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Brexit |OT| UK Referendum on EU Membership - 23 June 2016
- Thread starter QuicheFontaine
- Start date
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No it's just kippers pile onto social media like mental after any debate. It's their echo chamber.
Psychotext
Member
I like him, but he's politically toxic.
Love the addition of Syria and Iraq. They may as well have just put "Brown muslims incoming"
Psychotext
Member
Question Time. She's wrong on the rebate.... she's actually talking about extra money the UK gets back in grants. lol
Psychotext
Member
Izzard actually made a reasonable point... where does it end? People don't want an EU parliament ignoring their desires, but do the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish want London ignoring theirs?
Or the English parliament being influenced by Scottish/Welsh/NI MPs.
What goes around comes around.
Wow.
This is like a master class of propaganda.
What the leaflet states is sort of true in a very disingenuous way, but everything else is just fucked up.
It really isn't even true. Turkey will not be joining the EU. The French have cock blocked the idea for years as have Greece. All it takes is one veto and Turkey is not in good with most if not all of the eu governments.
D
Deleted member 13876
Unconfirmed Member
Do they call them leavelets?
War Peaceman
You're a big guy.
Phrasing!
Even though I'm adamantly remain, he was really awful here in Nottingham. Painful.
TheLegendOfMart
Banned
I am worried because I am still on the fence and it's less than two weeks till the vote.
I've been trying to watch the referendum debates on TV but it is disgusting how a group of adults bicker with each other like children and no one can give a fucking straight answer. Julie Etchingham gets on my tits as well she is a terrible moderator.
I hear reasoned arguments for both sides but I am having trouble making my mind up.
I don't want to be out of the EU but I know staying will mean the UK will mostly be ignored as usual.
I know I am lazy for not reading the thread but is there any website or video I can watch that is as unbiased as it can be without half truths or misinformation?
I've been trying to watch the referendum debates on TV but it is disgusting how a group of adults bicker with each other like children and no one can give a fucking straight answer. Julie Etchingham gets on my tits as well she is a terrible moderator.
I hear reasoned arguments for both sides but I am having trouble making my mind up.
I don't want to be out of the EU but I know staying will mean the UK will mostly be ignored as usual.
I know I am lazy for not reading the thread but is there any website or video I can watch that is as unbiased as it can be without half truths or misinformation?
anonymous_abc
Member
This argument continues to bother me greatly.
It is absolutely not true.
And if the UK is sidelined in the EU they have no one to blame but themselves.
The Tories leaving the EPP (the largest group in the EP) to join other eurosceptics from eastern Europe does not particularly increase your influence.
Electing dozens of UKIPers who do nothing but complain and vote down everything (even the good stuff by their own standards) does not particularly help gaining influence in the European Parliament.
The UK has more opt outs than anyone else and yet they never stop complaining and bickering. That is surely going to get you lots of love from the other 27 member states.
etc etc etc...
There is no good economic reason to leave the EU, there is no good protect our borders reason to leave the EU, there is no good Make the Empire great again reason to leave the EU it's all a bloody sham.
That said I am fed up. Please Brexit, live with the harsh punishment that will rain down on you in any new negotiations and let the rest of the EU get on with the political integration that is desperately needed.
phisheep
NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
On the bolded point, really the UK is not ignored any more than anybody else is. There are 28 member states, so every single one sometimes gets the feeling it is one versus 27. The Leave campaign makes much of the fact(?) that the UK has been overturned 56(?) times in the ECJ, but completely forgets to mention that we've been on the winning side several thousand times. There's no evidence that we are being ignored.
As for reading matter, see my post further up the thread.
Yeah, about that influence stuff. UK is one of the most influential actors in the EU, if not the most influential.
Note, this is a blog post. It's on the London School of Economics and Political Science website, but it's not an official view of LSE nor is it peer reviewed study. However it is based on a real study.
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2...s-the-uk-at-the-top-table-in-eu-negotiations/
You can read the first and second parts of that series here:
1) http://www.theguardian.com/politics/datablog/2015/oct/19/simon-hix-is-the-uk-marginalised-in-the-eu
2) https://www.theguardian.com/world/datablog/2015/nov/02/is-uk-winner-or-loser-european-council
Note, this is a blog post. It's on the London School of Economics and Political Science website, but it's not an official view of LSE nor is it peer reviewed study. However it is based on a real study.
