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[SRG01]

How are loot boxes any different than, say, buying packs of Magic cards with random rares though?

 

[CazTGG]

Welll, this thread got lively over the past few days.

I think if you just reframe it as gambling for kids, then it'd get a lot more traction.

Then again, with game companies having a big presence in Canada and getting lots of tax dollars, I wouldn't be surprised if there was lobbying to prevent any legislation anyway.

Game companies has a big presence in Japan as well but that hasn't prevented regulatory legislation being put in place for lootcrates, regardless of whether one considers them a form of gambling or not.

How are loot boxes any different than, say, buying packs of Magic cards with random rares though?

Aside from the whole "games are built around these boxes/crates in a highly exploitative manner and often impede the gameplay they're a part of"? I'd recommend reading these recent articles: https://kotaku.com/loot-boxes-are-designed-to-exploit-us-1819457592 / https://www.hardcoregamer.com/2017/10/15/how-loot-boxes-dont-resemble-trading-cards/275720/

 

[firehawk12]

Japan naturally has a pretty big anti-gambling stance though and gacha legislation is tied in part to that. Here we have provinces peddling their lottery and sports gambling stuff to people every day with a small disclaimer about how gambling can ruin your life. lol

 

[Vamphuntr]

How are loot boxes any different than, say, buying packs of Magic cards with random rares though?

Well for once you can always sell or trade your Magic cards while a lot of games with lootboxes don't allow you to do that that especially single player games. Moreover if you buy a pack of Magic you already know the odds or at least can check them online like each booster pack will have a rare, a land, etc.

 

[Mr.Mike]

From the Criminal Code.

Definition of slot machine

(3) In subsection (2), slot machine means any automatic machine or slot machine

(a) that is used or intended to be used for any purpose other than vending merchandise or services, or

(b) that is used or intended to be used for the purpose of vending merchandise or services if

(i) the result of one of any number of operations of the machine is a matter of chance or uncertainty to the operator,

(ii) as a result of a given number of successive operations by the operator the machine produces different results, or

(iii) on any operation of the machine it discharges or emits a slug or token,

but does not include an automatic machine or slot machine that dispenses as prizes only one or more free games on that machine.

🤔

 

[gabbo]

From the Criminal Code.



🤔

Does it have to fit all of those or only check off one?

 

[SRG01]

Well for once you can always sell or trade your Magic cards while a lot of games with lootboxes don't allow you to do that that especially single player games. Moreover if you buy a pack of Magic you already know the odds or at least can check them online like each booster pack will have a rare, a land, etc.

Hmm yeah, that's an angle I didn't consider before. Loot boxes in SP games are definitely exploitative.

 

[Mr.Mike]

Does it have to fit all of those or only check off one?

I read it as (i) and then one of (ii) or (iii) have to be satisfied? I am not a lawyer. I don't think it matters if it's currently illegal or not, since it's a petition and not a court case.

Anyway, so e-petitions can't be longer than 250 words. We'd/I'd have to choose who to address it to. I'm thinking it'll probably get more attention if it's addressed to a specific person. Either the Minister of Industry or the Minister of Justice?

Then there's a section where you list of facts/opinions. Finally, you have to say what action you'd like to see taken or refrained from.

Sample Format for an Electronic Petition

”PETITION TO THE
[A petition must be addressed to one of the following - select one:]

House of Commons
House of Commons in Parliament assembled
Government of Canada
Minister of [name of ministry]
Member of Parliament [name of Member of Parliament]

WHEREAS
[This section is optional: you may here state facts or opinions (known as grievances) supporting your request. A petition may include many grievances, but keep in mind that it may not contain more than 250 words.]

WE, THE UNDERSIGNED,
[Here you may identify, in general terms, who the petitioners are. For example: ”We the undersigned citizens (or residents) of Canada"; ”electors of (name of electoral district)"; ”residents of the Province of (name)"; ”residents of the City (or Village, etc.) of (name)".]

