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[Jobbs]

But the severity of the crime doesn't dictate what medical treatment you receive

Should a murderer on death row not be allowed insulin or dialysis because they're a murderer?

We have to accept some amount of mental anguish existing in our death row and life sentence prisoners. Being on death row or being sentenced to life without parole are going to cause a lot of mental anguish.

Give them insulin to keep them alive, yes. Mental anguish is a given, though, and I can't imagine many people are losing sleep over it.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Pretty much. Like, certain inmates could probably improve their quality of life if they got liposuction or laser eye surgery, but prison shouldn't be providing those. Prison is meant to be (at least in part) a punishment.

GRS is not cosmetic surgery

 

[Misha]

People see stuff like this from progressives and feel like we're aliens. Sometimes it's hard to blame them.

You have argued in favor of animal rights on more than a few occasions. Surely you can understand what it's like when you believe that certain beings are being unfairly treated and a large amount of people just don't see it. It's not a cause to give up just because others see it as rediculous.

 

[WipedOut]

What if someone is convicted of the crime of murder, and you inflict "as much mental and physical anguish as possible" on them, only later to find out they were innocent? Does a simple "my bad" make things all better?

 

[poppedcollar69]

Guys, I know a way that will make you feel better about it

This person committed murder in cold blood and you know what they're doing to them in prison? They're gonna cut their dick off. That'll show them

Quoting myself cause I think it could be an useful perspective vis a vis live and let live

 

[More_Badass]

We have to accept some amount of mental anguish existing in our death row and life sentence prisoners. Being on death row or being sentenced to life without parole are going to cause a lot of mental anguish.

Give them insulin to keep them alive, yes. Mental anguish is a given, though, and I can't imagine many people are losing sleep over it.

What if a prisoner sentenced to life without parole is suffering from the mental anguish of bipolar disorder? Would you deny them antipsychotic medication?

Yes, mental anguish from being in prison for life is a given

Mental anguish from medical issues is not

 

[excelsiorlef]

Hypothetical question, the person killed someone near and dear to you. Would you want them sitting in prison getting free elective surgeries?

Why not? This person would continue to live if they don't get the surgery. They might be miserable but they'd live.

"Give me this or I'll kill myself" is not the same as a life-threatening pathology.

A bipolar prisoner would probably "live" without treatment and medication too but they should still get it.

GRS is not elective surgery it is effective treatment

 

[Jobbs]

You have argued in favor of animal rights on more than a few occasions. Surely you can understand what it's like when you believe that certain beings are being unfairly treated and a large amount of people just don't see it. It's not a cause to give up just because others see it as rediculous.

What about a prisoner sentenced to life without parole is suffering from the mental anguish of bipolar disorder? Would you deny them antipsychotic medication?

Yes, mental anguish from being in prison for life is a given

Mental anguish from medical issues is not

I guess this is just where we have a philosophical difference that isn't specifically about trans rights.

If you killed the father of little children and are going away for life, I don't care about your mental status. I just don't.

 

[Kaelan]

The argument would be that's no different than any other type of medical care provided to prisoners, if a prisoner has cancer the tax-payer has to foot the bill for their treatment. If they have a mental illness the taxpayer pays for their pills and/or therapy.

That said, this seems like it's going too far.

No different? I'm pretty sure sex reassignment cost way more then chemotherapy, while chemo would be needed for someone with cancer to live. I gotta say this is too far..

 

[excelsiorlef]

I guess this is just where we have a philosophical difference that isn't specifically about trans rights.

If you killed the father of little children and are going away for life, I don't care about your mental status. I just don't.

So you'd deny them treatment and medication for bipolar disorder as well then?

 

[TVexperto]

well its a first step but shouldnt tax payers pay for everyones healthcare like here in europe?

 

[Jobbs]

So you'd deny them treatment and medication for bipolar disorder as well then?

Yes.

Rather, I'm indifferent. I don't care.

 

[Butterfly Witch]

No different? I'm pretty sure sex reassignment cost way more then chemotherapy, while chemo would be needed for someone with cancer to live. I gotta say this is too far..

SRS is anywhere between $25k and $50k depending on the surgeon. Chemotherapy literally runs in the tens of thousands.

 

[Kaelan]

SRS is anywhere between $25k and $50k depending on the surgeon. Chemotherapy literally runs in the tens of thousands.

