Fucks sake. I'm still struggling to cope with the 20million Romanians that came here last year like Farage promised.
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Brexit |OT| UK Referendum on EU Membership - 23 June 2016
- Thread starter QuicheFontaine
- Start date
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Fucks sake. I'm still struggling to cope with the 20million Romanians that came here last year like Farage promised.
They did arrive. They're all standing on my street, looking shifty. The milkman can no longer leave milk outside my door.
At least your milkman still delivers milk. Mine delivers beetroot soup now. And he's black. Where is our national identity?!?!?
77 million? so 100% of turkey are coming to Britain, fucks sake, xenophobic right wing media shitebags.
CyclopsRock
Member
But it didn't say they think they'll all come. It says "which would give ALL Turks the option of living in Britain".
Who would turn down the opportunity to come to our GREAT BRITISH ISLES though?
No one.
CyclopsRock
Member
They can have the finest Turkish kebabs in the world here.
Wrestlemania
Banned
The headline:
"EU loophole could see 77 MILLION Turks head to Britain, warn Farage and Johnson"
No, the headline is deliberately written to whip up a frenzy in those bottom feeders who immediately think that 77 million Turks will invade our streets if we don't leave the EU.
As a teenager me and mates would get wasted all night then go on milk runs for some nice cold milk before sleeping the entirety of the remainder of the day.
Why? Because we were teenage dicks...there was probably milk in the fridge.
Can we put forth a referendum to make Acorn leave us?
exmachina64
Banned
I thought you were leading into a A Clockwork Orange reference.
his wayward life is one big A Clockwork Orange reference
Farage and Johnson seem like the Vaudevillians here. I mean, after the entirity of Romania move here, of course all of Turkey would follow.
Welp,
Let's be fair, it's hard to get out when you get to a certain age. It's nice to just go out and listen to a bigot talk for a little while.
Fernando Fernandez
Member
That guy in the front looks like he's just come from the darts.
I tried in the previous referendum
Vote leave and I'm sure I'll be gone one way or another.
Damn it, why didn't I think of that.
Gove is to say something about freeing the UK from its hostage situation and Remain being scaremongerers and all the rest of it.
This has reminded me that he is still my bet to get the Tory leadership, and now I am depressed.
This has reminded me that he is still my bet to get the Tory leadership, and now I am depressed.
I think even Corbyn could beat gove in an election. He's a Victorian villain with a time machine, the policies he'd inflict on the masses free from human rights law and EU employment legislation would be a Gordon Brown dip in electoral chances.
He's already disliked by half the nation and the other half will start hating him again post eu ref.
CyclopsRock
Member
Sure, but that's different to saying "so 100% of turkey are coming to Britain" which was the claim I was contesting.
"Could see" 77 million Turks coming to Britain, "could see"?, really, they "could see" 100% of the Turkish population upsticks and come to the UK?.
It's sensationalist and a purely inflammatory headline designed to give the impression that 77 million Turks will come to Britain if we stay in the EU.
giant_frying_pan
Member
Gove's comments are hilarious in their dissonance given that this is the same man who claimed Scotland leaving the UK would be a boon to Vladimir Putin.
I'm not going to vote 'tactically' to try and drive a 2nd Scotland indy ref sooner rather than later (besides, Scotland would still need the mandate of a high pro-EU vote versus the rest of the UK) but it is unfortunate that many floating [voters] in our referendum are only able to see the duplicitous nature of certain politicians now, rather than before the indy vote.
It's very disappointing to see, yet again, so much negative campaigning on both sides. But I do take some humour in seeing some people using arguments now for exiting the EU that they previously rubbished when applied to a Scottish context (not apples-to-apples in every case, but a great deal of cases).
I'm not going to vote 'tactically' to try and drive a 2nd Scotland indy ref sooner rather than later (besides, Scotland would still need the mandate of a high pro-EU vote versus the rest of the UK) but it is unfortunate that many floating [voters] in our referendum are only able to see the duplicitous nature of certain politicians now, rather than before the indy vote.
It's very disappointing to see, yet again, so much negative campaigning on both sides. But I do take some humour in seeing some people using arguments now for exiting the EU that they previously rubbished when applied to a Scottish context (not apples-to-apples in every case, but a great deal of cases).
Nicktendo86
Member
I've never got the hate for Gove, especially since taking up the justice post. His effort to concentrate on rehabilitation has been good and I hope he continues, in fact I was on jury service recently and a judge at the end of one of my cases went off about how rubbish the old justice sec was but Gove has been doing a good job and many judges like him.
