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[deathkiller]

Only dump or evil people will ever compare the number of people that voted something on whatever election to the total population.

Was it dumb or evil that the Scottish devolution referendum of 1979 stipulated that it would be repealed if fewer than 40% of the total electorate voted Yes in the referendum? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_devolution_referendum,_1979

 

[Just_one]

They already have, in a way. Link in Spanish

oh shit...this wont end well

 

[TimmmV]

http://www.vozpopuli.com/economia-y...facilitar-empresas-Cataluna_0_1069394215.html

This does not sound good...

Excellent to see the Spanish government learning nothing from how well their OTT response on the weekend was taken by people

This whole situation is depressing as hell, if the Spanish government keep acting like this then Catalonia wanting to leave will become increasingly justifiable.

It really feels like Europe is falling apart at the moment due to stupid selfish reasons, and its really disheartening

 

[JohnDoe]

Being from Kosovo myself, I really hope the Catalans get what they want.

Just wanted to drop in and say you have an awesome username LOL

 

[deathkiller]

This does not sound good...

Excellent to see the Spanish government learning nothing from how well their OTT response on the weekend was taken by people

This whole situation is depressing as hell, if the Spanish government keep acting like this then Catalonia wanting to leave will become increasingly justifiable.

It really feels like Europe is falling apart at the moment due to stupid selfish reasons, and its really disheartening

Well the law is not literally for those who move out of Catalonia it also allows them to come back just as fast. It really was bad for everyone to have companies that wanted to move but couldn't due to bureaucracy. Banks where being crushed by doubt and if they had fallen it would be far worse for their Catalonian workers that just a mere bureaucratic change that doesn't affect them.

 

[TimmmV]

Well the law is not literally for those who move out of Catalonia it also allows them to come back just as fast. It really was bad for everyone to have companies that wanted to move but couldn't due to bureaucracy. Banks where being crushed by doubt and if they had fallen it would be far worse for their Catalonian workers that just a mere bureaucratic change that doesn't affect them.

Its not really the specifics of the law that bother me - more that the government haven't realised their heavy handed response was a mistake and continue to behave in ways that are/will be perceived as aggressive

This is a delicate situation and PP/Rajoy seem to have all the subtlety of a sledgehammer

 

[YourMaster]

Was it dumb or evil that the Scottish devolution referendum of 1979 stipulated that it would be repealed if fewer than 40% of the total electorate voted Yes in the referendum? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_devolution_referendum,_1979

No, that's different. It is perfectly reasonable to expect a certain number of voters to show up for a referendum to be valid. It is more than reasonable to state the Catalan referendum is invalid. It is never reasonable to state that non-voters are proxy-backers of one of the positions of a referendum.

However, by stating in advance that you require a certain threshold you do introduce problems. Mostly because that very act can influence the people to stay home in the first place.

 

[Kyougar]

Being from Kosovo myself, I really hope the Catalans get what they want.

Not that the situation is even comparable, but you want
- civil war
- bombed cities
- war crimes
- decades of a destabilized region

???

 

[Javier23]

It is never reasonable to state that non-voters are proxy-backers of one of the positions of a referendum.

Yeah, it totally isn't reasonable in the context of the Catalonian referendum that you absolutely don't understand or comprehend. Why come in just to show your ignorance on the topic? This incredibly dumb point has already been made before.

 

[ClosingADoor]

No, that's different. It is perfectly reasonable to expect a certain number of voters to show up for a referendum to be valid. It is more than reasonable to state the Catalan referendum is invalid. It is never reasonable to state that non-voters are proxy-backers of one of the positions of a referendum.

However, by stating in advance that you require a certain threshold you do introduce problems. Mostly because that very act can influence the people to stay home in the first place.

If they stay home because of a threshold, obviously they then disagree with the thing voted about in the referendum, since they want it to fail.

With country changing situations like this, we should county people not showing up as a no vote. It is too much of a change to have people just decide it with a low turnout.

