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California Funds First Prisoner Sex-Reassignment Surgery and Move to Women's Prison

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The answer to someone trampling on human rights isn't to trample on human rights....

That isn't punishment it's vengeance...

Apparently me not wanting to just hand over whatever a criminal demands is me trampling on human rights.

Is it directly life threatening to stop those pills? Until a court hearing for example? Is it as drastic as say a criminal with a heart condition that needs their pills?
 
A criminal, immediately after throwing fellow human rights out the window, demands something for themselves that isn't directly life threatening doesn't strike me as a "we better get right on it stat" response, no.

I just wanted to add a local relevant event to this thread TBH.



Define very dangerous? Is it heart attack pills being stopped dangerous?

But it is life threatening. Are you asking for justice, vengeance or retribution?

Think about it, by providing this person with the medicine that they require they have a much higher change of rehabilitation and re-integration with society, not to mention keep them healthy and alive to endure the consequences of their actions.

Apparently me not wanting to just hand over whatever a criminal demands is me trampling on human rights.

Is it directly life threatening to stop those pills? Until a court hearing for example? Is it as drastic as say a criminal with a heart condition that needs their pills?

Yes. It's also cruel and unusual punishment. You're literally mentally torturing them, how can they represent themselves in a court of law if they are not of healthy mind?
 

FyreWulff

Member
A criminal, immediately after throwing fellow human rights out the window, demands something for themselves

Because to get ongoing medical treatment you have to file paperwork with the court, even for aspirin. Even if you aren't convicted yet.

Until a court hearing for example? Is it as drastic as say a criminal with a heart condition that needs their pills?

Court hearings can take months to a year to happen
 
Apparently me not wanting to just hand over whatever a criminal demands is me trampling on human rights.

Is it directly life threatening to stop those pills? Until a court hearing for example? Is it as drastic as say a criminal with a heart condition that needs their pills?
If somebody relapses in to gender dysphoria, yes it is potentially life threatening. And how does denying somebody hormone therapy help somebody else with a heart condition?
 

Laughing Banana

Weeping Pickle
No wonder Abu Ghuraib is a thing.

Since so many people seem a-okay with people getting trampled and tortured (and yes, the mental anguish she would have suffered without the treatment IS torture) once they are behind bars.
 

Trident

Loaded With Aspartame
Does anyone have links to data re: suicide rates post-transition? I'm having trouble finding them, although the pre-transition suicide rates are pretty easy to find.
 
Apparently me not wanting to just hand over whatever a criminal demands is me trampling on human rights.

Is it directly life threatening to stop those pills? Until a court hearing for example? Is it as drastic as say a criminal with a heart condition that needs their pills?

It is medical treatment, it's not whatever they demand...

Literally this is no different then anyone else with other health issues being booked and asking that their medication be continued...

The only difference is with her being trans writers like the one in the "article" you posted can drudge up a ton of outrage by playing up the "Otherness" of trans folk...
 
So by the same token who immediately pays for this guys teeth the axe hit or the medical bills for surgery or pain pills for the female victim etc.

I'll bet my bottom dollar the victims here get far less treatment/benefits than what posters on this page alone are requesting for the criminal.

Doesn't seem right to me at all.
 

FyreWulff

Member
So by the same token who immediately pays for this guys teeth the axe hit or the medical bills for surgery or pain pills for the female victim etc.

I'll bet my bottom dollar the victims here get far less treatment/benefits than what posters on this page alone are requesting for the criminal.

Doesn't seem right to me at all.

The state, who then extracts restitution out of the convicted.

This isn't hard at all.
 
So by the same token who immediately pays for this guys teeth the axe hit or the medical bills for surgery or pain pills for the female victim etc.

I'll bet my bottom dollar the victims here get far less treatment/benefits than what posters on this page alone are requesting for the criminal.

Doesn't seem right to me at all.
I thought you had a universal healthcare system in Australia?

Besides, if the state incarcerates somebody then they're the states responsibility. If this person needed antibiotics for something would you have them be denied that?
 
So by the same token who immediately pays for this guys teeth the axe hit or the medical bills for surgery or pain pills for the female victim etc.

I'll bet my bottom dollar the victims here get far less treatment/benefits than what posters on this page alone are requesting for the criminal.

Doesn't seem right to me at all.

You keep acting like anyone who wants prisoners to have health care don't want it for everyone else too...

