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Canadian General Election (OT) - #elxn42: October 19, 2015

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pr0cs

Member
If someone has a good reason to take money from people who don't have kids and people who generate a high income, and give it to people who have kids then I don't have a problem with it, but it had better be a good reason. I dislike having money taken from me to support someone else's kids, especially when they often don't need it. I'm comfortable with some of my money being taken to help those in desperate need or to pay for essential public services, and I don't think I'm alone in that.
?
Totally agree, it would be political suicide to yank benefits that have been in place for a long time, no matter the families financial situation. It's funny to me that there are people demanding that these benefits be taken away yet they benefit everyone who has a family, its not like the poor don't get the same benefits. Just because your family isn't in poverty you shouldn't be punished for working hard and being successful.
 

sunofsam

Member
Was our for dinner with my millennial brother (age 33). He's voting PC because of the money given for families per kid. I didn't understand it exactly but he said he gets a cheque for 800/mth because of his kids ...

They are solidly middle class ... Oshawa home owners making prob 80k - 100 k annually. I can see how those kind of credits would be super appealing ....

Edit: Also TSFAs are massive wealth generators. Even if you can't max it year to year, there may be a time (like when selling a house) that you can sock in the room you have (as room in a TSFA grows cumulatively year to year). I def like the 10k max per year ... It is not impossible for a middle class family to do.

How many kids he have? It's 160$/month a child under 6. 60$/month for kids between 6-17.

This was started in January 2015 (previous program was 100$/month for kids under 6 only). First payment was held back to conveniently coincide with the announcement of the election. So some people got nice cheques for $520+ - we got one for $760.

Oh yeah - with the change, it is now taxable as income.
 

Azih

Member
Hah we got a nice 'backdated' cheque with a letter from Joe Oliver as well. It's such a transparent vote buying attempt. Not surprised that people fall for it.
 
I've been reading about the brewhaha over liberal candidate coronations for BC ridings. Kinda lame and sorta scummy, and I say this as a member of the LPC too.
how elae do you secure star candidates with strong economic portfolios, science portfolios, environmental portfoilios..?
 

Tabris

Member
I still have not heard a conservative voter here address my selfish comments.

You are in favour for a government that provides a family the same monthly check for child benefits whether they earn $30k or $150k. One needs it and one doesn't. The cost of providing benefits to the family doesn't is taken out of social services that the family that does need it is now not getting.

You are in favour for a government that provides tax breaks to high earning income families and individuals instead of investing that tax income into Canada benefiting everyone, but most importantly investing it into social services for those that can't help themselves.

I see comments in here like "hard working so I deserve it", and I really have a feeling that you think that you work harder then those less fortunate, even though I can almost guarantee that single mother that can't afford daycare without working 2 jobs works harder then you.

But even ignoring that dynamic, isn't it more important to take care of those that can't take of themselves in this capitalistic environment where hard work = success? You are already being taken care of due to the free market giving you success due to your hard work. I'm already taken care of by my successful jobs. Why would you or I take away from those that can't get the same success as us?

Because by voting PC, you are taking away from those that can't take care of themselves.

EDIT - The other point I often see is "well that money is being wasted on people abusing" or "I would support it if all my money was accounted for". Any kind of social service will have waste, there is no perfect non-wasteful social service out there, no matter the government. For all that waste, people are still being benefited that need it. So once again, if you are in favour of taking it away because there's waste, you are still taking it away from those that need it as well.
 
I still have not heard a conservative voter here address my selfish comments.

You are in favour for a government that provides a family the same monthly check for child benefits whether they earn $30k or $150k. One needs it and one doesn't. The cost of providing benefits to the family doesn't is taken out of social services that the family that does need it is now not getting.

You are in favour for a government that provides tax breaks to high earning income families and individuals instead of investing that tax income into Canada benefiting everyone, but most importantly investing it into social services for those that can't help themselves.

I see comments in here like "hard working so I deserve it", and I really have a feeling that you think that you work harder then those less fortunate, even though I can almost guarantee that single mother that can't afford daycare without working 2 jobs works harder then you.

