jakonovski
Member
Whatever happens, the escalation means Spain really scores an own goal here. There's no win in civil conflict even if it's only an economic one.
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Catalan Independence Referendum(1-O) - The aftermath
- Thread starter turmoil
- Start date
Business
Member
893 is the number of people that seeked medical attention because of police brutality.
https://twitter.com/salutcat/status/914778176781537280/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.vilaweb.cat%2Fnoticies%2Fsalut-explica-que-ja-hi-ha-456-persones-ferides-per-lassalt-policiac-al-referendum%2F
Getting hit in the head with a police batton or in the leg with a rubber bullet is no joke and certainly qualifies as being injured, you don't need to lose an eye.
The number that's on the 100's is the number of people that felt their injuries were bad enough to take the medical report and sue.
Quoting to expose you. How can you come here and spit this bullshit just like that is beyond me.
Most likely, the latter. Catalan banks already are looking for a way out after their share took a dive. Plus if Catalan government really goes forward with UDI, there will be quite a lot of uncertainty at very least and civil war at most. I'm pretty sure the companies hate uncertainty.
Maybe I miss the nuances of the language, but isn't that states that 893 is the total number of people who required medical assistance in Catalonia during the referendum, without making any causal link (sure, a good part of it might be because of the police violence, but not all).
Thank god I'm as far as possible (within Spain) from this mess lol
Our government is retarded. All this crap because of a fucking vote that if allowed would have resulted on a "no".
Probably it's related with the movement of the Spanish stock market and Risk premium last days.
Some companies can need a provisional safe place while it lasts this issue.
Bitcoin?
Business
Member
Yes you do miss the nuances of the language. It literally says due to the actions of the Spanish police. Were you really suggesting the Catalan public health system was trying to pass ordinary medical issues as injuries inflicted by the police? Disappointing.
The tenacity to try to downplay Sunday's police brutality is really quite astonishing, even with the overwhelming video evidence there is.
Ah, I missed the "injured" in the second phrase, you're right.
Turin Turambar
Member
Wait.
What defines a nation. Are you arbitrarily saying that some nations are real states and some are 'fake' multi-nation states?
The formation of Spain isn't that different from any other country in the world, I would say. Hell, it was fairly pacific, all things considers. It isn't like Castilla subjugated and enslaved Catalonia and other regions.
And what are 'natural' nation states? You know all of them are artificial, imposed by people dead long ago, right?
deathkiller
Member
Again, it doesn't say that they were injured by the police but during the police charges. Tripping, having an anxiety attack or a heart attack like in one of the cases qualify.
PD: You could still say that they were injured by the police charges but that still doesn't mean that they were injured directly by the police. Do you think that they stopped to ask everyone how they got injured?
PD2: Reading the report in other languages it seems that only in Catalan they mention the police charges while in other languages they talk about police actions.
veryslowhand
Banned
Main Catalan banks leaving Catalonia, I'm OK with it since my money is in one of them and I was worried.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
It did, though. Catalonia was linked to Castille by personal union only until 1716. They shared a head of state, but there was no institution with the authority to make law in both Castille and Catalunya, much like was the case with England and Scotland until 1707. However, England and Scotland were joined by the Acts of Union, which was a broadly voluntary union (give or take your conception of broadly); the Parliaments of both England and Scotland voted for Union. Catalunya was brutally repressed during the War of Spanish Succession, which in a way was also the War of Spanish Unification, since it turned Spain from a number of kingdoms joined only by a shared monarch into a unitary state. This was not done consensually on behalf of Catalunya, and the Catalan Courts never agreed to this - it was imposed on them by force of arms only.
This is a historical aside, of course, since I don't think the historical status is necessarily important to whether one thinks independence important. Wales was never legally enjoined to England and that doesn't really make much difference to Welsh desires for independence either way. But it simply isn't true that the creation of the Spanish state was peaceable.
gutter_trash
Banned
Spain's problem is similar to the United Kingdom's but the UK has over a century head start when it comes to democratic institutions.
It's a union of Kingdoms where the BIGGER crown is in the driver's seat.
