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Canadian PoliGAF - 42nd Parliament: Sunny Ways in Trudeaupia

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Pancake Mix

Copied someone else's pancake recipe
why not Chong? why not Raitt?

LOL Bernier, hahahaha pfff I had to laugh at Max at least once today

seriously bro, Leitch is evil .

Even Mulroney was unable to reverse the abortion laws in the 1980s and Harper didn't even dare touch it. Harper gagged his MPs to shut up about Abortion.

But Leitch??? seriously dude, she would open up that Abortion can again and it would send women back to the 1950s

I'm truly sorry, but arch-capitalists are really scary.

Kevin O'Leary says 3.5 billion people living in poverty is 'fantastic news'

This guy has lost the plot. He'd be really bad for the economy and prestige. He'd be unelectable in any other English-speaking country besides the US, and he's certainly unelectable in Quebec, thankfully.
 

Apathy

Member
O'Leary isn't nearly as radical as Leitch, so no.
they would both be bad though.



Yeah, i don't agree with his polices, but Chong is far and away the most sane and sensible

Which will probably be the reason chong doesn't get selected to be honest. Like you can't be too sane for conservatives, they'd just call him liberal lite.
 

Mailbox

Member
I'm truly sorry, but arch-capitalists are really scary.
compared to freakin Leitch?!
giphy.gif
 

Apathy

Member

Pancake Mix

Copied someone else's pancake recipe
why not Chong?

just say Chong.

you don't like Chong?

He's so moderate in some areas that I don't think he has much of a chance, I'm afraid. Also, isn't his economic plan equally insane? He's no red Tory.

You'd rather have a racist demagogue instead? lol

I'm sorry, but O'Leary is worse and would not govern like a Canadian Prime Minister.

holy shit her face when he says it's fantastic

Yes, hopefully this continues to haunt him.

compared to freakin Leitch?!
giphy.gif

Yes.

Like you are aware of what Leitch has said and her policies and the people she hires for her campaign right?

I would not vote for her. This is about which is worse. O'Leary is worse.
 
Leitch is prefereable to O'Leary.

That man would love to run Canada like a business. He'd be all about getting the more Conservative members of the Conservatives to gut universal health care and social programmes.

...can't we just say they're both vile but for different reasons? And besides, neither one is likely to win the leadership. It's a preferential ballot, which rewards middle-of-the-road candidates. O'Toole, Raitt and Scheer (who is actually a pretty scary social conservative beneath his bland façade) all stand a much better chance of winning.

EDIT: reading your other responses, I get the sense you're one of those "heighten the contradictions" people. In which case...words fail me.

Which will probably be the reason chong doesn't get selected to be honest. Like you can't be too sane for conservatives, they'd just call him liberal lite.

I think Chong has zero chance at winning. I know far, far more CPCers who dislike him and would never vote for him, than ones who actually like him. He's much more liked by people outside the party than in it. Though if your aim is to split the CPC into two parties, he might be your guy.

I shouldn't have to call my MP to tell him I want them to do what they said they were going to do, and that doesn't justify them cancelling that same thing because "idk people didn't call lol"

Guess who was loudest about electoral reform? Conservative supporters. Guess who actually used that survey? Conservative supporters. Guess whose voice carried the day, because of the attitude above? Shocking news: it's the same answer as the previous two questions.

lol

Sorry Liberal voters you were scammed and you fell for it.

Yes. All those Liberal voters who vote solely on the basis of electoral reform. I suspect that if you drew a Venn diagram of people who are genuinely upset by this news and people who are NDP members/voters, you'd basically have a perfect circle.

Now get rid of fixed election dates!

Not sure where you stand on electoral reform, but this wouldn't be the worst idea. As we saw in the last election fixed dates lead to really, really long campaigns, at the expense of governments doing the work of actually governing.
 

orochi91

Member
I can already see how the opposition parties will be attacking the Liberals during the 2019 election campaign.

Liberals make "x" campaign promise(s) in 2019.

Opposition screams "yea yea yea, JUST LIKE ELECTORAL REFORM, right?!", or something similar, and rightly so.

With regards to optics, this current government has been horrible. In a day and age where hyperbole and misinformation can spread like wildfire through social media, they're abysmal at mitigating negative press.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
I can already see how the opposition parties will be attacking the Liberals during the 2019 election campaign.

