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[Gordon Shumway]

If someone wants to say whether they agree or not with what their government spends money on, they're allowed. That's good enough motivation. This isn't really an argument.

So um..you ever gonna answer why your response to what I posted ended up on taxes? Nah..

This thread

Agreed. We need an alternate version with a phone instead of a PC..

.

I know I'm going WAY off topic here, but this thread is all sorts of ridiculous anyway. Is your avatar a cat wearing a cowboy hat or a cat in front of the Batman symbol?

 

[HazySaiyan]

Lol holy shit dude, a sex change is not life threatening.

Actually it is, the overall suicide rate amongst transpeople is about 41%. This drops to just 4.1% amongst post-op individuals. It literally saves lives.

https://lizdaybyday.wordpress.com/2015/01/02/the-myth-of-post-op-regret-and-suicidality/

Even if it wasn't life threatening, it's still a proven treatment to a real illness. There's no need to deny it to people.

Comparing a prison inmate as a ward of the state to a child and their parent is a bit of a stretch. 1st the child is a.... Child! They literally need someone to look after them. 2nd they haven't broken the law ( in this case murdered someone) and 3rd the child is generally paid for by the earning the parents make, not tax payer dollars.

If the state incarcerates somebody then they are responsible for that person's health and welfare, we don't just leave prisoners in a ditch somewhere to fend for themselves. Not only that but allowing somebody to live with mental issues brought about by dysphoria is cruel and unusual punishment. They're already being punished by being in prison, why do you want to torment them even further?

I have no problem with someone getting a surgery or whatever else the hell the else people want to do themselves, but not with tax dollars. It's a complete and tot waste of money. For a prisoner. Who is serving a life sentence. Smh.

See above.

Edit: not individually responded to all of you. I think it's a waste of tax money and it's fine if you don't agree, but I see it as special treatment for a prisoner. It's not life and death situation no matter how you try and spin the importance of identity or whatever else. This person sacrificed rights of those kinds when he/she murdered another human being.

No they sacrifice their civil rights when they commit a crime, they don't sacrifice their human rights. Last time I checked prisoners are still human.

Like, if you're not getting that part of it, you are truly lost.

Oh just stop.

 

[HazySaiyan]

Its stupid to ask because thats not how a budget work. Funds are allocated at the beginning of the FY and used through out the year. California is June to July so we are smack dab in the middle of the year, meaning there should be at least half the budget(not really) I.E funds shouldnt have run out yet, so no this surgery in of itself has not denied anybody from getting coverage.

The problem is, as I've already pointed out is that patients with far more serious complications are often neglected by this same system that is allowing her to have her expensive non-life threatening surgery take place.

If the funds haven't denied anybody else coverage (as people keep trying to claim) then what's the issue?

And please show me these examples, I've gone through your post history and can't find them.

 

[rambis]

If the funds haven't denied anybody else coverage (as people keep trying to claim) then what's the issue?

And please show me these examples, I've gone through your post history and can't find them.

Its just a few pages back.

No, its not. People try everyday to get the surgery with no prior treatment, the problem is that no one will pay for it unless there was weeks and weeks of documented treatment which I already said in my prior post. I know this because I know quite a few trans individuals and even had a close family member go through the process.

So please spare me the ignorant bullshit.

I'm taking issue with this due to the problem nation wide of prisoners not being afforded medical treatment when needed.

Example from CA



There's levels to medical complications, point blank. It this state you have diabetics who can't even get an acceptable diet but there's 20-30k for SRS? Its not adding up...

I don't know how to explain the issue of 20k or so of the prison's budget being allocated for SRS instead of say proper treatment for a diabetic any more clearly. You're either gonna understand the dynamics of a yearly budget or not.

 

[Prototype]

Actually it is, the overall suicide rate amongst transpeople is about 41%. This drops to just 4.1% amongst post-op individuals. It literally saves lives.

https://lizdaybyday.wordpress.com/2015/01/02/the-myth-of-post-op-regret-and-suicidality/

Even if it wasn't life threatening, it's still a proven treatment to a real illness. There's no need to deny it to people.

