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[ClosingADoor]

UK still has an economy that can stand on its own pretty well, but Dutch economy is totally dependent on free trade and freedom of movement across EU. But who knows, general well being doesn't seem to be a good enough incentive in the face of "fuck the immigrants".

The anti-EU sentiment in Holland is amazing. Yet a huge amount of people rely on exporting stuff for their income and work at international companies. But let's make that more difficult. It's really something to see. Everything that is wrong here now is either because of the EU or immigration. While there are some major problems, most are with people that already have Dutch citizenship, so what leaving the EU will do about that is anyone's guess.

According to research carried out by the Netherlands Bureau for Economic Policy Analysis, the Netherlands earns some 33% of its income from the export of goods and services. In 2014, the value of exports was 83.2% of the Netherlands’ GDP

 

[gerg]

b) I am being forced to choose between living with an emboldened far-right government (Brexit) or a limping neoliberal right government (Remain) for 4 more years

Even in a case of remain victory the margin will be so slim that I can't imagine the Brexiteers letting Cameron's government accomplishing much of anything for the remainder of his term. It'd be good to have a government that actually accomplished something

Spoiler

good

again, or even a Labour party competent enough to take advantage of all the turmoil!

 

[Ashes]

It'd be good to have a government that actually accomplished something

Spoiler

good

again, or even a Labour party competent enough to take advantage of all the turmoil!

Doubt Labour has any chance to be honest. Nobody cares about Corbyn.

 

[gerg]

Doubt Labour has any chance to be honest. Nobody cares about Corbyn.

Oh, for sure, hence my disillusion with the current political campaign. In a somewhat nihilistic sense a Leave victory might at least encourage a much more immediate reshuffling of the political landscape.

 

[CharmingCharlie]

The average voter has no fucking clue what they're talking about and cannot make an informed decision on this issue.

To be fair the same could be said about our current politicians when you look at how they have managed to get themselves into this fucking hole in the first place.

 

[Lashley]

Looks like we're leaving :/

Labour are fucking useless too, no idea who I'll vote for in the next election

Fucks sake

 

[Arksy]

So most polls have come out in recent days showing leave ahead? Have I got this right?

 

[Dead Man]

Damn Britain, a few months ago I thought you would remain in the EU for sure. I hope it goes smoothly.

 

[danowat]

So most polls have come out in recent days showing leave ahead? Have I got this right?

I mean, I'm not saying I called it, but.....

 

[Izuna]

Good for you that I'm a foreigner.

But you still got a mail vote right?

 

[Jimbob Smalls]

Didn't you get the memo? The stock market is meaningless. It's not like it reflects the future prospects of businesses today. No sir. It's a nothing.

Of course the stock traders are going to bet heavily on this, it's their job.

 

[dalin80]

That's not correct BTW at all.

The economic arguments worked really well - when Leave was talking economics as well. Two weeks ago remain was increasing its vote lead, and even traditional conservative voters were shifting over. When the argument is about economics, Remain wins.

There haven't been any economic arguments we have had headlines like 'Osborne predicts 30 billion pound losses and massive tax increases after Brexit!'

Can we see your working out and sources for that random number buddy?

'Uhm, no... But it's totally true, you can trust me'.

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

I work for a large British law in NYC. How worried should I be? Will the industry be affected in any way?

 

[danowat]

I work for a large British law in NYC. How worried should I be? Will the industry be affected in any way?

Hard to say without a crystal ball, but I think, at the very least, the ripples of a decision will affect a lot of things worldwide.

I wouldn't worry, you have no control over it, what will be will be.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

So most polls have come out in recent days showing leave ahead? Have I got this right?

In the last week (since 8 June) we've had 8 polls with Leave ahead and 1 poll with Remain ahead.

 

[RedShift]

So glad I'm gonna be at glasto for the results. Being drunk in a field with ~200,000 other mostly like minded people is probably the best way to deal with the outcome either way.

Just need to make sure I avoid the left field tent.

 

[Tak3n]

if Osborne is allowed to lie and claim today that he will do a emergency budget 2 weeks after a out vote, and this is how I am going to fuck you over for voting out, then that could bring remain back in the lead.... as tax increases and fuel duty being increased will always affect people...

