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Canada will have ANOTHER Federal election this Fall.
- Thread starter Diagol
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Question: if the Conservatives lose this election (here's hoping), is Harper likely to remain their leader? And if he doesn't, who are his likely successors?
Anyway, NDP has my riding locked up, so I think I'll vote Green this time around. I'm curious to see where Elizabeth May decides to run, actually. I think she has a legitimate shot if she picks a better riding.
Anyway, NDP has my riding locked up, so I think I'll vote Green this time around. I'm curious to see where Elizabeth May decides to run, actually. I think she has a legitimate shot if she picks a better riding.
gutter_trash said:
I can't believe this is a big deal ? Who cares ? The state of the economy is already on TV, in every newspapers and websites. Why do you need a fucking politician to take over every major airwaves around to basically deliver a propaganda message. So you can accuse him of propaganda later on because you already hate him ?
TheRagnCajun
Member
_leech_ said:
It may be premature to say that its all roses from here, but I think it is safe to say that whoever serves the term is going to see the economy recover, and take credit for it.
And I doubt the Liberals would do anything with the deficit. Its not their fault, its those dirty conservatives, right? By keeping the deficet they're keeping a reminder of the terrible job the conservatives did, and they can then proceed to buy votes with social programs and healthcare funding.
Like I said, good plan if it actually works.
Bullshit. How much does a NDP vote matter in Stepher Harper's riding? How much does a Green vote matter in Ignatieff's? 'Every vote matters' is an empty phrase that has *no* substance. Every vote matters in places that use Proportional Representation. The End.ProudClod said:
If you are expecting me to become a die-hard Get Out The Vote super organiser to have any *hope* of actually getting representation for what I actually vote for instead of just voting and having it have an impact then there is something ridiculously broken.
Hell, the perversity is that the more competitive things get the MORE SKEWED the results are.
http://www.wastedvotes.ca/?q=node/2/Federal/40/1285/DISTRICT
gutter_trash
Banned
Kifimbo said:
But he did manage to find the time to adress the nation on TV last December when he was threatened by a coalition...
BladeWorker
Member
Paying taxes is an especially prescient reason to vote. Do you not want a say in how your tax dollars are spent?Kifimbo said:
If you don't support any party, spoil your ballot. That's sending a message that none of the parties capture your imagination. Not voting sends the message that you don't give a shit about your democracy.
BladeWorker
Member
Don't think you count? Your vote sends dollars to the party you vote for. Combine that with the money of others who vote the same way, and that amounts to serious moolah. Guess which political party tried to end that process?Azih said:
If you're so pissed off that your opinion doesn't count, join the ranks of your preferred candidate's volunteers. They'd be happy to have you.
People who whine that "nobody listens to them" fulfill a vicious cycle: keep whining that you don't count, and pretty soon, you won't be heard at all.
BladeWorker
Member
So I repeat the question: do you not want a say in how your tax dollars are spent? Duct-taping your mouth shut, which is effectively what you're doing by not participating in the democratic process, seems to be completely counterintuitive to what you want. DO something! Write a letter! Call your MP!Kifimbo said:
I am lucky as I have two polling buildings just outside my house so I never have to go out of my way to vote. Will be voting NDP like I always do as I am in a strong NDP riding so my vote won't be wasted. I don't really like Ignatieff at all but anyone or anything is better than Harper so hopefully he and his conservative cronies can get kicked out.
gutter_trash
Banned
Kifimbo said:
Conservatives are the masters of running up big deficits, weather it is Harper or Mulroney
remember, consecutive surpluses were done under Chretien-Martin era.... not Harper
BladeWorker
Member
So if a party in power doesn't respond to your concerns...that's a reason to stop voting? Man, if someone in power started to ignore me, I'd put my vote elsewhere. Actually, I'd more likely keep writing and calling until they DID listen to me. I'm a taxpayer, I'm a voter, my concerns count just as much as anyone else's. Your taxes and my taxes and everyone else's taxes pay their salaries. Hold em accountable!Kifimbo said:
The glory of democracy is that we can vote for the party that best represents our concerns. AND, hey, running as an independent is always an option. Go for it!
