As have I, which is why I would give more consideration to the claims that things might not be great at Telsa than if it were "just" coming from a Medium article.
Buzzfeed: Elon Musk is a Union Buster but he'll give you free Froyo & Roller Coaster
- Thread starter NYCmetsfan
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Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
The roller coasters are also made of potassium benzoate.
Yeah, its easy to point at things like Tony Boyle having Jock Yablonski and his family murdered to keep control of the UMW as examples of union corruption, but it doesn't undo all the good unions have done and try to continue to do.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
this is literally the foundational reason for leftist politics. This is like "I'm Socially Liberal but Fiscally Conservative" it means you're right leaning
do you believe in workers having a say over their workplace?
If Musk wants to try to sweeten the deal for his employees to stop them from unionizing, I don't see a problem with that. If after that his employees decide they still need collective bargaining, then Tesla wasn't being honest about their working conditions.
Not every company needs a union, but the option should always be available regardless of where you work.
Not every company needs a union, but the option should always be available regardless of where you work.
.
Musk is a rich CEO at the end of the day though, so I'm less inclined to just take his word for it.
Just some food for thought on all the people dumping on Silicon Valley being a bunch of libertarians.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/feature...litical-dollars-are-going-to-hillary-clinton/
https://fivethirtyeight.com/feature...litical-dollars-are-going-to-hillary-clinton/
IrishNinja
Member
jesus, that's disheartening
somewhat related: everytime pieces like these are up they link to some ignorant knucklehead on YT and i almost always click the link, hear a minute and go "NAH MAN, YOU JUST DUMB" before closing it, its like i cant help myself
Spyder_Monkey
Banned
That's not unsettling.
Well, it makes him a classical liberal I guess
Earthstrike
Member
What about a business that sold labor? Would you oppose that?
Hephaestus
Member
To be fair I dont believe workers should have a say over what kind of donuts to bring to the workplace.
I say this as a worker...I truly honestly believe workers should be given little to almost no say over their workplace. I dont trust any of the engineers at my company to find their parking spot every day. I dont want them dictating policies.
Compensation seems good.
Unknown Soldier
Member
They get equity. Have you seen how much Tesla's stock has gone up? They are better paid than anybody at any other automaker if you factor in their equity.
ZackieChan
Member
Any contract can make them enforceable - it doesn't require a union.
TakeItSlowDude
Member
lol at this crap, critical theory not even once.
quickwhips
Member
Why not take the cost of the stuff and add it to employees salaries?
Unknown Soldier
Member
This is actually the most interesting thing I've read in awhile. It seems like the most accurate assessment I've ever seen of where Gamergate came from and why Hillary lost, among other things.
Mac the KNife
Member
At face value, Musk seems pretty reasonable to me. Plus, he's not lying when he says the forces against Tesla are many and powerful: established automakers, traditional fuel industries, the car dealership racket, as well as the politicians who answer to them all...love him or hate him, he's ruffled a lot of feathers.
LouisaFerre
Member
Really like the neoliberalism on display in this thread 
. Pretty frustrating to be when a lot of people claim to be left leaning but strongly oppose labor unions in favor of the interests and power of private ownership.
. Pretty frustrating to be when a lot of people claim to be left leaning but strongly oppose labor unions in favor of the interests and power of private ownership.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Unions are good and bad: they can either help you attain a livable wage or they'll make sure you don't get fired for murdering someone.
Either way, unions needs some regulations to prevent companies from letting go useless folks.
Either way, unions needs some regulations to prevent companies from letting go useless folks.
Unknown Soldier
Member
Really like the neoliberalism on display in this thread
If there's one thing I learned in 2016, it's that GAF is extremely neoliberal. GAF is not in any way, shape or form a left-leaning community. On social issues they tend to be liberal, but on economic issues they are all Ayn Rand.
As a few others have said, Unions can be healthy and destructive. An example of destructive is the rust belt - they got too greedy for the reality of what the jobs were worth and so the jobs left.
That actually describes a subset of Libertarians, which GAF mocks relentlessly.
That actually describes a subset of Libertarians, which GAF mocks relentlessly.
#JeSuisColin
hodayathink
Member
The general argument/reasons against unions basically boils down to power corrupts, more or less. Some unions have had shitty people running them that have done things that weren't necessarily in the best interests of the rank and file workers. And then there's unions like police unions, who have basically gotten nearly absolute protection for themselves at the expense of, well, everyone else in this country. Even without that, there's a really large disconnect nowadays between the leaders of unions and their rank and file members.
Basically some unions can be shit and they can be voted out democratically by the workers if they prove to be shit.
PersonAndStuff
Member
A lot of the tech industry seems to be run on the basis that you can treat people like shit if you tell them they're important and let them wear tshirts.
Thatonemoor
Member
Not gonna lie the amount of people that haven't read Musk actual email in this thread is kinda scary. On the topic of unions though. I can understand why Musk wouldn't want to deal with them because he isn't lying when he says Tesla fighting a war on all fronts but I think he should atleast consider it. Also I don't know where everyone in this thread is getting him "supporting" trump from. If you guys are talking about him going to Trumps tech conference then Tim Cook was there also guys. Don't think either of them are to fond of trump.
