of 'taking back democracy' they're not OK with more people being able to vote (which makes the referendum more democratic). Crucially, plenty of people who did nothing wrong and applied before the deadline wouldn't have otherwise been able to vote.

Hypocrisy at its finest.

 

[Izuna]

Lord, the leave campaign threatening to take legal action over the extension of voter registration is hysterical. Built on the promise of 'taking back democracy' they're not OK with more people being able to vote (which makes the referendum more democratic). Crucially, plenty of people who did nothing wrong and applied before the deadline wouldn't have otherwise been able to vote.

Hypocrisy at its finest.

What? Is this a real thing?

 

[QuicheFontaine]

How so?

The govt can't restrict EU migration so they strictly control what's left, i.e. non-EU migration.

 

[uncleniccius]

What? Is this a real thing?

Here you go: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ension-of-registration-deadline-a7071221.html

 

[Izuna]

Here you go: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ension-of-registration-deadline-a7071221.html

They deliberately crashed the website, lol.

Why not suggest that they will just make a bunch of fake postal votes with NI numbers that belong to no one?

 

[uncleniccius]

They deliberately crashed the website, lol.

Why not suggest that they will just make a bunch of fake postal votes with NI numbers that belong to no one?

They'll probably wait until after the vote to play that card

 

[Ashes]

The govt can't restrict EU migration so they strictly control what's left, i.e. non-EU migration.

Really? non-eu migration is mostly student visas [around 47%) - That's just free money coming into the country. Why would the government mess with that? Students in China and India getting a large number of these visas might say something about UK perception of students from India and China.

 

[Tak3n]

They'll probably wait until after the vote to play that card

if it is not a clear victory, and lets say remain win by 500,000 then I see an absolute case for court action against the website reopening

as long as the figures stack up of course

 

[Moosichu]

Really? non-eu migration is mostly student visas [around 47%) - That's just free money coming into the country. Why would the government mess with that? Students in China and India getting a large number of these visas might say something about UK perception of students from India and China.

Onr thing that is complete BS, is that many students (like one of my friends from India studying Mathematics at Cambridge), won't be able to get a job in the UK after graduation due to the way immigration is being "clamped down on".

 

[uncleniccius]

if it is not a clear victory, and lets say remain win by 500,000 then I see an absolute case for court action against the website reopening

as long as the figures stack up of course

Really? Would you see a case for Remain in the reverse? Where two hours were missed? (I understand there is a difference in time)

Either way it is ludicrous. I doubt it will be that close though.

 

[Ashes]

Onr thing that is complete BS, is that many students (like one of my friends from India studying Mathematics at Cambridge), won't be able to get a job in the UK after graduation due to the way immigration is being "clamped down on".

Ahh I see. Point taken.

 

[JonathanEx]

I'm seeing lots of anti-young-people-registering-last-minute-snark in the press today (hello Times and HuffPo) and at work someone was saying they had no sympathy for those who tried to register last minute.

But seeing as you know, on the day there was a big TV thing, then it was the 10 oclock news covering it and mentioning that and the deadline, and the site was down at 10:30, well that's last minute in terms of day but can you blame people for not giving a shit throughout the rest of a campaign only slightly more exciting than the AV one?

It's not like it went down at 11:45, at which point it's sort of close enough, but more than an hour, with lots of reasons to explain the demand, well okay responding is really the right thing to do.

AND if people fuck up this time well then it is their fault. Might as well spread it out over two days to make sure it doesn't go down again and get a bit more time for the server staff to panic.


I mean I think people should have registered early but it's not their fault the site couldn't cope

 

[Tak3n]

I like the fact the Cameron touting his ban on migrants claiming benefits.... of course the general public are too thick to realise he only got that for 4 years...after that it gets turned off....but of course he will be long gone to his speech tour as all ex PM's do

 

[uncleniccius]

I'm seeing lots of anti-young-people-registering-last-minute-snark in the press today (hello Times and HuffPo) and at work someone was saying they had no sympathy for those who tried to register last minute.

But seeing as you know, on the day there was a big TV thing, then it was the 10 oclock news covering it and mentioning that and the deadline, and the site was down at 10:30, well that's last minute in terms of day but can you blame people for not giving a shit throughout the rest of a campaign only slightly more exciting than the AV one?

It's not like it went down at 11:45, at which point it's sort of close enough, but more than an hour, with lots of reasons to explain the demand, well okay responding is really the right thing to do.

