Any Questions
Member
Not sure... Plastic money. Hmmmmmm... Will see
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BritGAF |OT6| Dark Souls? More like Arse Holes
- Thread starter JonathanEx
- Start date
Not sure... Plastic money. Hmmmmmm... Will see
Pancakes R Us
Member
Good luck. Make sure you invite us round for a cuppa once you're all settled. I'll bring some biscuits.
Dangerblade
Member
Haha thanks. Will do.
Went well actually. Only took 2 full cars to transport most everything. Sorted out a sofa and bed for delivery on Monday. Potentially have a free bookshelf from Gumtree (my new favourite website). Now configuring my new laptop and about to order takeaway. Life is good.
Oh and if anybody in BritGAF fancies collecting (from Bristol) a load of Mega Drive, PS1, PS2, PSP and PS3 games then shoot me a message and I'll put a list of games together. Can't be bothered to sell on eBay, would rather just get rid of as job lots for less money. Cheers pals.
Went well actually. Only took 2 full cars to transport most everything. Sorted out a sofa and bed for delivery on Monday. Potentially have a free bookshelf from Gumtree (my new favourite website). Now configuring my new laptop and about to order takeaway. Life is good.
Oh and if anybody in BritGAF fancies collecting (from Bristol) a load of Mega Drive, PS1, PS2, PSP and PS3 games then shoot me a message and I'll put a list of games together. Can't be bothered to sell on eBay, would rather just get rid of as job lots for less money. Cheers pals.
Musha_Soturi
Member
Freecycle is also a good website for getting free furniture and stuff as I am recently discovering
Nerdkiller
Membeur
DAMN! If only I wasn't a sea away.
Dangerblade
Member
Yeah same with that place! Some really generous folk around.
Decided to list all the PSP games on eBay. Depending on how that goes I might do the same with the rest of it, bit by bit.
Sofa and bed all sorted. 3 hours today putting that all together! Looks good now though. Broadband being activated tomorrow. Still waiting for the electric company to get back to me regarding my account, c'mon dudes, I want to give you money. Got a small dining table and chairs coming on Wednesday as (another) present from my parents. Less stressed now, more excited.
I will invite you all around for drinks when I'm more settled. Maybe. >_>
Messofanego
Banned
What's the best messenger bag I can get for less than £50? I don't trust Amazon ratings.
Anyone here flying out to E3 this weekend? Donkey_Show? You still post here?
England playing catchup to Scotland as always.
England playing catchup to Scotland as always.
So, obviously, we have the big referendum coming up. I feel like I should be more interested and involved but, honestly, I know next to nothing about politics or why we should - or shouldn't - stay in the EU. Mainly because all the campaigners are going through the thesaurus and picking out the fanciest-sounding words, not really taking into consideration that Everyday Joe has no idea what any of it means. Can someone kindly break it down in to a really simple man's terms and give me the three key reasons for why we should or shouldn't stay in the EU? I'd really appreciate it.
phisheep
NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
I'll give it a go. There are three main arguments, and one extra that nobody much is talking about.
1) The economy
- LEAVE says we are spending loads to the EU and we can save all that cost and spend it on something better
- REMAIN says the amount we are spending isn't very much as a proportion of GDP and membership is worth the cost in terms of trade etc
- I SAY that Leave are talking out of their arses on this one, because if you work it all out we wouldn't end up with any "spare cash"
2) Sovereignty
- LEAVE says we should make all our own laws to suit ourselves and not have whatever vast percent of our laws made in Brussels
- REMAIN says that actually those laws from Brussels underpin a lot of our worker protection, and consumer rights, and aid trade
- I SAY this is a bit of a nothing argument, as nobody on the Leave side has said which laws they would change - so we do not know what we would be letting ourselves in for
3) Immigration
- LEAVE says that outside the EU we'll be able to control entry and reduce immigration
- REMAIN says that actually immigration is a Good Thing and immigrants benefit the economy
- I SAY if you want to massively increase immigration, then vote Leave, as then everybody will try to come in all at once before we shut the door
4) Short term risk and political turmoil
- I SAY that if we vote Leave, we are going to get around a decade of political infighting about who is in charge, what we want to negotiate, failing to negotiate that, two or three general elections about nothing but Europe, and basically lose track of doing anything else until about 2025. And in the meantime, because markets and businesses don't like uncertainty, the exchange rate, the stock market and the employment rate will all tank.
Mind you, I'm possibly biased.
No surprises that you've posted the most reasoned and agreeable thing I've read about this issue in a long while.
