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[GaimeGuy]

Anyone can be suicidal. That's not an argument.

Copy/paste from a post I made in 2013. I'll see if I can find the source for the data since I stupidly neglecte to provide it in my post:

The suicide rate among transgenders is 41%. That's pre-operative, post-operative, with/without hormones, and untreated.

You want to know what the suicide rate is for transgenders who have undergone hormone treatment and had the surgery? 10-11%. Still much higher than the general population but considering the rates among transgendered persons as a whole it's a huuuuge improvement. it's an undisputable fact that refusing to provide for hormones/surgery puts transgender lives at risk.

(I believe the suicide rate for transgenders who transitioned before puberty is actually lower than that of the general populace)

 

[border]

Seriously there have been enough people wrongfully convicted that the idea of withholding medical treatment to people is crazy on that fact alone

For the sake of it, let's assume this was a murder/rape/molestation/hatecrime with a full confession that was not coerced in any fashion. Does that change the stakes at all, or is there no reason to deny surgery to anyone?

 

[excelsiorlef]

For the sake of it, let's assume this was a murder/rape/molestation/hatecrime with a full confession that was not coerced in any fashion. Does that change the stakes at all, or is there no reason to deny surgery to anyone?

Medical treatment is medical treatment.

I'll ask you the same thing would you deny a prisoner treatment for bipolar disorder?

 

[More_Badass]

For the sake of it, let's assume this was a murder/rape/molestation/hatecrime with a full confession that was not coerced in any fashion. Does that change the stakes at all, or is there no reason to deny surgery to anyone?

None. If that assumed person in your comment was suffering from gangrene in his/her foot and needed it to be treated or amputated, why should surgery be denied? The punishment for the crime was already meted out; that crime now means they must have their foot blacken and rot without treatment?

If they were suffering from diabetes, should insulin be denied? Their crime means they need to die a slow death without necessary medicine?

If they're suffering from gender dysphoria, should SRS be denied? Their crime requires they must suffer from suicidal ideation and depression without treatment?

 

[Future]

For the sake of it, let's assume this was a murder/rape/molestation/hatecrime with a full confession that was not coerced in any fashion. Does that change the stakes at all, or is there no reason to deny surgery to anyone?

If the above were true and they were on deathrow you still perform the care needed as long as their alive. There is no clause for prisoners that changes their medical rights due to the crime. If there was, then it would be a slippery slope on who you cover and who you don't. I'd prefer it cut and dry without need for debate

However, in the most heinous examples the hope would be that we'd carry out the death sentence as quickly as possible to save tax money not only on medicine, but everything else tax payers pay for.

 

[Princess Magnificent]

Wait, this transgendered rapist is completely hypothetical, is what I'm getting. As in, nobody could find an actual example of this happening.

I find that telling.

 

[Dany]

Withholding medical treatment Should not be punishment in society.

It's simple.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

I respect your opinion and have no issue with it not being the same as mine.
I'm not here to tell anyone in this thread how right or wrong I think they are.
I shared my opinion.
I think it's an interesting topic.

I am not trying to make anyone feel guilty.
I'm not pretending to be the most skilled debater.

Be well

...What? :s

Your posts leads me to believe that you think this thread is on the level of asking for your favourite colour. This thread was a debate on ethics, and yes, there is a "right" opinion (at least in my moral objectivist view), and there is a wrong one. I'm arguing that your post falls in the latter. I'm happy you "respect" my opinion, but I'd rather you respect it because it substantiated, and not simply because all opinions are special. Although, in debating you, I did not really give my "opinion", I was only poking holes in your own opinion.

 

[Da-Kid]

I would actually find it insulting a murderer can't live with themselves if they're a certain gender, but can for kidnapping, raping, and murdering someone.

That's pretty fucking rage inducing. Especially if I was a family member of the victim.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I would actually find it insulting a murderer can't live with themselves if they're a certain gender, but can for kidnapping, raping, and murdering someone.

That's pretty fucking rage inducing. Especially if I was a family member of the victim.

Jesus please stop...

 

[Ri'Orius]

I would actually find it insulting a murderer can't live with themselves if they're a certain gender, but can for kidnapping, raping, and murdering someone.

That's pretty fucking rage inducing. Especially if I was a family member of the victim.

Yeah, turns out mental illnesses like gender dysphoria aren't rational. It's not just "ugh, I wish I had tits, I should hang myself." It's "this individual's brain chemistry is seriously out of whack."