But even ignoring that dynamic, isn't it more important to take care of those that can't take of themselves in this capitalistic environment where hard work = success? You are already being taken care of due to the free market giving you success due to your hard work. I'm already taken care of by my successful jobs. Why would you or I take away from those that can't get the same success as us?

Because by voting PC, you are taking away from those that can't take care of themselves.

EDIT - The other point I often see is "well that money is being wasted on people abusing" or "I would support it if all my money was accounted for". Any kind of social service will have waste, there is no perfect non-wasteful social service out there, no matter the government. For all that waste, people are still being benefited that need it. So once again, if you are in favour of taking it away because there's waste, you are still taking it away from those that need it as well.

I'm not planning on voting Conservative, but you could make the case that a family making 150k could be very heavily leveraged and living outside their means (or paycheque to paycheque), and in that case the extra money could very well be useful for helping with child care. This could be especially likely in a couple cities with ridiculous housing costs.

And if we're saying that only 1% of Canadian families make more than that then the added cost to just give it to everyone shouldn't be huge.
 

Azih

Member
I'm not planning on voting Conservative, but you could make the case that a family making 150k could be very heavily leveraged and living outside their means (or paycheque to paycheque), and in that case the extra money could very well be useful for helping with child care. This could be especially likely in a couple cities with ridiculous housing costs.
Yeah but for those guys most of that benefit will be taken back at tax time because of their high income.
 
I'm not planning on voting Conservative, but you could make the case that a family making 150k could be very heavily leveraged and living outside their means (or paycheque to paycheque), and in that case the extra money could very well be useful for helping with child care. This could be especially likely in a couple cities with ridiculous housing costs.

Yes they could, but that would be them living beyond their means by choice, whereas a poor single mother has no choice, as even 2 minimum wage jobs wouldn't be enough to pay for rent, daycare, food, etc.
 

Pedrito

Member
So now they'll spend a week or two talking about that freaking niqab decision despite the fact that it affects about 0.0000001% of the population. Such a pressing issue!
 
Yeah but for those guys most of that benefit will be taken back at tax time because of their high income.
Yep.

Yes they could, but that would be them living beyond their means by choice, whereas a poor single mother has no choice, as even 2 minimum wage jobs wouldn't be enough to pay for rent, daycare, food, etc.

Yep.

I also totally support the idea of giving more money to poor families, even if they're not working. I grew up around a lot of people living on social assistance in NS, which in most cases was barely enough to cover rent in a ghetto. That kind of environment really isn't good for kids, and having an extra few hundred dollars per month would mean less family stress, more money for food and clothes, enough to afford a bike or whatever other little stuff. This might sound like basic stuff but it can really mean a big difference for social development of kids/teenagers.
 
I don't know about you guys in other part of Canada but the news cycle for this Election has gotten real slow here in Quebec lately. I mean real slow.

You could swear there is no Election by the super snail slow news cycle of this past week.

And the polls, the polls on nationally has narrowed between 32% to 29% for the big 3.

The only thing that matters now are Regional breakdowns because over here it is snooze city and barely any of my co-workers are even talking about, the most I heard was in August but since September everyone is meh
 

SRG01

Member
Didn't have time to post some replies in the past while, so I'll do it right now:

No regional breakdowns in the methodology -- just the overall numbers. Though is that an issue? If the overall breakdown was 51-49, then wouldn't the bigger problem be if the breakdowns didn't support that?

Also, I'd have thought you'd latch on to those internal supporter numbers. They basically support your idea that there's appetite for change inside the CPC!

It may be a smaller issue than I make it out to be, but I have an issue whenever percentages and charts are shown without the weighting of each of these categories. And that's not counting the overlap that some of those pie-chart categories may have.

And yeah, I took a look at those internal supporter numbers. It's interesting to say the least, but I'll have to wait until other pollsters release similar data before further commenting on the internal state of the CPC party. My gut feeling says that it's pretty bang-on though...

Err, I don't think they're proposing anything. This is based on statscan data, so unless you have good reason to believe there's something wrong there they should be correct. Note that the median income (the income the very middle earner earns, with 50% earning more and 50% earning less) for individuals with no kids in Canada is readily available directly from Statscan and it's only $22k. I'd frankly be shocked, given that, if the 20th percentile was much higher than $55k. You can drill down some data for yourself if you want here.