READ HIS ACTUA FLIPPIN EMAIL. For crying out loud if you read the thing the froyo and roller coaster come off as jokes.
READ HIS ACTUA FLIPPIN EMAIL. For crying out loud if you read the thing the froyo and roller coaster come off as jokes.
Because employees won't notice an extra $50/year, but they will notice (and appreciate) the occasional frozen treat.
Which is to say that people in general aren't rational actors. Which is fine: I know I'm not.
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
Lots of pointless drama here. If the employees want to unionize, they will. If not, they won't. Done.
It's really not that simple. Most people who unionize do it because of the stability it brings to their families. People, especially families, tend to take a more complete look at their situation before making decisions that affect many more people than themselves.
Personally, the reason I'm happy to be part of a union is empathy and reciprocity. Being able to talk to other people with the same problems and get a real response is extremely heartening. Doing something about it is even better, which is what a union provides for.
Not "frozen yogurt" but, "healthcare for your wife". Not "rollercoasters" but "guaranteed pensions." Not as exciting maybe, but absolutely necessary for living a happy, healthy life.
AntraxSuicide
Banned
Really like the neoliberalism on display in this thread
If I could delete a word, it would be the bolded. God this is the worst.
I'm surprised Tesla didn't adopt the German model of an internal workers body that has positions on management committees etc, and enables the workforce to act collectively without having to join a major union (of course the major unions are represented all the way up to board level in Germany).
Workers collective action is and always has been imperative to ensure hard won rights & conditions are maintained & extended. Whether that's through a traditional union or other organisational structure is less important than the fact it needs to happen & people need to be re-educated in the notion that collectively workers can challenge the Power and win.
Workers collective action is and always has been imperative to ensure hard won rights & conditions are maintained & extended. Whether that's through a traditional union or other organisational structure is less important than the fact it needs to happen & people need to be re-educated in the notion that collectively workers can challenge the Power and win.
Every industry does this. Every single one.
Freyjadour
Member
I like some of the work Musk has contributed to, but the last few months have made very apparent that his core audience will defend anything he does with barely a thought. Messiah complex.
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
It's a real word and pretending it isn't won't make it go away?
It's an ideological shift that happened where austerity, privatization, and deregulation became prioritized over the stimulus and mixed economy consensus of the postwar era. Some people might misuse the term (the way they already do with liberal!). That doesn't mean it isn't real.
brochiller
Member
CEO doesn't want employees to unionize.
Employees will end up doing what's best for them.
News at 11.
Employees will end up doing what's best for them.
News at 11.
I think many people wish "union busting" in the past meant sending out an email arguing a position and asking people not to unionize.
And if we are to immediately dismiss any argument Musk makes against unionization because he is the business owner, as some have argued, why aren't we also obligated to dismiss any argument the employees make in support of a union? I think all claims should be evaluated regardless.
I think the interactions between unions and businesses are complicated. It may certainly be that Musk is making false or unreasonable claims in his arguments against unionization, but to simplify this as just "unions good, arguing against this union bad" is a little much.
And if we are to immediately dismiss any argument Musk makes against unionization because he is the business owner, as some have argued, why aren't we also obligated to dismiss any argument the employees make in support of a union? I think all claims should be evaluated regardless.
I think the interactions between unions and businesses are complicated. It may certainly be that Musk is making false or unreasonable claims in his arguments against unionization, but to simplify this as just "unions good, arguing against this union bad" is a little much.
AntraxSuicide
Banned
I'd be more on board if you could find me a room full of people who don't misuse the word. It's clearly just a catchy way of saying "thing I don't like."
Depths of Orion
Member
I am not a fan of unions at all. I worked at a company that was unionized and it was terrible.
The older guys with seniority were incredibly lazy and barely did any work. If you wanted to fire someone you would basically have to fire everyone hired after the person because of seniority.
My company fired 2 hard working guys just so they could get to one of the welders.
Raises were capped at low percentages.
In our case we really didn't need a union so we got rid of it. Maybe Canada is different but our labor laws are pretty good.
The older guys with seniority were incredibly lazy and barely did any work. If you wanted to fire someone you would basically have to fire everyone hired after the person because of seniority.
My company fired 2 hard working guys just so they could get to one of the welders.
Raises were capped at low percentages.
In our case we really didn't need a union so we got rid of it. Maybe Canada is different but our labor laws are pretty good.
The labour market isn't a total monopsony. That said, it is true that for various reason individual workers have a lot less bargaining power than employers in the vast majority of situations. Unions can be good when they level the playing field between workers and employers. They go bad when they become an extractive institution in their own right.
And the bargaining is happening here. If you read the actual letter Elon does mention material things that have been done to improve the situation.
Elon Musk is the CEO and his job is to maximize profits. I know some people aren't about that. And I'm not at all a fan of Silicon Valley arrogance et all, but I don't really see what exactly he's done here that's so egregious. Of course he's going to try to negotiate for his side.
And the bargaining is happening here. If you read the actual letter Elon does mention material things that have been done to improve the situation.
Elon Musk is the CEO and his job is to maximize profits. I know some people aren't about that. And I'm not at all a fan of Silicon Valley arrogance et all, but I don't really see what exactly he's done here that's so egregious. Of course he's going to try to negotiate for his side.
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