Liberals make "x" campaign promise(s) in 2019.

Opposition screams "yea yea yea, JUST LIKE CAMPAIGN REFORM, right?!", or something similar, and rightly so.

With regards to optics, this current government has been horrible. In a day and age where hyperbole and misinformation can spread like wildfire through social media, they're abysmal at mitigating negative press.

Let's be real though, other than nerds, no one really cares about electoral reform. And as long as Justin doesn't say he hates Muslims or do something equally stupid, he gets a free pass for as long as everyone is distracted by Trump. lol

Not really a podcast, but I find the At Issue panel as must-view if you're trying to keep up with Canadian politics.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...WkdNgHHuUISVDe
I'm glad CBC has stopped pretending that the internet exists and started just putting everything on youtube.
 

Pancake Mix

Copied someone else's pancake recipe
...can't we just say they're both vile but for different reasons? And besides, neither one is likely to win the leadership. It's a preferential ballot, which rewards middle-of-the-road candidates. O'Toole, Raitt and Scheer (who is actually a pretty scary social conservative beneath his bland façade) all stand a much better chance of winning.

EDIT: reading your other responses, I get the sense you're one of those "heighten the contradictions" people. In which case...words fail me.

Well hopefully a moderate is chosen.

I am not at all, I merely don't have a single area of concern surrounding identity issues. Those are extremely important for many people, but I do have faith that she'd be a better prime minister if such an event occurred.

Most, if not all, of Leitch's shitty social views would get obliterated by the Charter if she tried to implement them.

O'Leary, on the other hand, would succeed in reforming our economic policies. Which means O'Leary poses the bigger danger to Canada.

You are absolutely correct.
 
Most, if not all, of Leitch's shitty social views would get obliterated by the Charter if she tried to implement them.

O'Leary, on the other hand, would succeed in reforming our economic policies. Which means O'Leary poses the bigger danger to Canada.
 

Abelard

Member
So angry about this. Fuck this shit.

Can't risk getting the conservatives in power, even if its Michael Chong- despite his liberal values, he has the same stupid economic policy as the Tories.
 

Tiktaalik

Member
Yes. All those Liberal voters who vote solely on the basis of electoral reform. I suspect that if you drew a Venn diagram of people who are genuinely upset by this news and people who are NDP members/voters, you'd basically have a perfect circle.

I have a friend that volunteers a great deal with his Liberal riding association, regularly knocking on doors post election. He told me the number one issue he hears about is pipelines, but the number two top issue is electoral reform.

It is much too early to gauge the impact of this. I agree it is a niche issue, we are very far from an election and issues south of the border are likely to dominate Canadian political issues for quite some time and are more likely to occupy people's attention. On the other hand this is a brazen breaking of an election promise that was very important to some voters.

It's important to note that the Liberals won not because the Conservatives lost a great deal of votes, but because the Liberals took some NDP support and increased turnout. Long time Liberal voters may not really care about electoral reform, but it is likely that among the new young voters that Trudeau turned out electoral reform was more significant. Disappointing the youth of a party is not a great idea, as these are the enthusiastic people that volunteer and go knock on doors. Taking advantage of them would be a mistake.
 

Mr.Mike

Member
The NDP and the Liberals really aren't so easy to lump together ideologically. Crucially one thing people seem to miss is the part of the NDP base that is socially conservative and would have a Christian Democrat party in an ideal world. I recall a religion teacher in (Catholic) high school who supported the NDP but was super against abortion. (And in defense of the people who are very strongly against abortion, if it is your belief that abortion is indeed murder, then it only really makes sense to fight it wholeheartedly).

It's been said, but I agree that wanting the Liberals to push through electoral reform before it's popular enough is kind of putting the cart before the horse. If electoral reform is actually going to happen then it's going to have to become so popular that that Liberals wouldn't dare to drop it. And we're almost there really. I remember not too long ago people would talk about electoral as a pipe dream. But now it's very much part of the conversation, and it's something that parties campaign on. With a bit more pushing it might actually happen the next time the Liberals retake the government. Bring it up the next time you're with a group of people who start talking about politics.