I just got my postal vote through today. God I hope we don't leave (my family are largely very pro Brexit worryingly)
War Peaceman
You're a big guy.
That was my reaction too!
Musha_Soturi
Member
Agreed, phisheep is the word of reason as always.
My parents and the bloke's parents are also vote leave, I think it's possibly a generational thing. But then I've also seen a couple of younger people also vote leave, which confuses me. Fwiw we're both vote remain, because I believe it's the best choice for me, the country, and the world
We don't agree on much, Mike, but I'm with you on this. Phisheep broke it down in to terms that made sense. Short, quick, bullet points that get the point across easily. Why the campaigners didn't do this to begin with is beyond me. It helped clear a lot up. I was obviously veering more towards remaining in the EU before today, but this cements the vote for me. We gain nothing, and lose pretty much everything, by leaving.
phisheep
NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Do us all a favour (I mean really, all of us a favour), and persuade them otherwise!
I'm sufficiently worried about the impact of a Leave vote that I'm tackling everyone I meet about it - customers in the shop, people on the street, tellers at my bank etc etc. Plus GAF of course. It's only me and it's one step at a time, but I feel I've got to push it as hard as I can. But, goodness, I'll be glad when it's all over.
I'm not sure it is a generational thing though. Hell, I'm old enough to be your parents, most of you.
Don't know if anyone caught the shitshow of a debate on ITV, but honestly, both sides came across as terrible. I feel genuinely sorry for anyone who wanted to watch that and try and gain some education on any of the key matters.
I'm pretty torn on this. On the one hand, i feel like having a referendum is actually fucking stupid, since it's obvious there are a lot of voters who quite clearly don't get the basic arguments for either side, let alone want to get into the detailed economics. On the other hand, would I trust any of the fuckheads I saw on to tonight to make an informed decision on my behalf? Probably not.
I'm pretty torn on this. On the one hand, i feel like having a referendum is actually fucking stupid, since it's obvious there are a lot of voters who quite clearly don't get the basic arguments for either side, let alone want to get into the detailed economics. On the other hand, would I trust any of the fuckheads I saw on to tonight to make an informed decision on my behalf? Probably not.
trust me it's not happening - my family are lovely people, mostly, but they're pretty unmovable in their opinions
I don't think they really respect my political opinions, either.
phisheep
NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Ah well. Just have to neutralise 'em by persuading a couple of other people instead.
QuicheFontaine for one ...
Any Questions
Member
That about sums it up. However I do feel that Europe needs to change its culture too. Even if folks are frustrated for the right or wrong reasons... we can't ignore the fact that people are alienated.
I want to remain but we need to change the way Europe is run. I also don't see that happening much until at least 2025 too.
FantasticMrSnake
Member
Did anyone else stayed up to watch Sony's conference and now is having a really slow day at work?
Dunno if anyone wants to watch Sony unspoiled, but here's a Google Sheet archiving all the conferences, livestreams , etc.]
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...y8y9ip2DVUY5IkrAILhtKEICk/edit#gid=1615982254
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...y8y9ip2DVUY5IkrAILhtKEICk/edit#gid=1615982254
Musha_Soturi
Member
I have tried, but my mum and step dad are Daily Mail readers so there's not much hope. My Mum has even been sharing links on fb for Vote Leave propaganda. I've spoken to lots of other people and most people I know are Remain.
pretty much. red bull in one hand and loud music in my ears.
Least I've got something vaguely interesting to do.
Conference was ok. better than MS but still kinda ehhh in parts. I've had my dream game realised
Shenmue 3
phisheep
NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Well so far I think I've managed to persuade about a dozen Leave voters to vote Remain instead. That's real-life people as opposed to GAF - I just can't tell about you lot.
This time next week we should know the answer.
Fingers crossed. Now, it's about time I nipped over to the Brexit thread and dreamed up another argument.
This time next week we should know the answer.
Fingers crossed. Now, it's about time I nipped over to the Brexit thread and dreamed up another argument.
what technique do you use to accomplish this magic? Because I've not had any success at all.Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Having a Law degree might help.
It would be a handy trick to know. I know of at least five people (in real-life, not online) who are adament we leave the EU. If I could somehow persuade them to vote remain, then I'd feel like I've accomplished something good in life.
phisheep
NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
I am *very* persuasive in real life!
Can give some tips though.
Key thing is to first listen very carefully to what their concerns are - prod a bit to clarify things, but don't out right rebut straight away. Just nod a lot.
Then pick on just one major concern and chat around it, bringing out evidence along the way (but what would it be like if ..., funnily enough I checked that the other day and it doesn't sound right ..., but I don't understand how that would be better if we left ...).