Fair enough. I figured that sex reassignment would be complex and difficult thus costing more. That's interesting

 

[excelsiorlef]

Quoting myself cause I think it could be an useful perspective vis a vis live and let live

Why would you think that comment ought to be highlighted. It trivializes and mocks trans women

It's also inaccurate the penis is not cut off. It is inverted. The material recycled if you will.

 

[metalslimer]

No different? I'm pretty sure sex reassignment cost way more then chemotherapy, while chemo would be needed for someone with cancer to live. I gotta say this is too far..

Wrong chemo costs much more. Even still a lifetime of psychiatric medications are probably comparable to the costs of this surgery. The cost issue is one that is overblown so people feel better about there argument because once you take away the cost aspect people are really saying they want this woman to suffer

 

[collige]

I guess this is just where we have a philosophical difference that isn't specifically about trans rights.

If you killed the father of little children and are going away for life, I don't care about your mental status. I just don't.

Fortunately for us, the law does. To quote the Supreme Court once again:

deliberate indifference to serious medical needs of prisoners constitutes the 'unnecessary and wanton infliction of pain'...proscribed by the Eighth Amendment.

 

[More_Badass]

I guess this is just where we have a philosophical difference that isn't specifically about trans rights.

If you killed the father of little children and are going away for life, I don't care about your mental status. I just don't.

That's the thing. Emotions don't dictate what is morally or humanely right by law. Those are the immutable regardless of how you feel, or care or don't care

 

[excelsiorlef]

Yes.

Rather, I'm indifferent. I don't care.

Great since you don't care we'll just continue giving prisoners medical treatment

 

[Ms.Galaxy]

Fair enough. I figured that sex reassignment would be complex and difficult thus costing more. That's interesting

Well it is just one organ they have to work with, the procedure is rather straight forward. Chemotherapy, now that's more complex. It can take weeks for the treatment to be fully done, and it has to be done under constant supervision.

 

[StopMakingSense]

No different? I'm pretty sure sex reassignment cost way more then chemotherapy, while chemo would be needed for someone with cancer to live. I gotta say this is too far..

Since the penal system is on the hook for healthcare for people in for life, EOL medical care is pretty much going to far eclipse everything.

And in most cases Chemo will easily cost more than SRS. My chemo was about 20k per round.

 

[HazySaiyan]

I think this is a better way of putting it.

Blame the system for not offering those services to the general population then. Denying this person proper treatment doesn't magically give it to somebody else.

 

[Platy]

[edit] If people are ignoring the 8th Amendment can we ignore their 1st amendment ? [/edit]

Fair enough. I figured that sex reassignment would be complex and difficult thus costing more. That's interesting

It is still a once thing while chemo can take years and years and include surgeries to remove tumors and more chemo and drugs and ...

 

[WipedOut]

So you'd deny them treatment and medication for bipolar disorder as well then?

I would deny them (FREE) elective surgery, getting mental treatment instead I would agree to. ( for the murderer in the OP)

Maybe they can get a GoFundMe together to get the surgery, I would donate money to that just for that fact they are not trying to use government money to get a free surgery.

 

[Butterfly Witch]

Fair enough. I figured that sex reassignment would be complex and difficult thus costing more. That's interesting

It takes time and skill but it's hardy extremely difficult or more complicated than most other surgeries.


Another important point to take notice is that cancer is much more likely to happen, about 14 million people in the US alone, while transgender people are about 1.4 million people within the US.

If SRS were to be subsidized by insurance or governmental plans it would literally cost pennies to the dollar.

 

[Platy]

Ok ... lets go by your people's rules.

Lets pretend she does not get SRS.

So she must be moved to a women's prison while still having her penis, right ?

 

[collige]

I would deny them (FREE) elective surgery, getting mental treatment instead I would agree to. ( for the murderer in the OP)

Maybe they can get a GoFundMe together to get the surgery, I would donate money to that just for that fact they are not trying to use government money to get a free surgery.

Medical treatment is medical treatment. This dichotomy people keep making between "mental" care and surgeries is completely pointless. Being prescribed medication is just as much a physical treatment as going under the knife.

 

[metalslimer]

I would deny them (FREE) elective surgery, getting mental treatment instead I would agree to. ( for the murderer in the OP)

Maybe they can get a GoFundMe together to get the surgery, I would donate money to that just for that fact they are not trying to use government money to get a free surgery.

You do realize that SRS is medical treatment? And you do realize that you idea of mental treatment costs a shitload of money?

Stop using the money argument.