Mind you, individual earners with no kids almost certainly skew younger. Individuals with kids ring in about $40k at the median. I assume the numbers for "Unattached individual" in that table are actually a merge of the single-no-kids and single-with-kids numbers, hence why it's a little higher.

And yes, it's very likely you occupy a higher income bracket than you think you do. It's a pretty common failure of perception.

The issue I have with the table is that it conflates earned income with social class, which is an unrealistic measure of what the middle class actually is. There's a whole assortment of data that is more useful, such as income to debt, cost of living, and so forth. Not only that, but pure income is flawed because it is not normalized to the region from which the data is drawn.

Sadly, the latest household debt information I could find on StatsCan was from 2005... which is odd considering that numerous press releases have commented on household debt in the years since.

(As an aside, I love the Inequality for All documentary as much as it is focused on American demographics, because there are a lot of good infographics concerning the middle class)
 
As for the suburbs my understanding is that generally they tend to be more right wing than the cities - can someone comment if that is true?

They tend to be more conservative-leaning than cities, but less right-wing than rural voters. People in the suburbs tend to be those mythical swing voters.

Yeah for sure. Your brother should put his info through that Liberal calculator and see what he comes up with, and do some of the math. Everything I've read suggests that for your brothers' case the Liberal plan would yield dramatically more benefits for him.

!!!!

A major goal of the $10k TFSA limit is to dramatically reduce government revenue and constrict ability of future governments to implement new programs.

The Conservatives are ideologically opposed to a government that funds services and programs. Government spending must be limited so that quality services and programs are impossible and must be shut down. The end goal is a tiny government that does almost nothing where everyone fends for themselves and pays for everything themselves.

While this is true in the abstract, I think it would be more accurate to say that Conservatives are ideologically opposed to government spending that helps non-conservative voters. As we've seen over the last decade, they have no problem increasing the size of government if it helps them out politically. The TFSA stuff now is pretty similar to the GST cut that helped propel them into office in 2006 -- it's absolutely horrible from an economic perspective since it blows a hole in the government's finances, but conservative-leaning voters don't mind that because it benefits them.

So now they'll spend a week or two talking about that freaking niqab decision despite the fact that it affects about 0.0000001% of the population. Such a pressing issue!

If it causes more CPC freakouts and causes them to offend more of their potential voters in the GTA with their dog-whistle racism, I'm fine with that.

I don't know about you guys in other part of Canada but the news cycle for this Election has gotten real slow here in Quebec lately. I mean real slow.

Yep. Someone in my office has to monitor the campaign closely (even more than I do, and it's a major part of my job), and a few days ago she said she was starting to understand what trench warfare was like. And just think: we'll be doing this all again in a year or so!


Another interesting poll from Abacus that, I think, really highlights how huge the divide is between Quebec and the rest of Canada (EDIT: Sorry, just Ontario):

Slide23.png

And if you've ever wondered why Harper tries to pivot to talk about ISIS, there's your reason.
 

maharg

idspispopd
According to pundit's guide the NDP are the first to the nomination finish line nationally (apparently the bloc has also nominated all its quebec candidates). They were behind for a while, but I guess they caught up.
 

Liberty4all

Banned
I emailed both my brothers the liberal calculator. Both have 3 kids probaly around the 80k range salary before taxes.

One responded (the other one):

We'd come out ahead for sure. I guess that's at least some consolation if
the liberals were to win.

I'll tell you what I think will happen though - if Justin gets in, he will
'discover' the conservatives financial #'s are way off so he can't implement
it for 2-3 years (ie never).

And If Justin/Muclair get in as a minority gov't, Muclair will insist on the
NDP daycare plan, so Justin won't be able to afford it that way either.

He seems to think that when Harper promises a tax credit it actually happens, but doesn't have any faith the liberals will keep their election promises. Interested to see how my younger brother responds.
 
Liberal has already committed to and are running on running a deficit, so I don't think they'd have much to worry about in terms of higher expenses delaying plans.

