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[Lord Fagan]

Dafuq outta here with those dog treats, man.

Maybe if you gave your workers one of your hot shit cars after three years, that might be something an adult employee would consider a worthwhile incentive not to join a union, but goddamn frozen yogurt?

Why don't you just throw fucking pennies at them and tell them a cool story about bootstraps?

I love Musk's tech, but he doesn't understand shit about a life outside a hypercomfortable, sycophantic bubble. Hope they fix this, there's nothing wrong with giving a shit about employees that afford him that bubble. In fact, it's actually noble.

 

[Glix]

I've been ambivalent on unions in the past, but the thread today about companies being unwilling to train up their employees made up my mind in favor of unions

Some unions got corrupt or messed up badly but no one should be ambivilent.

Employers take advantage of employees. Since forever.

Even if i worked for a good small company with a great owner i would want to be protected. a business owners personal financial situation can change (divorce, addiction, bad investment, etc) and all of a sudden they have to take advantage of their employees.

At a large company? Hahahahahahah. You are nothing to them.

 

[jtb]

The cult of Musk is insane to me.

 

[bsp]

Dafuq outta here with those dog treats, man.

Maybe if you gave your workers one of your hot shit cars after three years, that might be something an adult employee would consider a worthwhile incentive not to join a union, but goddamn frozen yogurt?

Why don't you just throw fucking pennies at them and tell them a cool story about bootstraps?

I love Musk's tech, but he doesn't understand shit about a life outside a hypercomfortable, sycophantic bubble. Hope they fix this, there's nothing wrong with giving a shit about employees that afford him that bubble. In fact, it's actually noble.

You should maybe read the full article. He isn't throwing dog treats in lieu of payment or days off or anything.

 

[Slayven]

Silicon Valley Techno libertarians are the worse

 

[Poppy]

As someone who's talked to people who used to work for SpaceX, yeah the hours he expects are ridiculous. It is basically impossible to do anything but work when your working at SpaceX, which rules out taking care of your family or even yourself. I'd assume Tesla is pretty similar.

i was friends with one of the engineers at spaceX in high school, i havent talked to him like...at all since then. wonder how he is managing dealing with all those expectations, maybe we will connect again sometime

 

[Pagusas]

Why does it have to be UAW, who's interest wouldn't be with the Teala employees. Cant they form their own union?

 

[sphagnum]

The cult of Musk is insane to me.

Technocratic liberals and libertarians love their masters of industry.

 

[IrishNinja]

Years ago I opened up a new business with a fellow employee who is what they call a "salt", which is an undercover union organizer. The way he lied and the tactics he used to take advantage of our poor English speaking coworkers was pathetic. He did not care about the well being of any of us, just the fact he nailed down the contract in order to get our dues for the union he represented. Once our contracted was negotiated he left and moved to whatever new place was opening up.

I definitely think unions are important, but the fact is there are unions out there who operate as a business who profit from dues.

i hear these stories & i get it, that's really shitty and ive no doubt it happens in lots of places

but having worked a few jobs where strong unions were your lifeblood, it's always strange to me to see sites like this where it's said the average poster leans left (on certain issues, to be fair) just outright stands against unions.

it's puzzling, and my assumption is either a) their field doesn't have/use them as much or b) they're enjoying the benefits of past union struggles without knowing it, as many do

Silicon Valley Techno libertarians are the worse

amen
i imagine the overlap with well paid white coders & ayn rand fans is fairly high

 

[Lord Fagan]

You should maybe read the full article. He isn't throwing dog treats in lieu of payment or days off or anything.

I did read the article. It's about a company CEO doing damage control for ongoing complaints about working conditions by shitting on unions and acting like incoming carnival attractions in his factory is some kind of solution.

He's gotta offer them something better than what a union offers, otherwise of course these people are gonna complain and want to join a union.

 

[subrock]

Have you read the OP? Or seen his stance on Trump and his cabinet specifically?