Circle Jerk
Member
Harper will go down as one of the worst PM's in Canadian history. But he might win considering how fucked up the Liberals are right now...
gutter_trash
Banned
Bpatrol said:
Harper wasn't able to get a majority when the Liberals had Ad-Scam and the 2nd time when they had Stephane Dion as leader
if you cannot win a majority when your opponent is Dion... when can you win a majority?
Circle Jerk
Member
Not a majority but still being in power is bad enough.gutter_trash said:
BladeWorker said:
Geez, do you read one of my message and then forget about it the second you read another one ?
There is no party that appeals to me anymore. That's the main reason why I'm not voting.
Then you told me to do something about it, write a letter, call a PM. I did. I didn't even received an automatic response. My emails were probably not read by anyone. So, basically, I do not exist in their eyes. Doesn't encourage me to vote.
Conservatives = big spenders, no spending cuts, pro-war. They don't stand for personnal freedom anymore. They probably never really stand for it.
Liberals = stand for nothing except power. They would have spend even more than the Conservatives. They don't want to end the war. And I can't forget the sponshorsip scandal and the closure of a radio station.
NPD = They are anti-war and somewhat for the legalization of drugs. That's good. But they will spend more than anyone else. They are socialists, they want to control people's life even more with dozens of new programs that will cost several billions.
Bloc = Never.
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
I'm voting! I hope the conservatives will lose, but I think it will be minority Conservatives again.
BladeWorker
Member
Kifimbo said:
Well then. Have it your way. I don't listen, and neither does anyone in politics. Don't vote. Don't anybody vote. Let's determine who wins by the flip of a coin, because it doesn't make any difference anyway, they're all the same, offering pie-in-the-sky promises and then doing nothing. Let's forget that we fought and negotiated and debated for decades to vote our own elected representatives into government, so that Canada could be a sovereign country with sovereign laws. Let's ignore elections and what political parties do in office, because it's all the same, all they do is spend and waste and spend some more.
You don't want to have a say when you have a chance? Fair enough. But don't complain when all of a sudden, you get a bill for your flu shot. Don't complain when you go to retire, and GIS, OAS, and CPP/QPP no longer exist. Don't complain when there's no place for your kids to get care when you have to work to support your family. Don't complain when the government and the police intercept your calls and emails because they want to make sure nobody's a terrorist. Don't complain that you default on your mortgage or get evicted from your home because you've lost your job and can't get another one no matter how hard you try. Don't complain that nobody stands to protect us when something happens to jeopardize our national security. Don't complain that all of a sudden, it costs $80,000 a year to go to school.
Quid Tacit Consentit. By your silence, by your non-participation, by giving up on politics and the democratic process, you give your tacit consent to anything that the government will do. Collective non-participation means carte blanche for government-inspired chaos.
If the citizens of this country do not hold its government accountable in any reasonable way they can, who will?
And how does not voting do anything to solve your problems?
GSG Flash said:
Eh? I'm frankly amazed he's still the leader at this point. An election loss now would pretty much kill his hopes of being PM again any time in the next 5 years. A leader who can't muster a majority under conditions ideal enough that he himself called the election doesn't deserve to keep his position as head of a major political party.
The conservative party needs new blood asap if it wants to have any hope of a majority any time soon.
Atrus said:
The Alberta Progressive Conservative Party is not in any way shape or form a part of the same organization as the Federal Conservative Party, and hasn't been for a long time, just so you know. You can't sway one by your votes for the other. The same, incidentally, goes for the Alberta Liberal Party and the Federal Liberal Party. They split in the aftermath of the NEP backlash.