The most important thing going on in Canada politically right now is the Conservative leadership race. There is a version of the CPC that would enhance Canadian political culture and check the Liberals (especially with the deficit being 20 billion dollars larger than they had campaigned on). But if the populists take over the party it'll be really bad for Canadian politics, even if they don't get into power.
 

Abelard

Member
I have a friend that volunteers a great deal with his Liberal riding association, regularly knocking on doors post election. He told me the number one issue he hears about is pipelines, but the number two top issue is electoral reform.

It is much too early to gauge the impact of this. I agree it is a niche issue, we are very far from an election and issues south of the border are likely to dominate Canadian political issues for quite some time and are more likely to occupy people's attention. On the other hand this is a brazen breaking of an election promise that was very important to some voters.

It's important to note that the Liberals won not because the Conservatives lost a great deal of votes, but because the Liberals took some NDP support and increased turnout. Long time Liberal voters may not really care about electoral reform, but it is likely that among the new young voters that Trudeau turned out electoral reform was more significant. Disappointing the youth of a party is not a great idea, as these are the enthusiastic people that volunteer and go knock on doors. Taking advantage of them would be a mistake.

This is exactly what I feel like- being taken advantage of.

...However I also live in a riding that's going to Liberals/Tories anyways so I can't even protest vote, the Liberals have played us all.
 

Slavik81

Member
lol

Sorry Liberal voters you were scammed and you fell for it.
I voted Liberal with the expectation that they would fail to find public consensus and abandon that promise. Reform might be a good idea, but their lack of a real plan was always a weak spot on their policy sheet.

Today was not the day they failed. If they rammed through major changes to the electoral system without public support... that's a little too similar to how democracy is extinguished.

The actual mistake they made was saying that 2015 would be the last election under the first-past-the-post system. Putting that deadline on reform was a really bad idea when they didn't really know what they were going to do.
 
I'm 41, Chretien lied about scrapping the GST and about NAFTA.... and many other things

so this Electoral Reform scrap is nothing compared to the dodgey LOLs Chrétien maneuvered around

but you know what, that's governing. You pick your battles and leave some.

in the end, NAFTA turned out to be a good thing
 

Apathy

Member
I'm 41, Chretien lied about scrapping the GST and about NAFTA.... and many other things

so this Electoral Reform scrap is nothing compared to the dodgey LOLs Chrétien maneuvered around

but you know what, that's governing. You pick your battles and leave some.

in the end, NAFTA turned out to be a good thing

I really do think people have a weird image that if their party gets into power, that every single thing they campaign on will be completed and it'll all be gum drops and timbits for everyone. No party in history anywhere has been able to keep every promise, even when part of a majority
 

Pancake Mix

Copied someone else's pancake recipe
CETA would be a very good thing right now. I'm all for the Liberals in their support of it. We do need to reduce dependence on our closest friend and ally.

I hope it passes in Europe.
 
The NDP and the Liberals really aren't so easy to lump together ideologically. Crucially one thing people seem to miss is the part of the NDP base that is socially conservative and would have a Christian Democrat party in an ideal world. I recall a religion teacher in (Catholic) high school who supported the NDP but was super against abortion. (And in defense of the people who are very strongly against abortion, if it is your belief that abortion is indeed murder, then it only really makes sense to fight it wholeheartedly).

It's been said, but I agree that wanting the Liberals to push through electoral reform before it's popular enough is kind of putting the cart before the horse. If electoral reform is actually going to happen then it's going to have to become so popular that that Liberals wouldn't dare to drop it. And we're almost there really. I remember not too long ago people would talk about electoral as a pipe dream. But now it's very much part of the conversation, and it's something that parties campaign on. With a bit more pushing it might actually happen the next time the Liberals retake the government. Bring it up the next time you're with a group of people who start talking about politics.

The most important thing going on in Canada politically right now is the Conservative leadership race. There is a version of the CPC that would enhance Canadian political culture and check the Liberals (especially with the deficit being 20 billion dollars larger than they had campaigned on). But if the populists take over the party it'll be really bad for Canadian politics, even if they don't get into power.