 

[Maledict]

There haven't been any economic arguments we have had headlines like 'Osborne predicts 30 billion pound losses and massive tax increases after Brexit!'

Can we see your working out and sources for that random number buddy?

'Uhm, no... But it's totally true, you can trust me'.

There's been a lot of solid economic arguments given alongside the doom laden headlines. When you have so many economists and business leaders saying the same thing something gets through despite the warnings of world war 3.

 

[Burai]

Oh, for sure, hence my disillusion with the current political campaign. In a somewhat nihilistic sense a Leave victory might at least encourage a much more immediate reshuffling of the political landscape.

Once we're out and the country isn't the land of milk and honey that the Leave camp predicted if there's a political reshuffling it won't be to the left. Only the right wing can provide the easy answer to the next question: What do we do with the foreigners that are already here?

 

[Jimbob Smalls]

if Osborne is allowed to lie and claim today that he will do a emergency budget 2 weeks after a out vote, and this is how I am going to fuck you over for voting out, then that could bring remain back in the lead.... as tax increases and fuel duty being increased will always affect people...

It's going to be suicide for remain. I can't believe that they think that's a good strategy.

A leave vote will be certainly interesting. I think watching all the European businesses and governments who have an invested interest in the UK scramble to protect them will be a thing to behold.

 

[Daffy Duck]

If we did leave, would there be anything stopping us joining again in the future?

 

[8bit]

If we did leave, would there be anything stopping us joining again in the future?

Rule 52, Amendment 31 : No backsies.

 

[RedShift]

If we did leave, would there be anything stopping us joining again in the future?

Without joining the Euro, Shengen, getting the great deal we have now? Yes.

And even putting all that aside I wouldn't count on it for 20 years at the bare minimum.

 

[PJV3]

If we did leave, would there be anything stopping us joining again in the future?

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201516/ldselect/ldeucom/138/13804.htm

Can a Member State’s decision to withdraw be reversed?
10.We asked our witnesses whether it was possible to reverse a decision to withdraw. Both agreed that a Member State could legally reverse a decision to withdraw from the EU at any point before the date on which the withdrawal agreement took effect. Once the withdrawal agreement had taken effect, however, withdrawal was final. Sir David told us: “It is absolutely clear that you cannot be forced to go through with it if you do not want to: for example, if there is a change of Government.”10 Professor Wyatt supported this view with the following legal analysis:

“There is nothing in the wording to say that you cannot. It is in accord with the general aims of the Treaties that people stay in rather than rush out of the exit door. There is also the specific provision in Article 50 to the effect that, if a State withdraws, it has to apply to rejoin de novo. That only applies once you have left. If you could not change your mind after a year of thinking about it, but before you had withdrawn, you would then have to wait another year, withdraw and then apply to join again. That just does not make sense. Analysis of the text suggests that you are entitled to change your mind.”11

11.Professor Wyatt clarified that “a Member State remains a member of the European Union until the withdrawal agreement takes effect”, so would continue its membership on the same legal terms as before the decision to withdraw.12


I'm not sure if this advice is valid or not after what people on here were saying to me a couple of days ago. Basically the government and nation can humiliate themselves and keep the status quo, otherwise possibly rejoin later with Euro etc, not happening.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Without joining the Euro, Shengen, getting the great deal we have now? Yes.

And even putting all that aside I wouldn't count on it for 20 years at the bare minimum.

Why a "bare minimum" of 20 years? Countries went from not even existing to being member states quicker than that, but you think a former member that literally complies with all the rules and regulations already would take longer?

Is this more of the "the EU will be massive dicks to us as a warning to others, rather than act in their own self-interest" that I've been hearing lately?

 

[Chinner]

Don't worry, we're going to make an informal deal and get free trade without the immigrants.

Rule great Britannia, Britannia rule the waves.
Britons never shall be slaves duuuur be nuurr nuuuuurrrrr

 

[spuckthew]

I'm hoping all of these polls are just a vocal minority of Leave voters, and it'll in fact be a victory for Remain on the day itself.