I'm going to point out you are the only one arguing to take healthcare away from someone.
 
I don't know why so many people in this thread think it's a zero-sum game where if you give a transperson healthcare you are by definition denying it to somebody else. That's not how it works.
 

Beefy

Member
I don't know why so many people in this thread think it's a zero-sum game where if you give a transperson healthcare you are by definition denying it to somebody else. That's not how it works.

I did say about 20 pages back. People should be blaming the goverment for not helping other trans people out and not the prisoners.
 

Trident

Loaded With Aspartame
I don't know why so many people in this thread think it's a zero-sum game where if you give a transperson healthcare you are by definition denying it to somebody else. That's not how it works.

Why are you surprised at the initial reactions? Most people:

A) never think about the costs of imprisonment
B) don't have a strong civics background
C) have no personal familiarity with gender dysmorphia

These are complex issues and aren't immediate intuitive.
 
I never said take all healthcare away, don't know why y'all read it so black and white. I have to question the extreme necessity of surgeries required or pills for trans criminals in the face of the victims or average Joe public going without.

Fuck me for wanting good people served first right?
 

Ms.Galaxy

Member
So by the same token who immediately pays for this guys teeth the axe hit or the medical bills for surgery or pain pills for the female victim etc.

I'll bet my bottom dollar the victims here get far less treatment/benefits than what posters on this page alone are requesting for the criminal.

Doesn't seem right to me at all.

Considering it's Australia, the government, since it has universal healthcare. So I bet, no, I know for a fact, they are likely getting treated just fine.

Look, I'm getting tired of the whole "but what about the victim" rhetoric, as cold heart as I am, I do have sympathy for the victims but there's a reason they are not the judge, jury, and executioner. They are not involved in this situation, they got justice, their opinion is irrelevant to how the prisoner is treated.

The prisoner was found guilty, she is serving her sentence as agreed by the law. They have forfeit their rights to freedom and are now placed under the care of the state. In the United States, the government must care for the prisoners as commanded by the constitution, that includes insuring they remain alive and healthy. To deny a necessary treatment for a medical condition is to break the law as it's considered cruel and unusual punishment. In California, SRS and transgender health is considered necessary, as the Supreme Courts decided back in 2001. You cannot deny her of that treatment.
 
I never said take all healthcare away, don't know why y'all read it so black and white. I have to question the extreme necessity of surgeries required or pills for trans criminals in the face of the victims or average Joe public going without.

Fuck me for wanting good people served first right?

Your problem here is thinking that this is a matter of one or the other. Why can't both law abiding citizens and criminal citizens have access to healthcare? Why should there be a "list"? If people need help and healthcare then just give it to them.
 

Beefy

Member
I never said take all healthcare away, don't know why y'all read it so black and white. I have to question the extreme necessity of surgeries required or pills for trans criminals in the face of the victims or average Joe public going without.

Fuck me for wanting good people served first right?

So you are basically saying. You are willing a person in prison to suffer mental and physical pain every day for the rest of their life, just because the government won't help other trans people out?
 
I never said take all healthcare away, don't know why y'all read it so black and white. I have to question the extreme necessity of surgeries required or pills for trans criminals in the face of the victims or average Joe public going without.

Fuck me for wanting good people served first right?

Where are you getting this idea that transpeople are pushing other patients to the back of the line or that treating them means the 'average Joe' goes without?
 

A Fish Aficionado

I am going to make it through this year if it kills me
I really don't see any moral qualms. She's still in prison, serving that sentence.
Same as Manning. Except in Manning's case, I would rather have solitary confinement defined as cruel and unusual,under the 8th Amendment.
 
Considering it's Australia, the government, since it has universal healthcare. So I bet, no, I know for a fact, they are likely getting treated just fine.

Look, I'm getting tired of the whole "but what about the victim" rhetoric, as cold heart as I am, I do have sympathy for the victims but there's a reason they are not the judge, jury, and executioner. They are not involved in this situation, they got justice, their opinion is irrelevant to how the prisoner is treated.

The prisoner was found guilty, she is serving her sentence as agreed by the law. They have forfeit their rights to freedom and are now placed under the care of the state. In the United States, the government must care for the prisoners as commanded by the constitution, that includes insuring they remain alive and healthy. To deny a necessary treatment for a medical condition is to break the law as it's considered cruel and unusual punishment. In California, SRS and transgender health is considered necessary, as the Supreme Courts decided back in 2001. You cannot deny her of that treatment.