CALL UPON THE
[Indicate whom you would like to take action on your request. It is usually the same addressee as above, but it may be different – select one:]

House of Commons
House of Commons in Parliament assembled
Government of Canada
Minister of [name of ministry]
Member of Parliament [name of Member of Parliament]

TO
[Set out the request by stating succintly what action the petitioners wish the addressee to take or what action it should refrain from taking.] "

I'm not really sure what action specifically I'd request. Update the gambling laws to clarify the legality of loot boxes in video games?

 

[Mr.Mike]

Wheras,
• Increasingly video games feature loot boxes, a consumable virtual item which can be redeemed to provide a random selection of further virtual items
• Loot boxes may often be purchased using real currency
• Loot boxes are designed to be addictive
• Loot boxes are a form of gambling that is currently unregulated
• Children are commonly exposed to loot boxes
• Other countries have passed regulation on loot boxes

Thoughts? Also any ideas on the action to request and which MP to ask to sponsor it?

 

[killer rin]

Thoughts? Also any ideas on the action to request and which MP to ask to sponsor it?

Thats a good start. Though I think it would read better if we swapped the of some of the things. Something like this to emphasize the thing about children being exposed more.

• Increasingly video games feature loot boxes, a consumable virtual item which can be redeemed to provide a random selection of further virtual items
• Children are commonly exposed to loot boxes
• Loot boxes are designed to be addictive
• Loot boxes are a form of gambling that is currently unregulated
• Loot boxes may often be purchased using real currency
• Other countries have passed regulation on loot boxes

I'm just thinking, because while your average politician and staffer will look through the entire petition. We need signatures from average citizens who will be more likely to skip forward onto the next item if it doesn't capture their attention and make them care about the cause immediately

 

[CazTGG]

Just saw a news story on TV (CTV, I think) about a hate group rally occurring in Quebec and that the group behind said rally would be targeting Toronto next. That's going to get...messy, to say the least.

Thoughts? Also any ideas on the action to request and which MP to ask to sponsor it?

Good suggestions, though I think the part about the other countries should be the first of those bullet points and cite examples.

 

[firehawk12]

Thats a good start. Though I think it would read better if we swapped the of some of the things. Something like this to emphasize the thing about children being exposed more.

The "think of the children" angle is probably the "hook" that gets anyone to care about the issue, really.

 

[Mr.Mike]

PETITION TO THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE
Wheras:
• Increasingly video games feature loot boxes, a consumable virtual item which can be redeemed to provide a random selection of further virtual items.
• Children are commonly exposed to loot boxes.
• Loot boxes are designed to be addictive.
• Loot boxes are a form of gambling that is currently unregulated.
• Loot boxes may often be purchased using real currency.
• Often consumers are encouraged to spend more money on loot boxes by offering lower per-unit costs for purchasing a larger amount of loot boxes.
• Other countries have put in place regulation on loot boxes, such as China requiring online game publishers to publicly release the draw probability of all virtual items and services, and Japan which banned the practice of having a predetermined set of items gained from loot boxes which would combine once complete to form a rarer and thus more valuable item.

We, the undersigned, citizens and residents of Canada, call upon the Minister of Justice to put in place regulations governing the sale and advertisement of loot boxes and video games featuring them, such as requiring the disclosure of the draw probability of all virtual items and services obtainable in loot boxes, restricting the sale of games featuring loot boxes to minors, clearly labelling video games that feature loot boxes in advertisements and packaging, and charging sales tax on the sale of loot boxes.

Looking at it now it'd probably make more sense to address this to the Minister of Industry, since mostly it's asking for an industry to be regulated than from something to be made illegal?

I'm just thinking, because while your average politician and staffer will look through the entire petition. We need signatures from average citizens who will be more likely to skip forward onto the next item if it doesn't capture their attention and make them care about the cause immediately

I'd imagine most signatures would come from sharing the petition on various gaming forums and communities. I don't know how many people just browse the Canadian petition website.

Good suggestions, though I think the part about the other countries should be the first of those bullet points and cite examples.

I figure it's probably important to explain what a loot box is before anything else. I have expanded the point about other countries regulations, although I left it at the end because it's the longest.

 

[Mr.Mike]

The "think of the children" angle is probably the "hook" that gets anyone to care about the issue, really.

