TheExecutive
Member
People seriously comparing chemotherapy, mental disorders, and medical necessities to GRS?
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California Funds First Prisoner Sex-Reassignment Surgery and Move to Women's Prison
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excelsiorlef
Member
GRS is the recognized medical treatment for Gender Dysphoria what is it to you?
How About No
Member
I know right it's like medical experts deemed it necessary for a certain patient's medical needs like jeez what the heck
...sorry I'm tired
Edit I feel like people would learn a lot if they just read like a quarter of this thread instead of blindly posting statements and questions that have been answered over and over and over and over and
But I guess that's what keeps it on the front page huh? Exposure to these issues is a plus
Actually as someone who has been to jail and has been involved with prison and justice reform in my home state I think there is a lot wrong with the system as is, however the response is to fight to fix it not get mad and blow shit up when it actually works.
As for your second paragraph we are talking about someone who has been in jails for years, got clean entered therapy and working with doctors years later figured out part of an issue, not someone about to go choosing this to duck prison rape.
In fact you can write as many paragraphs as you want trying to make it about "greys" but the fact you even brought prison rape into it and framed this as an inmate trying to escape it therefore gaining a "win" shows me exactly your intent and no amount of flowery words covers up the shit stench at the bottom of your post.
Dr. Benton Quest
Banned
This is unfair and a false equivalency. I'm not continuing though as per my last post.
BadenBadenLily
Banned
Not at all.
The main opinion of Evangelicals is that gay people are mentally ill sexual predators.
The main opinion of TERFs is that trans women are mentally ill sexual predators.
excelsiorlef
Member
It is identical. Rad fems treat folks like myself with the same level of animus as social conservatives evangelicals treat gay folk.
Btw continue? You started. Don't open lines of dialogue you're not actually interested in engaging in.
natsuyasumi
Member
Right, that's what gets me. A revolving cast of cis people keep posting the same old refuted arguments (revenge and torture! doesn't deserve care! not medically necessary! think of the victims!) that were discussed and dismissed by page 2 and many times since. Meanwhile us trans folk feel obligated to stick around acting as information-dispensing kiosks in the often-vain hope that said cis people will come to see the problems inherent to their garbage-laden hot-takes. Because, well, this shit affects us.
It's the usual tyranny of the majority. They hit and run, we do the heavy lifting to try and educate them.
Shoutout to excelsiorlef for being most prolific cis education machine. Your endurance is remarkable.
Chmpocalypse
Blizzard
Chmpocalypse
Blizzard
I feel like I'm missing something here. I'm pro-trans rights and very much support SRS and state-funded treatment for trans people.
My suspicions were about the bigoted assholes who are anti-trans. If you're not in that despicable group and feel I was targeting trans people, clearly I misread something, and would very much like to know where I went wrong!
The Faceless Master
Member
man, if only the corrupt system didn't enslave so many people.
i would save so much on my taxes.
i would save so much on my taxes.
natsuyasumi
Member
Actually, I missed something. I was confused re: what post you were replying to, which made my reply inappropriate. Please accept my apology.
Dr. Benton Quest
Banned
This isn't true. Thanks for the slur though. Jesus.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
What the hell is this?
First of all, "nobody cries for them" is a lie. There are plenty of activists who decry and try to fight against prison rape. If it hasn't really been mentioned in this thread, it's because it's not relevant to the discussion.
Second, prison rape isn't state-sanctioned, it's something that happens because the state is incompetent at preventing and handling it, but it's not an inherent feature of prison. Medical treatment for inmates, however, is.
Frankly, I am baffled why you even bring up prison rape in this discussion. It reeks of disingenuous concern trolling, at best.
As others have said, gender identity isn't a "sex preference". SRS is a medical treatment. Like pills for bipolar disorders, or chemo for cancer, or dialysis for kidney disease. Framing this as "a win for the murderer" or "a loss for the victims" is ridiculous. If a murderer has kidney disease and receives free dialysis in prison, should we consider the feelings of their victim before giving them this treatment? No, because that's ridiculous.
Understandable, but if we are talking about a general societal issue, this kind of emotional reaction has no place. There's a good reason why civilized societies don't let the victims of crimes determine the punishment of the perpetrators, or outcome of trials, you know.
Slur? What? How is it a slur?
If you are a radfem who isn't opposed to trans rights, then you aren't trans-exclusionary (and therefore not a TERF) so the term doesn't apply to you. If you ARE opposed to trans rights, then the term is accurate in describing how you think.
Instead of nitpicking terminology, how about you clarify and explain what it is you actually believe in as a radfem? I mean you're the one who wanted to bring up radical feminism in this conversation to begin with.