My beef with Spain is its appropriation of the word "Spain" for it is the Roman given name for the Iberian peninsula. After the union of Castile + Aragon, they saw fit to "rebrand" themselves as "Spain" and changing the name of the language "Castilian" to "Spanish" as the defacto language
Theonik
Member
gutter_trash
Banned
your map is dated at the time when the Visigoths controlled "Spain"
I don't get what your cryptic post means, do you want to revert to Visigothic rule? LOL
jakonovski
Member
This thread is kinda interesting in that the right to self determination plays such a small role in how many Europeanss see governments and nations.
As a citizen of a country of 6 million that got its independence from Russia a scant 100 years ago, I'm kinda worried. You fuckers gonna sell me out, aren't you?
As a citizen of a country of 6 million that got its independence from Russia a scant 100 years ago, I'm kinda worried. You fuckers gonna sell me out, aren't you?
Theonik
Member
Think of it as a choose your own adventure book.
If your problem is Russia and your hope is EU, your geopolitics view is so damn wrong if you think that Europe splitting in smaller and smaller pieces would help you with that.
His Majesty
Banned
Don't worry, we'll freeze some Russian bank accounts and write a strongly worded letter to Putin if it comes to that.
jakonovski
Member
I'm thinking that small countries will be fucked no matter which way we go.
ClosingADoor
Member
Finland? How exactly are we going to sell you out.
Russia stands to gain by a fragmented EU. If you are concerned about Russia messing in your country, movements like in Catalonia are not really doing any good for you.
Self determination is also not something every region gets. Let's say part of your country was like "we want to be our own country now!" would you just blindly support that because of self determination. Or would you think: that is nice, but we are stronger when we stay together and should work out our issues.
That is why you want a few strong countries on your side, and not ones that are falling apart so you are left with only small countries.
Yes, the EU reaction of an invasion in its territory will be frozen bank accounts. But of course...
So let's make even more smaller countries instead of a stronger EU, no?
Edit: I think the right to self determination can be as well properly served with a large regional autonomy within one big federation.
The two are not mutually exclusive and it's intellectually dishonest to pretend otherwise.
I dont know if youre being serious or not, but this is way too funny. Its like an exaggerated version of the whole appropriation issue some people have these days on the internet, and if honest, then even funnier.
Anyway, as a Spanish person not trying to get out of Spain just because things arent exactly the way I like (and the government is shitty), good luck to the Catalonians. I dont live in Spain these days but go frequently still. Wont really miss Barcelona, but feel bad for the people who are against this.
Theonik
Member
Sorry restoration of Hellenistic/Roman supremacy only.
Why would you even bother? Just say it is so and Bob's your uncle.
Actually it kind of is. If the future of EU is a common fiscal policy and a EU army (among others), that kind of contradicts at least partially what the supporters of independence are fighting for now. This from a perspective of a region that it's already in EU and Euro zone.
Yeah, but you need to orchestrate a shoddy referendum in order to make your statement have weight.
lastplayed
Member
If Scotland leaves the UK it will still have Queen Elizabeth II as their legitimate monarch though. There's only one crown in that regard.
Theonik
Member
After Scottish independence the next questions would be a) EU membership and b) Abolishing the monarchy for their own head of state.
Jezbollah
Member
Nope. The next question will be which currency it will use.
jakonovski
Member
The Spanish are actively making Catalonia want to leave, and AFAIK stonewalled even the idea of more autonomy negotiations.
There is no strong EU if the people don't accept its legitimacy, and propping up shitheads like Rajoy makes the farce clear for all to see.
Theonik
Member
That's not a constitutional question and the populace is unlikely to be consulted. The decision is also largely made from the first question, but the true answer is tweed.
The Kosovo and Catalonia situations are nowhere nearly the same, at ALL.
But it is certainly an interesting comparison, since the government of Serbia also declared their referendum illegal and against the constitution.
Btw, it seems that Spain is the only Western European country that has not recognized Kosovo. Anyone knows what's the reason for that?
Catalonia, Basque Country...