Anyways I'm off on a tangent here. Vote leave
anonymous_abc
Member
I've never got the hate for Gove, especially since taking up the justice post. His effort to concentrate on rehabilitation has been good and I hope he continues, in fact I was on jury service recently and a judge at the end of one of my cases went off about how rubbish the old justice sec was but Gove has been doing a good job and many judges like him.
Anyways I'm off on a tangent here. Vote leave
Welp,
I've never got the hate for Gove, especially since taking up the justice post. His effort to concentrate on rehabilitation has been good and I hope he continues, in fact I was on jury service recently and a judge at the end of one of my cases went off about how rubbish the old justice sec was but Gove has been doing a good job and many judges like him.
Anyways I'm off on a tangent here. Vote leave
I worked with the MOJ - being better than Grayling isn't hard, he lurched from disaster to disaster through the courts, tribunals and prison system. He got rid of longstanding department leads to bring in "fresh thinking" and other nonsense.
Kenneth Clarke ran it well during his short tenure, can't speak for Gove as I had left by the time he was in. Any focus on rehab is to be commended, it doesn't erase other negatives like his heavily centralised curriculum from the 1950s.
nekkid
It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
#TeamLeave
For many reasons, which I can't be bothered to divulge. But the concerns I have about the UK will not be any better by staying in. They'll be no worse, of course, but there's zero chance of things getting better by standing still.
It's a minimal risk (other countries are fine without the EU) and one that I think we should be prepared to take.
Besides which, if we vote to leave I imagine the EU will shit itself and offer us a much better deal than the half-assed one currently on the table.
For many reasons, which I can't be bothered to divulge. But the concerns I have about the UK will not be any better by staying in. They'll be no worse, of course, but there's zero chance of things getting better by standing still.
It's a minimal risk (other countries are fine without the EU) and one that I think we should be prepared to take.
Besides which, if we vote to leave I imagine the EU will shit itself and offer us a much better deal than the half-assed one currently on the table.
Probably not. It seems like the EU leaders are leaning more towards there being no point the UK being in it if they want to leave, which makes sense. Hopefully it doesn't come to that, but I can't see them bending over backwards to keep us if we vote to leave.
nekkid
It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
Maybe so. But from my point of view the outcomes of us voting Leave are better than Remain, whether we end up staying in the EU or not.
I think you are neglecting the fact that the European leaders have also elections to win back home. Also I assume most of them want EU to still be viable. That's not the case if the trade deals outside EU are better than within.
QuicheFontaine
Member
I think anyone who votes Leave with a view to getting a better offer from the EU and then staying in is being extremely reckless. There is no "better deal" - Dave did his best, which admittedly is not much - and came back with a whole lot of nothing that the Vice President of the EU Parliament says "went too far" and which is, in any case, "not legally binding":
If you want to stay, just vote Remain, but do it with your eyes open - there is no "better deal".
If you want to stay, just vote Remain, but do it with your eyes open - there is no "better deal".
Camp Freddie
Member
The idea that a leave vote could be a good haggling strategy is bizarre and dangerous.
The EU were very hostile to Cameron's "Give me my goal or I'm taking my ball home" ultimatum.
EU leaders really don't want this to set a precedent where anyone who fails at EU diplomacy can issue an ultimatum in order to get what they want.
Not only that, but Cameron and others have been very clear that leave will mean leave.
There is no way that Cameron could turn round and say, "I know you all voted to leave, but I think we should wait and maybe have another referendum in the future".
The EU were very hostile to Cameron's "Give me my goal or I'm taking my ball home" ultimatum.
EU leaders really don't want this to set a precedent where anyone who fails at EU diplomacy can issue an ultimatum in order to get what they want.
Not only that, but Cameron and others have been very clear that leave will mean leave.
There is no way that Cameron could turn round and say, "I know you all voted to leave, but I think we should wait and maybe have another referendum in the future".
There's so many angles which the British public aren't observing. The focus seem to be economic and migration when the benefits and demerits are multi facet. For example, security, one of the major reasons for the establishment of the union was in hope that economic integration will force security integration or cross coop integration and to a large extent, yes there's been lots of progress towards that. Once Britain does leave, that blows open a mistrust and sharing military assets among many other things, the issue isn't black and white as most people think
nekkid
It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
You say it's dangerous, but I disagree. I still think it's a viable scenario, but even if it isn't I would still prefer to leave.