I agree with almost everything about this post. The reason the Liberals can drop reform is because there's no constituency for it beyond a very specific subset of the population, who generally seem to assume that their ideas are so self-evidently true, no one needs to be convinced of their merit. As I said upthread, the Conservatives won on this issue because they talked the loudest and mobilized the most people (or, in the case of refusing to hold consultations, didn't mobilize anyone).

Though to your first point, I think that the NDP populist/anti-establishment base has shrunk significantly. Pre-1993/pre-Reform, maybe even pre-Layton, I'd have said that it was a big part of their reason for being, but Layton really took them away from those roots and pushed those people into the CPC.
 

maharg

idspispopd
I don't think there's really all that many "Christian Democrats" in the NDP anymore. The NDP is almost entirely an urban pro-choice, pro-queer, etc. party now. There are still rural prairie people who swing between conservative and NDP (with a strong preference for the former), but this has more to do with a) distrust of the LPC and b) the fact that there are more complexities to rural prairie views on these things than most people give credit for. It's still a pretty small group, though.

I think if anything those people who weren't willing to move to the CPC moved Green.
 

Pancake Mix

Copied someone else's pancake recipe
I don't think there's really all that many "Christian Democrats" in the NDP anymore. The NDP is almost entirely an urban pro-choice, pro-queer, etc. party now. There are still rural prairie people who swing between conservative and NDP (with a strong preference for the former), but this has more to do with a) distrust of the LPC and b) the fact that there are more complexities to rural prairie views on these things than most people give credit for. It's still a pretty small group, though.

I think if anything those people who weren't willing to move to the CPC moved Green.

The NDP does win some rural (almost homogeneously European or indigenous) constituencies. Whether they're socially conservative or liberal, they happily support a progressive party because their policies benefit economically depressed rural areas. They could be Christian democrats, we don't really know. They're not vocal like in the US. Rural Canada can be very, very quiet at times.

The Liberals just aren't as big west of Ontario.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
In my mind, the death of the old NDP happened when Hargrove told the unions to vote "stragetically". I have no idea what effect that might have actually had in reality, but it still sticks in my mind now.
 

bremon

Member
My grandparents were rural constituents and loyal NDP voters when they were alive. Labour / union type reasons from my understanding. I'm not sure they'd recognize the NDP today because the NDP itself doesn't even know what it is anymore. Jean Chrétien was well-liked where I grew up. Paul Martin, not so much.

I'm 41, Chretien lied about scrapping the GST and about NAFTA.... and many other things

so this Electoral Reform scrap is nothing compared to the dodgey LOLs Chrétien maneuvered around

but you know what, that's governing. You pick your battles and leave some.

in the end, NAFTA turned out to be a good thing
I'm sure it seems I'm focusing on your posts a bit much today but I do agree with this post and can concede this point to you. They do need to pick their battles and choose the hills they want to die on carefully.
 
In my mind, the death of the old NDP happened when Hargrove told the unions to vote "stragetically". I have no idea what effect that might have actually had in reality, but it still sticks in my mind now.

they still had a better seat score under Layton and Mulcair compared to their lows of the 1990s under McLaughlin and McDonough

I feel sorry for McLaughlin though, she seemed like a nice lady
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
they still had a better seat score under Layton and Mulcair compared to their lows of the 1990s under McLaughlin and McDonough

I feel sorry for McLaughlin though, she seemed like a nice lady
I can't remember, did the Liberals throw the NDP a bone in 93 when they lost official party status, or were they just shut out? I can't seem to find any information about that.
 
I can't remember, did the Liberals throw the NDP a bone in 93 when they lost official party status, or were they just shut out? I can't seem to find any information about that.

I can't remember much, but I did remember the weirdness of ''regionalism'' in Parliament during that decade with the Bloc and Reform Party bantering about their parts of the country.
 

Mr.Mike

Member
Changing pace a bit, but the idea of a basic income seems to be pretty popular on NeoGAF, and people might be surprised to find there's more support for that sort of thing in the CPC than they had though. As an example, I'd like to bring up the Working Income Tax Benefit, introduced by Harper (yes, Harper). It of course differs from most basic income proposals because it requires people to work. And I suppose if you buy into the thesis that robots will take all of our jobs (something I don't buy into), then it does fail to address your concerns. It does achieve a lot of the other things people want from basic income though.

http://policyoptions.irpp.org/magaz...arty-case-for-the-working-income-tax-benefit/

The WITB was established by the Stephen Harper government in the 2007 budget and further enhanced in the 2009 budget to help the working poor in Canada. It is modelled on the Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC) in the United States, which was introduced under the Gerald Ford administration in 1975 and has subsequently been expanded several times, with support from both Democrats and Republicans.