BadenBadenLily
Banned
It absolutely is. I'd be more than happy to provide quotes from prominent feminists or simply direct you to r/GenderCritical if you don't believe me.
excelsiorlef
Member
TERF isn't a slur lol.
Why not actually state whatever your position is instead of dancing around it. I mean you brought this all up unprompted
TERFs are defined by bigotry against trans women. It's in the name. How are you arguing that this isn't the case?
Or are we going to circle back to defining some form of radical feminism that excludes trans women but goes by a different name because you don't like the term TERF?
uncelestial
Member
Everyone wants this to be a slam-dunk win for liberalism that you would have to be a jerk to oppose. It's so obviously a more gray issue than that. The fucking bingo card, really? That's the ultimate, smug, "I'm smarter than the 100 people who touch on any of these points" move.
These points are good:
- Poor trans people don't get free GRS
- Law-abiding trans people don't get free GRS
And those are good points because it applies to healthcare generally. We as a society decided that the state should intervene and help cover medical care for murderers but for everyone else it's a privilege they can go without. It's not really about the fact that this particular treatment is GRS, it's that we let poor people die every day and do nothing.
It's okay to find that distasteful. It's okay to find that wrong. Trying to paint everyone pointing that out with a broad brush and calling them transphobic is not okay.
These points are good:
- Poor trans people don't get free GRS
- Law-abiding trans people don't get free GRS
And those are good points because it applies to healthcare generally. We as a society decided that the state should intervene and help cover medical care for murderers but for everyone else it's a privilege they can go without. It's not really about the fact that this particular treatment is GRS, it's that we let poor people die every day and do nothing.
It's okay to find that distasteful. It's okay to find that wrong. Trying to paint everyone pointing that out with a broad brush and calling them transphobic is not okay.
If you are a radical feminist that just believe in the usual stuff like against pornography, against prostitution and in favor of political lesbianism than you are just a rad.
If you are like everything listed above and you exclude trans women as women, which is a believe that LOTS of radical feminists does not share, than you are a a radical feminist who exclude trans people. That is literaly what TERF is.
It is not JUST a health care because people obviously does not want her to be moved without surgery.
But the way the USA works is : The estate (or private if private prisons) pay for the health of the prisoner because if the prisoner die or have problems then the person will not have fullfilled their entire sentence. If we allowed people who need psychological care to not receive treatment in prison than basicaly any torture method would be legal since they are usualy focused in creating psychological distress.
If was so magic like people would be saying than anyone would steal an apple to try to get to prison so they can get free food and everything else ... but HEY ! People treat trans inmantes like SHIT because the country wants to put a woman in a cell with lots of men who haven't seen a woman in a long time. But NOOO that is not inhuman treatment
If you are like everything listed above and you exclude trans women as women, which is a believe that LOTS of radical feminists does not share, than you are a a radical feminist who exclude trans people. That is literaly what TERF is.
It is not JUST a health care because people obviously does not want her to be moved without surgery.
But the way the USA works is : The estate (or private if private prisons) pay for the health of the prisoner because if the prisoner die or have problems then the person will not have fullfilled their entire sentence. If we allowed people who need psychological care to not receive treatment in prison than basicaly any torture method would be legal since they are usualy focused in creating psychological distress.
If was so magic like people would be saying than anyone would steal an apple to try to get to prison so they can get free food and everything else ... but HEY ! People treat trans inmantes like SHIT because the country wants to put a woman in a cell with lots of men who haven't seen a woman in a long time. But NOOO that is not inhuman treatment
excelsiorlef
Member
Prisoners get treatment everyday. No one writes an article about them... consider what's different about this story.
We've had multiple people here say prisoners ought to receive medical treatment but draw a line at GRS.
Maybe instead of acting so sanctimonious you can consider why this is a story but other medical treatments aren't.
Look through the thread again. This has been addressed as naseum. The solution is to fix healtcare for the country not take it away for prisoners. And the majority of people using the argument in this thread are just throwing it out as a whataboutism and once it's been addressed find a different reason to latch onto for why they don't agree with this.
