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[Margalis]

The interesting thing about framerate, is it has nothing to do with how fast the machine responds.

You don't see the results of your actions until the next frame, period. "How fast the machine responds" is almost completely irrelevant if you can't see the response onscreen.

Back in the days of 16 bit color there were people who said that the human eye could not distinguish any more colors than that and that anything above 16 bit color was a waste. Same with 24 bit color. Same with AV cables, and S-VHS cables. Same with 24 / 30 / 60 fps.

The fact is the human eye can very easily distinguish between 30 and 60 fps, and that 24 fps is only the standard for movies because animating things at 24 fps is cheaper than animating them at 30 while still looking passable.

Some people could probably tell the difference between 40 and 60, and some people between 50 or 60.

If you see them side by side you can tell unless you have severe vision problems.

 

[DenogginizerOS]

Looking at Blim's video, I fail to see anything that tells me the game is suffering framerate issues. Perhaps the deliberate slowdown of the game when Gabriel connects is throwing the stats off?

 

[Y2Kev]

Looking at Blim's video, I fail to see anything that tells me the game is suffering framerate issues. Perhaps the deliberate slowdown of the game when Gabriel connects is throwing the stats off?

I see some slowdown in some of the non-interactive transitions.

But the demo is months old...

 

[DenogginizerOS]

I see some slowdown in some of the non-interactive transitions.

But the demo is months old...

I am not going to change my plans. This game looks and sounds awesome. So pumped.

 

[NeoUltima]

Game got an 8 from GamesTM.

For reference, since people like to compare it to GoW, GowIII got an 8 as well.

 

[Y2Kev]

Game got an 8 from GamesTM.

For reference, since people like to compare it to GoW, GowIII got an 8 as well.

of COURSE it is excellent, kojima made it

 

[LowParry]

Game got an 8 from GamesTM.

For reference, since people like to compare it to GoW, GowIII got an 8 as well.

The game is already exceeding what GoW3 tried to do. However I'll be impressed if they can pull of a bigger fighter than a certain titan.

 

[pseudocaesar]

Game cant come soon enough

 

[FreedomFrisbee]

You don't see the results of your actions until the next frame, period. "How fast the machine responds" is almost completely irrelevant if you can't see the response onscreen.

Back in the days of 16 bit color there were people who said that the human eye could not distinguish any more colors than that and that anything above 16 bit color was a waste. Same with 24 bit color. Same with AV cables, and S-VHS cables. Same with 24 / 30 / 60 fps.

The fact is the human eye can very easily distinguish between 30 and 60 fps, and that 24 fps is only the standard for movies because animating things at 24 fps is cheaper than animating them at 30 while still looking passable.

I'm... fairly sure that the bulk of that statement is just saying things at me and not really disputing my point. You seemed to have missed (or I didn't explain well enough) that you could do something, not see it happen for the next millisecond or whatever, and still have it be happening under the hood. Just because you don't see it happening doesn't mean that it isn't happening. I could give examples but thats a potential essay right there.

People saying things about colors and framerates are rather irrelevant. It's not like I'm claiming that the human eye can't see at 120fps or something.

One of my sticking points was that the framerate didn't matter because of reaction times. Please keep in mind that something at 24 fps is refreshing every .05 seconds. 60 fps is a refresh every .016 seconds. You would be telling me that the ability to see a said action 3.4 HUNDRETHS of a second quicker would make or break your gameplay? Come on now. You can only react so fast. Being able to tell that something is 30 or 60 fps doesn't make much of a difference. It's pure eye candy.

But hey, some people like eye candy. It certainly doesn't hurt. I'm just telling people that it's not going to effect anything. Certainly not a reason to not buy an excellent looking game.

 

[Y2Kev]

I'm... fairly sure that the bulk of that statement is just saying things at me and not really disputing my point. You seemed to have missed (or I didn't explain well enough) that you could do something, not see it happen for the next millisecond or whatever, and still have it be happening under the hood. Just because you don't see it happening doesn't mean that it isn't happening. I could give examples but thats a potential essay right there.

People saying things about colors and framerates are rather irrelevant. It's not like I'm claiming that the human eye can't see at 120fps or something.