I also thought the liberal plan was supposed to be mostly cost/revenue neutral, since they're just changing the curve on the existing childcare plan to prevent high income earners from getting as much and in exchange giving more to lower income earners.

Code:
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/DzyzeqI.png[/IMG]

Edit: OK it's in the next paragraph of the PDF I found these charts:
FISCAL IMPACT
The Canada Child Benefit builds on the existing, income-tested Canada Child Tax Benefit and
the National Child Benefit Supplement. It replaces the Universal Child Care Benefit (UCCB),
which provides significant benefits to Canada’s wealthiest families. A Liberal government will
instead target those benefits to the middle class and those working hard to join it.
The Canada Child Benefit represents an incremental annual cost of $4 billion to the child
benefit system. Half of this cost is offset by the Liberal commitment to cancel Mr. Harper’s $2
billion tax break that disproportionately benefits wealthy families. The remaining $2 billion
cost represents a fiscal commitment that is part of the Liberal election platform. Our platform
will be fully costed, and our commitment to balanced budgets will once again be demonstrated
through the fiscal plan that will be released with our full platform.

Source: https://www.liberal.ca/files/2015/05/Fairness-for-the-Middle-Class.pdf
 

Azih

Member
It does explain why Mulcair is highlighting health spending and getting even less ambitious with tax raises though.

I think the NDP has decided that there is nothing happening on their left flank at all (Decades of being labelled lefty will do that I guess). So they're promoting their centrist credentials even harder. They've got C51 and now full withdrawal from Iraq as the policies that keep them looking left wing as well as getting votes.
 
The NDP Platform is out, but not online yet. It seems that pretty much everything they're promising wouldn't actually begin until 2020:

Their costing document lists eight categories of “incremental spending,” that start at $5.75-billion in the first year of an NDP government and ramp up to $11.3-billion in 2019-20.

The extra funding they would commit to health and seniors care, for instance, would climb from $355 million in 2016-17 to $2.5 billion in 2019-20.

The cost of their childcare plan, which they have said they would implement over eight years, rises from $694 million to $2.634 billion in four years’ time.

And the money they would spend to help young Canadians get jobs and to help pay for post-secondary education would climb from $140 million to $586 million.

They've also backed away entirely from their pledge to increase foreign aid.
 

maharg

idspispopd
I emailed both my brothers the liberal calculator. Both have 3 kids probaly around the 80k range salary before taxes.

One responded (the other one):



He seems to think that when Harper promises a tax credit it actually happens, but doesn't have any faith the liberals will keep their election promises. Interested to see how my younger brother responds.

Well, to be fair, it's pretty safe to credit Harper with following through on tax credits he announces in campaigns. Income splitting was even conditional in the campaign and it still happened. There's a lot to hate about CPC campaign tactics, but the truth is they have had very good follow through on their promises.
 

NetMapel

Guilty White Male Mods Gave Me This Tag
NetMapel, my dear....no. Just no.

Enough people have responded about the military side of things that I don't need to rehash that.

But have you seen me in this thread extolling the virtues of the Conservative government from a self-interested perspective? Have you seen me going on about how kickass things have been for the RCMP under Harper the last few years? No, you have not.

Quoth me from back in the thread: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=175069101&postcount=1261

"The Conservatives have gutted Federal Policing in this country to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars in the past four years"

When the Commissioner went before a Parliamentary committee a couple months after the Ottawa attack, he was asked, more or less, about the resources he was given. His answer was very diplomatic, of course, but amounted to "Do I have enough resources for terrorism investigations? Yes. But I've had to practically put a halt to all other federal investigations to do it. We don't have enough people to walk and chew bubblegum at the same time."

Boogie !!! How's the RCMP treating you these days ? It has been a while, eh ?

Anyways, it is a shame that RCMP seems to be seeing a decrease in funding :(
 

Walpurgis

Banned
NDP's Pat Martin seen saying 'son of a bitch' at Winnipeg forum
Martin, who has represented Winnipeg Centre for the NDP since 1997, was grilled on his record as MP by Green candidate Don Woodstock at the Downtown Winnipeg BIZ's forum at Portage Place Shopping Centre.

