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[KingSnake]

Is this more of the "the EU will be massive dicks to us as a warning to others, rather than act in their own self-interest" that I've been hearing lately?

Being dicks to UK is in the own interest of a lot of leaders in EU who have to face internally the push from extreme right and face them as competitors in elections.

Also, the blaming game can work wonders the other way around too. Anything slightly bad happening with EU's economy in the next years will be because of the evil Britons.

 

[Timbuktu]

It would mean cuts, looking at the right wing Tories likely to take the helm.

 

[Tak3n]

There is at least another two in the same area, my wife and me!

This feels appropriate

 

[Madchad]

Trouble is, our economy, utilities, natural resources and sense of community aren't good enough to be able to do that.

We aren't in a position to be self sufficient, we rely on imports of so many things.

You think in the case of a brexit countries would suddenly no longer sell things to consumers in this country ? They would be shooting them selves in the foot.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

cmon, don't do that, Osbourne is literally blackmailing you... a emergency budget 2 weeks after leave vote with tax increase

Two Weeks! yeah he would of really had chance to look at the figures wouldn't he!

I'm hoping to see this called out in the media for what it is - a threat. And a poorly thought out one at that.

Edit:

Being dicks to UK is in the own interest of a lot of leaders in EU who have to face internally the push from extreme right and face them as competitors in elections.

Also, the blaming game can work wonders the other way around too. Anything slightly bad happening with EU's economy in the next years will be because of the evil Britons.

Ok, but turning to the point I was addressing. Say we come back 5, 10 years after leave, cap in hand, asking to rejoin. We're applying as a new member, so we agree to use the Euro, agree to Schengen.

Do you really think this would take 20 years minimum? That the EU would say, nah hold up mate there's a queue. We need to sort out Albania first.

 

[danowat]

You think in the case of a brexit countries would suddenly no longer sell things to consumers in this country ? They would be shooting them selves in the foot.

Not at all, but are we assuming they will cost the same?

 

[Miles Quaritch]

You think in the case of a brexit countries would suddenly no longer sell things to consumers in this country ? They would be shooting them selves in the foot.

I believe one of the arguments is they might raise the price because, well, they can...

 

[Undead]

Not at all, but are we assuming they will cost the same?

There's no way it will cost the same, high import charges combined with a punishment tax for leaving and they know we'll have to pay it because there will be no other options.

I mean if I was selling stuff that was sort of regulated in prices with a single market, then suddenly had the option of selling it higher to an outside country that absolutely needs it, I would raise prices as high as possible, that's just business sense.

 

[Maledict]

There is absolutely no question that if we vote to leave, Europe is going to play ultra hardball. Without going into too many details, I have several colleagues in the Uks EU service, and it's been made absolutely clear that the EU is going to make this as difficult as possible to discourage other countries voting to leave. What people forget is that whilst we do import more from the EU than we export to them, as a percentage of trade it's massively in their favour - we'd hurting over 50% of our trade, whilst they are hurting around 6%. That's a much easier pain to bear.

Also amusing to hear stories of Gordon Brown shouting at Cameron for fucking the campaign up so much... ;-)

 

[ferrasvansen]

I have a feeling Osborne is pulling a flanker here, i think if UK votes leave he will resign and sit back and watch the next chancellor probably a pro leaver have to deal with this. He can then say somewhere down the line, i told you so, quote what he said pre vote and boom, future leader. Sadly after Boris and his games this would not surprise me one little bit. They are more interested in playing for future Tory leadership than the god damn country, bunch of wankers the lot of them.

 

[Milton]

b) I am being forced to choose between living with an emboldened far-right government (Brexit) or a limping neoliberal right government (Remain) for 4 more years

This referendum should never have happened. The average voter has no fucking clue what they're talking about and cannot make an informed decision on this issue.

If you think the Conservative Party is far right then your political compass is seriously screwed up. And I'm not even a Tory supporter. Also you're being rather short-termist. Leaving the EU is about the long term. You need to think beyond whatever government we have at the moment.

 

[milanbaros]

There's no way it will cost the same, high import charges combined with a punishment tax for leaving and they know we'll have to pay it because there will be no other options.

I mean if I was selling stuff that was sort of regulated in prices with a single market, then suddenly had the option of selling it higher to an outside country that absolutely needs it, I would raise prices as high as possible, that's just business sense.

Don't forget the weaker pound would raise prices on everything imported and petrol prices etc.