BronsonLee
Member
Here's what I've learned so far from this thread:
This issue combines so many significant things regarding an individual's ethics towards prisoners, transgender people, and murderers' rights that you can easily have an opinion that agrees on multiple facets but is completely 180 on another
I am extremely underqualified to give any kind of fair opinion on this that would come from anything beyond general empathy & support for medical treatment
This thing is a lightning rod that is guaranteed to have people arguing forever
This issue combines so many significant things regarding an individual's ethics towards prisoners, transgender people, and murderers' rights that you can easily have an opinion that agrees on multiple facets but is completely 180 on another
I am extremely underqualified to give any kind of fair opinion on this that would come from anything beyond general empathy & support for medical treatment
This thing is a lightning rod that is guaranteed to have people arguing forever
uncelestial
Member
Maybe instead of acting so sanctimonious you can consider why I'm bringing this up in this thread instead of the non-existent one about prisoner health care that I can't post to right now.
I agree, the solution is to fix healthcare. But I wouldn't say it's "been addressed ad naseum" at the point where that bingo card starts floating around and people are glad. People have lost loved ones to our health care system because of money issues. Trans people in this thread have spoken about how it stings that they will have to pay for their GRS. It's not a slam dunk issue where you can just slap "transphobia" on it and call it good.
So after the SRS, should the government tip the doctor ?
BronsonLee
Member
PLATY NO
This is a great post.
I'm going to open up a can of worms with this next question, and I know that a lot of you guys are going to tear me apart for this....but why is GRS a "necessary" surgery in this case? Like, I have a law-abiding trans cousin and she can't afford the surgery. Why does this criminal NEED it? My cousin is going through life without it, it sucks for her but she is going to work hard and someday be able to afford it.
Abstrusity
Member
It would be okay to say "Poor and law abiding transpeople don't get free(tax paid) GRS, so I would like to see that, too."
The problem is, we've got "Poor and law abiding transpeople don't get free GRS, why should a prisoner?"
The solution for some people would be to remove that care from prisoners because nobody else gets it without having to pay for it. While it sucks that I will have to drop a goodly amount to have mine, it should not be denied to anyone who needs it. Rather than stripping it from prisoners, we should fight for everyone to have easy, free, or at the very least, much reduced, care. No matter who they are, where they're from, what they did, didn't do, or whatever.
We have people equating it to being elective or simply cosmetic, comparing GRS to a rote nose or boob job or tummy tuck or what-have-you.
I don't know if I'd call ignorance transphobic on its face, but...
Because it is the cause to myriad other symptoms that dramatically increase suicide rates. Your cousin cannot afford the surgery, and thus suffers every single day. She is likely being treated in minimalist ways. Anti-depressants here, anti-anxiety there, but it's Sisyphean in effect. The same is true, here. Rather than address the symptoms, California is addressing the cause.
It's necessary for her, just like it's necessary for your cousin.
It is sad that trans people who are free cannot have free genital surgery.
You know what is also sad ?
Having hormone changes your body but still be in a cell with men in a men's prison with everyone treating you as a men.
It would be much better if they could move her to women's prison .... but NOBODY IN THIS THREAD WOULD ACCEPT THAT AS LONG AS SHE HAS A PENIS so the obvious choice is you either put her on infinite solitary like chelsea manning or you give her genital surgery
In the medical standards of care, the cure for gender dysphoria is hormone therapy and GRS.
It is LITERALY a cure for something considered a mental disease. The ONLY mental disease that can be cured by surgery.
excelsiorlef
Member
Did you literally just go with I know you are but what am I?
I've been active in this thread since page one have you? I know what's been argued and I have engaged with each person individually...
This is a thread about trans health care in prison not the state of healthcare in America.
Those points are bad.
Poor, law-abiding trans and cis people don't get free food and shelter. When someone is imprisoned, they no longer have the means to provide for themselves. So the state needs to provide for them, including medical care. This is not a controversial concept.
So I generally think if someone is opposed to a trans prisoner receiving GRS, that comes from a position of "this isn't medical care," or sometimes the good ol' "fuck prisoners in general." Both of which are deplorable opinions.
LordKasual
Banned
Jesus some of you behave as if you've never spoken to an actual human being outside of a forum board before. Fuck building rapport with anyone. Just go straight at the neck of people who even vaguely don't agree with you.
Well, you can take all your shitty little half-baked, kneejerk assumptions about my "intent" and go straight to hell then. Happy discussions.
People like you is why it's so hard to get people to listen in the first damn place.
excelsiorlef
Member
Go fight for government healthcare for all.
Your cousin having to go without it is terrible. But the solution to the trans health fight isn't bootstraps. Please go fight for health care that will enable her to get it even if she can't afford it. That'd be an amazing ally move, we need people for that fight!
The solution for helping people who can't afford something isn't to take it away from someone else (no matter what they've done). Prisoners are legally to be provided healthcare by the government, GRS is healthcare.
Did you read the article? In your post, your words, directed at me you framed it as someone getting surgery before prison on the states dime to avoid prison rape.