"Video games are trying to hook your children on gambling with so-called "loot boxes""

 

[AuthenticM]

Does it have to fit all of those or only check off one?

there are two "or" in the section. So a) and b) are either/or, meaning only one has to be satisfied for the section to be applicable. b) has three subparagraphs. Only one of them has to be satisfied for b) to be applicable.

 

[killer rin]

Looking at it now it'd probably make more sense to address this to the Minister of Industry, since mostly it's asking for an industry to be regulated than from something to be made illegal?

I'd imagine most signatures would come from sharing the petition on various gaming forums and communities. I don't know how many people just browse the Canadian petition website.

I figure it's probably important to explain what a loot box is before anything else. I have expanded the point about other countries regulations, although I left it at the end because it's the longest.

Its getting better. But in the part about what other countries have done. Put Japan before China. It'll read better into people's psychological perceptions of each country. China still being the big boogie man and Japan being the one people like the most.

 

[firehawk12]

You could do something like.

Whereas:
*The current industry body responsible for self-regulating video game content, the ESRB, is not adequately equipped to protect children from exposure to gambling practices.
*Current laws do not address the intentional exposure of gambling to children found in video games.

We the undersigned call upon the Government of Canada to provide strict guidelines to video game publishers to protect children from being exposed to gambling before they reach legal gambling age.

I really would highlight the failure of the industry to self-regulate and how it preys on children and people who may have metal health issues related to addiction.

 

[Mr.Mike]

PETITION TO GOVERNMENT OF CANADA
Wheras:
• Increasingly video games feature loot boxes, a consumable virtual item which can be redeemed to provide a random selection of further virtual items.
• Loot boxes may often be purchased using real currency.
• Loot boxes are a form of gambling that is currently unregulated.
• Often consumers are encouraged to spend more money on loot boxes by offering lower per-unit costs for purchasing a larger amount of loot boxes.
• The current industry body responsible for self-regulating video game content, the ESRB, is not adequately equipped to protect children from exposure to gambling practices.
• Current laws do not address the intentional exposure of gambling to children found in video games.
• Other countries have put in place regulation on loot boxes, such as Japan which banned the practice of having a predetermined set of items gained from loot boxes which would combine once complete to form a rarer and thus more valuable item, and China which requires online game publishers to publicly release the draw probability of all virtual items and services.

We, the undersigned, citizens and residents of Canada, call upon the Government of Canada to regulate gambling practices in video games, such as loot boxes, to (a) protect children from being exposed to, and encouraged to participate in, gambling; (b) protect consumers from being pressured to participate in gambling in video games; (c) require the disclosure of draw probabilities of all virtual items and services obtainable from loot boxes.

This is at 243 words currently and the limit is 250.

 

[maharg]

I'm pretty sure gambling is a provincial responsibility in Canada, fwiw.

 

[Mr.Mike]

I'm pretty sure gambling is a provincial responsibility in Canada, fwiw.

According to this it's federal but provinces can offer gambling if they want?

The federal Criminal Code of Canada (Criminal Code) sets out the prohibitions against gambling. It is unlawful to participate in gambling activity except under certain circumstances (Part VII (Disorderly Houses, Gaming and Betting), Criminal Code).
The Criminal Code prohibitions apply both to land-based and online gambling. One significant exemption permits Canadian provincial governments to conduct and manage gambling that would otherwise be illegal under the Criminal Code (either alone or with other provincial governments). Therefore, each provincial government has enacted its own legislative scheme and developed its own regulatory framework for offering gambling to its residents.

 

[Random Human]

Am I nuts or is it kind of messed up that governments run gambling instead of discouraging people from it?

 

[Mr.Mike]

Am I nuts or is it kind of messed up that governments run gambling instead of discouraging people from it?

I suppose part of it might be the theory that it's better to offer a government run alternative than to have a black market for it. But it also runs into the same problem as sin taxes, where it's something the government wants to discourage but if it actually succeeds in dissuading smoking/drinking/gambling the government loses revenue.

 

[matthewwhatever]

According to this it's federal but provinces can offer gambling if they want?

Gambling is regulated by the provinces, though as that article says, online gambling -- which I think you could make a reasonable argument that loot boxes fall under -- are in a legal grey area.