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2...s-the-uk-at-the-top-table-in-eu-negotiations/
To start with, Figure 1 shows the two sides of the connections: (1) how many other governments each government said that they worked with (were connected to) on average in each year; and (2) how many other governments mentioned a particular government (were connected from). Put together, these two measures give an indication of how much influence an EU member state’s officials have in EU negotiations.
[...]
The centrality of the UK, along with the other large member states, is clearly revealed in the number of officials from other EU governments who mentioned the UK (in the figure on the right). Measured this way round, the UK’s officials are the most well connected of all the governments. In fact, the officials of only 6 other governments (out of 26 others) did not mention the UK as the main government they co-operated with in their working group in either 2006, 2009 or 2012: Greece, Italy, Luxembourg, Portugal, Cyprus, and Romania.
You can read the first and second parts of that series here:
1) http://www.theguardian.com/politics/datablog/2015/oct/19/simon-hix-is-the-uk-marginalised-in-the-eu
2) https://www.theguardian.com/world/datablog/2015/nov/02/is-uk-winner-or-loser-european-council
QuicheFontaine
Member
I love "good riddance" Europeans. We're on the same side! <3
it will be interesting to see what effect the Euros has on young people suddenly not giving a shit because the football is on....
and also the repercussion of a vote if there is a terrorist attack, and would either side dare to use it for traction
Leave would be 'see this is why we need to control our borders'
Remain would be 'see this is why we should remain, dont let the terrorists win'
I still think it is very unlikely leave wins, I personally feel the leave will need to have a 6 or 7 point lead to compensate for the 'better the devil you know' votes on the day
and also the repercussion of a vote if there is a terrorist attack, and would either side dare to use it for traction
Leave would be 'see this is why we need to control our borders'
Remain would be 'see this is why we should remain, dont let the terrorists win'
I still think it is very unlikely leave wins, I personally feel the leave will need to have a 6 or 7 point lead to compensate for the 'better the devil you know' votes on the day
anonymous_abc
Member
Oh please, England will be out by then. Might affect the Welsh turnout.
I mean its all about Britain's sovereignty, right?
Forget the possibility that if a Brexit vote succeeds, the UK will once again come into question, with Ireland and Scotland specifically. Breakup of the union is more likely in Brexit than less.
Nah though, the pesky immigrants.
Forget the possibility that if a Brexit vote succeeds, the UK will once again come into question, with Ireland and Scotland specifically. Breakup of the union is more likely in Brexit than less.
Nah though, the pesky immigrants.
QuicheFontaine
Member
For real, I would be interested in exploring the idea of a federal UK. Not sold on a federal Europe though.
Portugeezer
Member
The NHS video last night made me cringe.
Frankly I think you non-Sussex types should just stop messing in our affairs. And I'm not too hot on East Sussex either...
Did you know Sussex sends £1,000m a minute to the UK?
milanbaros
Member?
I'd be happy for London to be a city state. We'd be extremely rich and get to laugh at all the plebs outside our borders. Well, more than we do now.
ClosingADoor
Member
The UK has strict border control already. So if people are afraid of terrorists traveling in, nothing will change anyway when leaving the EU.
Audioboxer
Member
At least the English are getting to see some of the smearing and scare tactics used in a referendum first hand now. It's not pleasant.
On a more serious note, at one point I thought remain would run away with this, not so sure now. At least down south.
On a more serious note, at one point I thought remain would run away with this, not so sure now. At least down south.
anonymous_abc
Member
The European one is just a stepping stone to a global one.
QuicheFontaine
Member
Presumably the global one is merely a stepping stone to the galactic senate?
anonymous_abc
Member
Stereogatari
Banned
Think of the hilarity of me receiving that leaflet. My surname has TURK in it hahaha. So I had a leaflet full of Turcophobia addressed to a Turkish person with a very obviously Turkish name.
Having said that I'm voting Leave. Simply for sovreignity.
ClosingADoor
Member
How exactly will the UK have any increased sovereignty when leaving the EU, but still wanting open borders for trade and such? This means you'll have to adopt the rules from the EU for that, which is by far the bulk of all regulation coming from the EU.
guy on the bus went on a rant about how immigrants need to go back to their country at us after we were talking about the half-truths the leave campaign have been spreading. When we called him out on his point. he told us it's fact because he has lived in the area his entire life.