 

[Arksy]

In the last week (since 8 June) we've had 8 polls with Leave ahead and 1 poll with Remain ahead.

Awesome. That's incredible news. I hold out hope that leave will win. I'll be honest I wasn't very hopeful a month ago.

 

[milanbaros]

I still think remain will win by quite a margin.

 

[PJV3]

Osborne has to be screwed whatever the result now, 57 of his own MP's are calling him a petulant child willing to fuck the country over.

Extraordinary, and I remember pig-gate.

 

[Mr Nash]

Saw this and thought it was interesting. Looks at remain campaigners in Stoke-on-Trent and how things are going there:

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ers-brexit-stoke-on-trent-eu-referendum-video

 

[Spookie]

Osborne has to be screwed whatever the result now, 57 of his own MP's are calling him a petulant child willing to fuck the country over.

Extraordinary, and I remember pig-gate.

Leave or Remain are we going to need a general election this year when the cons implode post vote? :/

 

[blazinglord]

I'm voting remain because

a) I live near the Irish border, where there will be very real consequences of Brexit that some racist little Englander in a town with <1% immigrant population will never have to face. But that's ok, Nigel Farage said on live TV that "we'll need to keep an eye on it", which is an extremely reassuring policy for everyone here whose way of life heavily relies on the open border.

b) I am being forced to choose between living with an emboldened far-right government (Brexit) or a limping neoliberal right government (Remain) for 4 more years

This referendum should never have happened. The average voter has no fucking clue what they're talking about and cannot make an informed decision on this issue.

Ah democracy, so inconvenient isn't it? Our EU masters know best.

Furthermore, I still don't understand why the concerns of just under 2 million people in Northern Ireland (some of whom would probably like to see reunification with the republic anyway) should somehow outweigh the concerns of the rest of the UK. Far too much political weight and money is spent on this anomaly across the North Channel.

I am voting leave because I think the UK has played mother for far too long. It's time to step back and acknowledge that our days as a world power is over. I think we as a country would be a lot happier if we emulated the Nordic countries and countries like Canada and Australia, focusing on quiet diplomacy and not getting ourselves embroiled in foreign wars. Leaving the EU will reduce our international clout and will be the first step in shaking off our delusions of grandeur.

 

[ferrasvansen]

Osborne has to be screwed whatever the result now, 57 of his own MP's are calling him a petulant child willing to fuck the country over.

Extraordinary, and I remember pig-gate.

Thing is if economy does weaken which on balance looks extremely likely, who will those 57 mps make pay the difference, suggests to me they would rather massively mount up debt just like Labour previously or yet again punish the disabled and ill to make the books balance.

 

[Lego Boss]

I still think remain will win by quite a margin.

I still think this too.

I'm even starting to think England will beat Wales tomorrow.

Once is a mistake, twice is careless . . .

 

[danowat]

Ah democracy, so inconvenient isn't it? Our EU masters know best.

Furthermore, I still don't understand why the concerns of just under 2 million people in Northern Ireland (some of whom would probably like to see reunification with the republic anyway) should somehow outweigh the concerns of the rest of the UK. Far too much political weight and money is spent on this anomaly across the North Channel.

I am voting leave because I think the UK has played mother for far too long. It's time to step back and acknowledge that our days as a world power is over. I think we as a country would be a lot happier if we emulated the Nordic countries and countries like Canada and Australia, focusing on quiet diplomacy and not getting ourselves embroiled in foreign wars. Leaving the EU will reduce our international clout and will be the first step in shaking off our delusions of grandeur.

Trouble is, our economy, utilities, natural resources and sense of community aren't good enough to be able to do that.

We aren't in a position to be self sufficient, we rely on imports of so many things.

 

[gerg]

Osborne has to be screwed whatever the result now, 57 of his own MP's are calling him a petulant child willing to fuck the country over.

Extraordinary, and I remember pig-gate.

If they're not going to engage realistically with the results of a Leave vote then it's only reasonable that Osborne should!