Looking through legislation at the federal level, the only thing I can find related to gaming/gambling is that NDP MPs from Windsor keep putting forward doomed Private Members Bills that would allow for single sport betting (the only time it got through the House, it died in the Senate after an election). To me, that says it'd be pretty difficult to get any movement on a petition, since I suspect most parties view it as a provincial matter.

In an ideal world, you'd be addressing the petition to ISED or Justice. Realistically, though, you may have to present petitions to all thirteen provinces and territories to get anything done. That would...kinda suck. Like, go for the federal level, and look for an MP to sponsor it (maybe a rural CPCer who would be swayed by the "threat to kids" angle?), but keep in mind that getting traction will be tough.

Alternative suggestion: reach out to Michael Geist. I'm not sure what side he would fall on, but I'm sure he'd be able to give you some advice.

 

[Mr.Mike]

Maybe I can ask my MP to add e-sports to his failed private member bills.

Michael Cooper is CPC, on the Justice committee and is relatively young, I might try him? Although the e-petition site does say that an MP sponsoring petition isn't necessarily an indication of support. Also you get 5 tries to try to get different MPs to sponsor your petition.

Maybe I'll also send the petition to Sam Oosterhoff (remember when a 19 year old won Tim Hudak's seat?) for Ontario.

 

[Mr.Mike]

Well, here's a final draft.

PETITION TO THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE
Wheras:
• Increasingly video games feature loot boxes, a consumable virtual item which can be redeemed to provide a random selection of further virtual items.
• Loot boxes may often be purchased using real currency.
• Loot boxes are a form of gambling that is currently unregulated.
• The current industry body responsible for self-regulating video game content, the ESRB, is not adequately equipped to protect children from exposure to gambling practices.
• Current laws do not address the intentional exposure of gambling to children found in video games.
• Other countries have put in place regulation on loot boxes, such as Japan which banned the practice of having a predetermined set of items gained from loot boxes which would combine once complete to form a rarer and thus more valuable item, and China which requires online game publishers to publicly release the draw probability of all virtual items and services.

We, the undersigned, citizens and residents of Canada, call upon the Minister of Justice to regulate gambling practices in video games, such as loot boxes, to (a) protect children from being exposed to, and encouraged to participate in, gambling; (b) protect consumers from being pressured to participate in gambling in video games; (c) require the disclosure of draw probabilities of all virtual items and services obtainable from loot boxes.

If you would like to be a supporter of this petition PM me your first and last name and email address. I would like to submit the petition with 10 potential supporters listed. You will be emailed asking you for more information to validate you identity. The first 5 people to do so will be the supporters of the petition.

I plan to invite Michael Cooper, a Conservative MP on the justice committee, to sponsor it. If he declines we'll have 4 more tries to find someone willing to sponsor the petition. If we get an MP to sponsor the petition it will be posted on the e-petitions site for 120 days where if we can gather 500 signatures it will be presented in the House of Commons within 45 days.

There is a legal grey area regarding whose jurisdiction this topic falls under, but the only way it'll ever get resolved is if we push on it. If the federal government decides this is a provincial matter we can push on the provinces bolstered by the fact the federal government has said it is provincial jurisdiction.

 

[gutter_trash]

Gambling is evil, and it's one of those things that I wouldn't mind seeing made illegal

 

[Mr.Mike]

Gambling is evil, and it's one of those things that I wouldn't mind seeing made illegal

Sir, you might be interested in supporting my petition to ask the Minister of Justice to regulate gambling practices in video games.

Seriously though, I could use a few more supporters. Anyone reading who is a citizen or resident of Canada please feel free to PM me your first and last names and email address. You will be emailed asking you for more information to validate you identity.

 

[matthewwhatever]

Well, here's a final draft.

If you would like to be a supporter of this petition PM me your first and last name and email address. I would like to submit the petition with 10 potential supporters listed. You will be emailed asking you for more information to validate you identity. The first 5 people to do so will be the supporters of the petition.

I plan to invite Michael Cooper, a Conservative MP on the justice committee, to sponsor it. If he declines we'll have 4 more tries to find someone willing to sponsor the petition.