AND if people fuck up this time well then it is their fault. Might as well spread it out over two days to make sure it doesn't go down again and get a bit more time for the server staff to panic.


I mean I think people should have registered early but it's not their fault the site couldn't cope

Exactly. The 'they should have done it earlier' argument is weird to me. Maybe they should have done, but that is really irrelevant as they should've been able to do it then.

The polling station analogy used by the labour shadow voting minister(?) was a fair one.

 

[Tak3n]

Really? Would you see a case for Remain in the reverse? Where two hours were missed? (I understand there is a difference in time)

Either way it is ludicrous. I doubt it will be that close though.

Whichever way, if it is close the re-opening will end up in court

TBH even though I am a 'out'voter I wish the damn thing had never been called, it is plain to see it is going to be a 5% in it vote so the Tories are about to split the country right down the middle...

Never a good thing to do (just take a look at Scotland) all this will do is make UKIP even more popular (presuming remain wins) and there will be resentment and poison for a decade

 

[tomtom94]

I mean, it's not like the government specifically implemented changes designed to make it harder for young people to vote...

 

[Moobabe]

I'm seeing lots of anti-young-people-registering-last-minute-snark in the press today (hello Times and HuffPo) and at work someone was saying they had no sympathy for those who tried to register last minute.

But seeing as you know, on the day there was a big TV thing, then it was the 10 oclock news covering it and mentioning that and the deadline, and the site was down at 10:30, well that's last minute in terms of day but can you blame people for not giving a shit throughout the rest of a campaign only slightly more exciting than the AV one?

It's not like it went down at 11:45, at which point it's sort of close enough, but more than an hour, with lots of reasons to explain the demand, well okay responding is really the right thing to do.

AND if people fuck up this time well then it is their fault. Might as well spread it out over two days to make sure it doesn't go down again and get a bit more time for the server staff to panic.


I mean I think people should have registered early but it's not their fault the site couldn't cope

The Telegraph is laying into young people as well, which is fine, since a website like Mashable has more MUU than the Telegraph has combined in print and online.

I hope remain wins so I can see the salty tears of right wing editors crusting on the front pages.

 

[JonathanEx]

Also the last minute registrations from the general election, over the last few days I believe only 1/3rd of those were actually new registrations - many were people just not sure if they were and being certain.

So it's not just people who have been lazy - it's people who want to be certain too.

 

[uncleniccius]

Whichever way, if it is close the re-opening will end up in court

TBH even though I am a 'out'voter I wish the damn thing had never been called, it is plain to see it is going to be a 5% in it vote so the Tories are about to split the country right down the middle...

Never a good thing to do (just take a look at Scotland) all this will do is make UKIP even more popular (presuming remain wins) and there will be resentment and poison for a decade

Fair enough. In reality the impact won't be that big though - even if 500,000 sign up most will be doing it again. Before the general last year something like 5 million signed up but the register only grew by a million (these figures may be off but there was a huge discrepancy).

edit: Beaten lol

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Really? non-eu migration is mostly student visas [around 47%) - That's just free money coming into the country. Why would the government mess with that? Students in China and India getting a large number of these visas might say something about UK perception of students from India and China.

No, you're right there. The government is happy to give out student visas like candy. As you say, it's free money. The UK has a large "education industry", where our redbrick unis are seen as desirable by overseas students. The tuition fees they pay are massive, and the best part? They have to go back afterwards. Student visas are a-ok!

It's basically every other non-EU visa that is now far more onerous than it was 10-15 years ago. It seems like the govt have identified a fee that they can hike and hike and nobody gives a damn. The application fees are now in the thousands of pounds - completely out of line with the administrative cost. It just serves the dual purpose of raking in money from foreigners and pricing out poor people. Don't even get me started on the NHS surcharge...

Edit:

Also the last minute registrations from the general election, over the last few days I believe only 1/3rd of those were actually new registrations - many were people just not sure if they were and being certain.

So it's not just people who have been lazy - it's people who want to be certain too.

It's the lazy, poorly organised and forgetful! Wonder which way they'll vote?

 

[Izuna]

I mean, it's not like the government specifically implemented changes designed to make it harder for young people to vote...

I wish Corbyn would do the one thing he is good for and get young people to vote. Do a skit on YouTube or something.

