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[CyclopsRock]

My point was that EU institutions are not all that different from many of the 'undemocratic' national institutions, so railing against one while accepting the other should seem rather quaint.

I'm not sure the word "quaint" makes any sense here, but there's a whole lot more to democracy than elections. However, the poster in question was specifically talking about how they don't like that there are aspects of the EU with power that they can't vote for - not an unreasonable problem to have, and not one negated by the existence of such things at home, either.

 

[Walshicus]

We don't vote for our own government - we vote for parliament and then parliament and the parties themselves select their own leaders and thus the executive according to their own arcane methods...

But I've not seen any of you demanding an elected executive via a presidency or similar.

 

[anonymous_abc]

I'm not sure the word "quaint" makes any sense here, but there's a whole lot more to democracy than elections. However, the poster in question was specifically talking about how they don't like that there are aspects of the EU with power that they can't vote for - not an unreasonable problem to have, and not one negated by the existence of such things at home, either.

Yes, but it still is hypocritical to demand something from one entity and not the other in cases where it would be reasonable to directly compare them.

 

[CyclopsRock]

We don't vote for our own government - we vote for parliament and then parliament and the parties themselves select their own leaders and thus the executive according to their own arcane methods...

But I've not seen any of you demanding an elected executive via a presidency or similar.

But if everyone in the UK voted Labour in 2020, we'd have Corbyn as our PM and McDonnell personally running bombing sorties against Israel. If the entirety of the UK electorate voted for Labour in the European Elections, we could still end up with laws and directives emanating from the EU that run entirely counter to the desires of the Labour party. Despite the arcane cabinet creation process, the UK's voting outcome has a greater connection to the make up of the UK government than the UK's[/] voting outcome has to the various EU seats of power - which makes sense, we aren't the only ones voting. It's not hard to see how the issue of sovereignty differs between the two, though, as a result.

The democracy and sovereignty one isn't exactly an argument that the people in favour of staying in the EU - like myself - can win. The very nature of unions is that of giving up some sovereignty in exchange for whatever benefits that union brings (it's the same with NATO's article 5, trade agreements that fix certain things in place, currency unions etc) The argument to be had is that the benefits the union brings outweigh the drawbacks to the cause of democracy and sovereignty - because it does cause drawbacks in those areas.

Yes, but it still is hypocritical to demand something from one entity and not the other in cases where it would be reasonable to directly compare them.

Maybe they are demanding that

 

[anonymous_abc]

Maybe they are demanding that

Taking the discussion away from the poster here. Yes I am sure most Tory exiters cannot wait to reform the two houses in the UK. [/s]

 

[CyclopsRock]

Taking the discussion away from the poster here. Yes I am sure most Tory exiters cannot wait to reform the two houses in the UK. [/s]

I suspect they aren't, but that doesn't really address the posters point.

 

[Walshicus]

But if all of Europe votes for a Labour-equivalent party we will see those values reflected both in the parliament and the commission.

The disenfranchisement that our own (multi)national parliament imposes on us via FPTP is orders of magnitude more problematic than the Commission being selected and approved by elected legislators.

Regardless, the 'undemocratic' argument is bollocks and dishonest. I've yet to see a single person use it who wanted to improve the system instead of parroting some tripe from the tabloids.

 

[Mr. Sam]

The European Parliament's a red herring, really. It's the commision - as well of the heads of state and cabinet members of each individual country - who are responsible for the real meat and potatoes of EU policy. You can't really make a 1:1 comparison.

I'd argue those in favour of leaving the EU on democracy grounds who don't have a word to say about first past the past are more likely guilty of ignorance than hypocrisy, though I'm just a glass half full kind of guy.

 

[Jasup]

Votewatch released a report about UK's voting record in the council and the European Parliament and what implications Brexit could have.

The press release and full report can be found here:
http://www.votewatch.eu/blog/specia...d-in-the-council-and-the-european-parliament/

Key findings of the report are:

• The UK is the most outvoted Member State in the EU Council. However, it has supported more than 97% of the EU laws adopted in the last 12 years;
• British opposition to EU policies occurred especially on budget, foreign policy and foreign aid issues. Nevertheless, the UK was not the most oppositional government on several important issue areas: internal market, legal affairs, transport, environment, and fisheries;
• Sweden, the Netherlands and Denmark are the UK’s closest allies in the EU Council and would lose an important partner if Brexit occurred;
• The UK has diminished its influence in the European Parliament in recent years, as a result of selfdistancing of some of its own party delegations from the EU’s mainstream political families, as well as due to the results of the latest EU elections in the UK;
• Nevertheless, UK MEPs have captured many powerful agenda-setting positions, such as rapporteurships of key EU legislation and EP committee chairmanships;
• The main losers of Brexit among EU stakeholders are those that promote less regulatory burden for EU businesses and stronger protection of copyright;
• Brexit would also push the remaining EU governments to pay more to the EU.