The policy is attractive across party lines in the US and Canada because it transfers substantial income to the working poor, while encouraging participation in the labour force. It is, in effect, a social welfare program with a strong pro-work bias, which has produced significant results. The EITC has been described as ”the single most effective antipoverty program targeted at working-age households" by the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center, and it counts conservative Speaker Paul Ryan and progressive Senator Elizabeth Warren among its supporters.

...

The design of many low-income benefits often puts low-income Canadians in the difficult dilemma of choosing between pursuing paid work and losing public benefits. The trade-off can be steep. The clawback when one reports income can reach as high as a dollar-for-dollar, and can strongly discourage the decision to re-enter the labour force, particularly if a worker faces substantial transportation or child care costs. A basic test for good public policy should be that government benefits are carefully designed so as to minimize disincentives to engage in paid work.

The designs of the EITC and WITB are somewhat complex (the rate for the WITB, for instance, varies among the provinces or territories), and they differ with regards to their maximum benefits and income thresholds for singles, couples, and persons with disabilities. We will return to the problems resulting from this complexity below. But their basic objectives are the same: to help the working poor find, maintain, and expand employment and still cover their basic living costs.

Evaluation of the WITB's effectiveness is limited for several reasons, including its short lifespan and the program's limited size and scope.

...

The empirical evidence on the EITC in the United States is much richer, for several reasons. It has been in effect for over 40 years, it has undergone repeated changes during this time, and it has been subjected to regular scrutiny. Its effect has been striking:

  • One estimate is that the EITC lifted approximately 6.5 million people, including 3.3 million children, out of poverty in 2015. The number of poor children would have been over 25 percent higher without the EITC.
  • The EITC is directly connected with positive employment outcomes, such as encouraging large numbers of single parents to enter the workforce, contributing to higher wage growth, and even resulting in higher social security contributions and benefits. It also drove a 4 percentage point rise in mothers' employment.
  • Studies show that young children in low-income families that receive the EITC (and/or the Children's Tax Credit), on average, have better health outcomes and perform better in school. An additional $1,000 in EITC benefits received by families with children boosts the children's annual income in adulthood by $883, or 3.7 percent.
  • 61 percent of those who received the EITC between 1989 and 2006 did so for only a year or two at a time.
...

How should we interpret these results in the Canadian context? With a more generous set of child benefits, the effects on children of the WITB will likely be somewhat smaller. It is less clear whether the employment impacts directly associated with the WITB will be bigger or smaller, given Canada's relatively strong welfare programs and child support programs. These unknowns reinforce the need for explicit evaluation of the WITB's effectiveness.

The case for expanding the WITB is strong, based on the preliminary evidence from its first 10 years of existence and the considerable body of research on the EITC. But three other reasons to expand it are worth mentioning here.

The first is that the political preoccupation with the middle class has led to a perverse scenario whereby upper-middle-income earners are receiving disproportionate benefits from the federal government relative to low-income Canadians, including the recent lowering of the second-lowest tax rate from 22 percent to 20.5 percent.

...

The second is that the recent US election shows there is a critical need for a positive policy agenda that addresses the needs of workers dislocated by automation, trade, and other factors. Canadian policy-makers must be proactive and preclude the type of economic disconnect between blue-collar workers and the political class that fuelled the recent election of Donald Trump. While the WITB is not a substitute for a broader economic package to help regions undergoing permanent, structural change, it would serve to aid struggling workers in those parts of the country and show that they have not been forgotten by the federal government.

The third is that the Trudeau government has committed to deficit spending in the name of ”inclusive growth," and the evidence suggests that incremental increases to spending on the WITB is among the most effective means of achieving Ottawa's stated goals and priorities.

And I'll point out that part of Chong's plan is to double the WITB.