If the state incarcerates somebody then they are responsible for that person's health and welfare, we don't just leave prisoners in a ditch somewhere to fend for themselves. Not only that but allowing somebody to live with mental issues brought about by dysphoria is cruel and unusual punishment. They're already being punished by being in prison, why do you want to torment them even further?

See above.

No they sacrifice their civil rights when they commit a crime, they don't sacrifice their human rights. Last time I checked prisoners are still human.

Oh just stop.

Why would anyone care if a murderer commits suicide?

And ya,
I saw that Facebook video about the suicide rates for grabs people too. Those statistics are always the first to get thrown around. It's almost like you have a playbook. And that's fine as long as tax payer money isn't paying for it.

 

[Ray Wonder]

So um..you ever gonna answer why your response to what I posted ended up on taxes? Nah..

You're asking how it affects someone's life. Taxpayers supply money to the government. It doesn't matter if there's a surplus, having an opinion is vital to a democracy.

Also, why do you care why they have an opinion? Just explain why their opinion is wrong.

 

[Ekai]

Lol holy shit dude, a sex change is not life threatening.

Comparing a prison inmate as a ward of the state to a child and their parent is a bit of a stretch. 1st the child is a.... Child! They literally need someone to look after them. 2nd they haven't broken the law ( in this case murdered someone) and 3rd the child is generally paid for by the earning the parents make, not tax payer dollars.

I have no problem with someone getting a surgery or whatever else the hell the else people want to do themselves, but not with tax dollars. It's a complete and tot waste of money. For a prisoner. Who is serving a life sentence. Smh.



Edit: not individually responded to all of you. I think it's a waste of tax money and it's fine if you don't agree, but I see it as special treatment for a prisoner. It's not life and death situation no matter how you try and spin the importance of identity or whatever else. This person sacrificed rights of those kinds when he/she murdered another human being.
Like, if you're not getting that part of it, you are truly lost.

Nice to know how little you think of trans-individuals and the care that they literally essentially need that isn't "special treatment". You are truly fucking lost if you refuse to at all educate yourself on the facts and the medical professional view of this. Especially if you think your shitty hot take is original and hasn't been debunked 50 times already in this topic.


Keep on being transphobic Gaf. You're really proving how little you think of us as a community with this topic.

 

[HazySaiyan]

Its just a few pages back.




I don't know how to explain the issue of 20k or so of the prison's budget being allocated for SRS instead of say proper treatment for a diabetic any more clearly. You're either gonna understand the dynamics of a yearly budget or not.

Your examples are an issue of management and an abuse of power by prison staff, it has nothing to do with budgetary restrictions.

 

[HazySaiyan]

Why would anyone care if a murderer commits suicide?

And ya,
I saw that Facebook video about the suicide rates for grabs people too. Those statistics are always the first to get thrown around. It's almost like you have a playbook. And that's fine as long as tax payer money isn't paying for it.

And this is why we have checks and balances, to protect people from people like you.

 

[Ketkat]

Why would anyone care if a murderer commits suicide?

And ya,
I saw that Facebook video about the suicide rates for grabs people too. Those statistics are always the first to get thrown around. It's almost like you have a playbook. And that's fine as long as tax payer money isn't paying for it.

So you keep asking "Prove its life threatenig!" And when people do, you say "Well, who cares if she kills herself?" Do you hear yourself?

 

[Ekai]

Its just a few pages back.




I don't know how to explain the issue of 20k or so of the prison's budget being allocated for SRS instead of say proper treatment for a diabetic any more clearly. You're either gonna understand the dynamics of a yearly budget or not.

The Budget accounts for a lot of shit. Plus denying a trans person their care is pretty damn fucking cheap in comparison. We've literally had this exact same argument already in this topic....numerous times and transphobes like you were wrong then too. You're either going to understand the costs and accept that you're showing yourself to be highly transphobic if trans-healthcare is where you draw the line or not.

 

[rambis]

Your examples are an issue of management and an abuse of power by prison staff, it has nothing to do with budgetary restrictions.

It doesn't matter what the reason is, we don't even know what grounds they are denied treatment on so idk how you figure that. Its the fact that they were denied treatment.

The Budget accounts for a lot of shit. Plus denying a trans person their care is pretty damn fucking cheap in comparison. We've literally had this exact same argument already in this topic....numerous times and transphobes like you were wrong then too. You're either going to understand the costs and accept that you're showing yourself to be highly transphobic if trans-healthcare is where you draw the line or not.