Candidates at the forum, which focused on issues related to the urban core, talked about how their parties would improve infrastructure, fight poverty and crime, help people dealing with addictions and mental illnesses, build more affordable housing and promote human rights.
But the event turned into a heated debate. In addition to questions about his record, Martin was also grilled about whether he currently resides in the riding.

The "son of a bitch" remark came about after Woodstock asked Martin how often he helps people with serious mental health issues outside his constituency office in Winnipeg's inner city.

Martin accused Woodstock of insulting his office staff, saying they do help people in need on a regular basis. He could then be seen and heard muttering "you son of a bitch" as Woodstock launched a rebuttal.
Meanwhile, after the event ended, a woman wearing a "Vote Green" shirt accused Martin of shoving her — which he said was not true — and not answering her questions. The ensuing argument was captured by news crews that surrounded them.
Hahaha! What an asshole.
Elizabeth May to tweet her way into Globe and Mail debate
Elizabeth May is not letting the lack of an invitation keep her out of Thursday's election debate on the economy.

The Green Party leader plans to muscle her way into the conversation, at least online, with the help of Twitter.

The party is teaming up with the social media company to swiftly film and Tweet May's video responses to statements by the three invited leaders.

The Globe and Mail newspaper has asked Conservative Leader Stephen Harper, NDP Leader Tom Mulcair and Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau to discuss economic issues Thursday evening at Calgary's Stampede Park.

May and her team will be hunkered down in a Victoria church with Twitter's Steve Ladurantaye, creating a steady stream of video remarks, retorts and reality checks.
The exclusion led Twitter's Ladurantaye, a former Globe and Mail reporter, as it happens, to suggest a parallel digital debate, an approach he took in Britain last March with the Scottish National Party.

"You don't need to wait to be invited to something anymore. If you want to be part of it you can be part of it," Ladurantaye said. "Because there's this whole conversation that's going to be happening that night on Twitter."
She would consider it party crashing if she turned up in Calgary and banged on the door to get in.

"I'm not the kind of person to do that. But using social media and smart technology to give Canadians an additional option in the way they access this debate, I think is completely appropriate," she said.

"The disadvantage is, I'll get 30 seconds to insert what I would have said. Even using social media as cleverly as we possibly can, nothing replaces being on the stage to say, 'But wait, Mr. Harper ...'

"It's the best we can do, but it's far from being a fair debate."
It's incredible how they are still treating the Green party this way, especially after May's performance in the Maclean's debate.

Chris Austin, Liberal candidate, pulled for views 'irreconcilable' with party values
The Liberal Party has removed another Alberta candidate for expressing views that it says don't conform to the party's values.

In a statement Wednesday, the party said Chris Austin is no longer a candidate in Sturgeon River-Parkland.

"New information was brought to our attention which led to the revocation of his green light status, ending his candidacy," the party said.
"Some of Chris Austin`s views, as articulated in past comments, are irreconcilable with the values of the Liberal Party of Canada."

Facebook posts still visible on Chris Austin's page include comments made after the Oct. 22 shootings in Ottawa that said "Harper has turned our Nation's Capital into a War Zone as his thirst for War," and suggest the RCMP was the "Canadian Gestapo."

A screen grab circulating online of another post warned about "Radical Islam" being implemented by a "Leftist Government."


A new nomination meeting will be held Thursday evening in the Edmonton-area riding of Sturgeon River–Parkland. The party said that in accordance with its rules, Travis Dueck would be acclaimed as the new Liberal candidate.
The deadline for all parties to nominate their slates of candidates in advance of the Oct. 19 federal election is Sept. 28.
This is getting ridiculous. Why do people say stupid things on the internet using their real name?
 

Rocky85

Banned
I'm super surprised that the F35 hasn't been brought up again by the Liberals or NDP.
I dont think its in any partys interest to bring it up. The liberals joined the F35 program and afaik no country in the world apart from the US has fully committed to an order. Even the US government is iffy on the jets.
 