Let them feel they are controlling the conversation. You don't want to be telling them things, you want them to feel they have changed their own minds.
It is slow and somewhat Socratic, but it works.
Musha_Soturi
Member
I found out this week that about half my colleagues are vote leave. These are young, fairly intelligent people. I asked them why and the answer was mostly quite vague, but along the lines of well the country's gone shit innit, won't get better if we stay so we might as well leave. I said what I knew about the whole situation and two of them ended up saying they were a bit more unsure/on the fence now and needed to read more into it so I guess that's something. But I really am genuinely worried that Leave might win.
The good thing is that people will know more about the EU then they will have otherwise done so.
Even I myself am learning a thing or two about the EU. And but then again I don't care that I can only just about name one EC commissioners from the UK.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Even if the Leave vote does win, is it a certainty we will? Is it binding?
Not sure how true this is, but I was chatting to someone yesterday who said Sweden went through a similar referendum and voted Leave/Not to join. Apparently, their government basically said "Thanks for letting us know" and went ahead and stayed with/joined the EU anyway.
Edit: Nope. Just checked. Apparently that was bollocks.
Not sure how true this is, but I was chatting to someone yesterday who said Sweden went through a similar referendum and voted Leave/Not to join. Apparently, their government basically said "Thanks for letting us know" and went ahead and stayed with/joined the EU anyway.
Edit: Nope. Just checked. Apparently that was bollocks.
There is no certainty in politics. But I think we have to work on the balance of probability that we would be leaving.
dapperbandit
Banned
Someone tried to convince me last night over cocktails but their principle arguments were lacklustre. Full disclosure, neither of us made appeals to democracy or the ability to trade etc
His key points were:
A) If we vote to leave it will encourage other nations to leave and further destabilize the continent.
B) Without a political union to bind nations on the continent together we (Europeans) will inevitably go to war again. At this point he made several appeals to history.
C) The EU encourages multiculturalism and diversity of peoples and culture. He said he would rather maintain this ethos than throw it away.
***
Now, to me the most convincing argument he had was point A). Brexit could encourage other nations to leave. I don't see this as an intrinsically bad thing. I suspect (of course I don't know) that the EU would be healthier and more stable overall if it was downsized and did not include fledgling states like Greece. If other countries face increased pressure to leave it's up to the EU and EU friendly political parties engage with that sense of discontent. I feel this topic is really a separate argument however and its not Britain's responsibility to ensure the survival of the EU.
B) It's possible but unlikely. If something happens it'll happen with Russia and NATO isn't going anywhere.
C) I pointed out that he's arguing in favour of multiculturalism etc as an abstraction when it already exists in reality and isn't going anywhere. We already have diversity, if the country votes to leave then millions of people are not going to disappear.
TL;DR
Come at me phisheep I'll hook u in the gabber m8
His key points were:
A) If we vote to leave it will encourage other nations to leave and further destabilize the continent.
B) Without a political union to bind nations on the continent together we (Europeans) will inevitably go to war again. At this point he made several appeals to history.
C) The EU encourages multiculturalism and diversity of peoples and culture. He said he would rather maintain this ethos than throw it away.
***
Now, to me the most convincing argument he had was point A). Brexit could encourage other nations to leave. I don't see this as an intrinsically bad thing. I suspect (of course I don't know) that the EU would be healthier and more stable overall if it was downsized and did not include fledgling states like Greece. If other countries face increased pressure to leave it's up to the EU and EU friendly political parties engage with that sense of discontent. I feel this topic is really a separate argument however and its not Britain's responsibility to ensure the survival of the EU.
B) It's possible but unlikely. If something happens it'll happen with Russia and NATO isn't going anywhere.
C) I pointed out that he's arguing in favour of multiculturalism etc as an abstraction when it already exists in reality and isn't going anywhere. We already have diversity, if the country votes to leave then millions of people are not going to disappear.
TL;DR
Come at me phisheep I'll hook u in the gabber m8
phisheep
NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
You're kind of assuming it would be the poorer nations that sought to leave, when actually it is the other way round. Like us. And if enough of the net contributors go you're left with an under-resourced eastern bloc whose biggest trading partner is Russia, and we know how that story ends. So, yes, I think he has a point.
Edit: Also, it may not be Britain's responsibility to ensure the survival of the EU. But it is definitely in our interests.
Comes down to the same point as A really.
Like you, I don't see this as a particularly strong argument on either side, except possibly as a counter to xenophobia.
Ouch.