 

[cartographer]

I would actually find it insulting a murderer can't live with themselves if they're a certain gender, but can for kidnapping, raping, and murdering someone.

That's pretty fucking rage inducing. Especially if I was a family member of the victim.

Welcome to mental health.

 

[Da-Kid]

Theoretically, people can complain about anything about themselves and threaten suicide, right?

 

[border]

Medical treatment is medical treatment.

I'll ask you the same thing would you deny a prisoner treatment for bipolar disorder?

If they're suffering from gender dysphoria, should SRS be denied? Their crime requires they must suffer from suicidal ideation and depression without treatment?

I think it's clear that some people want to draw the line at medical treatment for conditions that are not immediately life-threatening. Which is to say that cancer or infection is not necessarily the same as gender dysphoria. I personally can't judge how debilitating gender dysphora is, since I haven't experienced it firsthand or read many secondhand accounts. If it is as uncontrollable and bad as bipolar disorder though, I think at least drugs/hormones are worth administering.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I think it's clear that some people want to draw the line at medical treatment for conditions that are not immediately life-threatening. Which is to say that cancer or infection is not necessarily the same as gender dysphoria. I personally can't judge how debilitating gender dysphora is, since I haven't experienced it firsthand or read many secondhand accounts. If it is as uncontrollable and bad as bipolar disorder though, I think at least drugs/hormones are worth administering.

Surgery and hormones are the treatment when it gets that far that's the end of that story.

 

[Ri'Orius]

Theoretically, people can complain about anything about themselves and threaten suicide, right?

What exactly are you implying? That allowing SRS for prisoners will lead to others claiming they can't live without an Xbox and HDTV?

Look, you don't get SRS without years of therapy and hormone treatments. And there's a wealth of studies showing that untreated gender dysphoria leads to suicide. This isn't something that can be reasonably faked.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Theoretically, people can complain about anything about themselves and threaten suicide, right?

Trans people have to go under intensive psycho therapy before they get treatment...

 

[metalslimer]

I think it's clear that some people want to draw the line at medical treatment for conditions that are not immediately life-threatening. Which is to say that cancer or infection is not necessarily the same as gender dysphoria. I personally can't judge how debilitating gender dysphora is, since I haven't experienced it firsthand or read many secondhand accounts. If it is as uncontrollable and bad as bipolar disorder though, I think at least drugs/hormones are worth administering.

No they aren't drawling the line at non-life threatening because people seem fine paying for the medications for other psychiatric disorders. If someone wants to take the position that bipolar, schizophrenic, etc. prisoners deserve to be stay mentally destabilized for their entire stay, I think that's horrid but at least consistent. Saying you want to pay to treat one disorder while ignoring others just belittles what trans people actually go through and shows what they think of trans people.

 

[Da-Kid]

What exactly are you implying? That allowing SRS for prisoners will lead to others claiming they can't live without an Xbox and HDTV?

I said a problem with THEMSELVES. Not Xbox.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I said a problem with THEMSELVES. Not Xbox.

You trivialize the struggle trans people have...

 

[The Beard]

Shouldn't people outside of prison, you know, people who haven't killed a father of 3 in cold blood, be able to get free SRS first before we worry about a murderer/kidnapper's mental well being?

There are plenty of good people out there who are beneficial to society and would die to have this surgery.

 

[metalslimer]

Shouldn't people outside of prison, you know, people who haven't killed a father of 3 in cold blood, be able to get free GRS first before we worry about a murderer/kidnapper's mental well being?

There are plenty of good people out there who are beneficial to society and would die to have this surgery.

You can apply this to literally any medical treatment a prisoner receives.

 

[Ri'Orius]

I said a problem with THEMSELVES. Not Xbox.

Sorry: if you'd like to be understood it's best to be clear. So I ask again: what exactly are you proposing?

 

[ASTROID2]

I say there isn't a harsh enough punishment possible for murder. This is a luxury surgery. They don't need it to keep their heart beating. Who cares if she has mental pain. How do you think her victim feels? Oh right they were killed they had everything taken away from them.

*Edited

 

[SolicitorPirate]

You trivialize the struggle trans people have...

Wouldn't be the first time someone barged into a trans thread and did this

 

[excelsiorlef]

I say there isn't a harsh enough punishment possible for murder. This is a luxury surgery. They don't need it to keep their heart beating. Who cares if he has mental pain. How do you think his victim feels? Oh right they were killed they had everything taken away from them.

She
her

GRS isn't a luxury....