Two things:

1) Pat Martin is, was and always has been an asshole

2) No one should vote for The Green party unless they don't mind Harper winning re-election because voting Green in places where either the Libs or NDP could beat a Con is basically just handing the Cons some votes.
 

Walpurgis

Banned
2) No one should vote for The Green party unless they don't mind Harper winning re-election because voting Green in places where either the Libs or NDP could beat a Con is basically just handing the Cons some votes.

I agree. The only people that should vote Green are the people in B.C. where they already have seats.
 

GSG Flash

Nobody ruins my family vacation but me...and maybe the boy!
Two things:

1) Pat Martin is, was and always has been an asshole

2) No one should vote for The Green party unless they don't mind Harper winning re-election because voting Green in places where either the Libs or NDP could beat a Con is basically just handing the Cons some votes.

I would have disagreed before the Conservatives got rid of the per vote subsidy for parties.

Now there's pretty much no reason to vote based on principals if you want to get the Conservatives out, vote for the party that has the best chance to defeat them.
 

Tiktaalik

Member
Apparently Pat Martin has a farmhouse on Salt Spring Island and spends a great deal of the summer there (let's be honest here Manitoba is awful and we'd all do this) and all the other candidates are insinuating that he doesn't live in Winnepeg. I guess the line of attack is starting to get to him lol.
 
Martin's SOB outburst was caught on video. And his vow to sue anyone who suggested he lived on Salt Spring Island for libel has yielded a wonderfully sarcastic press release from the Liberal candidate he's running against.

RE: the NDP platform, it's still not online, even though they held a second press conference this morning after yesterday's went somewhat poorly. However, a reporter for City took a photo of what was distributed to journalists yesterday. Pages 1-4 are here, and 5-7 are here. Their numbers, in case anyone is interested, are:


Their projections are all based on revenues coming from $60/barrel oil, even though right now it's hovering around $45, and some analysts are suggesting it could go down to $20/barrel.

Huffington Post Canada is going after it for being vague and overly-optimistic.The Star is criticizing it for being light on detail ("the NDP handout fell well short of a detailed platform or even a précis of one."). The Globe and Mail is highly critical of most of it. As far as I can tell, the most positive press coverage seems to be from the National Post: "The best that can be said of the NDP fiscal plan is that it’s so modest, the damage would be limited."

And now Andrew Thompson -- the guy the NDP is running against Joe Oliver in downtown Toronto (though not as downtown as he would've liked) -- is under fire for having kept two sets of books during his time as Saskatchewan finance minister.
 

Tiktaalik

Member
Andrew Coyne: The things no party leader will say in Thursday’s debate

The three main party leaders will meet Thursday night to persuade you of one thing: that their plans for the economy are so vastly dissimilar, so entirely opposed, as to make the choice between them not merely a matter of who should run the government for a while but almost existential.

While modesty might impose some limits on the claims they will advance for their own plans, no such restraint will apply to their opponents’. Make the wrong choice, we will be given to understand, and the result will be a calamity, a disaster, a rapid descent into chaos. We would appear, as Woody Allen once said, to stand at a crossroads, one path leading “to despair and utter hopelessness,” the other to “total extinction.” (“Let us pray that we have the wisdom to choose correctly.”)

So it is perhaps worth pointing out in advance that none of this is true. We are not poised over a chasm, the merest step to the right or left spelling our doom. The differences between the parties, while real, are comparatively slight. The Liberals, it is true, would run deficits, while the other two parties say they would not, but not even the Liberals are pledged to run deficits of more than a few billion, or for more than two or three years. The Tories would not raise taxes, while the other two parties would, but no one is proposing large moves in tax rates either way.

Policies have real effects and a given policy might be expected to do more good (or harm) to the economy than the alternatives. Possibly, it might even be said that one party’s policies, taken together, are superior to the others’. But it is all at the margin. The economy will survive, whoever is elected, and will look much the same four years from now under any party — the same, that is, as it would under another party. Events, especially in the world economy, will have much more impact on our economic fortunes than anything any of the parties have in mind.

Indeed, for all their emphasis on the things on which they disagree, there is much more on which the parties are agreed. This is perhaps best expressed in the negative: by the things that none of the party leaders will say in the debate, beginning with the above — that the economy doesn’t much care who is in power.