If I have to pick 2 of the following 3 scenarios:
A) Remain
B) Vote to leave, but stay with a better deal
C) Leave
I would pick B or C. If I have to only pick one, it would be C.
It's not a game of chicken, it's yet another outcome I would prefer to staying in.
Don't we already heavily collaborate with military and share intelligence with countries outside of the EU? Probably with specific non-EU nations more so than any of the EU nations.
You can't roll back on bloody referendums. It's undemocratic for one aswell as making the whole exercise pointless.
Vote stay or vote leave. There is no scenario where this "better deal" even if it did exist didn't become a huge clusterfuck of the democratic process, politics and society in general.
They certainly couldn't carry the tory party through such a process and I dare say alot of the remain camp would want to stand by the decision made by the public.
I certainly would and I want to stay. This same b.s was about during the scot ref too.
nekkid
It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
On a tangent, if you want an example of undemocratic: having laws and regulations defined by a power we are unable to vote for. That's fairly undemocratic.
That's bullshit. You vote for the European Parliament. You vote for the party that forms the governments who represents UK in EU.
nekkid
It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
And if their say was worth more than essentially guidance, you would be right.
QuicheFontaine
Member
I was trying to say it's reckless for anyone who votes leave but, in their heart of hearts, really wants to stay. Clearly that's not you!
But I maintain my point. I'm almost definitely voting leave, but that's because I want us to leave! Not so that we can then turn back to the rest of the EU and say "Ooh, look at that. Feel like negotiating properly now?". We would get short shrift doing that, and rightly so!
As a final point, this is a problem with referendums generally. No means no and yes means yes - if we vote to stay, then I'm sure that will be held up (despite Dave's supposed opt out to 'ever closer union') as a green light for accelerated integration on the basis that "we voted to stay".
If this ends up as a close Remain, I'm sure lots of Eurosceptics will rue the day the referendum was ever called. Despite wanting "their say" forever, it will be a shot in the foot.
CyclopsRock
Member
We already do quite a lot of pan-European military sharey stuff by dint of a big chunk of the EU also being members of NATO. But the EU have no unified foreign policy and we already have a much better vehicle for military engagement - NATO - than the EU could ever hope to offer without a unified foreign policy. So where's the benefit? Realistically, the sharing of intelligence has basically nil to do with being in the EU.
Nonsense. Every member that is part of an EU body is elected either directly or indirectly by the people.
- The European Parliament is re-elected in its entirety every 5 years. Every country has a designated number of MEPs, based on national populations, and the populations of the different member states elect their MEPs directly.
- The European Council is made up of the heads of state of the various member states. Every member state has representation on the council through their head of state, who, in turn is decided on by the national parliaments, which are directly elected by the people.
- The European Commission, is decided upon by the European Parliament, which appoints its various members, as well as its president. The European Council has input on both of these and may propose commissioners or a president, but the final decision is made by MEPs elected by the national populations.
- Finally, the national governments decide who to send to the European Court of Justice and the Council of Ministers.
I wish there was a cheesy video by the European Parliament that shows the decision making process and how this is not true.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4SdYkYslvs
The point is, new legislation has to be approved by both the European Council (our governments) and the European Parliament. If that doesn't happen even after amendments, the new legislation just doesn't go through.
This. Europe is the gold standard for how to run a democratic supranational organisation. That sceptics have the audacity to pretend it is in some way undemocratic is baffling.
CyclopsRock
Member
Every government member in most of countries in this world is not directly voted by the people. You have the FTPT system that constantly lets a good chunk of the population not represented. You don't vote your head of state. You have a chamber of the parliament that is not voted by the people. So that's quite a snotty "Hmmmmm".
RedSparrows
Member
Indeed. This debate seems, like many, to be argued in terms of concepts as we'd like them, not as they are. What is sovereignty in a world of Trident, NATO, the free market, the House of Lords?
JonathanEx
Member
To be fair, it is very important for us to get away from unelected undemocratic types in Europe.
We have our own in the House of Lords to do that. Europe, stop taking British jobs away from us.
We have our own in the House of Lords to do that. Europe, stop taking British jobs away from us.
Like ever I have no serious point here just being a sarcastic bastard
CyclopsRock
Member
I agree. But the first chap said that shit gets done by people we don't vote for and someone contests this with a list including people we don't vote for. It's representative democracy to the power of two which personally I'm not a fan of but it's OK, but what it definitely isn't is something we vote for.
My point was that EU institutions are not all that different from many of the 'undemocratic' national institutions, so railing against one while accepting the other should seem rather quaint.
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