I kinda wish the entire altercation wasn't so abrasive. I really wanted to tackle any misconceptions he had and see things from a different point of view.
I kinda wish the entire altercation wasn't so abrasive. I really wanted to tackle any misconceptions he had and see things from a different point of view.
anonymous_abc
Member
So in all seriousness, why yay for the UK but nay for Europe?
SlickShoes
Member
The deciding factor in the Scottish Referendum was OLD folk. They voted in large numbers to stay in the UK.
Lot of the rumblings from the elderly this time is about getting our country back and such nonsense. Quite worried Brexit will happen.
Even as a Yes Scotland voter I don't particularly want us to be fired in to another referendum for leaving the UK if the vote spread in Scotland is vastly different from England and we end up with a Brexit.
Lot of the rumblings from the elderly this time is about getting our country back and such nonsense. Quite worried Brexit will happen.
Even as a Yes Scotland voter I don't particularly want us to be fired in to another referendum for leaving the UK if the vote spread in Scotland is vastly different from England and we end up with a Brexit.
QuicheFontaine
Member
You don't need to have open borders for trade!
Nor does trading with the EU mean "you have to adopt the rules from the EU". Look at this wikipedia page - the EU has loads of trade deals with plenty of sovereign nations. Mexico has a FTA with the EU, but they don't need to go by the decisions of the European Courts, or commit to visa-free travel, or "ever closer union" or any of that bunk.
Because I feel like the UK is my country (don't start Frag...), not so much for Europe.
ClosingADoor
Member
Most people are talking about a Switzerland or Norway style deal, so staying in EFTA or the EEA. This means visa free travel (and I doubt doing away with that is a good idea within Europe!) and some other regulation.
Yes, of course leaving the EU means their courts do not rule for the UK anymore. You'd still be member of the European Court of Human Rights.
I just find the whole sovereignty argument a bit bullshit honestly, since most problems the UK is dealing with are from their own making. Leaving the EU will not magically fix anything and is only creating problems for a lot of people.
I'm seeing a lot of 'democracy means making your own laws and rules' posts from people on social media, yet when quizzed as to which laws and rules the EU have dictated we adhere to they don't like, they don't actually know.
Why would people just continue to parrot the same tired old BS without actually doing a little research into what they are talking about?
Why would people just continue to parrot the same tired old BS without actually doing a little research into what they are talking about?
QuicheFontaine
Member
Well, they're right aren't they? Why do they need an example of an EU rule they don't like?
Imagine the EU was replaced with a benevolent dictator. They seem to make pretty good laws, so it's all good right?
No, I'd prefer that we decide our own laws. I'm not interested in having 1/28th say about the amount of VAT on teabags in Slovakia. I want a 100% say over what happens here. I don't think running your own country is tired old BS.
ClosingADoor
Member
Countries set their own VAT levels, so your example is already ridiculous.
The EU is also not a dictator. You vote for these people either directly or indirectly (your countries government appoints them).
And some examples would be good, since a lot of the complaints are about "ridiculous EU laws". I have yet to hear many.
QuicheFontaine
Member
Not really, member states do set their own VAT levels but they have to comply with the EU VAT directive.
I didn't say they were! You seem to have missed my point there.
Anecdotally, a constant source of amusement, frustration and fear have bene the number of people who are always "All MPs are cunts! Fucking kiddie fiddlers, why listen to them?!" that have just been regurgitating lies fed to them by Boris Trump.
I mean, I get why Trump has a fanbase in the US since he's massively racist and isn't a part of the political system, but Boris is a career politician from Eton. He just has a little bit of wit and can get away with any old shit.
But that's just the thing, 'we' (as in me and you) would have no more say about rules and laws, the elected politicians do, regardless of whether it's the Conservative government or our elected MEP's.
When given the choice of a socialist Europe or a conservative government in complete control, I know which one I prefer.
The point I was making is that people say they are interested enough in the affairs of the EU to make snap judgements about things and vote a particular way, but aren't interested enough to actually find things out for themselves and just parrot tired rhetoric.
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