Basic healthcare isn't a reward or "entitlement", it's a right.
And don't go "buh buh consshtutioootshun", that paper document predates the invention of modern medicine by a century.
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California Funds First Prisoner Sex-Reassignment Surgery and Move to Women's Prison
- Thread starter Horse Armour
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Basic healthcare isn't a reward or "entitlement", it's a right.
And don't go "buh buh consshtutioootshun", that paper document predates the invention of modern medicine by a century.
The problem is, and as much as I hate to bring trump up it's how he won and republicans control the government is that over years it has been sold to the public and people buy into the thought process that basic rights are somehow not rights but priveliges that should not be available or can be taken away from people for whatever reason they feel transgresses their moral code. It's sickening and totally against what the constitution/amendments/and laws say about human rights but unfortunately it's the reality of what people believe in America.
Is surgery like this a part of typical insurance coverage plans (fully covered)?
it's covered under various plans but the Republicans want it removed from all of them
The victim wasn't shot in an argument or heated confrontation, but actually kidnapped, taken to another location, and shot dead. I've been pretty drunk and I've been pretty high, but I usually always had the wherewithal to know when something supremely fucked up was going on.
But maybe that's all besides the point -- if this was a sober, cold-blooded murder done in the name of robbing someone, would you still advocate for the surgery?
You Are Viewtiful
Member
Well, it's a good thing your opinion doesn't matter in this case. The constitution protects people from cruel and unusual punishment, which is what you're advocating for. Prison is not a death sentence.
Whether it is or not it should be. That's really not a good argument considering how broken the system is and how worse it gets once Obamacare is repealed. The idea of no coverage for pre-exsisting conditions shows the health insurance business has nothing to do with actually providing good healthcare and in their perfect world is about profit made from gambling that the people they will cover don't get sick in the first place. They avoid paying for anything they don't have to.
What is covered and what should be covered are two vastly different things.
If that crime doesn't include willingly robbing someone of their life, sure. Even then there needs to be very long minimum punishments for extreme crimes like rape.
an organ transplant is a different story because those are very limited and way more considerations are taken into place into who should be receiving them. So I'd probably agree a murder convict shouldn't get one ahead of people who haven't killed other people.
Tell that to that murder victim and everyone that was effected by the loss of their life.
Thank you for telling me my opinion doesn't matter.
Regardless, since it's covered then that means this is not some luxury procedure most don't have access to. If you have healthcare (in particular, Medicare which a google search confirms that it's covered), then gender reassignment is already considered a necessary procedure that is provided for the well being of the patient
So I don't see how there could be any argument here. Being in prison is not a sentence to reduced medical care. They should not be privy to luxury cosmetic procedures, but it's already agreed upon in the medical industry that this does not qualify as that
Further, its not like someone could just request this and it gets done. It requires evaluation and recommendation of a doctor. It's not like a boob job cuz you are feeling bad about yourself, which is what I think anyone dissenting this must think
excelsiorlef
Member
Because I want to know why you draw the line and trans health....
Drug and alcohol can be destructive on their own but when you mix them together bad s*** happens.
Yes, prison should be a place for rehabilitation not a place for just punishment
But what the prisoner and his family and friends ?
ZackieChan
Member
excelsiorlef
Member
Her
I would if it was considered standard care that most people get under their insurance. They GET healthcare in prison. It may be considered a perk to some, but it's the states way of making punishment not a death sentence due to medical reasons
To not advocate this would be not advocating any medical procedure and taking away healthcare to prisoners
V
Vilix
Unconfirmed Member
You want to know why I draw the line for trans health for someone who committed kidnapping and murder?
Yes. You think murders should get some forms of medical care, but not SRS. Why is the line drawn there?
How About No
Member
The person who murdered someone doesn't dictate policy and ethics for the country
well, no murders that I know of
It doesn't matter what someone's character is like or what actions they've taken, every person deserves to be treated with basic human dignity and compassion. Period. Anything otherwise is barbaric.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
Is this an actual argument or are you just trying to guilt trip me into believing something irrational?
Your opinion really doesn't. Even if your opinion was applied, it would be shot down by the courts, because it's unconstitutional. It's an invalid opinion.
ZackieChan
Member
That's not what I'm responding to. Read what I quoted again.
When you work with murders you tend to change how you views things, cause it easy judge them
when you are in home but when you are face to face with them you see the person. I don't forget what they done but I look at the the circumstances. I know so many people who were high off of meth or coke or heroin who killed somebody but are the nicest people you'll ever meet they are truly sorry for they done.
Volunteer at a prison one day you might learn something
I know, but I thought it might be aplicable. I'll remove my quote of your post if you'd like.