 

[mrklaw]

How much of this will be down to people trying to understand the complexity of the pros and cons, and how much will be down to the 'leave' people just downplaying every report that comes out as 'scaremongering' and people voting to leave because Cameron is a shit face?

They never should have offered this stupid shit covered olive branch to voters in a desperate attempt to get more votes in the election. (most) people will not vote on the issue, they'll vote because of FUD and that is really worrying.

 

[kavanf1]

One thing I've found very noticeable and starkly different to the Scottish referendum is that in the latter, many companies refused to make a political statement on the impact of staying or leaving the UK (even if internally they did have a position on it). However when it comes to the EU referendum, a lot more companies are being up front and direct about their position, and (from what I've seen, at least) more of them seem to be leaning towards staying in the EU rather than leaving.

When it comes to this kind of vote, I won't deny that this heavily influences my own position. I prefer concrete views based on evidence and research as opposed to scaremongering in either direction, and I know that my own organisation (and others) put a shitload of effort into working out what the better option is. I appreciate that their view will lean heavily towards what's best for industry, not necessarily individuals, so of course I need to factor that in as well. However, I'm inclining toward a stay vote based on what I've read and heard so far.

 

[Hasney]

voting to leave because Cameron is a shit face?

I'm not a fan of Cameron, but I can't see people voting to leave because of Cameron when the opponents are Boris and Farage. Vote against a shitface to make the cuntflaps happy?!

 

[Tosyn_88]

One thing I've found very noticeable and starkly different to the Scottish referendum is that in the latter, many companies refused to make a political statement on the impact of staying or leaving the UK (even if internally they did have a position on it). However when it comes to the EU referendum, a lot more companies are being up front and direct about their position, and (from what I've seen, at least) more of them seem to be leaning towards staying in the EU rather than leaving.

When it comes to this kind of vote, I won't deny that this heavily influences my own position. I prefer concrete views based on evidence and research as opposed to scaremongering in either direction, and I know that my own organisation (and others) put a shitload of effort into working out what the better option is. I appreciate that their view will lean heavily towards what's best for industry, not necessarily individuals, so of course I need to factor that in as well. However, I'm inclining toward a stay vote based on what I've read and heard so far.

I would imagine big business would be terrified of their prospects if an exit does happen but small and start up business would like the idea because of a sense of a chance to compete.

 

[Camp Freddie]

I think businesses tend to be pro-EU if they sell stuff to Europe and anti-EU if they sell primarily in the UK and compete with European companies.

Cameron is a shithead, but... Farage.
And Boris is just Donald Trump with a classical education.

 

[Phantast2k]

I'm currently listening to "Dominic Cummings, Campaign Director, Vote Leave" on the "Subject: The economic and financial costs and benefits of UK's EU membership"
http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/fe18cb0b-fae5-4778-b00f-b05fde360ed6

/What an utter fucking idiot.
//Some summary / comments:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics...risk-uk-warned-politics-live?CMP=share_btn_tw
///I hope the video will be made available afterwards. People favoring Brexit should definitely watch this.

 

[Jimbob Smalls]

I'm currently listening to "Dominic Cummings, Campaign Director, Vote Leave" on the "Subject: The economic and financial costs and benefits of UK's EU membership"
http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/fe18cb0b-fae5-4778-b00f-b05fde360ed6

/What an utter fucking idiot.
//Some summary / comments:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics...risk-uk-warned-politics-live?CMP=share_btn_tw
///I hope the video will be made available afterwards. People favoring Brexit should definitely watch this.

Both sides are talking absolute tripe. What we probably have to do is look at the exaggeration from both sides and accept the reality will be somewhere in the middle.

People from both sides could be defined as "fucking idiots."

 

[Walshicus]

I'm currently listening to "Dominic Cummings, Campaign Director, Vote Leave" on the "Subject: The economic and financial costs and benefits of UK's EU membership"
http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/fe18cb0b-fae5-4778-b00f-b05fde360ed6

/What an utter fucking idiot.
//Some summary / comments:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics...risk-uk-warned-politics-live?CMP=share_btn_tw
///I hope the video will be made available afterwards. People favoring Brexit should definitely watch this.

Oh dear. Well it's not as if any Leavers will be watching that train wreck.

 

[War Peaceman]

Both sides are talking absolute tripe. What we probably have to do is look at the exaggeration from both sides and accept the reality will be somewhere in the middle.