I'm not drawing a line at trans health, Im saying take care of the people with more serious complications first. Which routinely doesn't happen. And maybe help the non-murderers first.

 

[Big Blue]

The Budget accounts for a lot of shit. Plus denying a trans person their care is pretty damn fucking cheap in comparison. We've literally had this exact same argument already in this topic....numerous times and transphobes like you were wrong then too. You're either going to understand the costs and accept that you're showing yourself to be highly transphobic if trans-healthcare is where you draw the line or not.

Having a lack of sympathy for a convicted murderer is not the same as being transphobic.

 

[GhostTrick]

The Budget accounts for a lot of shit. Plus denying a trans person their care is pretty damn fucking cheap in comparison. We've literally had this exact same argument already in this topic....numerous times and transphobes like you were wrong then too. You're either going to understand the costs and accept that you're showing yourself to be highly transphobic if trans-healthcare is where you draw the line or not.

I feel like people not feeling for that woman as more to do with being a convicted murderer though.

 

[Prototype]

Nice to know how little you think of trans-individuals and the care that they literally essentially need that isn't "special treatment". You are truly fucking lost if you refuse to at all educate yourself on the facts and the medical professional view of this. Especially if you think your shitty hot take is original and hasn't been debunked 50 times already in this topic.


Keep on being transphobic Gaf. You're really proving how little you think of us as a community with this topic.

This is a perfect example of someone getting emotional and reactionary.

I Have no problem with trans peeps, I have a problem with criminals who've commited major crimes- like taking a life getting anything in return via public funds. It's a luxury no matter how you slice it. The criminal should have thought about this before he killed another person. He's not gonna die if he doesn't get this. And if he kills himself, that's a choice.

 

[HazySaiyan]

It doesn't matter what the reason is, we don't even know what grounds they are denied treatment on so idk how you figure that. Its the fact that they were denied treatment.

Did you even read your own example?

Overley, still denies Mr. B the second mattress on the grounds that in the ”civilian world" people do not need double mattresses. Title 15's ”Durable Medical Equipment Policy Procedure" states that approved medical devices should be allowed in cells, but it is not followed at Corcoran.

These prisoners being denied proper treatment is disgusting and something needs to be done about it, but I fail to see how this malpractice suddenly means SRS should be denied to be somebody who needs it. Are you wanting to deny this woman treatment out of spite? Just 'cause?

 

[Ekai]

Having a lack of sympathy for a convicted murderer is not the same as being transphobic.

If you don't fucking get it and haven't read the topic, stop. Seriously, just fucking stop and read the topic.
So many people have said our essential health care is 1) not important. 2) cosmetic and elective. 3) that other prisoners should get their care but not trans individuals. 4) some have even implied that trans suicide rates are fake/not as dire 5) rather than respond to the human issue, they respond to "this trans person got healthcare!" as though it's the fucking end of the world for budgetary reasons despite them being utterly wrong. 6) prisoners still get healthcare. it's in our constitution. I don't give a fuck what you personally think. 7) have acted like they know more about our healthcare than us and the medical professionals. 8) etc. etc. etc. etc.

This topic is nothing but an excuse for people to expose how transphobic they are. Point blank. There is no wiggle room with this.

This is a perfect example of someone getting emotional and reactionary.

I Have no problem with trans peeps, I have a problem with criminals who've commited major crimes- like taking a life getting anything in return via public funds. It's a luxury no matter how you slice it. The criminal should have thought about this before he killed another person. He's not gonna die if he doesn't get this. And if he kills himself, that's a choice.

Our healthcare is not a luxury, you transphobe. I'm responding to your steadfast stupidity in the face of trans people who know a million times better than you and the views of our medical professionals. You clearly have a problem with trans individuals if you call our essential. health. care. an unnecessary luxury. You are essentially arguing you are fine with the mental anguish we go through and fine with suicide. Do you not get how fucked in the head that is?

I'm not drawing a line at trans health, Im saying take care of the people with more serious complications first. Which routinely doesn't happen. And maybe help the non-murderers first.