The government doesn’t actually “run” the economy, at least in the way that people in politics like to pretend. Governments have little ability to influence the rate of economic growth in the short run, at least in the positive sense: though they can certainly screw it up, notably by letting inflation get out of hand. It is achievement enough for any government that it avoids doing so. But I doubt you will hear any of the leaders say, “If elected, I promise not to screw things up.”

Likewise, you are unlikely to hear any of the leaders say that it doesn’t matter whether we run a deficit, at least of the kind that any of them are talking about. It doesn’t matter in a negative sense — a $10-billion deficit would scarcely be detectable against the continuing decline of the debt-to-gross domestic product ratio — and it doesn’t matter in a positive sense: whatever miracles might be claimed on behalf of “fiscal stimulus,” a deficit of one-half of one per cent of GDP is not going to work them.

You will hear none of the leaders confess that subsidies to this or that sector, of the kind that all of them will boast about, are a less-than-zero-sum game, since whatever jobs and investment are created in the one industry come only at the expense of jobs and investment in all the rest. Neither will any of them say that the same applies to all the special credits, deductions and exemptions that now festoon the tax system, personal and corporate.

In particular, no leader will acknowledge what every economist will tell you: that cuts to the small business tax rate are a bad idea, not because small business owners are typically better off than average — though that is true — but because there is no evident economic advantage to favouring small businesses over large, especially so far as the higher general rate deters small businesses from becoming large.

Perhaps the leaders will discuss trade. Though all will profess to favour it, none will cite the benefits it brings in more and cheaper imports, as opposed to more exports; and while each might mouth the words “free trade,” all would quickly add that it should also be “fair,” meaning that should any country be so foolish as to offer a discount to our consumers, via export subsidies, we should immediately tax it away from them.

No leader will say the plain obvious truth, that supply management in agriculture, perhaps the most egregious known assault on the consumer interest, should be abolished. None will vouch that government should be doing rather less than it is — that it should properly be confined to the things that only government can do — and that the notion, in particular, that it should continue to enforce a monopoly for the state, in the case of home mail delivery, over a service it refuses to deliver is simple madness.

That politicians should be in broad agreement on these and other economic matters is not surprising, when you think of it. Economists, often said to be in chronic discord, in fact agree on many more things than they disagree. But the sorts of things on which you might find consensus among economists — that resources are scarce, that everything has a cost, that more of one thing means less of another — are exactly mirrored in the consensus of politicians: that we can have more of everything. Which I anticipate will emerge as the unstated conclusion of the evening.

Every once and a while Coyne writes something I agree with. Their economic plans are one of the least interesting, least differentiated parts of each of these parties' platforms.

The differences between each parties’ economic plans, when viewed from the high level view of the massive canadian economy are actually pretty minor. All three parties have a very similar approach to economic issues. No one is really sticking their neck out. When you consider the entire ~$279 billion budget, there’s almost no difference between a minor surplus and minor deficit. It’s a symbolic difference that is only important for the election purposes of winning targeted ridings of a certain ideological tilt.

The greater indicator of how these parties would actually govern in the long term is their history, the ideology of their MPs, and which classes of Canadians would benefit from their spending priorities.

One thing I'd add to Coynes list of things that won't be talked about is a carbon tax. Since Dion was trashed over his Green Shift proposal no one has wanted to talk about this even though it's a great idea that has been super effective in British Columbia.
 

maharg

idspispopd
Every once and a while Coyne writes something I agree with. Their economic plans are one of the least interesting, least differentiated parts of each of these parties' platforms.

The differences between each parties’ economic plans, when viewed from the high level view of the massive canadian economy are actually pretty minor. All three parties have a very similar approach to economic issues. No one is really sticking their neck out. When you consider the entire ~$279 billion budget, there’s almost no difference between a minor surplus and minor deficit. It’s a symbolic difference that is only important for the election purposes of winning targeted ridings of a certain ideological tilt.

The greater indicator of how these parties would actually govern in the long term is their history, the ideology of their MPs, and which classes of Canadians would benefit from their spending priorities.