You think that but the answer is no, it can take 6-12 months to get a claim paid. Basically you have to front the costs yourself until a claim is processed.

http://claimsadvice.com.au/personal-injury/
 
I never said take all healthcare away, don't know why y'all read it so black and white. I have to question the extreme necessity of surgeries required or pills for trans criminals in the face of the victims or average Joe public going without.

Fuck me for wanting good people served first right?

So could you clarify for me where you draw the lines of what kind of health care should be provided to prisoners?

Because you seem to be ok denying trans prisoners the care they need but not others?
 

Beefy

Member
So could you clarify for me where you draw the lines of what kind of health care should be provided to prisoners?

Because you seem to be ok denying trans prisoners the care they need but not others?

I would be fucked if I ever got locked up and the health care was how some in here want it to be. Probably last like a week max.
 
So could you clarify for me where you draw the lines of what kind of health care should be provided to prisoners?

Because you seem to be ok denying trans prisoners the care they need but not others?

If any criminal commits terrible acts and starts with demands immediately I question it, these cases happen to be trans based is all. If human garbage from any walk of life commits terrible acts that harm others I'm inclined question what they require to be paid for.

I'm not transphobic at all, don't put words in my mouth because you don't like my reactions or opinions.

Yes it's directly life threatening: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38562714

Thanks for some actual info, will read.

Oh okay. Not all healthcare. Just the healthcare that is specifically needed by trans people.

Glad to see you being honest about your transphobia, I guess.

This is hot garbage, label someone else thanks. Used to love hanging out with my old boss and his trans woman each Thursday night, some 20 years ago. All of us who worked there did, they were the fun sparks.
 

A Fish Aficionado

I am going to make it through this year if it kills me
I know, I'm trans, but that seems to be the common arguement right after "mah taxes"

Her punishment will stick, but there is no moral imperative in denying transgender rights.
Many see trans people having SRS as surgery that is needed it seems.

Same. I'm not against the surgery or trans rights.

I'm against cruel and unusual punishment.
 
If any criminal commits terrible acts and starts with demands immediately I question it, these cases happen to be trans based is all. If human garbage from any walk of life commits terrible acts that harm others I'm inclined question what they require to be paid for.

I'm not transphobic at all, don't put words in my mouth because you don't like my reactions or opinions.

Are you suggesting that a trans person committed a crime do get healthcare paid for?

You have no right to question a trans person's needs anymore than someone who has PTSD. Criminal or not, people are still people and they deserve to be treated like people.
 
Are you suggesting that a trans person committed a crime do get healthcare paid for?

You have no right to question a trans person's needs anymore than someone who has PTSD. Criminal or not, people are still people and they deserve to be treated like people.

Are you suggesting there aren't limits though? I'm trying to define, or redefine, those limits for myself/morals is all.
 
If any criminal commits terrible acts and starts with demands immediately I question it, these cases happen to be trans based is all. If human garbage from any walk of life commits terrible acts that harm others I'm inclined question what they require to be paid for.

I'm not transphobic at all, don't put words in my mouth because you don't like my reactions or opinions.

Did I call you transphobic?I am asking you to clarify your point of view. You've already said you wouldn't deny all health care but you have heavily implied you'd deny trans health care, I am curious to the extent of what you would like to deny prisoners in terms of health care. Where you draw the line.

I note I am maybe less than charitable with my analysis of your posts given that your first post in here was

Up next for inmate freebies...liposuction, plastic surgery and botox parties. Why should they miss out /s

This trivializes the importance of GRS and hormones to trans folks' health.


It is not demands immediately, the case you cited was her asking to continue the medication she is already on.

Like I said that article sensationalized the hell out of what is standard procedure, if she was on bipolar instead and needed to continue her lithium she'd be have asked for that instead.
 

Beefy

Member
Are you suggesting that a trans person committed a crime do get healthcare paid for?

You have no right to question a trans person's needs anymore than someone who has PTSD. Criminal or not, people are still people and they deserve to be treated like people.

