JonathanEx
Member
He's not been prominent in the campaign - if you're not following it closely, he's certainly not cut through in terms of the news agenda.
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Brexit |OT| UK Referendum on EU Membership - 23 June 2016
- Thread starter QuicheFontaine
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He's not been prominent in the campaign - if you're not following it closely, he's certainly not cut through in terms of the news agenda.
Labour's northern voters don't read the Guardian sums it up basically. Gordon Brown is more associated with the Remain vote than Corbyn right now.
Well, from several news reports here, supporters from French clubs OM (Marseilles) and PSG (Paris) started the fight, as they usually do whenever they are facing each others, but things degenerated when English supporters started to throw bottles at the policemen who came to restore public order.
I don't really care who started the fight, though.
I was just reacting to the as always Thejackburton used two times, because you won't make me believe that English hooligans are better, more well-behaved people, than hooligans from other countries. They're all looking for trouble, by definition.
And if I obviously don't classify any English fan as a hooligan, I'm afraid there's nothing preventing every English hooligan from being an English fan.
TL;DR - There's no excuse for people acting like this.
PJV3
Member
I don't know, the country is making a potentially catastrophic decision and the fuckers can't put down the vimto for five minutes to find out what the leader of the opposition thinks.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Most people just aren't that interested in politics. The extent you can do anything about that is quite limited. At that point, it's up to politicians to go out there and make sure they get heard. Labour is doing that quite poorly at the moment. I think they thought they could rely on Remain getting through easily enough as expected and so just wanted to let the Conservative in-fighting continue; if so that was a bloody stupid decision.
labour could easily and relentlessly brand brexit as a completely tory driven exercise. talk about how iain duncan smith, boris and gove want to use it as a power grab to impose more cuts.
mcdonnell has talked about tory brexit but the whole corbyn operation has no message discipline, is unwilling to be relentless in its support of remain and is openly hostile towards the main media outlets and unwilling to use them to their advantage.
i know blaming corbyn for everything is tedious and annoying but it's labour voters who will decide this referendum and we have no leadership on the issue
mcdonnell has talked about tory brexit but the whole corbyn operation has no message discipline, is unwilling to be relentless in its support of remain and is openly hostile towards the main media outlets and unwilling to use them to their advantage.
i know blaming corbyn for everything is tedious and annoying but it's labour voters who will decide this referendum and we have no leadership on the issue
When the Tories are doing such a good job fighting themselves, an opposition party becomes somewhat redundant.
But seriously, it really highlights the half-assed, ineffectual, soft-touch leadership of Corbyn. You'd hardly know he's there. Maybe he'd make a good policy advisor, but a leader is supposed to be a lightning-rod of personality that people rally behind. That is not Corbyn.
man, what could have been...
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
I think that would be a terrible idea that would alienate a lot of Labour voters. Brexit obviously isn't a completely Tory-driven exercise, Labour voters as a collective are only marginally pro-Brexit and telling them they're Conservative pawns is not going to go down well, it's only going to increase anomie and disaffection with Labour. Remain is failing because it's not telling anyone about all the good things the EU does, it's wasting time with shitty attacks on Boris Johnson that bounce off him like water off a duck.
Thejackburton
Banned
great attitude
russian fans broke through security when they scored the equaliser and started attacking england fans. apparently it was the english fans fault.
SporeCrawler
Member
so is it now a foregone conclusion that brexit will happen?
ferrasvansen
Member
Nope two polls tonight suggest neck and neck and next week we shall see some phone polls which usually favour remain.
Not really. Betting markets give it about a 1 in 4 chance I think.
No, there is still a high "don't know" in most of the polls. At this stage if you are still "don't know" you are more than likely to side with the status quo.
'Violence is the weapon of the weak'. As always.
More cuts eh? As opposed to the more cuts that we're already going to see under Cameron and Osborne if Remain wins?
The choice of 'more cuts' or 'more cuts' isn't exactly an appealing one.
Reassure us further, Mystic Meg. This whole situation has been so volatile, I can't even keep track of it anymore.
PJV3
Member
Cameron is now warning about BRUTAL AUSTERITY, I half think the English love a bit of pain.
JonathanEx
Member
Well with how many of the cabinet have been known to see women of a certain standing it's definitely true within the government
Don't worry, it's a fake referendum. Most medias are promising the end of the world if Leave wins and most people are afraid of change. Zero chance Leave wins.
Have you seen the newspapers? Most are pretty heavily pushing for leave.
Ether_Snake
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I don't believe one bit that Cameron wants the UK to stay in.
The Queen doesn't.
Rupert Murdoch doesn't.
Hence Cameron doesn't, period.
The Queen doesn't.
Rupert Murdoch doesn't.
Hence Cameron doesn't, period.
JonathanEx
Member
I dunno, if we did leave, that's shitloads of negotiations and stuff to deal with that isn't directly your policies you wanted to introduce. There'd be a bit of you that just wouldn't want to have to deal with doing that.
PJV3
Member
Boris will be dealing with that stuff, he's well known for loving that detailed boring stuff.
