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Canadian General Election (OT) - #elxn42: October 19, 2015

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G

gutter_trash

Banned
NDP salivating at defeating Trudeau and getting rid of the Liberals are just as bad as the Conservatives wanting Canada to be dividing and wedged into Left vs Right politics in a two party system.

Ironic that the party that pretends to want Proportional Representation wants to thrive in a 2 party polarized climate by killing off a party.


Harper too wants Canada to be polarized, Harper thrives on polarization

be careful what you wish for Lefties, you may end up with a more confrontational political climate then you wished for
 
M

maharg

idspispopd
matthewwhatever said:
If an NDP-commissioned poll of 300 people about a rival political leader with a huge margin of error isn't reliable, what is?
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The issue here isn't the number of people polled (a 5% MOE is used all the time for authoritative statements in canadian politics, and Nanos' usual 3-4% MOEs aren't much better for example). The issue with party commissioned polls is that we don't know how many times they polled before getting a result they liked. But the fact they were able to come out with one at all is bad news none the less.
 
M

mo60

Member
matthewwhatever said:
If an NDP-commissioned poll of 300 people about a rival political leader with a huge margin of error isn't reliable, what is?
Click to expand...

That poll is most likely very inaccurate. Trudeau probably has a good chance of keeping his riding still.It's possible that trudeau may lose his riding on election day but that will depend on how strong the Liberals and NDP are in Quebec on election day.
 
G

gutter_trash

Banned
Also the biggest red flag from that poll is that when asked who they voted for in 2011, only 18% say they voted Liberal in 2011 (which by far not the actual reslult in 2011
 
S

Silexx

Member
Tiktaalik said:
Every once and a while Coyne writes something I agree with. Their economic plans are one of the least interesting, least differentiated parts of each of these parties' platforms.

The differences between each parties’ economic plans, when viewed from the high level view of the massive canadian economy are actually pretty minor. All three parties have a very similar approach to economic issues. No one is really sticking their neck out. When you consider the entire ~$279 billion budget, there’s almost no difference between a minor surplus and minor deficit. It’s a symbolic difference that is only important for the election purposes of winning targeted ridings of a certain ideological tilt.

The greater indicator of how these parties would actually govern in the long term is their history, the ideology of their MPs, and which classes of Canadians would benefit from their spending priorities.

One thing I'd add to Coynes list of things that won't be talked about is a carbon tax. Since Dion was trashed over his Green Shift proposal no one has wanted to talk about this even though it's a great idea that has been super effective in British Columbia.
Click to expand...

A little late to this, but THIS IS WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING SINCE THE BEGINNING!
 
K

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
I'm finally finding myself getting into Canadian politics, and I think I'm leaning heavy liberal - but I want to be challenged on all of my positions, was hoping you guys could help me out.

A general thing I have observed (possibly incorrectly) is that the liberal party seems to be the ones with the most robust plans - the NDP not quite as good and the conservatives/green seemingly even more idealistic and unrealistic. I think what appeals to me about the liberal party platform is that it seems both the most realistic, and very progressive - but I don't know if this is just my gut speaking.

More specifically, things like the discussion on first past the post, and how the liberals are adamant about abolishing it, and switching to ranked ballots really appeals to me - the NDP are a bit vague on what to do here, but not in a bad way more in a "We need to do more research way" which I can somewhat appreciate, the conservatives obviously want to keep it in place for obvious reasons.

Also the liberals marijuana platform seems the most sensible, but decriminalization from the NDP/Green are great too.

An example of the sort of vagueness when I compare liberal vs ndp is when it comes to stuff like the employment insurance platform - NDP, from the best I can gather is "it's bad now because of harper" but I have trouble finding anything concrete - with liberals, they talk about what they want and why they want it.

Liberals are also very vocal about wanting to spend during this recession, as opposed to the 'balance the budget' language I am hearing from Cs and NDPs - which is not particularly useful, as far as I understand.

I could go on, but I think that's a general idea of what I see and what is appealing to me. There's a lot more, but I really really don't think I have a very deep understanding of Canadian politics, and those little polls I do just reaffirm that I am Liberal > NDP >>>>>> C (I know we're not three party, but it's convenient for this post to pretend we are).

I want to have my position challenged and I am hoping to really start to tune into what's going on, so I'll hopefully frequent this thread more often. And hopefully the upcoming debate is illuminating.
 
K

Kyuur

Member
pBJl3uF.gif


These automated captions aren't working so well.
 
M

matthewwhatever

Member
Welcome to the thread, Kinitari!


And here comes the debate! Predictions? I think Harper will have the easiest time of it. His record may be abysmal, but he's able to make nonsense sound completely reasonable.
 
TheStruggler

TheStruggler

Report me for trolling ND/TLoU2 threads
the debate starts in like 15 min I assume right, I just see a panel of 4 people talking right now, is this the pre-show?
 
B

Boogie

Member
NetMapel said:
Boogie !!! How's the RCMP treating you these days ? It has been a while, eh ?
Click to expand...