1) That is quite literally drawing a line on trans-healthcare. Especially since your shitty "the high costs!" argument has already been debunked.
2) You are implying our healthcare isn't serious. Do not fucking get how that reveals how transphobic you're being?
3) The prison healthcare system and ours is entirely unrelated. Denying this person theirs won't get me mine. This has also been covered time and time again in this topic. Fucking read the topic.

 

[Platy]

It is basic human rights anyway.

You are not less human if you get arrested. If you get hurt you deserve medical care, even if it is not life threatening

 

[GhostTrick]

This is a perfect example of someone getting emotional and reactionary.

I Have no problem with trans peeps, I have a problem with criminals who've commited major crimes- like taking a life getting anything in return via public funds. It's a luxury no matter how you slice it. The criminal should have thought about this before he killed another person. He's not gonna die if he doesn't get this. And if he kills himself, that's a choice.

I wouldn't call it a luxury though as it's been proven how it impacts health. Also, sorry but your post reads like rather ill intended with the misgendering.

 

[WipedOut]

So real talk, Why does He need elective surgery again?

 

[HazySaiyan]

This is a perfect example of someone getting emotional and reactionary.

I Have no problem with trans peeps, I have a problem with criminals who've commited major crimes- like taking a life getting anything in return via public funds. It's a luxury no matter how you slice it. The criminal should have thought about this before he killed another person. He's not gonna die if he doesn't get this. And if he kills himself, that's a choice.

If you don't have a problem with transpeople maybe don't use incorrect pronouns.

 

[MUnited83]

Why would anyone care if a murderer commits suicide?

Do you understand how mind-boggingly stupid this statement is? Shit, even if you ignore basic humanity and empathy, suicide are a practical burden on the system. Suicides of murderers in prison will still result in the use of your tax dollars, the mental distress in other inmates and prison staff because of it.

This is a perfect example of someone getting emotional and reactionary.

I Have no problem with trans peeps, I have a problem with criminals who've commited major crimes- like taking a life getting anything in return via public funds. It's a luxury no matter how you slice it. The criminal should have thought about this before he killed another person. He's not gonna die if he doesn't get this. And if he kills himself, that's a choice.

I wonder why the the "totally not transphobic" crowd here arguing that she shouldn't be able to have access to this keep insisting on misgendering her at every single turn.

 

[Ketkat]

This is a perfect example of someone getting emotional and reactionary.

I Have no problem with trans peeps, I have a problem with criminals who've commited major crimes- like taking a life getting anything in return via public funds. It's a luxury no matter how you slice it. The criminal should have thought about this before he killed another person. He's not gonna die if he doesn't get this. And if he kills himself, that's a choice.

You're using he a whole lot about a trans woman for someone who has no issue with trans people

 

[Butterfly Witch]

So real talk, Why does he need elective surgery again?

Who's he?

This particular female prisoner needs life saving surgery so she doesn't suffer from mental illness for the rest of her life. Since it's a medical need it's not elective, it's vital. Also, since the 8th Amendment of the United States Constitution prohibits us from cruel and unusual punishment, then the life saving treatment cannot be withheld.

 

[MUnited83]

So real talk, Why does he need elective surgery again?

She. And you forget to read the fucking OP or something?

 

[Prototype]

If you don't fucking get it and haven't read the topic, stop. Seriously, just fucking stop and read the topic.
So many people have said our essential health care is 1) not important. 2) cosmetic and elective. 3) that other prisoners should get their care but not trans individuals. 4) some have even implied that trans suicide rates are fake/not as dire 5) rather than respond to the human issue, they respond to "this trans person got healthcare!" as though it's the fucking end of the world for budgetary reasons despite them being utterly wrong. 6) prisoners still get healthcare. it's in our constitution. I don't give a fuck what you personally think. 7) have acted like they know more about our healthcare than us and the medical professionals. 8) etc. etc. etc. etc.

This topic is nothing but an excuse for people to expose how transphobic they are. Point blank. There is no wiggle room with this.



Our healthcare is not a luxury, you transphobe. I'm responding to your steadfast stupidity in the face of trans people who know a million times better than you and the views of our medical professionals. You clearly have a problem with trans individuals if you call our essential. health. care. an unnecessary luxury. You are essentially arguing you are fine with the mental anguish we go through and fine with suicide. Do you not get how fucked in the head that is?