I read the article this morning on Electrek. I don't really see how it makes him a piece of shit that can suck a dick. He owns a factory, he doesn't want it to unionize because it will likely make his workers more expensive and less flexible. He has every right to defend that either through messaging or veiled threats (ie, telling everyone that things are great and threatening that that might not always be the case), or by improving conditions such that UAW doesn't have a leg to stand on. As pointed out by someone else in this thread, this isn't purely about conditions and compensation, UAW is a GM union and it behooves them to slow down Tesla.

I have also closely followed his position on Trump's advisory council. I'm not as quick as you to throw him under the bus for that, as is seems like he is there asking for a carbon tax and equal play for renewables. Trump has the power to deal a mortal blow to all of Musk's companies, so playing ball is a wise move in my opinion.

 

[bsp]

I did read the article. It's about a company CEO doing damage control for ongoing complaints about working conditions by shitting on unions and acting like incoming carnival attractions in his factory is some kind of solution.

He's gotta offer them something better than what a union offers, otherwise of course these people are gonna complain and want to join a union.

The carnival attractions are not positioned or offered as a solution. He responded to the primary points of work hours and pay, and assuming that data is correct (I'd love to see an industry watchdog review), they are sufficient. He included one little paragraph at the end of the email mentioning extra fun things he would like to add to the factory; they were not at all offered as the solution to worker complaints.

 

[Nairume]

Why does it have to be UAW, who's interest wouldn't be with the Teala employees. Cant they form their own union?

They could form their own union and certainly benefit from being more in control of their organization, but joining the UAW would give them more clout and access to an already established infrastructure and all the connections that entails.

 

[Mutant]

Not surprising. The rich are not your friends when it comes to this.

 

[Madness]

The hatred in America for labor unions is sad.

Strong unions are an important part of why life is so good in Scandinavia.

There has to be a fair balance between CEO power and worker power.

Too strong unions and you get massive youth unemployment and constant strikes.

Too strong CEOs and you get America with its insane divide between rich and poor.

https://www.bcgperspectives.com/con...ing_why_decisive_action_needed_now/?chapter=2

Let's see how good life in Scandinavia is as manufacturing actually keeps declining and fewer and fewer jobs are available with a massive influx of migrants etc. Automation is only increasing as well. Plus you cannot compare the two areas at all. Compare the union and labor force and manufacturing of the US with China, India, Brazil, Russia and the UK etc.

There is no hatred of unions in the US and the US has some of the worlds oldest organized unions. Elon Musk is just trying to prevent it because Tesla is on the precipice. If they cannot deliver with the Model 3 en masse they are in trouble, if they unionize, it cuts into his profits and forces him to pay more, cut hours, eat into profits. Let's see what happens. Let's also not pretend like the UAW union isn't also largely responsible for a decline in US car manufacturing as GM and Ford and Chrysler all struggled with their demands while Japan and Germany soared etc. You do have a good point, there needs to be balance.

 

[danthefan]

The carnival attractions are not positioned or offered as a solution. He responded to the primary points of work hours and pay, and assuming that data is correct (I'd love to see an industry watchdog review), they are sufficient. He included one little paragraph at the end of the email mentioning extra fun things he would like to add to the factory; they were not at all offered as the solution to worker complaints.

Exactly, this thread has such a shit tier headline.

Considering how conscious we all are of fake news I would have thought accuracy was in fact quite important these days.

 

[subrock]

I did read the article. It's about a company CEO doing damage control for ongoing complaints about working conditions by shitting on unions and acting like incoming carnival attractions in his factory is some kind of solution.

He's gotta offer them something better than what a union offers, otherwise of course these people are gonna complain and want to join a union.

I think you are going to get accused of not reading the article again. He covered the points you're addressing, namely that they are offering higher compensation (when you include stock), no dues, safer than average working conditions and equal hours as UAW would.

 

[anaron]

Unions can have issues but I'll never understand not being for them when the alternative is always worse.