PS. Also his massive income tax cuts are supposed to be balanced by a carbon tax, so his proposals aren't as radical as they might seem the way they're presented on his site. In general he wants to shift from income taxes to consumption taxes, and not so much reduce taxes massively. I've argued the benefits of a shift to consumption taxes recently too.
 

maharg

idspispopd
... Regressive explicitly means that people who make less spend more of their income (on a % base) on taxes than people who make more. Consumption (and flat, for that matter) taxes are unquestionably regressive. You can't talk your way out of that.

You can sort of fix that through tax credits or explicit cash distribution (which we do with the GST), but that just changes the floor at which it becomes regressive. With GST someone making about $30k/year is paying more of their income in GST than someone making $300k, even if someone under $30k comes out even or maybe ahead with the GST credit. That's what regressive means.

Re. electoral reform again, this is interesting:

https://twitter.com/TondaMacC/status/826918840030330880

Gotta say, one of the more shitshow aspects of this (because anyone thinking good things were going to come of a Lib majority on this file was fooling themselves) is that Trudeau has now handed a stinking pile of shit to two of his ministers and turned one (so far) into a joke because of it.
 

Mr.Mike

Member
... Regressive explicitly means that people who make less spend more of their income (on a % base) on taxes than people who make more. Consumption (and flat, for that matter) taxes are unquestionably regressive. You can't talk your way out of that.

You can sort of fix that through tax credits or explicit cash distribution (which we do with the GST), but that just changes the floor at which it becomes regressive. With GST someone making about $30k/year is paying more of their income in GST than someone making $300k, even if someone under $30k comes out even or maybe ahead with the GST credit. That's what regressive means.

Assuming the poor spend a higher percentage of their income on consumption, which is a pretty safe assumption to be fair, as I acknowledge. But "regressive" isn't solely defined against income.

A regressive tax is a tax imposed in such a manner that the tax rate decreases as the amount subject to taxation increases.

Indeed, this is something you yourself seem to acknowledge when you say that flat taxes are regressive. Flat taxes are by definition not regressive on income. They might be regressive on economic utility of income. But comparing the economic utility of income across different people is impossible as economic utility is inherently subjective, and objectively defining a tax as regressive on it is indeed questionable. I am not unsympathetic to the argument that the poor receive more benefit from a bit more money than the rich, but that argument is outside of the realm of economics.

As an aside, I suspect this difficultly in separating objective economic research from subjectivity is what causes a lot of the distrust of economists. Economists agree on a lot more than most people seem to think. But it isn't the work of economics to decide that inequality is bad or that a higher GDP is good.
 

SRG01

Member
Let's be real though, other than nerds, no one really cares about electoral reform.

Yep. As a supporter of electoral reform, I have no problem in saying that most people do not care about electoral reform. People voted for the Liberals as a part of a package, not on a single-issue basis.

Well, I suppose it may have been a single-issue basis, since people wanted to get rid of Harper, haha :p

I voted Liberal with the expectation that they would fail to find public consensus and abandon that promise. Reform might be a good idea, but their lack of a real plan was always a weak spot on their policy sheet.

Today was not the day they failed. If they rammed through major changes to the electoral system without public support... that's a little too similar to how democracy is extinguished.

The actual mistake they made was saying that 2015 would be the last election under the first-past-the-post system. Putting that deadline on reform was a really bad idea when they didn't really know what they were going to do.

I agree with almost everything about this post. The reason the Liberals can drop reform is because there's no constituency for it beyond a very specific subset of the population, who generally seem to assume that their ideas are so self-evidently true, no one needs to be convinced of their merit. As I said upthread, the Conservatives won on this issue because they talked the loudest and mobilized the most people (or, in the case of refusing to hold consultations, didn't mobilize anyone).

Both of these posts are excellent.
 

SRG01

Member
... Regressive explicitly means that people who make less spend more of their income (on a % base) on taxes than people who make more. Consumption (and flat, for that matter) taxes are unquestionably regressive. You can't talk your way out of that.

You can sort of fix that through tax credits or explicit cash distribution (which we do with the GST), but that just changes the floor at which it becomes regressive. With GST someone making about $30k/year is paying more of their income in GST than someone making $300k, even if someone under $30k comes out even or maybe ahead with the GST credit. That's what regressive means.