 

[dave is ok]

That's the thing. Emotions don't dictate what is morally or humanely right by law. Those are the immutable regardless of how you feel, or care or don't care

If this standard were actually followed, we wouldn't have a private health care system in this country.

 

[HazySaiyan]

Ok ... lets go by your people's rules.

Lets pretend she does not get SRS.

So she must be moved to a women's prison while still having her penis, right ?

I think some of the people in this thread would just rather she be kept in a men's prison and let her suffer the abuse that would inevitably entail.

 

[Platy]

I think some of the people in this thread would just rather she be kept in a men's prison and let her suffer the abuse that would inevitably entail.

but ... but... everyone is saying that surgery costs a lot !

Transfering the prisoner is almost free compared to that !

 

[excelsiorlef]

I would deny them (FREE) elective surgery, getting mental treatment instead I would agree to. ( for the murderer in the OP)

Maybe they can get a GoFundMe together to get the surgery, I would donate money to that just for that fact they are not trying to use government money to get a free surgery.

It is not elective therapy it is treatment. The same way a proper drug regiment treats bipolar disorder

 

[Jobbs]

That's the thing. Emotions don't dictate what is morally or humanely right by law. Those are the immutable regardless of how you feel, or care or don't care

The law is mush. The 8th amendment can be and is interpreted so broadly that it doesn't mean anything. Lethal injection can and does go wrong in such horrific ways as to be shocking to the conscience. On the other hand, you could make a strong argument that the very act of imprisonment is cruel and unusual. There are probably cases where being imprisoned or being around other inmates does feel like torture, especially for people with certain anxiety disorders.

I don't agree that prison should never be punitive. In some cases, it should be. Not everyone can be redeemed. There are things you can't come back from. Some people are monsters, and how we treat monsters is only a reflection of us because there's nothing that can be done for them.

Me? I'm not concerned about monsters.

This line of discussion should probably be tabled from here, though, because it has become so broad that it's not really related to trans rights.

 

[Hollycat]

I can't imagine how tough life would be for a trans prisoner. Two of the last human categories where it's still socially acceptable to openly question whether you deserve basic human rights at the same time.

I am curious about how "necessary" reassignment surgery goes - I know that a lot of trans people just transition with hormones and don't bother "going all the way." Is that the sort of thing that differs by preference, or is it purely a practical/economic concern for people?

Obviously, offering a half-measure would be kind of a shit deal, so the prison would need to put everything on the table, but I'm curious if some trans people - if offered reassignment surgery for "free" - would turn it down.

A lot of people don't bother going "all the way" because they just can't afford it. Trans people tend to have the lowest average income of anyone, face some of the greatest hate, and often can't even find somewhere to live or work.

 

[collige]

The law is mush. The 8th amendment can be and is interpreted so broadly that it doesn't mean anything. Lethal injection can and does go wrong in such horrific ways as to be shocking to the conscience. On the other hand, you could make a strong argument that the very act of imprisonment is cruel and unusual. There are probably cases where being imprisoned or being around other inmates does feel like torture, especially for people with certain anxiety disorders.

If only there were some sort of board of officials or judges that could be trusted to make definitive interpretations of the Constitution.

 

[Jobbs]

If only there were some sort of board of officials or judges that could be trusted to make definitive interpretations of the Constitution.

Let me know if we get one

 

[excelsiorlef]

Let me know if we get one

She got the surgery so

 

[Future]

Ok ... lets go by your people's rules.

Lets pretend she does not get SRS.

So she must be moved to a women's prison while still having her penis, right ?

Heh, that's a tougher call IMO. I mean if doctors make the call then it would seem that she should go to a women's prison regardless of surgery correct? But a woman in prison with male genitalia may be a weird topic to some for the obvious implications. Technically it shouldn't, but yeah. Public would have a lot to say

 

[Oppo]

This is actually a much less interesting question, coming from Canada, where we have no death penalty and full gov't healthcare. Of course prisoners should have access to SRS.

Besides the economic argument is pretty terrible considering how many people actually would need this, in pure numbers (a fraction of a fraction of the populace) and the actual cost of the surgery.

Now, politically, I think it's incredibly fraught, no matter what the medical community says, for all the reasons we've seen in this thread. Emotional arguments, basically.

oh and hey, look what a quick Google turned up – timely:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/federal-prisons-csc-transgender-inmates-1.3909504

Canada's prison system is revamping its policies around transgender inmates amid growing calls to place offenders based on gender identity, not genitalia.

Scott Bardsley, spokesman for Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale, confirmed that Correctional Service Canada will amend its guidelines for accommodation policy and gender reassignment surgery early in the new year.