 

[Frankfurter]

Oh, don't try the ol' "out of context". He stated national leaders should spend less time listening to their own electorate and spend more time "being Europeans". It was enough for a rebuke from Tusk, who clearly didn't have any worries about taking Juncker's remarks out of context.

Juncker is man who, like most of his ilk, clearly has little regard for the opinions of the public regarding the EU project.

I'm not "trying" anything, the quote IS entirely out of context.

The only thing he said, concerning full time europeans was: “We have full time Europeans when it comes to taking, and we have part-time Europeans when it comes to giving,”

Which is a perfectly valid statement.

In terms of public opinion, you might wanna reread the quote, too:

“Too many politicians are listening exclusively to their national opinion. And if you are listening to your national opinion you are not developing what should be a common European sense and a feeling of the need to put together efforts. We have too many part-time Europeans.”

Please note that he doesn't say "Don't listen to your national electorate", but rather 'Don't forget the bigger picture.'

And again, I don't see what's wrong with that statement.

Tusks criticism doesn't make any sense to begin with. Juncker didn't say anything about the "United States of Europe" in these quotes...

 

[Tak3n]

I wish Corbyn would do the one thing he is good for and get young people to vote. Do a skit on YouTube or something.

na, he is actually anti-EU. this is all very awkward for him as the Labour party is pro-EU so he is a bit conflicted, that was why his speech about workers right etc was about the best he could say

 

[JonathanEx]

It's the lazy, poorly organised and forgetful! Wonder which way they'll vote?

It's fine they won't get to the polling station in time

I wish Corbyn would do the one thing he is good for and get young people to vote. Do a skit on YouTube or something.

He's gonna do a big interview on Sky, his only appearance of any of the major TV events. So that'll be a disaster for him.

Oh he is doing The Last Leg tomorrow

 

[Milton]

It's a shame the Jeremy Corbyn talks too much sense for the media to take notice of him. As he said in this same speech, the coalition government scrapped the fund that helped communities deal with influxes of migrants. If the Leave voters directed their understandable anger about immigration at the government (where it belongs) and voted for an alternative instead of for a protest party who have no agenda other than to stay in elected office as long as they possibly can, we'd be on the way to easing the problem by now.

We are talking about the guy who said that nuclear submarines could patrol without nuclear weapons and instead could be used as a sort of taxi service for our troops. There's a reason why hardly anyone takes him seriously, even on the odd occasion when he does talk sense.

 

[Izuna]

na, he is actually anti-EU. this is all very awkward for him as the Labour party is pro-EU so he is a bit conflicted, that was why his speech about workers right etc was about the best he could say

Or maybe he has the sense to understand that the poor would be worse off.

I speculate that we will have higher prices for fruit (and other produce we are used to), which is a big concern for me.

 

[Milton]

Can somebody explain why GB tried to block Jean Claude Juncker as Commission President when he was elected by the european people and now GB is accusing the EU of being too undemocratic?

Which election was it when Juncker's name was on a ballot paper that members of the public - the European people - could vote on? I must have missed that one.

 

[Number45]

I don't see how they could do anything other than hypothesise about the percentages of leave vs remain of the voters that registered late, surely that will not be something they can use to contest a tight result?

 

[Maledict]

Which election was it when Juncker's name was on a ballot paper that members of the public - the European people - could vote on? I must have missed that one.

It was just after the election where I voted for David Cameron to be prime minister on my ballot paper in central London.

 

[Milton]

I'm not "trying" anything, the quote IS entirely out of context.

The only thing he said, concerning full time europeans was: “We have full time Europeans when it comes to taking, and we have part-time Europeans when it comes to giving,”

Which is a perfectly valid statement.

In terms of public opinion, you might wanna reread the quote, too:

“Too many politicians are listening exclusively to their national opinion. And if you are listening to your national opinion you are not developing what should be a common European sense and a feeling of the need to put together efforts. We have too many part-time Europeans.”

Please note that he doesn't say "Don't listen to your national electorate", but rather 'Don't forget the bigger picture.'

And again, I don't see what's wrong with that statement.

Tusks criticism doesn't make any sense to begin with. Juncker didn't say anything about the "United States of Europe" in these quotes...

What he said was perfectly clear. It's there in black and white. The reason Tusk slapped him down is because Tusk - unlike you - understood how Juncker's words merely reinforce negative views of the EU institution and its attitudes towards ordinary voters.