 

[Elfotografoalocado]

ETA can go fuck themselves. They only did harm to the Basque Country from the end of the 1970s and beyond.

 

[Westbahnhof]

Not that the situation is even comparable, but you want
- civil war
- bombed cities
- war crimes
- decades of a destabilized region

???

Yeah, I went to school with a huge amount of Yugoslavian refugee kids here in Austria.
I wouldn't wish something that causes what these families(and the ones that didn't flee) went through on anyone.
Independence wars are terrible, and if there is any peaceful way, it needs to ne prioritized.

 

[YourMaster]

Yeah, it totally isn't reasonable in the context of the Catalonian referendum that you absolutely don't understand or comprehend. Why come in just to show your ignorance on the topic? This incredibly dumb point has already been made before.

No, it totally is not. You are right when you 'just' want to say that the 'yes' people are strongly over-represented in the people who showed up. Therefor it is just as dumb to say '90% of the Catalan population wants independence'.
The fact remains that the people who did not vote include people that wanted to remain, didn't care, wanted to leave, wanted to leave in a different way, wanted to stay for a bit longer, were afraid to go vote, did not have time to vote, whatever.
All you can say is that this referendum was successfully sabotaged. At least 2 million people want to leave, but it unknown exactly how many or how many want the opposite. Anybody saying otherwise is either lying or mistaken.

 

[ClosingADoor]

No, it totally is not. You are right when you 'just' want to say that the 'yes' people are strongly over-represented in the people who showed up. Therefor it is just as dumb to say '90% of the Catalan population wants independence'.
The fact remains that the people who did not vote include people that wanted to remain, didn't care, wanted to leave, wanted to leave in a different way, wanted to stay for a bit longer, were afraid to go vote, did not have time to vote, whatever.
All you can say is that this referendum was successfully sabotaged. At least 2 million people want to leave, but it unknown exactly how many or how many want the opposite. Anybody saying otherwise is either lying or mistaken.

We can't even say for certain 2 million people voted yes considering the circumstances. Might as well be less, take the earlier reports about people voting multiple times and villages having more votes then people in them.

 

[Par Score]

Not that the situation is even comparable, but you want
- civil war
- bombed cities
- war crimes
- decades of a destabilized region

???

You think that's what Catalans want? You think someone who hopes "the Catalans get what they want" wants all of that?

The only way that would happen is by Spain's hand, not by the hand of Catalunya.

 

[DrCheese]

Thank god I'm as far as possible (within Spain) from this mess lol

Our government is retarded. All this crap because of a fucking vote that if allowed would have resulted on a "no".

Pretty much - At least over here we (UK) we allowed the Scottish people to have a say in a fair vote with rules agreed upon by both sides. The UK gov now points to the no vote whenever the SNP raise the idea of a second referendum again & the SNP lost a lot of seats in the last election that's killed it for now. Much more civil.

 

[llien]

Being from Kosovo myself, I really hope the Catalans get what they want.

What do you think about independent serbian "North Kosovo"?

 

[Kyougar]

You think that's what Catalans want? You think someone who hopes "the Catalans get what they want" wants all of that?

The only way that would happen is by Spain's hand, not by the hand of Catalunya.

thats what the poster from kosovo implied he wanted

Edit: and it is the spanish governments fault if they react to an unlawfull secession?

 

[Walshicus]

What do you think about independent serbian "North Kosovo"?

Sounds good. Not sure why it'd be independent rather than joining Serbia though, but whatever the people on the ground actually want.

thats what the poster from kosovo implied he wanted

Edit: and it is the spanish governments fault if they react to an unlawfull secession?

It is 100% the Spanish regime's fault if they respond to peaceful action with violence.

 

[Kyougar]

It is 100% the Spanish regime's fault if they respond to peaceful action with violence.

peacefull decleration of independence? What happens when Spain says no to that declaration? When spain is lawfully declaring that what the local government is doing illegal and comes to arrest them?