 

[Tak3n]

If they're not going to engage realistically with the results of a Leave vote then it's only reasonable that Osborne should!

cmon, don't do that, Osbourne is literally blackmailing you... a emergency budget 2 weeks after leave vote with tax increase

Two Weeks! yeah he would of really had chance to look at the figures wouldn't he!

 

[ClivePwned]

Awesome. That's incredible news. I hold out hope that leave will win. I'll be honest I wasn't very hopeful a month ago.

Why do you want to fuck over poor Clive, Arksy?

 

[gerg]

cmon, don't do that, Osbourne is literally blackmailing you... a emergency budget 2 weeks after leave vote with tax increase

Two Weeks! yeah he would of really had chance to look at the figures wouldn't he!

I'd be less inclined to believe Osborne if his economic advice didn't line up with what every other major economic institution has suggested, even if the exact figures might themselves differ.

There's a difference between deriding Osborne's figures as "blackmail", which is ultimately an empty criticism, and actually engaging with them on their own terms as to how they're factually incorrect.

(And I don't even think Osborne is a great Chancellor! Given how far off track we are from his previous positions I'm sure it's likely these figures aren't correct.)

 

[Tak3n]

Osbourne said

"No Conservative wants to raise taxes, least of all me but equally Conservative and Labour MPs understand you cannot have chaos in your public finances... a Conservative government would do what is needed to deal with huge instability in our economy."

Which is Ironic as he has used the last 5 years of bashing Labour for their irresponsible use of public finances, now...suddenly they are all as one

 

[JosephManderley]

At this stage before the Scottish independence referendum, the leave side were ahead in the polls. I'm thinking remain will win 55-45.

Cameron is finished either way, be an election before Christmas.

 

[Stereogatari]

This referendum should never have happened. The average voter has no fucking clue what they're talking about and cannot make an informed decision on this issue.

I'm an intellectual and even I can't make an informed decision on this issue. I can't imagine the mind of the "man on the street".

 

[Maledict]

At this stage before the Scottish independence referendum, the leave side were ahead in the polls. I'm thinking remain will win 55-45.

Cameron is finished either way, be an election before Christmas.

No they weren't. Leave had *one* poll showing them narrowly ahead. We've now had 8 polls showing leave ahead, one showing remain. It's not over yet, but either way it's a nail biter and leave has the edge now.

 

[Tak3n]

It is weird where I live, I can not find one person voting remain (apart from my wife) but this is the East of England

 

[8bit]

At this stage before the Scottish independence referendum, the leave side were ahead in the polls. I'm thinking remain will win 55-45.

Cameron is finished either way, be an election before Christmas.

No man, that was a single poll with a narrow lead the weekend before. This isn't the same.

 

[JosephManderley]

No they weren't. Leave had *one* poll showing them narrowly ahead. We've now had 8 polls showing leave ahead, one showing remain. It's not over yet, but either way it's a nail biter and leave has the edge now.

My memory must be playing tricks on me - I thought leave had the edge a week out, and caused the panicked trip north by the Westminster big guns?

You are right that it could go either way. I think a lot of people who are saying leave now, will change their minds at the last minute when the enormity of the decision sinks in.

 

[ferrasvansen]

It is weird where I live, I can not find one person voting remain (apart from my wife) but this is the East of England

Funny thing, up here in Scotland i couldnt find a single pro union voter outside of my family. I thought it was going to be a certain yes win despite polls making it close. Yet low and behold result was very different from what i saw around me.

 

[danowat]

It is weird where I live, I can not find one person voting remain (apart from my wife) but this is the East of England

There is at least another two in the same area, my wife and me!

 

[Kathian]

Osborne is a total tit. Remain deserve to lose at this point. I mean he's going to cut and raise taxes? He's basically saying tax revenues will drop due to the recession which you know - sure - but as Labour have pointed out now you don't immediately react like this.

Sure it might see some debt short term but that's how you deal with a shallow recession or shock. You don't just panic because you've decided that your leadership ambition is to cut the deficit for the next election. In a totally arbitrary way.

Taxes might go up but so will spending. I mean he could have just gone with that.

These morons arrogantly decided after the Scotland vote that they could turn it up to 100 and win automatically. Did they miss things like the collapse of Scottish Labour?