 

[soul creator]

I feel like the debate over unions is basically a democracy vs. dictatorship argument, even if it's not often thought of in that way.

Even if it's a good company to work for, not having a union effectively makes it a benevolent dictatorship, one which still leaves you and your non-capital owning/non-manager coworkers without power. And you have little recourse if that "benevolent" dictator happens to change their mind one day.

A union at least gives some degree of collective power to fight against capital.

Sure, in individual cases, a good company without a union may be better than a good company with a bad union, but I don't really think the organizing principle around labor policy should be "let's hope all companies become benevolent dictatorships". That seems like a dangerous road to go down just because unions aren't always perfect.

Of course, you can easily argue that we have already been down that dangerous road, and is the reason why income inequality has increased so much, and the country has swung to the right so much over the past 30 years...

 

[Midas]

I hate this. Really makes me re evaluate my opinion of him.

Yeah, me too. I thought he was one of the good guys, but it's all about the money for him as well. CREAM.

 

[smokeandmirrors]

I think you are going to get accused of not reading the article again. He covered the points you're addressing, namely that they are offering higher compensation (when you include stock), no dues, safer than average working conditions and equal hours as UAW would.

cant eat stock bro

stock options are a bullshit way to "inflate" pay without having to actually pay your people more.

 

[soul creator]

Silicon Valley Techno libertarians are the worse

Technocratic liberals and libertarians love their masters of industry.

amen
i imagine the overlap with well paid white coders & ayn rand fans is fairly high

Speaking of, check out this hot take

Spoiler

that I personally mostly agree with

 

[victreeb3l]

I started to dislike this dude after his support for Trump but stuff like this makes me hate him even more.

 

[Slayven]

Unions can have issues but I'll never understand not being for them when the alternative is always worse.

Only unions that should be dissolved are police unions. I am fine with all others, just don't let assholes get in positions of power and you cure 93% of problems w

 

[NYCmetsfan]

If conditions are bad UAW will have no problem unionizing Tesla workers. Here are some facts from the email that seem conveniently left out of the first post.





https://electrek.co/2017/02/24/tesla-union-elon-musk-addresses-employees/

This isn't how it works

I feel like the debate over unions is basically a democracy vs. dictatorship argument, even if it's not often thought of in that way.

Even if it's a good company to work for, not having a union effectively makes it a benevolent dictatorship, one which still leaves you and your non-capital owning/non-manager coworkers without power. And you have little recourse if that "benevolent" dictator happens to change their mind one day.

A union at least gives some degree of collective power to fight against capital.

Sure, in individual cases, a good company without a union may be better than a good company with a bad union, but I don't really think the organizing principle around labor policy should be "let's hope all companies become benevolent dictatorships". That seems like a dangerous road to go down just because unions aren't always perfect.

Of course, you can easily argue that we have already been down that dangerous road, and is the reason why income inequality has increased so much, and the country has swung to the right so much over the past 30 years...

yes, this is a big point

voting for a union gives you a mechanism and a contract to lock benefits into place. Without a contract the froyo can be here one day, gone tomorrow. With a union you can make him give you froyo enforceable by the courts

 

[subrock]

cant eat stock bro

stock options are a bullshit way to "inflate" pay without having to actually pay your people more.

that's a fair point, but it's not like these workers were hired at $30/hr and are only getting $20/hr plus $10/hr stock. They agreed to the terms of employment. If this is really about wages will a raise minus dues be any more edible than stocks?

 

[NYCmetsfan]

https://www.bcgperspectives.com/con...ing_why_decisive_action_needed_now/?chapter=2

Let's see how good life in Scandinavia is as manufacturing actually keeps declining and fewer and fewer jobs are available with a massive influx of migrants etc. Automation is only increasing as well. Plus you cannot compare the two areas at all. Compare the union and labor force and manufacturing of the US with China, India, Brazil, Russia and the UK etc.