One thing I'd add to Coynes list of things that won't be talked about is a carbon tax. Since Dion was trashed over his Green Shift proposal no one has wanted to talk about this even though it's a great idea that has been super effective in British Columbia.

I think the obsessive focus on budget minutea -- which is a damned if you do, damned if you don't thing for the Liberals and NDP -- is a weird product of treating change of government as a commercial transaction. Whenever there's an 'unexpected' election, you get people talking about the cost of it, which means that people feel like they're spending money on democracy. And then when the campaign is on everyone wants to know what they'll get and how much it'll cost out of their choices and basically nothing else.

Of course people end up disappointed in the documents like the NDP put out -- it's not as if the NDP have the resources of the entire civil service to draw on in order to write a full budget, as the conservatives do. And they're forced to walk a tightrope of making principled stands and basically guessing at costing them out (as are the Liberals).

It's pretty depressing, tbh.
 

Azih

Member
In more important news Fair Vote Canada has released the results of what most candidates (the ones that bothered to reply!) think about Proportional Representation:

http://www.fairvote.ca/

Look for the star from the candidates that replied.

Also here is a letter from 500 academics from right across Canada calling for Proportional Representation:


http://campaign2015.fairvote.ca/ove...-towards-a-fair-and-democratic-voting-system/

Here is the signed letter:

Letter from Canadian Academics:

Canada is facing a significant democratic deficit, illustrated by low voter turnout, unresponsive majority governments elected with far less than 50% of the vote, half of all votes electing no-one, superficial partisan posturing, and most disturbing, a growing majority of younger Canadians who see little value in voting or engaging in electoral politics.

As academics at Canadian universities and colleges across the country, we believe Canada can no longer afford to ignore the urgent need for electoral reform. We need an inclusive and functioning representative democracy based on a fair and proportional voting system.

As the 2015 federal election approaches, we urge the parties to include in their platforms a commitment to conducting a process that would bring together citizens and experts to design a proportional model for Canada immediately following the election, and to implement the model in time for the following election.
 

Tapejara

Member

Jinaar

Member
Globe and Mail site also says CHCH is showing it, but for some reason on my Bell guide it just says CHCH HD wi'll be showing The Legend of Zorro lol. Guess I'll just watch the livestream as I don't get CPAC in HD.


Thank you for the information, was about to search to see when this was actually on. Will watch.
 

Pedrito

Member
In more important news Fair Vote Canada has released the results of what most candidates (the ones that bothered to reply!) think about Proportional Representation:

http://www.fairvote.ca/

Look for the star from the candidates that replied.

Also here is a letter from 500 academics from right across Canada calling for Proportional Representation:


http://campaign2015.fairvote.ca/ove...-towards-a-fair-and-democratic-voting-system/

Here is the signed letter:

It's weird how electoral refom is barely talked about in this campaign.

I don't get why the NDP doesn't run ads saying "Are you tired of your vote being worthless? Vote for us and it will never happen again".
 
In more important news Fair Vote Canada has released the results of what most candidates (the ones that bothered to reply!) think about Proportional Representation:

http://www.fairvote.ca/

Look for the star from the candidates that replied.

Also here is a letter from 500 academics from right across Canada calling for Proportional Representation:


http://campaign2015.fairvote.ca/ove...-towards-a-fair-and-democratic-voting-system/

Here is the signed letter:

Could the CPC have its head further up its own ass? Poilievre doesnt have a clue.
 

Azih

Member
It's weird how electoral refom is barely talked about in this campaign.

I don't get why the NDP doesn't run ads saying "Are you tired of your vote being worthless? Vote for us and it will never happen again".

Electoral reform is not a sexy issue sadly and even when it is it's terribly easy to spread FUD about.
 

lacinius

Member
anyone in winnipeg know what channel the debate is and what time?


If you're on Shaw Cable... debate starts at 7pm on Channel 123. There is also a half-hour pre-debate show starting at 6:30, and a post-debate show at 9pm.

According to mts.ca the MTS CPAC channel is 28.

Can't speak for the satellite offerings.
 
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