 

[anonymous_abc]

Is this more of the "the EU will be massive dicks to us as a warning to others, rather than act in their own self-interest" that I've been hearing lately?

Shouldn't that be a in particular because of their self interest not against it?

 

[Maledict]

If you think the Conservative Party is far right then your political compass is seriously screwed up. And I'm not even a Tory supporter. Also you're being rather short-termist. Leaving the EU is about the long term. You need to think beyond whatever government we have at the moment.

In terms of economic policy, the current conservative government is the most right wing we have had since the war. They tried selling off the bloody trees for goodness sakes. They want to return government spending to pre-world war levels, which is a level of 'shrinking the state' that would make Thatcher blush.

They have repeatedly done things that according to all the biographies Thatcher herself ruled out as not doable - privatising the post office for example.

 

[ferrasvansen]

In terms of economic policy, the current conservative government is the most right wing we have had since the war. They tried selling off the bloody trees for goodness sakes. They want to return government spending to pre-world war levels, which is a level of 'shrinking the state' that would make Thatcher blush.

They have repeatedly done things that according to all the biographies Thatcher herself ruled out as not doable - privatising the post office for example.

Yep and under Johnson,Gove and IDS it will be even more right wing.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Shouldn't that be a in particular because of their self interest not against it?

No. I would even concede that on some issues being dicks to us will sometimes coincide with their self-interest. Not on the topic of us potentially rejoining on more favourable terms (to the EU) than we left though.

Why do you guys keep cropping out the top part of my post? :-/

 

[Milton]

In terms of economic policy, the current conservative government is the most right wing we have had since the war. They tried selling off the bloody trees for goodness sakes. They want to return government spending to pre-world war levels, which is a level of 'shrinking the state' that would make Thatcher blush.

They have repeatedly done things that according to all the biographies Thatcher herself ruled out as not doable - privatising the post office for example.

They are not far right, which is what the poster I quoted said.

I'm an intellectual and even I can't make an informed decision on this issue. I can't imagine the mind of the "man on the street".

Jesus christ, I hope you were kidding when you wrote that.

 

[Maledict]

They are not far right, which is what the poster I quoted said.



Jesus christ, I hope you were kidding when you wrote that.

And what I'm saying is that in terms of economic policy, they are absolutely far right. They are doing stuff that is the wet dream of Republicans in terms of budgets and the role of government - by their own words they have a fundamental mission to transform the nature of government in this country, and the answer is always 'less'.

Their tackling of social issues is absolutely better than previous Tory governments, but economically they are the most right wing we have had in our life times and absolutely far right. Returning government spending to pre-world war levels is a level of insanity that I don't think most people realise is happening.

 

[danowat]

BJ and MG have today said that leave could create an 'economic shock' that would force them to raise £15 billion in tax, likely through income tax.

It's gonna cost us.

 

[hodgy100]

BJ and MG have today said that leave could create an 'economic shock' that would force them to raise £15 billion in tax, likely through income tax.

It's gonna cost us.

wow they admitted it?!

is there a link I can pass around?

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Robert Peston saying that George Osborne has effectively bet his job on Remain winning with this "Punishment Budget", as 57 Tory MPs say he has to go if he tries to push it.

What is it with Remain making this referendum a vote on the popularity of deeply unpopular figures?

 

[KingSnake]

Ok, but turning to the point I was addressing. Say we come back 5, 10 years after leave, cap in hand, asking to rejoin. We're applying as a new member, so we agree to use the Euro, agree to Schengen.

Do you really think this would take 20 years minimum? That the EU would say, nah hold up mate there's a queue. We need to sort out Albania first.

If you apply and agree with everything (euro, Schengen etc) like any other candidate it won't take 20 years, of course. But the duration still depends on what changes you'll do after leaving EU and what kind of changes (back) you need to do to re-join. It's not that easy. If you want again some exceptions I guess that will be pretty difficult to negotiate too.

And generally, yes, the message that EU will try to send is that is difficult as hell to get in and out of EU whenever you want.

 

[Thejackburton]

BJ and MG have today said that leave could create an 'economic shock' that would force them to raise £15 billion in tax, likely through income tax.

It's gonna cost us.

so the cost of the EU membership fee each year then.

 

[danowat]

I misread the article, my mistake, I think that was Osbournes reaction / post brexit budget.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...johnson-and-michael-gove-announce-new-laws-t/

 

[gerg]

Reading around I'm now also convinced that Osborne's "emergency budget" is ill-conceived.