People from both sides could be defined as "fucking idiots."

I notice you didn't actually engage with the comments made in the link, just made vapid both sides proclamations.

 

[Jimbob Smalls]

I notice you didn't actually engage with the comments made in the link, just made vapid both sides proclamations.

Leave: Blah, Blah, So awesome, rule Britannia. Everyone will be loaded, no migrants, £50 million a day. Remain are all deluded liars.

Remain: Blah, Blah, We're all going to die if we leave, get nuked, and be living in cardboard boxes. Leave are all deluded liars.

What did I miss?

 

[War Peaceman]

Leave: Blah, Blah, So awesome, rule Britannia. Everyone will be loaded, no migrants, £50 million a day. Remain are all deluded liars.

Remain: Blah, Blah, We're all going to die if we leave, get nuked, and be living in cardboard boxes. Leave are all deluded liars.

What did I miss?

The director of the leave campaign being an ill-informed half-wit?

You can say that the financial reports are scaremongering, but they are actual forecasts created by serious people (who may be making errors!) to predict something.

Both sides are behaving like children in general, that is true. But you responded to a serious piece of inquiry with nonsense.

 

[Jimbob Smalls]

The director of the leave campaign being an ill-informed half-wit?

You can say that the financial reports are scaremongering, but they are actual forecasts created by serious people (who may be making errors!) to predict something.

Both sides are behaving like children in general, that is true. But you responded to a serious piece of inquiry with nonsense.

There's reports the other way that suggest the opposite. What to believe is anyone's guess.

There's equally decorated professors of economics on both sides of the argument.

 

[Phantast2k]

Both sides are talking absolute tripe. What we probably have to do is look at the exaggeration from both sides and accept the reality will be somewhere in the middle.

People from both sides could be defined as "fucking idiots."

I'm sometimes overly profane when speaking / writing in English. However, that should not stop you from watching said video (it's been recorded and is available under that link).
Make your own judgement based on how the Brexit campaign director fares under scrutiny.

Don't even focus on the person (who acts like a twat when cornered & could very well end up holding an office or advising a political figure in case of a Brexit), but listen to the points brought forward by the MPs and how this person, the brains behind Brexit, deals with them.

This whole thing will shape your future way more than it will mine so you shouldn't just gloss over it.

 

[Jimbob Smalls]

I'm sometimes overly profane when speaking / writing in English. However, that should not stop you from watching said video (it's been recorded and is available under that link).
Make your own judgement based on how the Brexit campaign director fares under scrutiny.

Don't even focus on the person (who acts like a twat when cornered & could very well end up holding an office or advising a political figure in case of a Brexit), but listen to the points brought forward by the MPs and how this person, the brains behind Brexit, deals with them.

This whole thing will shape your future way more than it will mine so you shouldn't just gloss over it.

Look at the insane remain case Osborne pitched the other day.

Figures out of his ass that hold as much water as a sieve.

 

[Ding-Ding]

The director of the leave campaign being an ill-informed half-wit?

You can say that the financial reports are scaremongering, but they are actual forecasts created by serious people (who may be making errors!) to predict something.

Both sides are behaving like children in general, that is true. But you responded to a serious piece of inquiry with nonsense.

Fraid not. If you are ever likely to meet a government economist, they would tell you the same thing they told me. "We dont have a clue"

The numbers the government are putting out are politically lead. The economists were told the parameters of an exit for their recent report, economists crunched the numbers, then the politicians decided to either use them or set new parameters. My understanding is there was alot of bouncing between politicians and treasury economists before the recent publications findings were 'agreed'

Any figures that may resemble the truth will only be seen after negotiations for an exit has been completed. Any numbers before that are nothing but nonsense (from either side)

 

[KingSnake]

Fraid not. If you are ever likely to meet a government economist, they would tell you the same thing they told me. "We dont have a clue"

The numbers the government are putting out are politically lead. The economists were told the parameters of an exit for their recent report, economists crunched the numbers, then the politicians decided to either use them or set new parameters. My understanding is there was alot of bouncing between politicians and treasury economists before the recent publications findings were 'agreed'

Any figures that may resemble the truth will only be seen after negotiations for an exit has been completed. Any numbers before that are nothing but nonsense (from either side)

You do realize that's how macroeconomic prognosis works, right? You estimate a set of parameters based on which you do the rest of the calculation. The yearly budget of a country is done like this. Even companies, like banks, use the set of macroeconomic indicators estimated by the national banks, statistic institutes, the assumptions of the yearly budget and so on. And usually build at least a worst case scenario and a most probable scenario.