There is no hatred of unions in the US and the US has some of the worlds oldest organized unions. Elon Musk is just trying to prevent it because Tesla is on the precipice. If they cannot deliver with the Model 3 en masse they are in trouble, if they unionize, it cuts into his profits and forces him to pay more, cut hours, eat into profits. Let's see what happens. Let's also not pretend like the UAW union isn't also largely responsible for a decline in US car manufacturing as GM and Ford and Chrysler all struggled with their demands while Japan and Germany soared etc. You do have a good point, there needs to be balance.

Its not and no union negotiates themselves out of existence. The very idea is preposterous. There's no reason a union can have givebacks in a contract if economics demands it

 

[Lord Fagan]

I think you are going to get accused of not reading the article again. He covered the points you're addressing, namely that they are offering higher compensation (when you include stock), no dues, safer than average working conditions and equal hours as UAW would.

I understand his position, I simply disagree because I'm just a big supporter of unions. I'm not convinced that a billionaire captain of industry who will not discount any of his products out of principle is doing anything here short of damage control. Lots of data and figures. I expect that out of an engineer, just like I expect that any implication of employee right to organize is going to be hand waved away as unnecessary, because obviously, he took the time to outline and write a whole section on "Fun." Guy totally cares, and he's smart, so there.

I've heard this all before. He'll do what he pleases, and his workers will make their own decisions, but the constant sideeye towards unions by the masters of the universe is an old story that still fools too many people.

 

[Jackpot]

Im glad Musk's flaws are coming out to the light, it was incredibly unsettling the way some people worshiped him like a god of science or something.

Yeah, it was pretty ludicrous how many people lapped up the "real-life Tony Stark!" tag line. He's a businessman like any other.

 

[Hickbilly Deluxe]

Unions can have issues but I'll never understand not being for them when the alternative is always worse.

We kicked out union out years ago, and have been better off for it. Good unions are good, bad unions scare off good employees and make a job fucking hell. It's not always worse, and people need to stop peddling that bullshit.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

I think you are going to get accused of not reading the article again. He covered the points you're addressing, namely that they are offering higher compensation (when you include stock), no dues, safer than average working conditions and equal hours as UAW would.

None of these are anything but words.

A union contract can make them enforcable

We kicked out union out years ago, and have been better off for it. Good unions are good, bad unions scare off good employees and make a job fucking hell. It's not always worse, and people need to stop peddling that bullshit.

How did the union scare off good employees and make your job hell?
What union was it? Type of job?

 

[duderon]

This isn't how it works



yes, this is a big point

voting for a union gives you a mechanism and a contract to lock benefits into place. Without a contract the froyo can be here one day, gone tomorrow. With a union you can make him give you froyo enforceable by the courts

I'm not an expert on factories getting unionized, but from this article: https://www.studentnewsdaily.com/daily-news-article/union-suffers-big-loss-at-tennessee-vw-plant/

It sounds like the UAW is allowed to form a union with a majority vote from factory workers. Please inform me if I am missing something.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

I'm an expert on factories getting unionized, but from this article: https://www.studentnewsdaily.com/daily-news-article/union-suffers-big-loss-at-tennessee-vw-plant/

It sounds like the UAW is allowed to form a union with a majority vote from factory workers. Please inform me if I am missing something.

My point is the only reason for unionization isn't horrible working conditions.

 

[duderon]

My point is the only reason for unionization isn't horrible working conditions.

What other reasons are there besides safety, working hours, and compensation?

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Musk alleged that the UAW’s “true allegiance is to the giant car companies...”

Huh. Guess the hospital I work for is a giant car company. Because UAW is who represents mine and other caregiver rights here.

 

[Frosty Droid]

https://www.bcgperspectives.com/con...ing_why_decisive_action_needed_now/?chapter=2

Let's see how good life in Scandinavia is as manufacturing actually keeps declining and fewer and fewer jobs are available with a massive influx of migrants etc.