Wouldn't be the first time someone barged into a trans thread and did this

Yeah I mean I called the trajectory of this thread from page one.

 

[Knuckle Sandwich]

As a california tax payer I don't have a problem with this.

I'm also glad she'll rot in prison for the rest of her life.

 

[SolicitorPirate]

I say there isn't a harsh enough punishment possible for murder. This is a luxury surgery. They don't need it to keep their heart beating. Who cares if he has mental pain. How do you think his victim feels? Oh right they were killed they had everything taken away from them.

Refer to GaimeGuy's excellent post

The suicide rate among transgenders is 41%. That's pre-operative, post-operative, with/without hormones, and untreated.

You want to know what the suicide rate is for transgenders who have undergone hormone treatment and had the surgery? 10-11%. Still much higher than the general population but considering the rates among transgendered persons as a whole it's a huuuuge improvement. it's an undisputable fact that refusing to provide for hormones/surgery puts transgender lives at risk.

(I believe the suicide rate for transgenders who transitioned before puberty is actually lower than that of the general populace)

 

[The Beard]

You can apply this to literally any medical treatment a prisoner receives.

This surgery is unique though. It affects mental health. I want my next door neighbor to get the surgery they need to stay mentally healthy. I think the person who kidnapped and murdered a young father of 3 made a decision that should put them on the bottom of the list.

 

[excelsiorlef]

This surgery is unique though. It affects mental health. I want my next door neighbor to get the surgery they need to stay mentally healthy. I think the person who kidnapped and murdered a young father of 3 made a decision that should put them on the bottom of the list.

There's no list....

 

[Butterfly Witch]

Shouldn't people outside of prison, you know, people who haven't killed a father of 3 in cold blood, be able to get free SRS first before we worry about a murderer/kidnapper's mental well being?

There are plenty of good people out there who are beneficial to society and would die to have this surgery.

Yes but socialized medicine is eeeeeeeeeeeeevvvvvvvvviiiiiilllllll...

 

[SolicitorPirate]

This surgery is unique though. It affects mental health. I want my next door neighbor to get the surgery they need to stay mentally healthy. I think the person who kidnapped and murdered a young father of 3 made a decision that should put them on the bottom of the list.

I don't think that's the right way to think about it. You shouldn't be angry that a murderer got the medical treatment she needed. You should be angry that your neighbour can't.

 

[Ri'Orius]

This surgery is unique though. It affects mental health. I want my next door neighbor to get the surgery they need to stay mentally healthy. I think the person who kidnapped and murdered a young father of 3 made a decision that should put them on the bottom of the list.

Does this logic of yours extend to psychiatric medications as well?

 

[Got]

Shouldn't people outside of prison, you know, people who haven't killed a father of 3 in cold blood, be able to get free SRS first before we worry about a murderer/kidnapper's mental well being?

There are plenty of good people out there who are beneficial to society and would die to have this surgery.

"why not both?" is apt here. helping everyone is the better option.

 

[metalslimer]

This surgery is unique though. It affects mental health. I want my next door neighbor to get the surgery they need to stay mentally healthy. I think the person who kidnapped and murdered a young father of 3 made a decision that should put them on the bottom of the list.

Nope, the same logic applies. People with mental disorders end up on medications for the rest of their lives that they pay for while prisoners get the treatments free. So either you agree that prisoners should get mental treatment or you don't. ANd let's not talk about costs because medications for life are also expensive.

I think healthcare should be considered a human right, though I do not think a surgery like this should really fall under that category.

A completely contradictory statement. Not specifically pointing towards you, but no wonder there is so much transphobia when there is so little understanding of them and the medical decisions they face.

 

[Newt]

I think healthcare should be considered a human right, though I do not think a surgery like this should really fall under that category.

 

[Got]

I think healthcare should be considered a human right, though I do not think a surgery like this should really fall under that category.

qualified medical professionals say otherwise. good thing we defer to their judgement and expertise.

 

[The Beard]

There's no list....

Instead of giving a person who kidnapped and murdered a 33 year old father of 3 the surgery, a list would've been the right thing to do.

Acknowledge that this surgery is important, and there are much more deserving candidates out there. Create a list, put kidnappers/murderers on the bottom.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I think healthcare should be considered a human right, though I do not think a surgery like this should really fall under that category.

Because?

Instead of giving a person who kidnapped and murdered a 33 year old father of 3 the surgery, a list would've been the right thing to do.

Acknowledge that this surgery is important, and there are much more deserving candidates out there. Create a list, put kidnappers/murderers on the bottom.