Or maybe suggesting a person suddenly wakes up one day and wants SRS
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
If any criminal commits terrible acts and starts with demands immediately I question it, these cases happen to be trans based is all. If human garbage from any walk of life commits terrible acts that harm others I'm inclined question what they require to be paid for.
That's not how justice and/or healthcare works. The person's crimes has no bearing on their entitlement to healthcare. Also, these "demands" are for HEALTHCARE not fucking luxury. You are the one who compared it to frigging botox...

I'm not transphobic at all, don't put words in my mouth because you don't like my reactions or opinions.
You admit that you are OK with convicts getting healthcare, but are specifically opposed to transgender people receiving the care that they need, despite plenty of people (including several trans folk in this thread) repeating over and over that this care is, indeed, essential to their quality of life and not elective/luxury like plastic surgery.

I'd say you earned the label, despite your blustering denials.

This is hot garbage, label someone else thanks. Used to love hanging out with my old boss and his trans woman each Thursday night, some 20 years ago. All of us who worked there did, they were they fun sparks.

lol the "I'm not racist I have a black friend" argument. Except this time it's even better, "I'm not racist I had a black friend once 20 years ago" lmao
 
Are you suggesting there aren't limits though? I'm trying to define, or redefine, those limits for myself/morals is all.

I'm not suggesting, I'm stating it.

You have to provide medical care to criminals, the 8th Amendment says as much. You have to understand that when you lock someone up you remove their agency and privilege of choice and freedom, much like a child, they become a ward of the state or federal government. This means that the government now has the responsibility to provide healthcare to these people.

Or maybe suggesting a person suddenly wakes up one day and wants SRS

Right? It's like people don't realize that trans people are five times more likely to be assaulted physically and sexually by staff and nine times more likely to be assaulted physically and sexually by other inmates.
 

KRod-57

Banned
I actually don't like this, free people don't even get that kind of healthcare coverage. I'm fine with them allowing the surgery and making the transfer, but why should we have to pay for the transition of an inmate convicted of murder?
 

A Fish Aficionado

I am going to make it through this year if it kills me
Complete and total waste of tax payer money. Criminals shouldn't get special treatment. Disgusting.

What is special about it?
I actually don't like this, free people don't even get that kind of healthcare coverage. I'm fine with them allowing the surgery and making the transfer, but why should we have to pay for the transition of an inmate convicted of murder?

You should. You just established universal healthcare.
 

RowdyReverb

Member
That is very progressive. Too progressive for most of the country I'd wager. Also brings up the bizarre situation of the government providing healthcare for criminals but not free citizens
 
I actually don't like this, free people don't even get that kind of healthcare coverage. I'm fine with them allowing the surgery and making the transfer, but why should we have to pay for the transition of an inmate convicted of murder?

You don't pay for anything, we are talking less than a penny per person in California for this. The solution to better healthcare for all isn't to take away healthcare from others even those you think don't deserve it.

Complete and total waste of tax payer money. Criminals shouldn't get special treatment. Disgusting.

GRS is healthcare, prisoners get healthcare, it's not special healthcare it is healthcare. It is the same as lithium for someone with bipolar disorder, or any other sort of treatment/medication for a prisoners with any other sort of health issue.
 
I actually don't like this, free people don't even get that kind of healthcare coverage. I'm fine with them allowing the surgery and making the transfer, but why should we have to pay for the transition of an inmate convicted of murder?

Complete and total waste of tax payer money. Criminals shouldn't get special treatment. Disgusting.

Because these people are wards of the state/federal government, therefore it's their responsibility to pay for their medical bills. If you ever have a child or if you already have one, same thing applies. You're responsible for them, you pay their medical bills.


Really, how can people be mad at criminals for getting life saving healthcare instead of being mad at the government for treating their citizens worse than criminals?

Blame health insurances for intentionally barring trans people from getting healthcare that they need. Blame the government for not cracking down on this discriminatory behavior.
 

FyreWulff

Member
I actually don't like this, free people don't even get that kind of healthcare coverage. I'm fine with them allowing the surgery and making the transfer, but why should we have to pay for the transition of an inmate convicted of murder?

C78RK9P.gif


or how about we make it so healthcare is universal

also the fact that when you decide to make someone a ward of the state, you are now responsible for their care
 

MUnited83

For you.
Complete and total waste of tax payer money. Criminals shouldn't get special treatment. Disgusting.

I'm not sure what kind of world you live in, but prisoners do get health care, they are not just dumped into a closed box and left there do die. That isn't special treatment.
 
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