One of my sticking points was that the framerate didn't matter because of reaction times. Please keep in mind that something at 24 fps is refreshing every .05 seconds. 60 fps is a refresh every .016 seconds. You would be telling me that the ability to see a said action 3.4 HUNDRETHS of a second quicker would make or break your gameplay? Come on now. You can only react so fast. Being able to tell that something is 30 or 60 fps doesn't make much of a difference. It's pure eye candy.

But hey, some people like eye candy. It certainly doesn't hurt. I'm just telling people that it's not going to effect anything. Certainly not a reason to not buy an excellent looking game.

Maybe that makes sense for one isolated action, but if things are happening under the hood and you can't see them, how can you, like, continue to play the game?

 

[Spike]

It is if you still have an 20GB HDD.

True, but you can also buy a USB thumb drive.

 

[ZeroRay]

One of my sticking points was that the framerate didn't matter because of reaction times. Please keep in mind that something at 24 fps is refreshing every .05 seconds. 60 fps is a refresh every .016 seconds. You would be telling me that the ability to see a said action 3.4 HUNDRETHS of a second quicker would make or break your gameplay? Come on now. You can only react so fast. Being able to tell that something is 30 or 60 fps doesn't make much of a difference. It's pure eye candy.

The time it takes to process something at 60fps and the time it takes for feedback to be apparent on screen is significant. Especially considering outside factors such as the display lag on your TV.

This article explains my point a lot better than I could articulate it:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-lag-factor-article

 

[FreedomFrisbee]

Maybe that makes sense for one isolated action, but if things are happening under the hood and you can't see them, how can you, like, continue to play the game?

See my bit about refresh times please. To make it plainly clear, in a 24fps environment, you would be seeing your actions every .05 seconds. If you're losing actions within the span of time that the screen refreshes, that would mean that things are happening within less than .05 seconds. At which is actually physically impossible to react to (assuming human reaction time is .1 seconds as wikipedia says it is).

Long and short of it, the hypothetical you posed won't happen.

The time it takes to process something at 60fps and the time it takes for feedback to be apparent on screen is significant. Especially considering outside factors such as the display lag on your TV.

There are ways to work around the TV lag. Rock Band or Guitar Hero do it (maybe both, I'm not sure). Wired controller lag is imperceptible. Wireless controllers have a millisecond of lag? I think? That's not enough to make a difference (it's a thousandth of a second). I'm having trouble finding an exact figure for that though.

Unrelated, I can use that article for a class assignment. Thanks.

 

[neojubei]

The game is already exceeding what GoW3 tried to do. However I'll be impressed if they can pull of a bigger fighter than a certain titan.

what did GOW3 try to do exactly?

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

I really hope the game is better than God of Snore 3. I don't think I could handle 20+ hours of that monotony.

 

[LowParry]

what did GOW3 try to do exactly?

Be epic. And it failed pretty hard. GoW2 succeeded in that however.

 

[Margalis]

I'm... fairly sure that the bulk of that statement is just saying things at me and not really disputing my point. You seemed to have missed (or I didn't explain well enough) that you could do something, not see it happen for the next millisecond or whatever, and still have it be happening under the hood.

That also means that an enemy could do something, it could happen under the hood, and you wouldn't be able to even begin to react to it until the next refresh.

When old games that run lockstep suffer slowdown the experience generally doesn't change other than run at half speed - which has the effect of making things like dodging bullets actually easier. When newer games suffer slowdown it often means that action is missed, making things like dodging bullets harder because they get fired "under the hood" and you don't see them onscreen until they're in your grill.

That's not a good thing.

You would be telling me that the ability to see a said action 3.4 HUNDRETHS of a second quicker would make or break your gameplay?

You can't react to something until it is onscreen. That has nothing to do with reaction time. Reaction time is a measure of how fast you can react to a stimulus. To begin reacting at all you need a stimulus and in games the stimulus is the screen refresh. Your total time to react to an in-engine event is your reaction time plus any display delay. The longer the delay the longer your operational reaction time to in-game events is.

Not to mention other factors like slower refreshes feeling less responsive etc.

If you're losing actions within the span of time that the screen refreshes, that would mean that things are happening within less than .05 seconds.

If the engine runs faster than the display then things happen in less time than the screen refresh by definition.

 

[neojubei]

Be epic. And it failed pretty hard. GoW2 succeeded in that however.