He said all Canadians should be safe to be themselves, even if they're behind bars.

"Our government believes that everyone can live according to their gender identity and express their gender as they choose and be protected from discrimination," Bardsley told CBC News. "CSC is committed to ensuring that inmates who identify as trans have the same protection, dignity and treatment as other inmates."

I have a couple of issues with C-16 (still don't agree with forced pronouns) but this all sounds like a huge step in the right direction.

 

[PSqueak]

I got a question:

Why does a prisoner gets a tax payer funded SRS but the common american tax paying trans person does not?

I think that has a lot to do with some of these replies, i mean, some criminal gets her transition for free while law abiding trans people get a bajillion roadblocks for theirs? How is that fair?

 

[collige]

I got a question:

Why does a prisoner gets a tax payer funded SRS but the common american tax paying trans person does not?

I think that has a lot to do with some of these replies, i mean, some criminal gets her transition for free while law abiding trans people get a bajillion roadblocks for theirs? How is that fair?

Because the government has a higher level of responsibility to people directly in their care. This is the same reason why conviected criminals get free food and housing while other people have to go to shelters and soup kitchens, but no one complains about that.

 

[PSqueak]

Because the government has a higher level of responsibility to people directly in their care. This is the same reason why conviected criminals get free food and housing while other people have to go to shelters and soup kitchens, but no one complains about that.

I think it's an unfair comparison, if you're depriving someone of their basic freedom due to crimes, not feeding them would be inhumane, a SRS is not on the same level as a need as food and shelter, that's why it's jarring that a criminal gets it for free with tax payer funds, while the actual tax payers get road blocks up the wazoo.

 

[Mailbox]

I think it's an unfair comparison, if you're depriving someone of their basic freedom due to crimes, not feeding them would be inhumane, a SRS is not on the same level as a need as food and shelter, that's why it's jarring that a criminal gets it for free with tax payer funds, while the actual tax payers get road blocks up the wazoo.

the idea of "if its not for us it shouldn't be for them" is really quite dumb tbh. not happy about it? maybe try making it so that people outside of prisons get the treatment easily too.

the "we're fucked, so they should be fucked more" mentality only leaves people fucked.

 

[Kafein]

Are people advocating we should be paying for surgeries for anyone unhappy with their bodies (read-just about everyone)? Or only for criminals? How unhappy does someone have to be?

Depression caused by unhappiness with their body, that is the medical ailment we are talking about here, correct?

Banned

 

[Got]

the idea of "if its not for us it shouldn't be for them" is really quite dumb tbh. not happy about it? maybe try making it so that people outside of prisons get the treatment easily too.

the "we're fucked, so they should be fucked more" mentality only leaves people fucked.

yeah, the empathy issue in this country is the biggest hurdle to overcome. Seems like too many are incapable of it.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I agree, and I have nothing but sympathy for people who are living with this and I can't possibly begin to understand what it's like.

But... This is a murderer. She kidnapped a 33 year old man, held him for ransom, and murdered him. The man was a father and his children would never see him again. She is serving a life sentence without the possibility of parole.

I agree there are times when there is value in rehabilitating an inmate for reintroduction into society. You deserve a second chance in a great number of cases.

Being put away for life is more than enough to cause you great mental anguish -- As it should. In cases like this I don't particularly care if the murderer's life long struggle is resolved or not. Not all lives have value. Not everyone can be redeemed.

People see stuff like this from progressives and feel like we're aliens. Sometimes it's hard to blame them.

What happens if someone murders someone whose life had no value?

 

[rambis]

Good. Surprised it took this long tbh.



Why do you consider SRS to be less important than any other kind of medical surgery?

This has probably been answered but yeah there are various types of surgery with varying levels of importance. This wasn't a life saving operation, alot closer to being cosmetic. So yeah, I do think its fair to question why exactly are tax payers paying.

 

[Straight Edge]

This wasn't a life saving operation, alot closer to being cosmetic.

TEARING MY HAIR OUT

 

[excelsiorlef]

This has probably been answered but yeah there are various types of surgery with varying levels of importance. This wasn't a life saving operation, alot closer to being cosmetic. So yeah, I do think its fair to question why exactly are tax payers paying.

It is essentially the same as providing a prisoner medication for treating something like bipolar disorder.

It is not and never has been cosmetic surgery. It is medical treatment

 

[Matty77]

See this thread is still going, and still full of fuckery. It's disappointing.