Actually that would be pretty funny, Cameron loses the referendum and gets the sack, Boris negotiations go badly and the what's left of the UK vote to stay in the EU, Boris gets the sack.
Osborne becomes PM and..
CharmingCharlie
Member
Not sure what you are saying here but there will be no going back to the EU even if negotiations go badly. If the UK votes to leave on the 23rd that will be it, we will get 2 years to negotiate our withdrawel. If by the end of those 2 years things are not settled we leave the EU and whatever is unresolved reverts back to WTO standards.
Once we are out we are out, it will be decades before we are in a position to rejoin the EU again, if ever. Even then if we do try re-joining (probably not in my lifetime) we would have to accept the Euro and freedom of movement which the UK will never accept.
I am a leave supporter but I am under no illusion if we vote to leave on the 23rd that will be the end of the UK in the EU (certainly in my life time at least). Well that is what I am led to believe, I some how can't quite actually believe Cammy and his cronies will go along with this even if leave win.
Ether_Snake
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Cameron surely plans to step down afterwards.
Yes I agree he wants to step down, this is just his last mission for papa Murdoch, for which he will be well rewarded with years of cozy life in working some faceless firm, 12 hours a week.
PJV3
Member
I was just joking about Boris having to do some actual work. Article 50 of the EU says if both parties UK/EU want to go past deadlines then they can. I would hope that if the world is falling apart that there would be a way back from the brink. Surely even hardcore exiters have a limit to the amount of damage that is acceptable.
Not at all. Article 50 is only activated when a member state of the EU informs the European Council of it's intention to leave. The two years of negotiations only come into effect when that happens. It'd be utterly moronic for Article 50 to be triggered on the 23rd.
CharmingCharlie
Member
Not a chance in hell will the 2 years be extended. It would be in Europe's interest to see the UK fall apart and collapse, they will do us no favours. The only way I could see the UK extending the 2 years is if we drag our heals on activating Article 50 (maybe activate it 6 - 12 months after the referendum).
There is no "back from the brink" with this. The brink is the 23rd, if we vote to leave on the 23rd we are out of the EU (by that I don't mean we leave that day I mean symbolically that is the point of no return). I mean I am a leave supporter, I would like an amicable break up but I know that is not going to happen because it would be in the EU's best interests to fuck the UK as hard as possible and as we have seen with Greece they are quite fond of doing that.
Yeah I know that, I didn't think it was pertinent information to add at the time. I know that on the 24th we won't activate article 50, but my point still stands on the 23rd if we vote to leave that will be that, we will be leaving and the only question will be how long it would take ? There is no "vote leave, get worse deal and so vote to not leave".
Ether_Snake
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If the only way the EU can keep itself united is by fucking up the members that are most likely to exit to scare the others into line, then the EU is already over. It just gives ammo to Euro-skeptics, and frightens people in countries on the periphery, who feel that their interests are not being taken into account, that's a big pyramidal scheme.
The UK's exit just makes people in the EU believe even more in its inevitable demise, it will worsen the EU's ability to manage any future crisis.
I think this is also a point that seems to be lost of many.
A British exit could potentially have disastrous affects on the financial stability of the EU, and by proxy, the rest of the world, surely it's the last thing we need after the bankers took us to hell in a handbasket?
Sure it's all well and good saying, well we'll be out so it doesn't matter, but that's such a blinkered way of seeing the whole global economy.
Corbynis only interested in preaching to the converted, taking selfies and signing autographs with them. His only other aim is to ensure the nutty left take control of the party, winning the referendum or getting labour into government just isn't on his radar losing half its seats in 2020 is acceptable collateral damage.
Pretty sure he'll vote out himself, he starts every pro eu speech by slagging it off!
Pretty sure he'll vote out himself, he starts every pro eu speech by slagging it off!
Anecdotally I'd say the polls heavily underestimate the leave vote to be honest, leave voters also seem much more motivated
jamieson87
Member
The same could have been said of the "Yes" campaign in Scotland during Indyref.
The silent majority won it for "No".
Silent majority?
Polls had "No" ahead. The so called silent majority edged up the support. Or do you mean on social media and public? Where the yes camp were notably more vocal.
Mr Nash
square pies = communism
Exactly this. The last thing the EU wants is for the UK to do well if it votes Leave, as it will just further fuel other euro skeptic parties. France has elections next year, and it wouldn't do to have Le Pen and the gang enjoy some wind in their sales were the UK to do reasonably alright after breaking from the EU, and it would just domino from there as other parties latched on to that. The EU will put the screws to the UK every way it can after the 23rd if Britain votes out.
nekkid
It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
I think that sums up a lot of people's views on politics in general.
milanbaros
Member?
I just don't believe the big voting block of 50+ will put their house price and pension (through stock returns) at risk for the sake of lower immigration when they aren't even the people effected by it.
There are too many voters who need the status quo and they won't be in favour of putting everything at risk.
There are too many voters who need the status quo and they won't be in favour of putting everything at risk.