I'll disagree. GOW3 was epic.

Time to watch Blimm's video

edit: Whoa that was an awesome video Blim. Wish i had the demo now.

 

[FreedomFrisbee]

That also means that an enemy could do something, it could happen under the hood, and you wouldn't be able to even begin to react to it until the next refresh.

When old games that run lockstep suffer slowdown the experience generally doesn't change other than run at half speed - which has the effect of making things like dodging bullets actually easier. When newer games suffer slowdown it often means that action is missed, making things like dodging bullets harder because they get fired "under the hood" and you don't see them onscreen until they're in your grill.

That's not a good thing.

You can't react to something until it is onscreen. That has nothing to do with reaction time. Reaction time is a measure of how fast you can react to a stimulus. To begin reacting at all you need a stimulus and in games the stimulus is the screen refresh. Your total time to react to an in-engine event is your reaction time plus any display delay. The longer the delay the longer your operational reaction time to in-game events is.

Not to mention other factors like slower refreshes feeling less responsive etc.

See, there you go telling me that 3.4 hundreths of a second will make a difference.

If the engine runs faster than the display then things happen in less time than the screen refresh by definition.

This part of your response tells me you aren't understanding something or I'm not explaining it right.

Things are occurring, but not things that you aren't going to see because of the 3.4 hundreths of a second gap. Something would have to come onto a screen, and leave, within that amount of time for you to not see it happen.

And from that linked article, the lag would have to be .166 seconds for you to notice any kind of controller lag (which backs up my previously stated speed of .1 seconds), so there.

 

[Y2Kev]

FreedomFrisbee-- I think our wires got crossed. I didn't mean specifically in the case of 24 FPS. I am challenging the assertion that responsiveness and framerate are not linked. If a game ran at 1FPS, would your supposition hold? Or say 10 FPS, as many beloved games do and did?

 

[FreedomFrisbee]

FreedomFrisbee-- I think our wires got crossed. I didn't mean specifically in the case of 24 FPS. I am challenging the assertion that responsiveness and framerate are not linked. If a game ran at 1FPS, would your supposition hold? Or say 10 FPS, as many beloved games do and did?

Ha. God no, 1 fps being shown with 60 fps under the hood, with a modern game? That would be quite laughable. I'm specifically not saying it works with anything less than 24 fps because below that threshold people start to notice the choppiness (which is why film settled on it). If the time between frame refreshes got to that .1 reaction time (which would be 10 fps) that would be the absolute bare minimum of playability. Lower would be horrendous.

Star Wars Unleashed 2. Aren't they doing some kind of thing that makes the framerate appear smooth 60 fps or something when it's only actually 30? I remember hearing something about that. I think you could see how that's related.

Also, give me an example of a 10 fps game so I know what you're talking about.

 

[Spike]

I really hope the game is better than God of Snore 3. I don't think I could handle 20+ hours of that monotony.

:lol
Thank you for summing it up so perfectly.

 

[brandonh83]

I really hope the game is better than God of Snore 3. I don't think I could handle 20+ hours of that monotony.

It was the biggest disappointment of the year for me, and I've played FFXIII.

Anyway, just finished the OT. Now to wait until Monday at midnight...

 

[Owzers]

It was the biggest disappointment of the year for me, and I've played FFXIII.

Anyway, just finished the OT. Now to wait until Monday at midnight...

March was the month of fail gaming.

 

[En-ou]

I really hope the game is better than God of Snore 3. I don't think I could handle 20+ hours of that monotony.

joke post right?

 

[Y2Kev]

can we not do this lol

Frisbee: say something like sotc, which does drop pretty far.

 

[Gravijah]

can we not do this lol

Frisbee: say something like sotc, which does drop pretty far.

Come on dude, you gotta yell with some authority! YOU'RE A MOD! RAWR!

 

[Margalis]

If the time between frame refreshes got to that .1 reaction time (which would be 10 fps) that would be the absolute bare minimum of playability. Lower would be horrendous.

You keep using the term "reaction time" but I don't think you know what it means. It has nothing to do with framerate.

 

[Y2Kev]

This game looks like it has the highest budget for any non-MG Konami game in forever. The graphics are simply astounding. The details in the travel book look great, too. The animation of each of Gabriel's moves looks really cool. That's stuff you usually only see in AAA games.