 

[Roberto Larcos]

so the cost of the EU membership fee each year then.

So £6b more than the membership fee. Unless we decide to stop supporting farmers / Wales / Cornwall.

 

[hodgy100]

Reading around I'm now also convinced that Osborne's "emergency budget" is ill-conceived.

yeah. this remain campaign is fucking awful.

 

[Lego Boss]

so the cost of the EU membership fee each year then.

But leaving the EU SAVES us £350 Gigabillion a day doesn't it?

We can spend it on hospitals, schools. R&D and 25 new HS train links!!!!

Everyone will be better off . . .

ALso: saying that there is effectively no plan in place is tantamount to me saying I'm not going to take an umbrella out with me, even though it's raining.

If you've got no plan, then why ask the question in the first place?

It really is getting worse and worse for Remain. It's been too negative all the way through and not there's no way back from the precipice.

They might deserve it, but we don't deserve a bunch of right-wing nutcases running the country. I'm sure that even the staunchest of Cotswold Tories never voted for that . . .

 

[Tak3n]

Reading around I'm now also convinced that Osborne's "emergency budget" is ill-conceived.

The problem is he has now forced people to respond, by threatening people two things will happen, either they will fall in line, or they push back...

silly man...silly silly man Osbourne is

 

[ferrasvansen]

yeah. this remain campaign is fucking awful.

Thing is do Cameron and Osborne really want remain to win, i think they are prepping for a leave vote and to leave others to deal with the mess and therefore they can escape the blame.

 

[Roberto Larcos]

Bookies are going to lose a lot of money. Leave odds have been long for a very long time, and are still far too long.

 

[PJV3]

Should have voted for Ed, the clown car is now going full throttle for the white cliffs of Dover.

 

[milanbaros]

Bookies are going to lose a lot of money. Leave odds have been long for a very long time, and are still far too long.

No they won't. They set the odds to make money I.e. A lot more money is going on remain.

 

[Stereogatari]

Jesus christ, I hope you were kidding when you wrote that.

No. I am. I love pursuing reading in a variety of subjects; history, international relations, physics, literature and more.

Does that not make me an intellectual?

 

[Arksy]

Not really. Burkeian philosophy still permeates through British conservatism. There's a reason why the general tory member is generally far more eurosceptic than the parliamentary party.

 

[milanbaros]

The problem is he has now forced people to respond, by threatening people two things will happen, either they will fall in line, or they push back...

silly man...silly silly man Osbourne is

I think it is a good idea. It will all be on the mind of the undecided voter when they go in the booth.

If the vote is leave he won't be chancellor anyway, so it is no risk for him.

 

[anonymous_abc]

Why do you guys keep cropping out the top part of my post? :-/

Because I had no issue with that part. I also think 20 years is overly long.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

I think it is a good idea. It will all be on the mind of the undecided voter when they go in the booth.

If the vote is leave he won't be chancellor anyway, so it is no risk for him.

I think the undecided voter will look down at the ballot paper and the question will turn into squiggly lines which re-form as "Do you like George Osborne?".

Edit:

Because I had no issue with that part. I also think 20 years is overly long.

Don't we actually agree on quite a lot of things? Stop that, it's weird.

 

[Madchad]

I think the undecided voter will look down at the ballot paper and the question will turn into squiggly lines which re-form as "Do you like George Osborne?".

Yer i would not be the least bit surprised if a lot of undecided simply go off how the feel about Cameron and Osbourne when the get to the box.

 

[ferrasvansen]

I think the undecided voter will look down at the ballot paper and the question will turn into squiggly lines which re-form as "Do you like George Osborne?".

They liked the bastard enough to vote him and that muppet Cameron into No 10 again.

 

[Milton]

And what I'm saying is that in terms of economic policy, they are absolutely far right. They are doing stuff that is the wet dream of Republicans in terms of budgets and the role of government - by their own words they have a fundamental mission to transform the nature of government in this country, and the answer is always 'less'.

Their tackling of social issues is absolutely better than previous Tory governments, but economically they are the most right wing we have had in our life times and absolutely far right. Returning government spending to pre-world war levels is a level of insanity that I don't think most people realise is happening.