 

[Walshicus]

peacefull decleration of independence? What happens when Spain says no to that declaration? When spain is lawfully declaring that what the local government is doing illegal and comes to arrest them?

Lawful according to the Spanish regime's backwards laws perhaps.

But that's the problem. The Spanish regime have a choice to employ violence or not. They have a choice to devalue Human life and to value their grip on the nations they've subsumed over the people within.


It was Human beings who ordered the regime's thugs into polling stations and to beat up peaceful voters last weekend; Humans who made a choice.

 

[Kyougar]

Lawful according to the Spanish regime's backwards laws perhaps.

But that's the problem. The Spanish regime have a choice to employ violence or not. They have a choice to devalue Human life and to value their grip on the nations they've subsumed over the people within.


It was Human beings who ordered the regime's thugs into polling stations and to beat up peaceful voters last weekend; Humans who made a choice.

And the catalans have the choice to NOT secede.

And backwards laws? Nearly all countries have a law or constitution, that the integrity of the state is inviolable.

 

[megateto]

Lawful according to the Spanish regime's backwards laws perhaps.

But that's the problem. The Spanish regime have a choice to employ violence or not. They have a choice to devalue Human life and to value their grip on the nations they've subsumed over the people within.


It was Human beings who ordered the regime's thugs into polling stations and to beat up peaceful voters last weekend; Humans who made a choice.

Regime? PP's handling of the whole situation is very questionable, but to call this government a regime is taking things way too far.

 

[KingSnake]

Lawful according to the Spanish regime's backwards laws perhaps.

But that's the problem. The Spanish regime have a choice to employ violence or not. They have a choice to devalue Human life and to value their grip on the nations they've subsumed over the people within.


It was Human beings who ordered the regime's thugs into polling stations and to beat up peaceful voters last weekend; Humans who made a choice.

Arresting the people who are breaking the law is not employing violence.

Beating people who are protesting peacefully is though and I hope they learnt from that although I kind of doubt.

But if Catalonia goes for UDI then Spain will suspend any autonomy, arrest the Catalan leaders and declare state of emergency. That's pretty clear and within their rights.

If Catalonia then goes for full rebellion that's practically starting a civil war. Only the size of it would be questionable.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Spain apologizes, tone softens in Catalonia independence crisis
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...n-catalonia-independence-crisis-idUSKBN1CB106

Spain’s representative in northeast Catalonia, which accounts for a fifth of the national economy, made the apology just as Catalonia’s secessionist leader appeared to inch away from a plan to declare independence as early as Monday.

“When I see these images, and more so when I know people have been hit, pushed and even one person who was hospitalized, I can’t help but regret it and apologize on behalf of the officers that intervened,” Enric Millo said in a television interview.

I am going to guess there is some talking behind the scenes and Spain and Catalonia are working towards a solution that will have them both saving face.

 

[KingSnake]

Spain apologizes, tone softens in Catalonia independence crisis
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...n-catalonia-independence-crisis-idUSKBN1CB106



I am going to guess there is some talking behind the scenes and Spain and Catalonia are working towards a solution that will have them both saving face.

Good, some deescalation is really needed right now.

 

[megateto]

But if Catalonia goes for UDI then Spain will suspend any autonomy, arrest the Catalan leaders and declare state of emergency. That's pretty clear and within their rights.

And the EU has already blessed Rajoy's government in doing so. He feels supported by the international community and I really believe he's going full on against Catalonia's government.

 

[forknknife]

Spain apologizes, tone softens in Catalonia independence crisis
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...n-catalonia-independence-crisis-idUSKBN1CB106



I am going to guess there is some talking behind the scenes and Spain and Catalonia are working towards a solution that will have them both saving face.

Many people disregarding this apology but to me it is very very welcome and hopefully significant of a true change of tone and will to dialogue.

So many companies already leaving Catalonia to other parts of Spain today, too, by the way. The independists are going to start feeling some serious pressure to keep themselves together.