There's no list

 

[SolicitorPirate]

I think healthcare should be considered a human right, though I do not think a surgery like this should really fall under that category.

I feel like I'm going to be posting this quote a whole bunch

The suicide rate among transgenders is 41%. That's pre-operative, post-operative, with/without hormones, and untreated.

You want to know what the suicide rate is for transgenders who have undergone hormone treatment and had the surgery? 10-11%. Still much higher than the general population but considering the rates among transgendered persons as a whole it's a huuuuge improvement. it's an undisputable fact that refusing to provide for hormones/surgery puts transgender lives at risk.

(I believe the suicide rate for transgenders who transitioned before puberty is actually lower than that of the general populace)

 

[metalslimer]

Instead of giving a person who kidnapped and murdered a 33 year old father of 3 the surgery, a list would've been the right thing to do.

Acknowledge that this surgery is important, and there are much more deserving candidates out there. Create a list, put kidnappers/murderers on the bottom.

Should we do the same with other pyschological treatments of prisoners? I'm sure there are many out there with bipolar disorder that would love to get their medications for free as well.

No one seems to ever have an answer to the question of why they seem to ignore the many other psychological treatments we give prisoners but specifically have a problem with this treatment.

 

[Kinsei]

Instead of giving a person who kidnapped and murdered a 33 year old father of 3 the surgery, a list would've been the right thing to do.

Acknowledge that this surgery is important, and there are much more deserving candidates out there. Create a list, put kidnappers/murderers on the bottom.

You have a really fucked up view of health care. This isn't an organ transplant. There's no "list', everyone that needs it should be able to get it. Instead of complaining about this woman getting a life saving surgery, you should be working to try and fix your shitty ass health care system.

 

[The Beard]

Does this logic of yours extend to psychiatric medications as well?

There are ways to get help with psychiatric prescriptions. There is no help for SRS afaik.

 

[Vicetrailia]

To be honest, I don't have much of a problem with this. Plus it's an extremely rare occurrence.

 

[metalslimer]

There are ways to get help with psychiatric prescriptions. There is no help for SRS afaik.

Then go work on fixing that instead of complaining about this.

 

[excelsiorlef]

There are ways to get help with psychiatric prescriptions. There is no help for SRS afaik.

What's that have to do with prisons....

 

[Ms.Galaxy]

I think healthcare should be considered a human right, though I do not think a surgery like this should really fall under that category.

Wouldn't be the first time I wasn't considered human, to be honest. :/

When the suicide rate of transgender people is literally a flip of a coin, I would consider GRS an actual life saving operation.

Trans rights are human rights, and trans care are part of human rights.

 

[The Beard]

Then go work on fixing that instead of complaining about this.

Bye.

 

[excelsiorlef]

There are ways to get help with psychiatric prescriptions. There is no help for SRS afaik.

Besides you're wrong anyway

n 2001, the California Supreme Court ruled that Medi-Cal must cover “medically-necessary treatment,” including sex reassignment surgery. But the problem, Harbatkin said, is Medi-Cal reimbursement rates were too low. In San Francisco, she said, there were no surgeons providing sex reassignment surgery who would take Medi-Cal rates.

“We would write to Medi-Cal and say, ‘We’d like you to cover this,’ and they’d say ‘Great, find a surgeon who takes Medi-Cal,'” Harbatkin said. “But there were no surgeons who were taking Medi-Cal.”

But in recent years, California shifted patients to county-run Medi-Cal managed care plans. In San Francisco, that meant two health plans, Anthem Blue Cross and the San Francisco Health Plan, would contract with Med-Cal and providers would now cover sex-reassignment surgeries and other transition-related health care procedures.

“The big exciting piece of this is that Medi-Cal will actually cover transgender surgeries now,” Harbatkin said. “The plans have contracted with surgeons who can do transition-related surgeries.”

The response, in a word, has been overwhelming, said doctors who specialize in transgender health care.

“When I started doing trans care in 1997, I did not think in my lifetime that we would be able to see people able to have transgender surgery,” Harbatkin said. “So as we move into more accessibility, we’re also thinking about how to allow people to be more successful … and have the long-term results they want.”

https://ww2.kqed.org/stateofhealth/...opens-doors-to-care-for-transgender-patients/

 

[Agent_Carnage]

This kinda rubs me the wrong way. I am all for Prisoners getting standard healthcare provided. But I dont think getting a surgery that is entirely optional for free is kinda right. While people that havent killed anyone cant afford the SRS.