It's funny reading some of things phisheep was writing, and I just faced a similar quandary.
My mother was asking about the referendum. And the quandary being that she is a first generation immigrant, english is her second language, and brexit is quite a complicated affair. So my conversation revolved around trying to get her opinion to the ballot - even if potentially that means a vote to leave. After that assessment I could then judge and inform her which way she ought to vote. That's the way to do it isn't it? I did feel a bit uneasy, considering my bias, but democracy starts with conversation. And to abuse my position would have been godawful unethical.
My brother was there and he was just muddying the waters and generally pissing about.
I mean I needn't have worried, my mum is like a goody two shoes to the point of vomiting.
The following is of course paraphrasing, we had our conversation mostly in her native tongue.
Ashes: What are your feelings on immigration mum?
Mum: We're one of richest countries in the world, no? All people should have the opportunity this country has to offer.
I wasn't sure where to turn next because I'm not sure how to explain European politics so I kind of explained how the EU formed and then how it had added lots of new laws that is beneficial to some industries in some countries and not so beneficial to other industries in other countries.
Mum: Well, not everyone will be happy whatever the outcome. But I do think we should all work closer together. The whole world should work together to improve all our lives. I want us to work closer with Germany and France and help Greece and Poland more.
I'm not sure why she thinks we should help Poland. And we talked a bit more, but on the whole I'm guessing her political outlook - without outside interference - more naturally inclines with Remain. So that's what I told her to vote for.
edit: removed debate I had with sister the other day. She's not here to defend her views. So it's unfair.
My mother was asking about the referendum. And the quandary being that she is a first generation immigrant, english is her second language, and brexit is quite a complicated affair. So my conversation revolved around trying to get her opinion to the ballot - even if potentially that means a vote to leave. After that assessment I could then judge and inform her which way she ought to vote. That's the way to do it isn't it? I did feel a bit uneasy, considering my bias, but democracy starts with conversation. And to abuse my position would have been godawful unethical.
My brother was there and he was just muddying the waters and generally pissing about.
I mean I needn't have worried, my mum is like a goody two shoes to the point of vomiting.
The following is of course paraphrasing, we had our conversation mostly in her native tongue.
Ashes: What are your feelings on immigration mum?
Mum: We're one of richest countries in the world, no? All people should have the opportunity this country has to offer.
I wasn't sure where to turn next because I'm not sure how to explain European politics so I kind of explained how the EU formed and then how it had added lots of new laws that is beneficial to some industries in some countries and not so beneficial to other industries in other countries.
Mum: Well, not everyone will be happy whatever the outcome. But I do think we should all work closer together. The whole world should work together to improve all our lives. I want us to work closer with Germany and France and help Greece and Poland more.
I'm not sure why she thinks we should help Poland. And we talked a bit more, but on the whole I'm guessing her political outlook - without outside interference - more naturally inclines with Remain. So that's what I told her to vote for.
edit: removed debate I had with sister the other day. She's not here to defend her views. So it's unfair.
phisheep
NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Sounds like a good job well done, Ashes.
I'm inclined to agree with your mother on immigration. After all, I'd much rather live somewhere that people want to come to over somewhere they want to run away from.
As for why we should help Poland? Well, why not for starters. And Poland did a lot to help us in the war and has suffered a lot then and since. Why not indeed.
I'm inclined to agree with your mother on immigration. After all, I'd much rather live somewhere that people want to come to over somewhere they want to run away from.
As for why we should help Poland? Well, why not for starters. And Poland did a lot to help us in the war and has suffered a lot then and since. Why not indeed.
phisheep
NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Probably - like me - just finds it easier to remember than all the other ones with similar-sounding names and unmemorable capital cities.
Yes, I know that sounds really bad, but I'm hopeless at remembering which is which.
Dangerblade
Member
I watched Eden Lake last night. Pretty fucking brutal. Hopeless, grim movie. Not quite Martyrs levels of doom, but close.
2 weeks now in my flat, all by myself. So good
2 weeks now in my flat, all by myself. So good
Summer Haze
Banned
This summer is pissing me off. It's consistently reaching high teens/early 20's here in Bham everyday...but there's cloud cover ruining it all. And the rain, ffs don't get me started. And before I know it Winter will be here and I'll be depressed again. Ugh.
Mate, I had to go to University hospital in Coventry today. Sat in the waiting room waiting to be seen, with that huge glass roof with the sun glaring through - I felt like an ant being tortured with a magnifying glass.
Any Questions
Member
Its the best fucking place on earth mate. That help?
Musha_Soturi
Member
London or Manchester. Everywhere else sucks.