If I had one obvious critique of the gameplay footage, it's that the camera zooms out during the "mash X" qte. This seems kind of dumb. Keeping the camera close (zoomed in on the wolf's teeth) would heighten the drama of the scene and also make it seem like the non-interactive part seamlessly blended into the gameplay instead of cut to it.

 

[brandonh83]

This game looks like it has the highest budget for any non-MG Konami game in forever. The graphics are simply astounding. The details in the travel book look great, too. The animation of each of Gabriel's moves looks really cool. That's stuff you usually only see in AAA games.

I would kill for a GIF of any hand-drawn attack animation to put in the OT

*cough*

 

[Gravijah]

I've actually been ignoring this game, saw the trailer though... Quite excited for it.

 

[Foffy]

March was the month of fail gaming.

B-but Mega Man 10 came out in March! ):

Oh wait...that was really easy. Not Mega Man difficult, even on Normal...

Maybe you're right. ;____;

I can't wait to try the demo on Tuesday, but man, things are going to get crazy for this game then. The demo comes out on Tuesday, I think the trailer with Super Castlevania IV music is out (narrated by Jacon Issacs), review sites will have their embargoes lifted I think, AND the strategy guide is out, a solid week before the full game.

Crazy times. I don't think Castlevania has had anything close to that kind of hype train in years. I've also been playing some of the older games, getting myself hyped for it. I don't think Lament of Innocence, Judgment, and Harmony of Despair are the franchises' best candidates of fantastic games, though! :lol

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

joke post right?

Not joking. It's my least favourite of the series. Though to be fair, the game's biggest fault is being a rather unambitious (gameplay-wise) fourth iteration of a series I only got into two and a half years ago.

 

[No_Style]

Did they show off the 360 version at any trade shows? If so, how was that version?

There's a $10 off promotion going on at FutureShop in Canada, I'm wondering which version to pick up.

Edit: Looks like they're using L2/R2 for main actions according TTP. Going for the 360 version unless there's a way to change that.

 

[Mrbob]

No one knows yet. I guess PS3 is the lead version so general consensus is it is the best version but no comparison out.

 

[Foffy]

Did they show off the 360 version at any trade shows? If so, how was that version?

There's a $10 off promotion going on at FutureShop in Canada, I'm wondering which version to pick up.

I think they did at E3, and I don't recall anybody saying that the versions were different there..

Games Akutell also said in their review that both versions are identical, and they were the first to review the game.

 

[vazel]

Ha. God no, 1 fps being shown with 60 fps under the hood, with a modern game? That would be quite laughable. I'm specifically not saying it works with anything less than 24 fps because below that threshold people start to notice the choppiness (which is why film settled on it). If the time between frame refreshes got to that .1 reaction time (which would be 10 fps) that would be the absolute bare minimum of playability. Lower would be horrendous.

Star Wars Unleashed 2. Aren't they doing some kind of thing that makes the framerate appear smooth 60 fps or something when it's only actually 30? I remember hearing something about that. I think you could see how that's related.

Also, give me an example of a 10 fps game so I know what you're talking about.

Film at 24fps has motion blur. Games don't do motion blur as good as film does. Even if it did videogames would still ideally need 60fps for better controller input responsiveness. I guess this is what we get with so many people getting used to the chuggy framerates of consoles this gen.

Edit: Here is an app that shows motion juddering difference between 30fps and 60fps. http://www.esnips.com/doc/799f56d6-9761-4dc3-8f39-ad5a49aa9042/FPS_Compare
For a comparison of input responsiveness between 30fps and 60fps try to find a PC game that lets you cap framerates. Input responsiveness is very evident on the mouse. I think Source engine games let you cap framerate by command console.

Edit2: Here's an app that lets you cap framerates. http://www.mediafire.com/?2zzggw2zmym

 

[Lord Error]

Despite some of GoW3's problems, I really have a hard time believing this game will top it in either gameplay, graphics, or overall 'epicness'. The reason is that watching the gameplay videos that I've seen so far the game really looks so similar to GoW in its execution, but not as good, simple as that. Combat seems to lack that crazy impact and force that GoW3 had, and so do gameplay animations. Graphics look pretty great but from what I just read, run at half the framerate (GoW3 was hovering between 40-60FPS while still being one of the best looking games ever made, this is averaging 25) and while the trailers hinted at some epic boss battles, there was always a lingering feeling of been there done that, as this is coming after several games in series that did the same thing, bettering itself in that sense each time.