Those were your words and not in any way shape reflective of the case this thread is about.
I can only assume based on what you wrote so if you want to "build rapport" and not get attacked how about talking about the actual case and not frame it as winning or losing or about prison rape or other whataboutisms.
uncelestial
Member
You actually just said "it's not controversial that we treat prisoners better than poor people." You wanna try that again, or?
No, I went with "I'm talking about the thing a thread is about in that thread."
I can see that it may be thorny to let the dysphoria continue and have her live without GRS in women's prison. Given that prison rape seems well-nigh unpreventable in our current correctional system, I think she would have been an easy target. On a lesser scale I can imagine the discomfort (perhaps even trauma-triggering) that both she and other prisoners would experience during public showers.
But of course, the real reason why she should have gotten GRS is that it was medical care.
Of course they aren't going to "try that again". Prisoners are wards of the state. The end. That's why we provide them with food/shelter and medical attention.
Just like the government provides for other wards. Or parents provide for their children (who are wards but not of the state.)
Treating wards like wards is not controversial. We don't treat poor people like wards because they AREN'T wards (aka, they have freedom.)
You can argue that poor people should be treated better, but it's not really a related conversation.
whoa, let's not advocate for too much prison reform. that sounds like a lot of effort
uncelestial
Member
If my eyes rolled any harder at this post, the friction inside my eye socket would probably cook my aqueous humor.
Everybody knows *why* that system legally exists. Unless you think we've actually achieved perfection and the United States no longer needs to change any laws or make any further adjustments, however, there may actually be some things to discuss regarding that. Thanks for pointing out that "the thing you speak of exists." I know that, but, I guess it was helpful to have you point that out.
As for your opinion that benefits afforded to disadvantaged people is generally "not really a related conversation," well that's not really a related conversation. That's what this thread has been about since the OP. Start a thread somewhere else about whether it's okay to talk about prisoner benefits vs welfare. You're slowing me down.
Seems a shame that I couldn't make them roll harder then. Nothing you just said why you think prisoners should either 1) not be wards or 2) be wards but somehow not be entitled to treatment.
You should be able to argue one of those things if you truly think it is controversial.
uncelestial
Member
That isn't a sentence.
What are you even trying to say?
Edit: If I squint I think I see you giving me two choices of conversation that I am not interested in?
If you truly believe this to be controversial, you should either argue that (regardless of whether you agree or not)
1) Prisoners should not be wards of the state
2) Prisoners are not entitled to SRS specifically, but they are entitled to other healthcare
EDIT: edited argument 1)
uncelestial
Member
No, I don't have to argue either thing. I think I am fine with the argument I am already making without you asking me to argue irrelevant things that I don't believe.
The Faceless Master
Member
and if your cousin had cancer?
You merely asserted it was controversial. I see no argument. There was only a hand-wave of Ri'Orius's post. I see nothing "fine" about that.
If you can think of an argument of why this is controversial that doesn't fit into one of my arguments, you are welcome to go ahead.
Otherwise, this whole conversation is a distraction from what this particular case was about: the rights of prisoners to have (certain) medical care.
Im strictly against life sentences, I think prison main objective should be to make the inmate a better person, punishing the individual is important, but it shouldnt be the main focus.
With that in mind, theres another point Im thinking about... If shes been life sentenced theres no point trying to reform her, she will just die in prison, so why should the state, that has no interest in making this person a better individual, care about her mental well being? Its very clear that the state is only trying to punish her by locking her away for her whole life, so I guess making her life better is not acting in accordance with the punishment.
With that in mind, theres another point Im thinking about... If shes been life sentenced theres no point trying to reform her, she will just die in prison, so why should the state, that has no interest in making this person a better individual, care about her mental well being? Its very clear that the state is only trying to punish her by locking her away for her whole life, so I guess making her life better is not acting in accordance with the punishment.
The state doesn't care. It is being forced to do this. Just like it is forced to bring food and water and treat other medical illnesses.
This particular prisoner has an illness that is treatable by surgery, thus the state provides that surgery just like they would for other illness.
Ray Wonder
Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
I'm not really complaining, but no.
Ozzy Onya A2Z
Member
Up next for inmate freebies...liposuction, plastic surgery and botox parties. Why should they miss out /s
excelsiorlef
Member
GRS is not cosmetic surgery it is medical treatment.
Well, yeah, but its not a life or death surgery, its a wellbeing surgery, altho you could argue the inmate would probally commit suicide.
The state gives food and water because it wants the convicted to stay alive and get punished. If they die then theres no punishment.
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