1) That is quite literally drawing a line on trans-healthcare. Especially since your shitty "the high costs!" argument has already been debunked.
2) You are implying our healthcare isn't serious. Do not fucking get how that reveals how transphobic you're being?
3) The prison healthcare system and ours is entirely unrelated. Denying this person theirs won't get me mine. This has also been covered time and time again in this topic. Fucking read the topic.

I'm fine with criminals having mental anguish.

 

[Ekai]

So real talk, Why does he need elective surgery again?

Mods, can you please just ban people who have been in this topic for a long time if they start doing this?
They are clearly purposefully:
1) misgendering as they know the gender of the person in the topic.
2) saying our essential care is elective yet again despite facts being constantly repeated to the contrary

 

[Gordon Shumway]

Imma keep talking about taxes because lols.

Dude. "How would you feel if it was your loved one?" Was the question. My father (in this case) is now dead. I'd hope the murderer died under the knife. That's it. That's my answer to that question. Do you understand that? Nope. Taxes. Taxes. Taxes. So, no. You aren't gonna answer..shocking. At least stick to the subject of what you quote.

 

[HazySaiyan]

So real talk, Why does he need elective surgery again?

I refuse to believe that's not deliberate.

 

[Butterfly Witch]

I'm fine with criminals having mental anguish.

Unfortunately for you the 8th Amendment isn't. It's literally unconstitutional.

 

[FyreWulff]

So real talk, Why does he need elective surgery again?

she

not elective

 

[Platy]

I'm fine with criminals having mental anguish.

Why are you in favor of torture?

Are you just in favor of torturing prisoners or also in favor of torture in wars or to get info from possibly innocent people?

 

[Deleted member 80556]

Are you suggesting there aren't limits though? I'm trying to define, or redefine, those limits for myself/morals is all.

There are no limits.

Let me put here the World Health Organization's definition of Health, since people don't know it clearly:

Health is a state of complete physical, mental and social well-being and not merely the absence of disease or infirmity.

The state HAS to take care of their inmate's health, NO exceptions. GRS is a procedure that modifies and improve's people's HEALTH.

Refusing to provide GRS, or any other health procedure for that matter, is immoral.

I don't understand why this is so hard to come around to. Don't bring up the victim's families to the discussion, because they're not neither judge, jury, nor executioner (i.e. they're not part of the justice system); don't bring up that we should take rights from certain groups of people because you don't like them, bring up the fact to your politicians that everyone should have these rights; and most definitely don't say that this is cosmetic or elective, because if you suffered what trans people suffer, you wouldn't think it is either of those things.

 

[HazySaiyan]

I'm fine with criminals having mental anguish.

This is why you're not in charge.

 

[rambis]

Did you even read your own example?


These prisoners being denied proper treatment is disgusting and something needs to be done about it, but I fail to see how this malpractice suddenly means SRS should be denied to be somebody who needs it. Are you wanting to deny this woman treatment out of spite? Just 'cause?

Did you read the post you quoted?

It doesn't matter what the reason is, we don't even know what grounds they are denied treatment on so idk how you figure that. Its the fact that they were denied treatment.

 

[FyreWulff]

I'm fine with criminals having mental anguish.

you know torture is literally unconstitutional right

i mean, you kinda don't need a piece of paper to tell you that doing that is wrong, but it's quite literally against the law

 

[Ekai]

I'm fine with criminals having mental anguish.

So you're fine with potentially innocent people being tortured because our prison system is fucked up and targets a lot of innocent PoC or locks them up for years on minor drug charges. Just want to get that clear. You think innocent people/low level criminal offenders should suffer because murderers also exist? That's just outright psychotic.

That you didn't respond to anything else is telling.

 

[WipedOut]

For a prisoner it is for sure 100% elective and not medically necessary. She is not going to die from gangrene or a life threatening disease.

edit: sorry She.

 

[Sai-kun]

For a prisoner it is for sure 100% elective and not medically necessary. He is not going to die from gangrene or a life threatening disease.

edit: sorry She.

why this distinction?

 

[Dude Abides]

It seems pretty clear that opposition to this derives from one or both of the following premises.