There is a legal grey area regarding whose jurisdiction this topic falls under, but the only way it'll ever get resolved is if we push on it. If the federal government decides this is a provincial matter we can push on the provinces bolstered by the fact the federal government has said it is provincial jurisdiction.

Nicely done. Two comments:

1) I was talking to someone who knows these things, and he said that you may want to play up the international standards aspect of it -- i.e. if it's being done elsewhere, Canada should try and be part of that, rather than lagging behind.

2) Other MPs worth trying:
- Sean Casey (LPC, Charlottetown) - he's moved to the Heritage and Official Languages committees now, but in the previous session, he was on the Justice Committee, and during the hearings on the single-sports betting bill, he talked about the need for better regulation.
- Brian Masse (NDP, Windsor West) - on the downside, he was the one who put forward the single-sports betting legislation, because casinos are so big in Windsor, so he may not want to put forward legislation that inhibits gambling in any way. Points in favour: I found him talking in committee about being a gamer and about thinking about legislation related to e-sports, so he's at least knowledgeable on the subject.
- Elizabeth May (Greens, Saanich-Gulf Islands) - just because she's known for sponsoring lots of petitions, and she once spoke in the House about being opposed to all gambling.

For any others, you'll need to find MPs who come from or are near ridings that don't have a big gaming/software presence.

 

[Pedrito]

Unless you want loot boxes to be a criminal offence, it's a provincial matter.

 

[gutter_trash]

publishers would decide not to release games to certain territories if you start going down the governmental route on Loot Crates

then you'll complain that the game is unavailable to my territory

 

[Mr.Mike]

publishers would decide not to release games to certain territories if you start going down the governmental route on Loot Crates

then you'll complain that the game is unavailable to my territory

And here I thought gambling was evil?

Certainly I'd think Canada is a large enough market that we'd get restricted versions at least.

Unless you want loot boxes to be a criminal offence, it's a provincial matter.

There's a path somewhere here that ends with the Lootbox Control Board of Ontario.

 

[gutter_trash]

Brazil decades ago classified video-games under the same banner as video-lottery that are subject to monstrous sin taxes


Reason being why game prices in Brazil are astronomical and piracy sky high

 

[matthewwhatever]

Maxime Bernier really isn't trying to hide his leadership ambitions:

He also retweeted someone saying he should've won the leadership. So...I guess he's just done with subtlety?

Brazil decades ago classified video-games under the same banner as video-lottery that are subject to monstrous sin taxes


Reason being why game prices in Brazil are astronomical and piracy sky high

That's...not at all relevant? Video games are still sold in Brazil, just at an enormous mark-up. Your argument was that games would no longer be sold here due to heavier regulation. The relevant example would be if, say, Sony stopped selling games in Europe because of the more consumer-friendly climate over there. And since that didn't happen, I very much doubt they'd do that here.

 

[gutter_trash]

to be fair, Max had the leadership stolen from him due to the Dairy Cartel.

now glaze beady eyed Sheere has it

 

[mo60]

to be fair, Max had the leadership stolen from him due to the Dairy Cartel.

now glaze beady eyed Sheere has it

He has probably learned by now to not ignore the all powerful dairy cartel.

 

[Pedrito]

He has probably learned by now to not ignore the all powerful dairy cartel.

The US have apparently officially required that Canada get rid of supply management today. Time to do your magic dairy cartel...

 

[CazTGG]

Andrew Scheer abruptly ended his press conference when I asked him about his campaign manager's ties to Rebel Media: https://twitter.com/l_stone/status/919982189126746113

Hmm...

 

[SRG01]

The US have apparently officially required that Canada get rid of supply management today. Time to do your magic dairy cartel...

Well, the US also has its own powerful dairy sector. Why do you think they want to come to Canada? :/

 

[Mr.Mike]

Quebec set to pass law banning face coverings for anyone receiving public service — even a bus ride

Muslim women in Quebec who wear a burka or niqab could soon be required to uncover their faces to ride a city bus under a proposed provincial law.

The Couillard government's Bill 62 on religious neutrality could be put to a vote as early as Tuesday, two years after it was tabled.