 

[Ding-Ding]

You do realize that's how macroeconomic prognosis works, right? You estimate a set of parameters based on which you do the rest of the calculation. The yearly budget of a country is done like this. Even companies, like banks, use the set of macroeconomic indicators estimated by the national banks, statistic institutes, the assumptions of the yearly budget and so on. And usually build at least a worst case scenario and a most probable scenario.

You are completely missing the point, which is very simple. The government wanted a set of figures to publish and the parameters kept changing until the two were in the same ballpark

 

[KingSnake]

You are completely missing the point, which is very simple. The government wanted a set of figures to publish and the parameters kept changing until the two were in the same ballpark

You have studies from the big 4, from banks, from other companies. Even ignoring the government official communication you have plenty of interesting things to read regarding the impact of the brexit.

Also a source for your claims would be greatly appreciated.

 

[War Peaceman]

To be fair the government did want a paper that legitimised their belief that staying in the EU was economically advantageous, but you also must remember that they want to remain in the EU because they believe it to be economically advantageous. To say it is biased is redundant; of course it is. The point is that they have a forecast, they have a prediction. They have given consideration to the impact. It would be impossible to be 100% correct, these predictions never are. But they demonstrate that a lot more serious thought has gone into it than those who claim that free trade with the EU would continue. It is naive to think that there won't be repercussions from leaving.

 

[Rubbish King]

To be fair the government did want a paper that legitimised their belief that staying in the EU was economically advantageous, but you also must remember that they want to remain in the EU because they believe it to be economically advantageous. To say it is biased is redundant; of course it is. The point is that they have a forecast, they have a prediction. They have given consideration to the impact. It would be impossible to be 100% correct, these predictions never are. But they demonstrate that a lot more serious thought has gone into it than those who claim that free trade with the EU would continue. It is naive to think that there won't be repercussions from leaving.

what

 

[Jimbob Smalls]

what

Anything either remain or leave say is biased, or lies.

 

[CyclopsRock]

I posted the little The Times clippet earlier, but the point wasn't to say "here's our GDP in 20 years with and without the EU", it was to say " here's the difference". The comparison given was of a person who drinks a can of coke a day vs them not drinking a can of coke a day. The Doctor might not be able to tell them how much they'll weigh in both scenarios - there are so many other variables - but the impact of the can of coke is easier to ascertain and doesn't rely on the actual estimates being correct.

Obviously this doesn't mean his analysis is correct, but I think a lot of people are criticising it for something that it actually isn't doing.

 

[Kathian]

The amount of crap being spouted from both ends is just going to affect turnout. Leave has no argument left with its muddled language about renegotiation - how did an issue driven by immigration become driven by 'sovereignty' exactly? Meanwhile like Labour in the GE; Tories are learning that backing some tactics to win one component election allows your enemies to use the same against you at the next.

 

[Nicktendo86]

The latest polls show heavy support for remain, between 16-20% lead. As I've said all along, leave have no chance whatsoever. A collation of people who hate each other fighting the government which can send propaganda leaflets to every household and release dodgy treasury reports. Andrew Neil did a great job of taking that report apart yesterday by the way.

I've read a poll in Sweden suggesting that a slim majority would support leaving the EU if Britain did, that could be a possible narrative to take for leave, paint a picture of leading others out forging a new trade block without the issues of the EU. But I'm not seeing a coherent campaign from vote leave so they will probably just continue as they are.

 

[anonymous_abc]

The latest polls show heavy support for remain, between 16-20% lead. As I've said all along, leave have no chance whatsoever. A collation of people who hate each other fighting the government which can send propaganda leaflets to every household and release dodgy treasury reports. Andrew Neil did a great job of taking that report apart yesterday by the way.

I've read a poll in Sweden suggesting that a slim majority would support leaving the EU if Britain did, that could be a possible narrative to take for leave, paint a picture of leading others out forging a new trade block without the issues of the EU. But I'm not seeing a coherent campaign from vote leave so they will probably just continue as they are.

Yes leave the EU to form EEC reloaded. That will go spiffing

 

[Nicktendo86]

Yes leave the EU to form EEC reloaded. That will go spiffing

Why not? The principle reason people give for voting remain is the economy, no one has a problem with being part of a trade bloc. Having that without a political union could be something worth trying to sell.

 

[Walshicus]

Why not? The principle reason people give for voting remain is the economy, no one has a problem with being part of a trade bloc. Having that without a political union could be something worth trying to sell.

Because the meat of what the "free traders" want is the Single Market. A Single Market in goods and service and labour. But that's meaningless and dangerously undemocratic without political union.