(1) reassignment surgery is not necessary medical care (in which case I guess you know better than people with actual training in this area); and/or

(2) criminals don't deserve mah tax monies! (In which case why not just let them starve?)

For a prisoner it is for sure 100% elective and not medically necessary. He is not going to die from gangrene or a life threatening disease.

edit: sorry She.

That's not what medically necessary means. A prisoner won't die from a broken arm either.

 

[MUnited83]

I'm fine with criminals having mental anguish.

Torture of prisoners is illegal as per US's constitution.

 

[GhostTrick]

For a prisoner it is for sure 100% elective and not medically necessary. He is not going to die from gangrene or a life threatening disease.

edit: sorry She.

You know, if you were being honest, you could just replace the "he" with a "she". You just sounds like ironic here.

 

[HazySaiyan]

Did you read the post you quoted?

Yes I did that's why I stated that the denial of treatment for these prisoners is wrong. Denial of medical treatmen for ANY reason is wrong, but you've just decided this is an exception for some reason and everytime somebody disputes your reasons you just move the goalposts.

 

[Nepenthe]

This is a perfect example of someone getting emotional and reactionary.

Let's come back to this.

I Have no problem with trans peeps, I have a problem with criminals who've commited major crimes- like taking a life getting anything in return via public funds. It's a luxury no matter how you slice it.

Prisons are paid for by taxpayers. Do you have a fundamental issue with prisoners having a roof over their heads and guaranteed meals while we have a homeless and hunger problem? If so, what do you advocate we do about it? Chain prisoners up outside and feeding them whenever someone remembers to, or just allow police to summarily execute more people than they already do? Why should prisoners have shelter when innocent prior don't?

Criminality has nothing to do with whether or not withholding treatment from someone is cruel. This isn't even an issue of sympathy like the naysayers are insisting; just whether or not you believe in basic human decency.

The criminal should have thought about this before he killed another person. He's not gonna die if he doesn't get this. And if he kills himself, that's a choice.

Ignoring the iffy context of the designation of GRS as a luxury, you can't call someone's claim of transphobia (which, let's be honest, is rampant in this thread) bunk and as over-emotional while simultaneously misgendering someone.

 

[Heroman]

Using the tax money argument is so dumb.

 

[HazySaiyan]

For a prisoner it is for sure 100% elective and not medically necessary. He is not going to die from gangrene or a life threatening disease.

edit: sorry She.

Why specifically not for a prisoner?

 

[Ms.Galaxy]

For a prisoner it is for sure 100% elective and not medically necessary. He is not going to die from gangrene or a life threatening disease.

Enough, this talking point has been brought up and debunked to death multiple times here. In the state of California, as stated by the state's Supreme Court in 2001, treatment for gender dysphoria is considered medically necessary. As such, it is considered part of basic health care. The state is legally responsible for the health and well being of their prisoners, this includes providing them with basic healthcare. As such, it is unconstitutional to refuse her the only valid treatment for her medical condition, regardless if she's a murderer.

 

[WipedOut]

Using the tax money argument is so dumb.

How? please elaborate how we are going to allow a Murderer who is serving a life sentence for klilling someone in cold blood from soaking up tax payer money that could be going to more productive resources.

You know, if you were being honest, you could just replace the "he" with a "she". You just sounds like ironic here.

Maybe if you weren't so post happy you would see that was done as well. :thinkingoutloud:

 

[Nepenthe]

Also, have the philosophical ramifications of withholding medical treatment from innocent people/non-violent offenders been discussed in this thread yet, or are people conveniently ignoring these people exist as officially designated "criminals" too?

 

[Prototype]

So you're fine with potentially innocent people being tortured because our prison system is fucked up and targets a lot of innocent PoC or locks them up for years on minor drug charges. Just want to get that clear. You think innocent people/low level criminal offenders should suffer because murderers also exist? That's just outright psychotic.

That you didn't respond to anything else is telling.

I'm not going to respond to any kind of misgender bait, and here you are vastly overestimating the number people that are incorrectly imprisoned. Lol.
Ya sometimes it happens, but far and away the people getting arrested are the actual criminals.

But yoga class is gotta be over by now right? Cuz you are stretching for an argument so hard. Ease up.