Heh, as if by magic this weeks economist has a piece on how Corbyn is failing to mobilize Labour:
http://www.economist.com/news/leade...ty-letting-down-remain-campaign-jeremy-corbyn
Nothing that hasn't already been said here - he's not speaking much on it, when he does it's to start with a list of complaints, and Labour isn't getting its message out. Interesting fact - he isn't in the top 10 list of mentioned politicians on the debate. Partly because he went on holiday during the campaigning period...
I do think this is an incredibly stupid, tactical blunder for him though. Firstly, it won't get him into number 10 no matter how it falls out. Secondly, he is woefully misunderstanding his 'base'. His base is enthusiastically in support of Europe. Running this half assed campaign may be enough to let the more Centre left MPS actually take him out.
http://www.economist.com/news/leade...ty-letting-down-remain-campaign-jeremy-corbyn
Nothing that hasn't already been said here - he's not speaking much on it, when he does it's to start with a list of complaints, and Labour isn't getting its message out. Interesting fact - he isn't in the top 10 list of mentioned politicians on the debate. Partly because he went on holiday during the campaigning period...
I do think this is an incredibly stupid, tactical blunder for him though. Firstly, it won't get him into number 10 no matter how it falls out. Secondly, he is woefully misunderstanding his 'base'. His base is enthusiastically in support of Europe. Running this half assed campaign may be enough to let the more Centre left MPS actually take him out.
That's the thing it's the silent Tory voters that are strongly for leave, the ones that don't do politics, don't answer polls and normally just vote the PM they see as most competent. The ones that pollsters always miss
I have seen some crazy stuff said in here but no. No it wouldn't.
Much like how a Russian collapse would damage the EU economy so would a UK collapse, which wouldn't happen anyway.
With the loss of its financial hub (London is the only global exchange in Europe, 3rd or 2nd largest in the world depending on scale and larger then most EU exchanges combined), 2nd biggest economy, most influential member, most powerful military and strongest connection to the commonwealth, the US and the state with the most external trade connections the EU will be damaged far more then the UK.
The UK already does a massive amount of trade with nations outside the EU in deals it set up without involving the EU and as net importer from the EU individual nations would be eager to set up trade agreements as soon as possible. A 5th of German car manufacturing is sold to the UK, they will be desperate to see that that isn't interrupted. Without UK trade Germany, France and all the other beneficiaries to the EU would end up in recession from the loss of trade, they won't want to see that happen.
Would the economic hit of leaving suck? Yes. But it wont last, nature and ceo's abhor a vacuum, it will be filled quickly.
jamieson87
Member
Yes, I mean the Yes side were far more vocal and visible. Lots of Yes signage in windows ect.
Gave the illusion that there was an irresistible surge towards yes.
Those who want to stick with status quo don't tend to be as vocal about It.
Think it'll be the same this time.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
I think pretty much every teacher I know will vote Remain because Michael Gove is Satan to them.
My wife is a year 1 teacher in a disadvantaged school, she is very pro EU, and always points out that the kids who turn up not speaking English etc etc are always the most hard working well mannered kids, and the ones who cause her the most problems are the English ones....
The only issue she ever has is communicating to parents with any concerns and the fact the adults struggle to realise the rules regarding pick up... and on daily basis they have incidents because someone the school has never seen comes to pick up a child and they don't speak English
Stereogatari
Banned
looool the Turcophobia is out again:
The proposal in question would have been to allow visa-free travel for Turks and their families who hold a special green passport which only civil servants and their spouses and children under 25 can get.
That special passport already allows visa-free travel to some other EU countries and I don't want to be stereotypical but those who have access to these green passports are usually better quality of Turks and also less likely to migrate since they can live a good life in Turkey. So that context is turned into "1 MILLION TURKS! THE HORDES ARE COMING!"
The proposal in question would have been to allow visa-free travel for Turks and their families who hold a special green passport which only civil servants and their spouses and children under 25 can get.
That special passport already allows visa-free travel to some other EU countries and I don't want to be stereotypical but those who have access to these green passports are usually better quality of Turks and also less likely to migrate since they can live a good life in Turkey. So that context is turned into "1 MILLION TURKS! THE HORDES ARE COMING!"
Headline should read: ... Opens door to 1 million brown people.looool the Turcophobia is out again:
The proposal in question would have been to allow visa-free travel for Turks and their families who hold a special green passport which only civil servants and their spouses and children under 25 can get.
That special passport already allows visa-free travel to some other EU countries and I don't want to be stereotypical but those who have access to these green passports are usually better quality of Turks and also less likely to migrate since they can live a good life in Turkey. So that context is turned into "1 MILLION TURKS! THE HORDES ARE COMING!"
It's just code words at this point.
QuicheFontaine
Member
Leading up to the Scottish Indyref there was precisely one poll which showed Yes winning (that one where everyone lost their shit for a few days and made "The Vow").
Since January we've routinely seen polls with Leave winning, so I have to at least predict that this referendum will be closer.
Sod it, prediction time!
Remain 49%
Leave 51%
Turnout 72%
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