So they did not want to recognize a country that would set precedent, I see.
So, what would they be doing? I don't trust the Spanish government anymore.
Belongs to Spaniards, they fought for Catalonia, Spanish nation is 1000 years old.... What's happening I thought we were the brainwashed ones .
Does "they fought for Catalonia" mean "they fought to get Catalonia" ? /s
Maybe Brexit got them spooked?
But Brexit was a legal vote. This one wasn't. They should have said something like "look, we aren't going to use force to stop a vote, but it's illegal and won't be recognized." Worst case scenario: Yes wins, Spain says "sure, but the vote was illegal, we already told you". And you would have Puigdemont declaring independence, sure, but you wouldn't have destroyed Spain's international image, pissed of every Catalonian who isn't a fascist, created even more independence supporters, etc.
curi0usBystander
Member
Yesterday I heard one of the founder's of the PP (that left the party when they got the absolute majority back in 2000 due to the way the party when) saying that the spanish government is unable to grasp what's going on and that they used their classic strategy (let's wait and let problems solve themselves out).
So now you can expect anything from a government with no plan and not willing to accept anything other than unconditional surrender.
American in Barcelona here.
This is one of the most complex socieo-cultural events that I've ever seen, and certainly the craziest one I've seen up close. (Date a Catalan girl, went to the protest on Sunday).
Seems like Rajoy is a pretty crap leader. Would have been so easy to sidestep the referendum by just by ignoring it and shooting it down passively, but the police use---even by moving them onto the coast in boats as intimidation is insane.
It appears to me Catalan independence works on two fronts. You have the conservative leadership and Puigdemont wanting larger profits on Catalan's economic contributions to larger Spain, but then you have a more emotional need for Catalan identity from younger folks and the working class. And it's creating this weird tension, because it's easy to portray Puigdemont as a selfish leader pushing an agenda and exploiting an emotional population that's felt ignored by the lack of representation in the central government and just been the target of a terror attack.
So by striking back at Puigdemont you get this harsh effect of suppressing and punishing the larger population.
I think on that end, it's really disturbing to see the hard line rhetoric commonly thrown around here that Catalunya is just filled with racist criminal radicals that demand punishment; this kind of thought is only going to drive a further divide and make Catalans feel like it's them against the world.
All in all, it's crazy to see that geopolitics in Western Europe is being handled with such little care and intricacy. It's some medieval style stuff going on.
This is one of the most complex socieo-cultural events that I've ever seen, and certainly the craziest one I've seen up close. (Date a Catalan girl, went to the protest on Sunday).
Seems like Rajoy is a pretty crap leader. Would have been so easy to sidestep the referendum by just by ignoring it and shooting it down passively, but the police use---even by moving them onto the coast in boats as intimidation is insane.
It appears to me Catalan independence works on two fronts. You have the conservative leadership and Puigdemont wanting larger profits on Catalan's economic contributions to larger Spain, but then you have a more emotional need for Catalan identity from younger folks and the working class. And it's creating this weird tension, because it's easy to portray Puigdemont as a selfish leader pushing an agenda and exploiting an emotional population that's felt ignored by the lack of representation in the central government and just been the target of a terror attack.
So by striking back at Puigdemont you get this harsh effect of suppressing and punishing the larger population.
I think on that end, it's really disturbing to see the hard line rhetoric commonly thrown around here that Catalunya is just filled with racist criminal radicals that demand punishment; this kind of thought is only going to drive a further divide and make Catalans feel like it's them against the world.
All in all, it's crazy to see that geopolitics in Western Europe is being handled with such little care and intricacy. It's some medieval style stuff going on.
I'm down for al-Andalus.
Jack Videogames
Member
YourMaster
Member
Of those people with voting rights, how many voted NO? What, just 5% of the population is happy to stay in Spain and all other people want something else?
See how dumb this is? Only dump or evil people will ever compare the number of people that voted something on whatever election to the total population. You cannot speak for non-voters, ever.
In this particular case though, with the referendum not being binding and to a lesser extent the sabotage by he central government you also cannot take the result on face value.
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