 

[Ferr986]

Spain apologizes, tone softens in Catalonia independence crisis
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...n-catalonia-independence-crisis-idUSKBN1CB106



I am going to guess there is some talking behind the scenes and Spain and Catalonia are working towards a solution that will have them both saving face.

If only that came from someone higher in Spanish gov like Rajoy or Santamaria... I dont think theres much talking, Rajoy said the same as always yesterday in an interview, and Romeva from Catalonian gov just said they will still reunite the Parliament on Monday.

Only thing that seems to calm down things a little (in the Catalonian side) are companies leaving. Right now Gas Natural has announced they're leaving too.

 

[Nivash]

If the Catalan government unilaterally declare independence, they put themselves and the region in open revolt against the Spanish government. It's lunacy to think that Madrid can just ignore that. They have a responsibility to protect and defend Spain; meekly giving up a massive portion of the country on the back of a flawed referendum is essentially admitting that Spain, as a nation, is a failed state. It can't and won't happen.

Secession is illegal according to Spanish law. Madrid will order the police to arrest the Catalan officials for this - and they have every right to do so. If Catalan orders the Mossos to interfere and trigger a violent conflict they - and only they - are responsible. They are no better than the warlords of Donetsk and Luhansk in that case and should be treated the same. If you ask me, Spain would even be in the right to activate NATO article 5 and request military support in that case, just as Poland or the Baltic states could do against the type of "green men" that showed up in Crimea before the Russian invasion.

The violence committed by the Guardia Civil against the passive resistance of the Catalan protesters was indefensible. Those responsible should face charges. But if Catalan does revolt, their leaders are responsible for a far worse crime.

Spain apologizes, tone softens in Catalonia independence crisis
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...n-catalonia-independence-crisis-idUSKBN1CB106



I am going to guess there is some talking behind the scenes and Spain and Catalonia are working towards a solution that will have them both saving face.

That said, Spain isn't a failed state. I expect this to be resolved peacefully. But I stand by my above post - unilateral secession is by no means a "peaceful" process, and people need to dispense with that illusion.

 

[marcbret87]

If the Catalan government unilaterally declare independence, they put themselves and the region in open revolt against the Spanish government. It's lunacy to think that Madrid can just ignore that. They have a responsibility to protect and defend Spain; meekly giving up a massive portion of the country on the back of a flawed referendum is essentially admitting that Spain, as a nation, is a failed state. It can't and won't happen.

Secession is illegal according to Spanish law. Madrid will order the police to arrest the Catalan officials for this - and they have every right to do so. If Catalan orders the Mossos to interfere and trigger a violent conflict they - and only they - are responsible. They are no better than the warlords of Donetsk and Luhansk in that case and should be treated the same. If you ask me, Spain would even be in the right to activate NATO article 5 and request military support in that case, just as Poland or the Baltic states could do against the type of "green men" that showed up in Crimea before the Russian invasion.

The violence committed by the Guardia Civil against the passive resistance of the Catalan protesters was indefensible. Those responsible should face charges. But if Catalan does revolt, their leaders are responsible for a far worse crime.



That said, Spain isn't a failed state. I expect this to be resolved peacefully. But I stand by my above post - unilateral secession is by no means a "peaceful" process, and people need to dispense with that illusion.

Tell that to some Catalans, who complain it's undemocratic to not let them secede unilaterally.

Honestly, calling NATO assistance is overdoing it. Despite everything, I doubt the people of Catalonia is willing to escalate the conflict to such levels. The national police should be enough to control the situation. However, in the meantime, big business is moving their headquarters out of Catalonia.

 

[ClosingADoor]

If only that came from someone higher in Spanish gov like Rajoy or Santamaria... I dont think theres much talking, Rajoy said the same as always yesterday in an interview, and Romeva from Catalonian gov just said they will still reunite the Parliament on Monday.

Only thing that seems to calm down things a little (in the Catalonian side) are companies leaving. Right now Gas Natural has announced they're leaving too.