On the other hand production values and cutscene animations look really great, atmosphere is top notch, and I just wish I could play it instead of having to base my opinion just on videos.

 

[HomerSimpson-Man]

Despite some of GoW3's problems, I really have a hard time believing this game will top it in either gameplay, graphics, or overall 'epicness'. The reason is that watching the gameplay videos that I've seen so far the game really looks so similar to GoW in its execution, but not as good, simple as that. Combat seems to lack that crazy impact and force that GoW3 had, and so do gameplay animations. Graphics look pretty great but from what I just read, run at half the framerate (GoW3 was hovering between 40-60FPS while still being one of the best looking games ever made, this is averaging 25) and while the trailers hinted at some epic boss battles, there was always a lingering feeling of been there done that, as this is coming after several games in series that did the same thing, bettering itself in that sense each time.

On the other hand production values and cutscene animations look really great, atmosphere is top notch, and I just wish I could play it instead of having to base my opinion just on videos.

Comparing to Team Santa Monica technical wizardry is just not fair in general for most games (or most devs for that matter) though. They went for 60fps as there goal and even had motion blur on top of it!

EDIT: Oh, and godly AA.

 

[neojubei]

It was the biggest disappointment of the year for me, and I've played FFXIII.

Anyway, just finished the OT. Now to wait until Monday at midnight...

I'm not going to go there, God of War 3 was awesome.

That said Castlevania looks heaps better than Enslaved, so Castlevania is it for me next month.

Hopefully Castlevania will be as awesome as God of War or even half as awesome.

 

[Spike]

Did they show off the 360 version at any trade shows? If so, how was that version?

They showed it at E3 and GamesCom, for sure. Possibly at PAX.

 

[neojubei]

Comparing to Team Santa Monica technical wizardry is just not fair in general for most games (or most devs for that matter) though. They went for 60fps as there goal and even had motion blur on top of it!

EDIT: Oh, and godly AA.

Yeah its not fair Sony Santa Monica pulled off some awesome stuff in God of War 3, but I do believe that MercurySteam and Kojima Productions will bring their own level of awesome in the game.

 

[SenorDingDong]

Lords of Shadow delayed in Australia until 14 October 2010...

... RAAAAAGE.

Where was this mentioned? It's still listed as the 7th on the EBGames and PALGN release lists.

 

[Maffis]

dat music.

seriously, I'm buying this game solely for that theme alone. ok not really, but it's that good.

 

[infinityBCRT]

Should easily be able to do that. Option for the second disc should be straight from the dashboard. Should be play all installed from the second disc. All devs should be doing this going forward, thanks Konami.



Where is said comparison btw? Interested to know how the 360 version holds up.

Actually I think it would make more sense if it was play all installed from the first disc, otherwise, it'd be real easy to share the game with friends by letting them play through the first half of the game while you can play the whole game on your second disc.

 

[Hydrargyrus]

For what I know, the second stage is fantastic, but the rest is, how to say, only good.

That's something that told me one member of the Mercury steam... but this is subjective.

It's seems like it's going to be a good game, around 8-8'5 in metacritic

 

[Blimblim]

Shall I do a video of the second part of the demo? I played really badly when I recorded yesterday so I'd have to record it again.
Anyone to tell me what I'm supposed to do when I'm riding the horse and I get a circle closing in? I suppose I have to use L2+a direction, but it doesn't seem to be doing anything.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Shall I do a video of the second part of the demo? I played really badly when I recorded yesterday so I'd have to record it again.
Anyone to tell me what I'm supposed to do when I'm riding the horse and I get a circle closing in? I suppose I have to use L2+a direction, but it doesn't seem to be doing anything.

Just push one of the face buttons when the circle lines up, I think.

 

[Blimblim]

Just push one of the face buttons when the circle lines up, I think.

Ok, I'll give it another try then

 

[Blimblim]

Alright, that was much easier this time around, I didn't even get any of those circles. Just concentrate on the wargs so that they can't even come close, and that's it. Fighting is also easier when not jetlagged

Video encoding, should be up in 30 minutes or so.