BladeWorker
Member
Azih said:
The system is broken. I never argued against that. HOWEVER, apathy is part of the reason it's so broken. It's fucking circular. The reason certain parties have certain ridings in lockdown is because they have a hardcore veteran following in those ridings. This discourages the moderates from voting. When Party A wins in their "locked down' riding, the moderates (most of whom never bothered voting, or voting strategically), take that as evidence that Party A is unbeatable in their riding. This unhealthy way of viewing elections perpetuates.
I understand the concept behind "wasted votes", but that link you showed me is pure and direct proof that every vote counts. The difference between the Bloc and the NDP candidate is only 1500 votes. Not the closest call, but close enough to say that every vote matters. That's 1500 votes out of 52,000~. That's not even taking into consideration the fact that the turnout in Canada kind of sucks.
If you say Person 1's vote doesn't matter, person 2's vote doesn't matter, person 3's vote doesn't matter, person 4's vote doesn't matter... Person 11,500,000's vote doesn't matter. No one's vote matters.
will123456
Member
I really hate it when people say "my vote doesn't count. Why should I bother ?"
Even if you are in one of does so-called safe riding, you vote will give your party of choice 1.75$ per year. With enough people voting that can add up to some serious amounts. Money that can be used by the party to help promote it and help it win more seats when the next election comes around.
Under these circumstances not voting is IMO lazy and stupid.
Even if you are in one of does so-called safe riding, you vote will give your party of choice 1.75$ per year. With enough people voting that can add up to some serious amounts. Money that can be used by the party to help promote it and help it win more seats when the next election comes around.
Under these circumstances not voting is IMO lazy and stupid.
Lion Heart
Banned
I'll only vote if none of these asshats call me on the phone.
BladeWorker said:
Got other hyperboles ?
You know what ? Most of my problems are related to governements. I'm paying for a useless war. The government put me in debt, along with my kids. Half of my money is being taken away to pay for things I never asked and I don't want. Our retirement funds are big Ponzi Scheme. In Quebec, no money will be left in 2037. That means that I'm gonna pay more than my parents/grandparents and but I'll get a lot less when I retire.
Your examples are quite funny.
Getting a bill for a flu shot is what I want. First, I'm not gonna get a shot, so I would not have to pay. And I wouldn't have to pay for others, unless I personnaly want to help some people.
As for retirement funds, I already talked about it. They are the biggest fraud in our system. They are worst than Madoff Ponzi scheme, since we are FORCED to participate. I could handle my money and build my own retirement funds.
As for my future mortage, that's life. If you can't pay, you can't own. It's not the government's role to give people houses with my money and your money. That's silly.
As for national security, I think being at war in Afghanistan is possibly more harmful that anything else. I'm not against having strong army. I'm against stupid endless wars, meddling with other countries politics, and nation-building.
And 80 000$ to go to school ? Please. Only a few school could survive with fees that high.
Finally, stop saying I'm not involved in the political process. That fact that I'm discussing here is proof that I care. I know more about politics than most of my friends. I'm not the lazy guy on his couch who can't give you the name of each party leader. They just don't deserve my vote and my 2$. No one does right now.
As an Ignorant American, can someone PLEASE explain the Canadian government system for me and why there is no check/balance/limit to the "no confidence (which is a good idea in theory, for government systems, but in practice...)" voting?
BladeWorker
Member
A party must win the majority of ridings in the country in order to have a majority of seats in the House of Commons, and form a government whose leader becomes PM. If they do not, the party and leader with the most number of seats won at the end of the election forms a minority government, complete with that party's leader called Prime Minister.TheSeks said:
A minority government can only pass bills into law with the support of other parties, whereas a majority government can pass a bill (and send it to what is now the cursory review of the Senate, but that's another story) no problemo. This minority-needing-another-party isn't a big deal until a bill comes up that deals with financial matters or is otherwise declared a "confidence" motion.