Sure, but those higher ups might feel they are stuck in their position now, so something needs to be worked out so they can both look like they "won" to their voters. Or maybe I watched too much politics on tv lately.

 

[KingSnake]

However, in the meantime, big business is moving their headquarters out of Catalonia.

It will be interesting to see the future regional GDP after this "all in" from the Catalan government.

 

[gutter_trash]

It will be interesting to see the future regional GDP after this "all in" from the Catalan government.

just like in 1977-1980 when lots of banks and insurance head offices moved out of Montreal for Toronto. Prior to 1980, Montreal was Canada's largest city.

Quebec Separatist shenanigans have made Toronto #1 in Canada

 

[Ferr986]

Former Catalan leader Artur Mas says region not ready for ‘real independence'

http://www.eldiario.es/politica/Artur-dice-Cataluna-lista-independencia_0_694331374.html

And this is the guy that probably started it all...

Sure, but those higher ups might feel they are stuck in their position now, so something needs to be worked out so they can both look like they "won" to their voters. Or maybe I watched too much politics on tv lately.

I hope so, it's just that doing nothing is basically Rajoy's style since he's been President.

 

[tolkir]

Bitcoin?

Speaking of bticoin, it would be interesting to know which currency Catalonia would have with a hypothetical independence.

 

[cebri.one]

Is really incredible that the Catalan nationalist are now somehow the victims in this situation. When they have been indoctrinating children for decades, using the public TV to indoctrinate the whole population, preparing for this moment.

And even with their control and oppression, they only managed to get 48.5% of the votes in the last election.

 

[Nivash]

Tell that to some Catalans, who complain it's undemocratic to not let them secede unilaterally.

Honestly, calling NATO assistance is overdoing it. Despite everything, I doubt the people of Catalonia is willing to escalate the conflict to such levels. The national police should be enough to control the situation. However, in the meantime, big business is moving their headquarters out of Catalonia.

Absolutely, I don't expect Madrid to go beyond sending in the Guardia Civil again. But what if, like I mentioned above, the Catalan actually do mobilise the Mossos to resist? They are 17,000 strong. The Catalan government has floated the idea of turning them into the Catalan military in a post-independence situation. They're a sizable paramilitary force as it is and beyond any civilian police force to be able to control.

Again, we're talking about the absolute worst case scenario here. But I want to stress just how serious this situation is. Unilateral declarations of independence are revolts. Catalan knows this. Maybe they really are just playing brinksmanship and bluffing in a way they can't back up, but I wouldn't put it beyond them to have contingencies in place in case things escalate out of control.

 

[cebri.one]

Of those people with voting rights, how many voted NO? What, just 5% of the population is happy to stay in Spain and all other people want something else?

See how dumb this is? Only dump or evil people will ever compare the number of people that voted something on whatever election to the total population. You cannot speak for non-voters, ever.
In this particular case though, with the referendum not being binding and to a lesser extent the sabotage by he central government you also cannot take the result on face value.

We can speak for them because we know the results of the last regional elections. Unless you want to infer that Ciudadanos, PP and PSC voters have become pro independence during the last 2 years.

 

[cebri.one]

Absolutely, I don't expect Madrid to go beyond sending in the Guardia Civil again. But what if, like I mentioned above, the Catalan actually do mobilise the Mossos to resist? They are 17,000 strong. The Catalan government has floated the idea of turning them into the Catalan military in a post-independence situation. They're a sizable paramilitary force as it is and beyond any civilian police force to be able to control.

Again, we're talking about the absolute worst case scenario here. But I want to stress just how serious this situation is. Unilateral declarations of independence are revolts. Catalan knows this. Maybe they really are just playing brinksmanship and bluffing in a way they can't back up, but I wouldn't put it beyond them to have contingencies in place in case things escalate out of control.

Tired of the use of the word Catalan. They are Catalan nationalist, just the half of Catalunya is represented there.