No.
There should be no circumstance in which any person is denied medical treatment.
V
Vilix
Unconfirmed Member
Because of the crime she committed.
The nature of her crime is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. People are either in the care of the state or they aren't and if they are then the state carries the responsibility of guaranteeing their health and well-being. In no situation is the level of care during incarceration ever taken into consideration as a part of sentencing. She received a sentence of life without parole, not life without parole plus shittier health care than the rest of the prison population.
The are two arguments that can be used against this. You can either think:
A. That prisoners (murderers included) should not be entitled to proper medical care
or
B. That SRS should not be considered a medically important procedure
If you argue in favor of A, you are arguing against general human rights protections, including the 8th Amendment (see Estelle v. Gamble)
If you argue in favor of B, then you are disagreeing with the the entire medical community on the proper treatment for gender dysphoria.
The are two arguments that can be used against this. You can either think:
A. That prisoners (murderers included) should not be entitled to proper medical care
or
B. That SRS should not be considered a medically important procedure
If you argue in favor of A, you are arguing against general human rights protections, including the 8th Amendment (see Estelle v. Gamble)
If you argue in favor of B, then you are disagreeing with the the entire medical community on the proper treatment for gender dysphoria.
Isn't the answer the same as: if you are a child molester, should paramedics still save you from a heart attack?
It's just healthcare. The mental trauma associated with gender identity is not as easily digestable as brain trauma from a failing heart, but it's there and still deserving of care
However, I am not against capital punishment. If the crime is so dispicable that they aren't worth giving healthcare to, then we should have given them the death penalty
More_Badass
Member
Then why is other forms of medical care acceptable despite the same crime?
It is generally considered a medically necessary surgery for Gender Dysphoria. If we are treating other dysphorias and mental issues, then there is no reason not to treat this.
She is still in the care of the state, and it is considered the most basic of human dignities to take care of prisoners.
Why should she be denied this surgery because of the crime she committed? What makes her crime so special that a medically necessary surgery should be denied?
So should someone on Death Row should be eligible to receive SRS surgery?
excelsiorlef
Member
See this is a funny game of moral superiority you are playing.
Yes why is treatment for bipolar ok but not gender dysphoria?
V
Vilix
Unconfirmed Member
Cause I'm a nice guy? Lol.
As I've said before she lost her right to this level of health care when she committed those crimes IMO.
metalslimer
Member
Psychiatric medication does not save people's lives yet I doubt we would be having this conversation about the giving her lithium and the costs of those medications over the course of her life would probably be comparable. The reason of this I have to deduct has to specifically do with how people view trans people and seemingly trivializes this surgery
excelsiorlef
Member
What is the difference between bipolar disorder and gender dysphoria to you?
I suppose if they were so dangerous that transporting them out of the prison would put a great risk to other people. but they'd have to be Hannibal levels of dangerous, and that's unlikely.
On an emotional level, I'm not going to be happy bad people get medical treatment. I'd love for nothing more than to personally take a bat to Dylan Roof's mouth make him eat his own teeth and then shove the bat up his ass. BUt that's without looking at the broader picture of justice
If I want justice in our society, we can't keep medical treatment away from prisoners
Yes because unfortunately if you are death row, there is a still a chance the sentence could change and you need to still receive care until death.
metalslimer
Member
Seriously there have been enough people wrongfully convicted that the idea of withholding medical treatment to people is crazy on that fact alone
WaterAstro
Member
I think they should limit surgeries to life threatening situations.
cartographer
Member
Which this is, in most cases. Many trans people are suicidal.
More_Badass
Member
Shouldn't health care be defined by the individual person's needs, and not arbitrary "levels"? Is asthma medicine in one level, but denied on another? Or amputation for gangrene? Does third degree murder not get antipsychotics, while manslaughter not allowed insulin?
You see what you're advocating?
Petty revenge via the medical process. America. 2017.
WaterAstro
Member
Anyone can be suicidal. That's not an argument.
I respect your opinion and have no issue with it not being the same as mine.
I'm not here to tell anyone in this thread how right or wrong I think they are.
I shared my opinion.
I think it's an interesting topic.
I am not trying to make anyone feel guilty.
I'm not pretending to be the most skilled debater.
Be well
metalslimer
Member
Sorry I meant in the immediate sense. We could strap mentally ill people to beds for the rest of their lives. People don't really seem to have an issue treating those disorders though but not gender dysphoria. That people think SRS is something akin to a boob job is telling.
natsuyasumi
Member
Most suicidal people can't be helped with relatively simple surgery. Trans people can.
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