Hi. :)

Notwithstanding the poor state of my organization, and some gripes about work, I am doing well. Officially a "senior" constable now, which makes my head spin haha.
 
S

Silexx

Member
Kinitari said:
I'm finally finding myself getting into Canadian politics, and I think I'm leaning heavy liberal - but I want to be challenged on all of my positions, was hoping you guys could help me out.

A general thing I have observed (possibly incorrectly) is that the liberal party seems to be the ones with the most robust plans - the NDP not quite as good and the conservatives/green seemingly even more idealistic and unrealistic. I think what appeals to me about the liberal party platform is that it seems both the most realistic, and very progressive - but I don't know if this is just my gut speaking.
Click to expand...

Ok so to start, I'll respond with a part of the Andrew Coyne article that Tiktaalik posted on the previous page.

Indeed, for all their emphasis on the things on which they disagree, there is much more on which the parties are agreed. This is perhaps best expressed in the negative: by the things that none of the party leaders will say in the debate, beginning with the above — that the economy doesn’t much care who is in power.

The government doesn’t actually “run” the economy, at least in the way that people in politics like to pretend. Governments have little ability to influence the rate of economic growth in the short run, at least in the positive sense: though they can certainly screw it up, notably by letting inflation get out of hand. It is achievement enough for any government that it avoids doing so. But I doubt you will hear any of the leaders say, “If elected, I promise not to screw things up.”
Click to expand...

In other words, a particular party's economic platform is the least of your worries. It's not worthless or insignificant, mind you, but be aware that they are mostly serving you platitudes.

If you want to scrutinize a party's plan for the budget, a good place to start is to ask 'Is it realistically costed?' Parties will often drum up some either some magical source of revenue that no one has heard of until now or they will forecast some very optimistic revenue streams from various sectors.

More specifically, things like the discussion on first past the post, and how the liberals are adamant about abolishing it, and switching to ranked ballots really appeals to me - the NDP are a bit vague on what to do here, but not in a bad way more in a "We need to do more research way" which I can somewhat appreciate, the conservatives obviously want to keep it in place for obvious reasons.
Click to expand...

This is perhaps the issue that as been debated ad nauseam in this thread. Rather than tell you to just go back and read everything, I'll just assume that some of our *ahem* more passionate members on this issue will chime in and give their thoughts (again).
Also the liberals marijuana platform seems the most sensible, but decriminalization from the NDP/Green are great too.
Click to expand...

People like to think that decriminalization is either a sensible middle or at least a good first step before transitioning to legalization. Decriminalization is a smoke screen is my view. Under such a policy, marijuana use/possession would still be an offense, it would just have a financial penalty tied to it. Also, don't assume that any activities related to the drug would no longer carry criminal charges e.g. growing or trafficking.

In the end, decriminalization fails to address one of the biggest problems that has been caused by its prohibition and that is the revenue flow towards organized crime.

So yeah, I'm on board with the Liberals on this issue since they are willing to go all the way on this. Hell, I don't even use weed, but I'm through wasting vast amounts of resources on this 'war on drugs'.


An example of the sort of vagueness when I compare liberal vs ndp is when it comes to stuff like the employment insurance platform - NDP, from the best I can gather is "it's bad now because of harper" but I have trouble finding anything concrete - with liberals, they talk about what they want and why they want it.

Liberals are also very vocal about wanting to spend during this recession, as opposed to the 'balance the budget' language I am hearing from Cs and NDPs - which is not particularly useful, as far as I understand.
Click to expand...
'Balanced budgets' have become fetishized in our politics where apparently the only responsible way to run a government is by balancing the books every years. This is a myth that seems to continue to persist and we can't seem to get rid of.

I could go on, but I think that's a general idea of what I see and what is appealing to me. There's a lot more, but I really really don't think I have a very deep understanding of Canadian politics, and those little polls I do just reaffirm that I am Liberal > NDP >>>>>> C (I know we're not three party, but it's convenient for this post to pretend we are).

I want to have my position challenged and I am hoping to really start to tune into what's going on, so I'll hopefully frequent this thread more often. And hopefully the upcoming debate is illuminating.
Click to expand...

Well that's all I got for now, hope it helps. I'm thinking we'll be seeing more of our Canadian members come here as Election day approaches and we really get into the thick of it.
 
M

matthewwhatever

Member
Bamelin said:
CPAC wtf. Is this debate not important enough to be on one of the major Canadian networks accessible OTA?
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The major networks are behind the broadcast consortium, and Mulcair and Harper have both refused to take part in those. So these non-televised ones are all we're getting with these three leaders.
 
P

Parch

Member
This is a mess. To prevent a guy from finishing a point, they're going to interrupt each other all night aren't they?
 
TheStruggler

TheStruggler

Report me for trolling ND/TLoU2 threads
I dont like this moderator, i get they needs debates to flow etc but this feels just to tight/strict for a debate and doesnt let things settle and flow naturally as they may, even if it's them attacking each other.
 
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