 

[Roberto Larcos]

I'm currently listening to "Dominic Cummings, Campaign Director, Vote Leave" on the "Subject: The economic and financial costs and benefits of UK's EU membership"
http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/fe18cb0b-fae5-4778-b00f-b05fde360ed6

/What an utter fucking idiot.
//Some summary / comments:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics...risk-uk-warned-politics-live?CMP=share_btn_tw
///I hope the video will be made available afterwards. People favoring Brexit should definitely watch this.

Both sides are talking absolute tripe. What we probably have to do is look at the exaggeration from both sides and accept the reality will be somewhere in the middle.

People from both sides could be defined as "fucking idiots."

Oh dear. Well it's not as if any Leavers will be watching that train wreck.

15 minutes of the train wreck.

 

[KingSnake]

15 minutes of the train wreck.

A fascinating train wreck indeed.

 

[anonymous_abc]

15 minutes of the train wreck.

Painful.
Yes Governmental Finances work just your savings account at the high street bank.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

The latest polls show heavy support for remain, between 16-20% lead. As I've said all along, leave have no chance whatsoever. A collation of people who hate each other fighting the government which can send propaganda leaflets to every household and release dodgy treasury reports. Andrew Neil did a great job of taking that report apart yesterday by the way.

I've read a poll in Sweden suggesting that a slim majority would support leaving the EU if Britain did, that could be a possible narrative to take for leave, paint a picture of leading others out forging a new trade block without the issues of the EU. But I'm not seeing a coherent campaign from vote leave so they will probably just continue as they are.

Twenty percent lead?? Which polls are you looking at?

 

[Camp Freddie]

15 minutes of the train wreck.

You know those episodes of Dragons Den, where they ask someone to explain their ridiculously inflated company valuation?
This looks like a low-budget version of that.

The Remain group does some dodgy stuff with figures too (e.g. dividing their estimates to give a "cost per household" figure, despite the vast majority of tax revenues not coming from taxes on household income/spending).
Still, it's not as egregious as ignoring all EU investment in the UK, and especially ignoring the "rebate" that never actually leave's the UK's economy.
It's like me complaining about the cost of my mortgage, without taking into account the value of the house I receive at the end of it.

That Leave leaflet that uses the NHS logo is a really scummy move.

 

[Frankfurter]

15 minutes of the train wreck.

He just didn't wanna stop using that 19.1 billion figure...

 

[Roberto Larcos]

He just didn't wanna stop using that 19.1 billion figure...

Thing is, the gross figure still sounds like an awful lot to the average voter. Why not just embrace that figure? Why invite criticism like this?

 

[Walshicus]

Twenty percent lead?? Which polls are you looking at?

Consultancy firm we use at work is saying Brit-in's a dead cert. But I'm not prepared to believe that until I see the results. Things rarely go the way I want in politics when I'm optimistic, so pessimism serves me well.

 

[Jackpot]

Leave: Blah, Blah, So awesome, rule Britannia. Everyone will be loaded, no migrants, £50 million a day. Remain are all deluded liars.

Remain: Blah, Blah, We're all going to die if we leave, get nuked, and be living in cardboard boxes. Leave are all deluded liars.

What did I miss?

So you're actively refusing to read the link you're responding to?

 

[War Peaceman]

what

Almost everything is biased. That's how things work when there are shades of grey. This is particularly apt when you are describing forecasts which require leaps of faith. Saying something is biased is a worthless description. If you disagree with the brexit costs, articulate why, don't just dismiss it on the basis of it being biased.(not directed at you specifically)

So you're actively refusing to read the link you're responding to?

Yup he is.

 

[Mac@NeoGAF]

Consultancy firm we use at work is saying Brit-in's a dead cert. But I'm not prepared to believe that until I see the results. Things rarely go the way I want in politics when I'm optimistic, so pessimism serves me well.

There was never any real chance of a Brexit, it's just noise, I want to leave but I'm also realistic in knowing that it isn't going to happen.

..and that's fine, I can accept it and get on with my life.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Consultancy firm we use at work is saying Brit-in's a dead cert. But I'm not prepared to believe that until I see the results. Things rarely go the way I want in politics when I'm optimistic, so pessimism serves me well.

That's as may be, but when someone says "the polls are saying" I'd like to see them really.

I'm obsessively checking the polls every day at the moment and I haven't seen anything near a twenty point lead. Most poll-of-polls have a one or two point gap between leave and remain (whatukthinks and the FT have it on leave 48, remain 52).

 

[Jezbollah]

Yeah I think after the GE we're all taking the polling with a big pinch of salt right now..

 

[Jimbob Smalls]

So you're actively refusing to read the link you're responding to?

I've read it. Bit difficult as I couldn't stop yawning and my eyes were watery.