Motions of confidence mean that each party member must vote along party lines, and if the parties that are not government (aptly titled opposition parties, with the party with the second-most number of seats called the "official" opposition) decide that they will vote against the government's bill, it means that the House of Commons has lost confidence in the government. Traditionally, this means that the Prime Minister must then prorogue Parliament, have a chat with the Governor-General, and then an election is called.
BladeWorker
Member
How's the Reform party doing?Kifimbo said:
So excited.Nice, my vote is worth a buck seventy five.BladeWorker said:
I already noted that there is something disgustingly wrong with the idea that voting isn't enough to get one's voice heard in a DEMOCRACY. Greens get almost as many votes as the Bloc and yet the Bloc gets fifty fucking seats and the Greens get nothing?
Proportional Representation or Bust.
no it's proof that it's at best a crapshoot, and that in actual CLOSE ridings a person can win full fucking power while being supported by LESS THAN THIRTY PERCENT OF THE VOTERS. 70 freaking percent didn't vote for him and yet he's the 'representative' of the riding. What a fucking joke.ProudClod said:
and what about the liberals that are right behind the NDP?
Nope the people who vote for the candidate who goes on to win get to be represented by someone they voted for. That's usually less than half of the voters in any given election. That's FPTP for ya.
BladeWorker said:
So, basically, if I'm understanding this:
Basically, the government is formed with seats with all parties like the US (well, unlike the US third parties can get seats?), but in the case of passing laws instead of having to check/balance pass between Senate/Parliment the "minor" government (that isn't a majority of one party) has a "no confidence" vote if they come into disagreement about a bill from the ruling party?
Isn't that a little... fucked up? Why not just have the bill "die" and the "no confidence" come up if/when the Prime Minister is a total fuck-up?
TheSeks said:
The govering party/coalition can declare certain bills matters of confidence and if they're defeated on them the government dissolves. Only important bills get this treatment though with budgets always being matters of confidence.
Alternatively any Member of Parliament can introduce a bill of no confidence and if a majority of reps vote in support of the no confidence the goverment falls as well.
Usually what this means is that in a minority situation the governing party has to cooperate with at least some of the opposition parties to survive. What's been happening in the last few years however is that all three opposition parties need to unite to topple the government but that at any time until the end of 2008 either the Bloc or the Liberals have been in such disarray that Harper has been able to govern unopposed by making everything a vote of no confidence and then laughing when either the Bloc or the Libs rolled over.
gutter_trash
Banned
a minority government is a retarded thing that passes short-term candy that will stay fresh in voters minds just in case they gov. falls, the voters will remember the candy (perpetual campaign mode.
a majority government is all out powerful entity that can do whatever it wants for 4 - 5 years
a majority government is all out powerful entity that can do whatever it wants for 4 - 5 years
Azih said:
I, sort-of, see now. Basically if it's a matter of economy/et. al. it'll most likely pass? But if it's something the majority of the "minor government"'s ruling party wants (like a speed limit sign in Government buildings/something stupid like that) they declare it a no confidence as a "threat"(?) to the minors/non-majority of the minor government so as if it fails the whole government has to be reelected?
Am I getting that right?
Only under FPTP type systems though because all the big parties are only a small shift in support away from getting the majority all encompassing power.gutter_trash said:
In PR systems since they actually have to *get* more than 50% support to get the majority power and this is all but impossible they are forced to form stable coalitions and do.
TheSeks said:
Basically bills can be declared matters of confidence and how each party votes at that point depends on how they feel they'll do in a resulting election.
If the governing party in a minority situation thinks that it is weak and won't do well in an election it will avoid that situation (until forced into it by a budget bill), If the governing party thinks it's in a strong position it can ram stuff through. Confidence bills are a big deal.
gutter_trash
Banned
maybe in big European countries with big parliaments they may work
but Canada's parliament is too small for it too work.
the only time it ever worked was wth Liberal-NDP coalitions from the 60s
but Canada's parliament is too small for it too work.
the only time it ever worked was wth Liberal-NDP coalitions from the 60s
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