Right wing is one thing, but 'far right' is a distinction even I don't think is fair to make regarding the Tories. That is a term which carries with it its own set of values. I don't like the way Osborne has pinched the spare change from the pockets of the poor but he's also taken more money from the rich than any chancellor in history, raised the personal tax allowance, and is making small steps at least towards getting corporations to pay their way. I think people are mistakenly labeling austerity as a component of the far right, when actually austerity causes a rise in the far right.

 

[Milton]

No. I am. I love pursuing reading in a variety of subjects; history, international relations, physics, literature and more.

Does that not make me an intellectual?

It's like describing yourself as cool. If you have to say it...

 

[Arksy]

Yer i would not be the least bit surprised if a lot of undecided simply go off how the feel about Cameron and Osbourne when the get to the box.

I don't think the undecided voter will bother showing up.

It's like describing yourself as cool. If you have to say it...

English is his like, fourth language. I wouldn't be so hard on him for that. Maybe well-educated would be better.

 

[hodgy100]

Thing is do Cameron and Osborne really want remain to win, i think they are prepping for a leave vote and to leave others to deal with the mess and therefore they can escape the blame.

thats what scares me about the tories owning the debate on both sides. I feel like the remain side won't show the real reasons for people falling on hardships, because they are the ones that contributed to it :/

 

[Madchad]

I don't think the undecided voter will bother showing up.

True there is that to. Nothing worse than NOT voting though, can never get my head around people who cba to vote then go on to moan about how stuff is not going right.

 

[Hasney]

Think the ComRes telephone poll got lost in the mix. Pretty much a tie with Remain a point ahead still. From UK Polling Report:

The recent shift in favour of Leave is now undeniable, but the polls are still inconsistent in terms of whether that shift has left Leave with a clear lead, or the race neck-and-neck. Opinium and ComRes now have the race neck-and-neck; YouGov, ICM and TNS have Leave in the lead (and ORB have both, depending on if you look at their figures for all voters, or likely voters).
The result now depends on whether there is a shift back towards the status quo over the final week (or indeed, on the day itself). If you think back to the Scottish referendum there was a movement towards YES in the month before, and then Scottish voters swung back towards NO over the last fortnight. That movement towards the status quo on the final straight is a common pattern in referendums across the globe: as it gets close to polling day some voters recoil from the perceived risks of whatever unknown they are voting upon. Time will tell if we see a similar pattern over the next week and a bit.

I think the undecided voter will look down at the ballot paper and the question will turn into squiggly lines which re-form as "Do you like George Osborne?".

Before reforming again to say "Do you really want to take the risk based on what Boris and Nige say?" Making them have a panic attack and flee the polling booth.

True there is that to. Nothing worse than NOT voting though, can never get my head around people who cba to vote then go on to moan about how stuff is not going right.

I usually agree, but this campaign has been run so terribly even the televised debates just showing everyone up as a cunt including the public asking questions that of almost feels like it might be worth backing out of the vote because they don't know what's best.

 

[Phantast2k]

@jimwaterson
Picture of the pro-Brexit flotilla of ships heading up the Thames to the heart of pro-Remain London. (This is real.)

@mikeysmith So I’m on a Remain boat with Bob Geldof and Rachel Johnson. They’re heading off Nigel Farage’s Thames flotilla.

@jimwaterson Bob Geldof has launched a counter-attack on Farage's pro-Brexit flotilla using a boat armed with a soundsystem.

@kayaburgess (Video) BREAKING: The state of British politics summed up in a clip of a flotilla face-off

:O

 

[Arksy]

Tories have been owning both sides of the campaign because Labor are AFK.

 

[FlammableD]

we're really going to do it aren't we

 

[Maledict]

Right wing is one thing, but 'far right' is a distinction even I don't think is fair to make regarding the Tories. That is a term which carries with it its own set of values. I don't like the way Osborne has pinched the spare change from the pockets of the poor but he's also taken more money from the rich than any chancellor in history, raised the personal tax allowance, and is making small steps at least towards getting corporations to pay their way. I think people are mistakenly labeling austerity as a component of the far right, when actually austerity causes a rise in the far right.

I think we just have different definitions of 'far right' in our heads tbh. Might be mistaken, but I think you're view of far right is of a particular grouping of people and policies (such as golden dawn in Greece, marine lie pen in France etc)? I'm coming at it from the view of the sliding scale of left to right wing, where Blair is centre left, Major centre right, and the current economic policy is ultra far right on that scale.