 

[Frankfurter]

What he said was perfectly clear. It's there in black and white. The reason Tusk slapped him down is because Tusk - unlike you - understood how Juncker's words merely reinforce negative views of the EU institution and its attitudes towards ordinary voters.

So you don't care what he actually said, fine. Let's leave it at that. The EU is evil.

 

[Milton]

It was just after the election where I voted for David Cameron to be prime minister on my ballot paper in central London.

Oh dear, I knew someone would come out with that. Cameron was elected by 35000 members of the public in his local constituency, and at the last general election members of the public all over the country had the chance to vote for the party of which he is leader.

Juncker did not face any such test of the public when he was appointed as an EU president.

 

[Milton]

So you don't care what he actually said, fine. Let's leave it at that. The EU is evil.

If you are continually going to deliberately misrepresent what people are saying then there is indeed no point in discussing anything with you.

 

[BossDarkseid]

Yep. Only reason I am voting to remain. Both sides have been all about fear and doooom! But at least with remain I know what being in the EU is like.

Sorta this. Im voting remain partly because fuck the doom and gloom...but i also thought i should take stock a little bit on how it would affect me and my friends/people I care about. After questions and research i am voting to remain. I wouldn't mind voting leave if things were different, but its not like either side have particularly good campaigners or orators.

Well, that and the attitude of Farage when talking about racism the other night was a bit sad

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Oh dear, I knew someone would come out with that. Cameron was elected by 35000 members of the public in his local constituency, and at the last general election members of the public all over the country had the chance to vote for the party of which he is leader.

Juncker did not face any such test of the public when he was appointed as an EU president.

He was elected by his constituents to be their local MP. He wasn't elected Prime Minister; rather, he became Prime Minister because he could command the confidence of the House of Commons (tacitly, they voted for him rather than anyone else), which is elected by us. This is not especially different from Juncker, who was nominated by a majority of national governments (who we elect) and then can command the confidence of the European Parliament (who we elect).

In other words:

UK voting public votes for House of Commons provides confidence for Prime Minister
European voting public votes for national governments nominates European President
European voting public votes for European Parliament provides confidence for European President

So Juncker did face a test of the public - two in fact, as he had to gain the support of a majority of national governments (elected by the public) and the support of the European Parliament (elected by the public).

Now, I agree as much as anyone that the nomination of the European President shouldn't be dependent on national governments, but instead solely dependent on the European Parliament, so that there is only one chain of accountability and not two. But it's not the EU stopping that... it's national governments, who dislike the idea of the EU becoming more responsive to national populations directly instead of largely being dictated indirectly through national governments themselves.

 

[Ashes]

Which election was it when Juncker's name was on a ballot paper that members of the public - the European people - could vote on? I must have missed that one.

Same paper we have to vote for life peerage in the house of lords.

 

[Kathian]

How so?

Non EU migrant numbers are falling as the Home Office is attempting to reduce immigration through that door.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

So you don't care what he actually said, fine. Let's leave it at that. The EU is evil.

I don't think the EU is evil, but the people working in its institutions (apart from the Eurosceptic MPs we elect abviously) appear to have the common goal of a European superstate. It's time to have a chat about that because a lot of people across Europe, not just in the UK, don't feel like they've been consulted as to whether they're on board with that. This referendum is just a part of that conversation.

 

[Maledict]

Oh dear, I knew someone would come out with that. Cameron was elected by 35000 members of the public in his local constituency, and at the last general election members of the public all over the country had the chance to vote for the party of which he is leader.

Juncker did not face any such test of the public when he was appointed as an EU president.

Then you fail to understand how our democracy works. We elect politicians to make those decisions for us. I did not vote for Alan Sugar to be the governments business tzar, nor did I vote for any of the House of Lords appointments to sit in cabinet.

We don't get to vote on every appointment or post, we elect people to make those decisions. Given that both the EU parliament and our elected heads of government were involved in selecting Juncker, we've actually had two bites of the cherry when it comes to democracy...

 

[Frankfurter]

I don't think the EU is evil, but the people working in its institutions (apart from the Eurosceptic MPs we elect abviously) appear to have the common goal of a European superstate. It's time to have a chat about that because a lot of people across Europe, not just in the UK, don't feel like they've been consulted as to whether they're on board with that. This referendum is just a part of that conversation.