How immigration is fuelling Sweden's economic boom

Let's also not pretend like the UAW union isn't also largely responsible for a decline in US car manufacturing as GM and Ford and Chrysler all struggled with their demands while Japan and Germany soared etc.

 

[Nairume]

I'm not an expert on factories getting unionized, but from this article: https://www.studentnewsdaily.com/daily-news-article/union-suffers-big-loss-at-tennessee-vw-plant/

It sounds like the UAW is allowed to form a union with a majority vote from factory workers. Please inform me if I am missing something.

The thing you are missing is the human element.

It isn't enough if you list off all the things that are bad at the company that a union could unequivocally make better when people can and will vote against their own interests for a variety of reasons including very human sentiments like fear, uneasiness, selfishness, and so on.

 

[nelsonroyale]

Speaking of, check out this hot take

Spoiler

that I personally mostly agree with

That is a good read, and pretty brutal.

 

[RinsFury]

Between this and his Trump support Elon Musk can get fucked.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

We kicked out union out years ago, and have been better off for it. Good unions are good, bad unions scare off good employees and make a job fucking hell. It's not always worse, and people need to stop peddling that bullshit.

Who is we? Kicked out of where? Better how?

Your post is so devoid of detail to make it almost entirely worthless. I could literally say "no actually we're worse now that the union is gone" and it'd refute it.

 

[Jezbollah]

Between this and his Trump support Elon Musk can get fucked.

Musk "supports" Trump? How, if I may ask?

 

[Bronx-Man]

Shameful.

 

[digita1alchemy]

Unions in general seem like a necessity in today's world, but there seem to be so many people that are vehemently against them. People who seem like they are arguing against their own best interests. I don't really know much about the history of unions in the US, but surely the opposition from common people, even if misguided, isn't entirely unfounded? What are some of the common arguments against unions from workers?

 

[entremet]

One of the very few areas where I part company with most liberals is that I am not at all in favor of unions. I have no problem with this.

Likewise.

 

[nephilimdj]

VIdeos I have seen, telsa operate more like a luxury brand, seems very relaxed and slow.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

One of the very few areas where I part company with most liberals is that I am not at all in favor of unions. I have no problem with this.

Likewise.

Why are you not at all in favor of unions?

 

[Cyanity]

Now would probably be a good time to post the great piece Wait But Why did on Elon Musk and his plans for Tesla and SpaceX: It's super long but is worth the read. Dude's a mad genius, and a notorious micromanager. It makes sense that he'd not want his workers unionized, and honestly? I don't blame him. Normally I'm all for unions, but as someone who knows how strenuous the work culture at Tesla and SpaceX is, I still want to work there some day.

 

[eosos]

Im not a huge union supporter, but ive only heard shitty things about Musk from people I know and work with.

 

[duderon]

The thing you are missing is the human element.

It isn't enough if you list off all the things that are bad at the company that a union could unequivocally make better when people can and will vote against their own interests for a variety of reasons.

Sure, but the thing people don't realize about Tesla and the media is that there is a large contingent that will always be trying to tear the company down. Major influences like oil companies, the big three auto manufacturers, short sellers, etc. will always try to put Tesla in a negative light. They are disrupting two huge industries. Just because one guy writes a medium article does not mean you can take that at face value. If you want a history lesson of a classic example look up John Broder. Used to write exclusively on the oil and gas industries then one day he popped up in a Model S to review it.

I have an inkling that Tesla workers work hard and enjoy being part of profound disruption for the most part. If I'm wrong then unions will be formed.

 

[Nairume]

Unions in general seem like a necessity in today's world, but there seem to be so many people that are vehemently against them. People who seem like they are arguing against their own best interests. I don't really know much about the history of unions in the US, but surely the opposition from common people, even if misguided, isn't entirely unfounded? What are some of the common arguments against unions from workers?

If you want a good snapshot of the fear of unions Americans have, just look at the SAG-AFTRA strike threads on the gaming side and see how people try and play on the possibility of how unionizing parts of the industry will drive the price of games up.