Re. electoral reform again, this is interesting:

https://twitter.com/TondaMacC/status/826918840030330880

Gotta say, one of the more shitshow aspects of this (because anyone thinking good things were going to come of a Lib majority on this file was fooling themselves) is that Trudeau has now handed a stinking pile of shit to two of his ministers and turned one (so far) into a joke because of it.

Assuming the poor spend a higher percentage of their income on consumption, which is a pretty safe assumption to be fair, as I acknowledge. But "regressive" isn't solely defined against income.



Indeed, this is something you yourself seem to acknowledge when you say that flat taxes are regressive. Flat taxes are by definition not regressive on income. They might be regressive on economic utility of income. But comparing the economic utility of income across different people is impossible as economic utility is inherently subjective, and objectively defining a tax as regressive on it is indeed questionable. I am not unsympathetic to the argument that the poor receive more benefit from a bit more money than the rich, but that argument is outside of the realm of economics.

As an aside, I suspect this difficultly in separating objective economic research from subjectivity is what causes a lot of the distrust of economists. Economists agree on a lot more than most people seem to think. But it isn't the work of economics to decide that inequality is bad or that a higher GDP is good.

To address both, I have previous mentioned my view that addressing poverty/extreme poverty through tax policy is perhaps the least effective method, primarily because a) the income tax rate is so low; and b) consumption taxes, while larger in proportion, ultimately fall under the same problems that all percentages of small numbers undergo -- that is, the actual amount is superficially small.

The best approach is through income supplementation -- like GIS or OAS that seniors get -- as it directly focuses on the problem of low income without adversely impacting other tax brackets.

Of course, income supplementation is not exclusive to good tax policies, but I often feel that discussions on regressive taxation often lose the greater picture...
 

Tiktaalik

Member
Wow Cullen is super fucking pissed off in the video embedded in this article.

New Democrats Call Trudeau A 'Liar' For Scrapping Electoral Reform


New Democrats embittered by the Liberal government’s about-face on electoral reform have publicly blasted Canada’s prime minister as a “liar.”

It’s a charge that saw one NDP MP lose a question in the House of Commons Wednesday for unparliamentary language, and later apologize for letting anger get the best of him.

NDP democratic reform critic Nathan Cullen kicked things off at a press conference in Ottawa, just moments after new Democratic Institutions Minister Karina Gould made clear that the government will not move forward with Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s promise to reform Canada’s voting system.

“I want to choose my words very carefully,” Cullen said. “I know words matter. The words we speak here and in Parliament matter.”

Then Cullen, not typically known as a hot-head, lowered the boom.

“What Mr. Trudeau proved himself (to be) today was a liar, was to be of the most cynical variety of politician, saying whatever it takes to get elected,” Cullen said.

The veteran B.C. MP charged that instead of Trudeau keeping his word to millions of Canadians who voted Liberal and hundreds of thousands who participated in the electoral reform process, he instead chose to “spit in their face.”

He also suggested, more than once, that Trudeau lacked the “courage” and “fortitude” to announce the change himself and instead sent out his rookie minister.

“It is a Liberal decision today to break their word, it was Mr. Trudeau’s decision today to prove himself a liar. Nobody else’s,” Cullen said.

...


As I recall Cullen's explanation for why he declined to enter the NDP leadership race because he wanted to focus on electoral reform. With that off the table I wonder if he may consider running for leadership.
 
If Trudeau botches any trade agreements with Trump you can bet your ass O'Leary will be next Prime Minister.

why are you pre-emtptively placing blame on Trudeau?

Trump has been irational, irratable and non-coporetative

any Canadian who blames Trudeau for any fuckery caused by Trump should have their alliegiences and their loyalties checked
 

Sibylus

Banned
Nice! More young people need to get in the habit of contacting their MP



Well I don't know what he was doing then, but it sure as shit wasn't raising awareness.

I agree with you! I was so nervous leaving a message regarding the EO that I forgot to mention my name (at least did mention I was a constituent in my given city)
facepalm.gif
 

Vibranium

Banned
Wow Cullen is super fucking pissed off in the video embedded in this article.




As I recall Cullen's explanation for why he declined to enter the NDP leadership race because he wanted to focus on electoral reform. With that off the table I wonder if he may consider running for leadership.