The controversial legislation would effectively ban public workers — including doctors, nurses, teachers and daycare workers — as well as those receiving a service from the government, from wearing the niqab, burka or any other face covering.

Amendments introduced in August extended the proposed rules to services offered by municipalities, including public transit.

"As long as the service is being rendered, the face should be uncovered," Quebec Justice Minister Stéphanie Vallée said Monday in an interview with Daybreak host Mike Finnerty.

"This is a bill about le vivre ensemble [living together in harmony], it's a bill about guidelines and clearly establishes neutrality of the state."

The legislation, she said, is necessary for "communication reasons, identification reasons and security reasons."

Once the bill is passed, the province will work with municipalities, schools and public daycares to "establish clear guidelines," she said.

Vallée said the law would be the first of its kind in North America.

The bill has been subject to criticism from those who contend it unfairly targets Muslim women, while the two main opposition parties, the Parti Québécois and Coalition Avenir Québec, have argued it doesn't go far enough.

The Liberals hold a majority of seats at Quebec's National Assembly.

 

[Random Human]

Andrew Scheer abruptly ended his press conference when I asked him about his campaign manager's ties to Rebel Media: https://twitter.com/l_stone/status/919982189126746113

Hmm...

It’s amazing that months later they don’t have a handle on this issue.

 

[CazTGG]

Quebec set to pass law banning face coverings for anyone receiving public service — even a bus ride

Disgusting. I hope this is struck down via a court of law.

 

[maharg]

Quebec set to pass law banning face coverings for anyone receiving public service — even a bus ride

lol the constitutional challenge of this will be fun.

 

[mlclmtckr]

My dad's family are all liberal Muslims (to varying degrees) and they hate, hate, hate the burqa. Moreso than any non-Muslim I've heard talk about it.

And yet every single one of them (and I) are aware that this is pure Islamophobic bullshit.

 

[Azzanadra]

Quebec set to pass law banning face coverings for anyone receiving public service — even a bus ride

My problem with this sort of thing is that if it is a case of patriarchal attitudes (which it is) they always seem to go after the victims. In Quebec, France etc.

 

[killer rin]

Andrew Scheer abruptly ended his press conference when I asked him about his campaign manager's ties to Rebel Media: https://twitter.com/l_stone/status/919982189126746113

Hmm...

Man, those twitter comments. I'm not one to call people out, but some of those people need to have their heads checked out. Thats just sad. I mean, they can't even get the news agency they are mad at right and are talking about her not covering something that she had covered extensively before and after that tweet in question. LIke my hopes for humanity aren't very high to begin with, but this is just pure stupidity.

On topic though. I can't believe the CPC still doesn't have this under control yet. Like seriously, a period or two out of government is the best possible thing for them. Give them 1-2 terms out so they have enough time to shuffle the house and they would be right back in charge with a free fresh restart. The longer they extend this process by refusing to clean house is the longer the are going to be allowing the Liberals free reign in the house.

 

[Vamphuntr]

lol the constitutional challenge of this will be fun.

Some jobs here already require you to do this. It's just part of their ethics code so they avoid legal issue this way I would think. I work in a hospital and the one I joined two weeks ago had this in their ethics brochure. It's specifically stated that you must give service to patient with your face visible and that they don't allow anything that can cover your face fully even religious item. It makes sense in an hospital context though.

 

[KernelPanic]

Man those Twitter comments.... instead of attacking CNN and defending Breitbart like in the US it’s CBC and Rebel Media up here.

Same fucking bots. I refuse to believe those are real people talking.

 

[djkimothy]

Man those Twitter comments.... instead of attacking CNN and defending Breitbart like in the US it’s CBC and Rebel Media up here.

Same fucking bots. I refuse to believe those are real people talking.

Sometimes I click their names, half expecting a russian coordinate.

 

[DopeyFish]

if you guys think that's bad... look at CBC article from today about immigration

my first thought when clicking the article was... "how in the holy fuck is there 7000 comments?"

it's like all bots. it's terrifying.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/immigration-levels-2018-canada-1.4347339

 

[Mr.Mike]

Here's a fun CSE report on the topic.