This might well be the goal that people have in mind. But even if it is, reality shows us that no country can be forced into this. The UK is absent from a lot of the big EU integration projects (see Euro, see parts of the Schengen treaty), yet it's nevertheless a EU member and it's certainly not being bullied out of the EU. "Two-speed Europe" is already pretty much a reality, so I don't see much of an issue overall. Those that don't want the whole "United States of Europe" part, will have the ability to stay out of certain crucial integration projects anyway.

 

[Milton]

Whichever way, if it is close the re-opening will end up in court

TBH even though I am a 'out'voter I wish the damn thing had never been called, it is plain to see it is going to be a 5% in it vote so the Tories are about to split the country right down the middle...

Never a good thing to do (just take a look at Scotland) all this will do is make UKIP even more popular (presuming remain wins) and there will be resentment and poison for a decade

The only reason it ever happened is because Cameron needed to quell his own eurosceptics and prevent any further rise in UKIP's popularity. He was always in favour of Britain remaining in the EU. This is a referendum he was forced into.

 

[Jackpot]

FYI, you are basically exactly the person I'm talking about. Absolutely get fucked.

What's wrong with you?

 

[Milton]

Then you fail to understand how our democracy works. We elect politicians to make those decisions for us. I did not vote for Alan Sugar to be the governments business tzar, nor did I vote for any of the House of Lords appointments to sit in cabinet.

We don't get to vote on every appointment or post, we elect people to make those decisions. Given that both the EU parliament and our elected heads of government were involved in selecting Juncker, we've actually had two bites of the cherry when it comes to democracy...

You are right that we elect politicians to make certain decisions for us. But the EU presidencies are powerful positions, Juncker's being the most powerful of the three. In my view it is not right that such powerful politicians never have to face a public vote. This is one reason why so many are turned off the EU.

 

[Psychotext]

Probably a stupid question... but how do we plan on reducing EU migration if we vote out of the EU? Everything I've seen on the subject seems to indicate that if we wanted to trade with the Eurozone afterwards (we do) then it's almost certain that we'd have to accept freedom of movement, like Switzerland did.

Or is the argument that we'll somehow be able to come up with a deal that doesn't have it? (I doubt this, especially given how much we'll have pissed off the EU powers that be)

 

[JonathanEx]

Probably a stupid question... but how do we plan on reducing EU migration if we vote out of the EU? Everything I've seen on the subject seems to indicate that if we wanted to trade with the Eurozone afterwards (we do) then it's almost certain that we'd have to accept freedom of movement, like Switzerland did.

Or is the argument that we'll somehow be able to come up with a deal that doesn't have it? (I doubt this, especially given how much we'll have pissed off the EU powers that be)

I think Farage's line during the debate was no no no, let me finish, doesn't have to be the case we are Great Britain and we'll be able to or something like that. And they won't do an overly harsh deal to us to spite others because we're the biggest amazing country and they won't cut off their nose to spite their face and lose out on trading with us.

 

[anonymous_abc]

Probably a stupid question... but how do we plan on reducing EU migration if we vote out of the EU? Everything I've seen on the subject seems to indicate that if we wanted to trade with the Eurozone afterwards (we do) then it's almost certain that we'd have to accept freedom of movement, like Switzerland did.

Or is the argument that we'll somehow be able to come up with a deal that doesn't have it? (I doubt this, especially given how much we'll have pissed off the EU powers that be)

Because of the British Empire, Brussels will have no choice but to bow to all of the UK's demands...


That's what makes it all so silly the Norwegian or Swiss model is hardly going to stop what some people feel is wrong in the status quo...

no no no, let me finish.

nice!

Wasn't there supposed to be a dead ringers during Brexit campaigning?

 

[phisheep]

Probably a stupid question... but how do we plan on reducing EU migration if we vote out of the EU? Everything I've seen on the subject seems to indicate that if we wanted to trade with the Eurozone afterwards (we do) then it's almost certain that we'd have to accept freedom of movement, like Switzerland did.

Or is the argument that we'll somehow be able to come up with a deal that doesn't have it? (I doubt this, especially given how much we'll have pissed off the EU powers that be)

This is (partly) where the Leave campaign is being disingenuous.

Partly it suggests (through the claimed savings) that we would be wholly outside the EU and any associated deals and so able to control our own immigration and so on. Partly it suggests (through the claimed trading advantages) that we would still be able to trade freely with the EU, which comes with costs and constraints on what we can control.

If Leave came up with a coherent proposal for what would happen then I might consider it, but as it stands they don't have one.