Cullen should just hurry up and run for leadership now, his attempts at electoral reform awareness didn't seem to matter here I guess. Good French lessons are easily accessible and as long as he practices he should be fine.

He's my dream choice and despite being stuck in a Green riding I will vote NDP just out of principle for him.
 
My grandparents were rural constituents and loyal NDP voters when they were alive. Labour / union type reasons from my understanding. I'm not sure they'd recognize the NDP today because the NDP itself doesn't even know what it is anymore. Jean Chrétien was well-liked where I grew up. Paul Martin, not so much.

I think it's tied in with the rise of right-wing evangelical Protestantism. Going back several decades, the prairies had a strong tradition of left-wing Christianity that manifested itself politically as the CCF and the NDP. Guys like Tommy Douglas and JS Woodsworth were ministers before getting into politics, remember. As "social gospel"-stye Christianity gave way to right-wing evangelicals, the NDP's fortunes as a prairie populist party declined, and they were replaced by the Reform Party (who, admittedly, also had roots in a Western Canadian religious tradition of their own). Bill Blaikie tried reviving that tradition when he ran for leadership in 2003, but the party chose Layton instead, and that pretty much cemented their shift from a rural party with some urbanites to being an urban party with the odd rural MP.

Or, at least, that's my theory. I'm sure there's something involving the declining influence of unions and the growth of factory farms and whatnot, too.

I can't remember, did the Liberals throw the NDP a bone in 93 when they lost official party status, or were they just shut out? I can't seem to find any information about that.

I can't find anything official, but Hansard seems to indicate that the NDP had virtually no presence in the House, which suggests that they were indeed shut out.

As I recall Cullen's explanation for why he declined to enter the NDP leadership race because he wanted to focus on electoral reform. With that off the table I wonder if he may consider running for leadership.

I think he's waiting to see how the BC election goes. If the NDP loses again, they'll need a new leader too, and I feel like there'd be a lot less work involved in rebuilding that party than there is in rebuilding the federal NDP. If they win provincially, he's well-known enough that he has more of a luxury of waiting than anyone else, and the field is looking like it'll be thin enough that he could jump in at a late date and immediate be the frontrunner.

If Trudeau botches any trade agreements with Trump you can bet your ass O'Leary will be next Prime Minister.

Completely apart from the notion that O'Leary knows anything at all about international trade or business -- he doesn't; he knows a lot about personal branding and promotion, and that's it -- I'm highly doubtful that the US-Canada trade relationship is going to fall apart so quickly that Kevin O'Leary would be able to ride that to victory by May of this year. He has to win the leadership before he can even think about becoming PM, and at this point, him winning the leadership is still a longshot.
 

Sean C

Member
I think it's tied in with the rise of right-wing evangelical Protestantism. Going back several decades, the prairies had a strong tradition of left-wing Christianity that manifested itself politically as the CCF and the NDP. Guys like Tommy Douglas and JS Woodsworth were ministers before getting into politics, remember. As "social gospel"-stye Christianity gave way to right-wing evangelicals, the NDP's fortunes as a prairie populist party declined, and they were replaced by the Reform Party (who, admittedly, also had roots in a Western Canadian religious tradition of their own). Bill Blaikie tried reviving that tradition when he ran for leadership in 2003, but the party chose Layton instead, and that pretty much cemented their shift from a rural party with some urbanites to being an urban party with the odd rural MP.

Or, at least, that's my theory. I'm sure there's something involving the declining influence of unions and the growth of factory farms and whatnot, too.
The rise of cultural issues also enters into it, I think. The CCF/NDP of old was economically populist and civil libertarian, but a lot of contemporary left-wing thinking on race, culture, feminism, etc. is just outside what Tommy Douglas-style prairie socialism entailed. You see this in rural areas in the USA as well, and in the UK in many old Labour working class constituencies.

On electoral reform, I really don't know what the government was ever trying to achieve on this, and maybe they didn't either for a while. Quite possibly, their initial promise was conceived as the solution to the Harper-era vote splitting problem, but then that problem "resolved" itself and suddenly they weren't interested in making changes. Honestly, though, if they were going to be super-cynical about all this, I'd have just called a referendum on the matter. There's a pretty good chance it would have failed anyway, and then The People would be on the hook.
 
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