 

[YourMaster]

We can speak for them because we know the results of the last regional elections. Unless you want to infer that Ciudadanos, PP and PSC voters have become pro independence during the last 2 years.

You're saying people voting for a party are always in full agreement with each and every policy of said party?
People stating that 90% of the total Catalan population want independence (based on this referendum) are assholes distorting the results, and people stating that everybody minus 90% of 40% of the total Catalan population want to remain as is(based on this referendum) are assholes distorting the results.

You can only have a real referendum when you all agree on the rules before hand and both the Yes and No vote have clear meaning beforehand.

 

[deathkiller]

You're saying people voting for a party are always in full agreement with each and every policy of said party?

If you had lived the last regional elections you would understand why we can infer support for independence from them. The unilateral declaration of independence was literally an electoral promise.

 

[Nivash]

Tired of the use of the word Catalan. They are Catalan nationalist, just the half of Catalunya is represented there.

I'm using it as shorthand for the Catalan government, sorry if that wasn't clear. I see now that I forgot to add government to the first Catalan in that post.

I know that half or more of Catalunya wants no part of this. The problem is that this isn't necessarily enough - the US War of Independence was only fought with active support from 1/3 of Americans, after all. There are more than enough nationalists to support a violent confrontation.

 

[Oriel]

Madrid: "Hey Catalonia, we love you guys so much we're making it easier for businesses to leave your region."

Reminds me of all that "Better Together" bollox during the Scottish Indy Ref campaign.

 

[Oriel]

Speaking of bticoin, it would be interesting to know which currency Catalonia would have with a hypothetical independence.

The Euro.

 

[tuxfool]

Madrid: "Hey Catalonia, we love you guys so much we're making it easier for businesses to leave your region."

Reminds me of all that "Better Together" bollox during the Scottish Indy Ref campaign.

You're whining that Madrid isn't making it easy for Catalunya to secede, but also whining that they're making it easy for companies that don't want to deal with the uncertainty to leave?

 

[Oriel]

You're whining ....

Yeah sure bud.

 

[tuxfool]

Yeah sure bud.

Next up, you're going to ask the British government to hold companies hostage during Brexit?

 

[Deleted member 231381]

If Catalan orders the Mossos to interfere and trigger a violent conflict they - and only they - are responsible. They are no better than the warlords of Donetsk and Luhansk in that case and should be treated the same.

This is complete nonsense. The Spanish state has outright refused for a legal referendum to be held. This is a denial of democracy. The Catalan regional government has attempted the best possible democratic means of consulting the Catalan people it can. At the moment, the Catalan regional government is the one with the moral and democratic legitimacy to act. If Spain continues to refuse to allow for a legal referendum, then unilateral secession is fully justified. If this were not the case, and if it were true that as long as Spain refuses to hold a legal referendum, Catalunya cannot have independence, then you are denying the right of the Catalan people to self-determine.

If Spain refuses to hold a referendum, Catalunya declares unilateral secession, and Spain sends in troops, I would personally do everything in my power to go to Catalunya to do what I could to assist in their favour. States are products of and derive their power from their people; they govern by the assent of the governed. The party at fault here is the Spanish state for not simply allowing a referendum that in all probability they would have won, and handily. It's not enough I get to praise my country's politics (either of them), but on this rare occasion the Scottish example is a clear paradigm for what ought to be done.

 

[tuxfool]

This is complete nonsense. The Spanish state has outright refused for a legal referendum to be held. This is a denial of democracy. The Catalan regional government has attempted the best possible democratic means of consulting the Catalan people it can. At the moment, the Catalan regional government is the one with the moral and democratic legitimacy to act. If Spain continues to refuse to allow for a legal referendum, then unilateral secession is fully justified. If this were not the case, and that as long as Spain refuses to allow a legal referendum, Catalunya cannot have independence, then you are denying the right of the Catalan people to self-determine.

If Spain refuses to hold a referendum, Catalunya declares unilateral secession, and Spain sends in troops, I would personally do everything in my power to go to Catalunya to do what I could to assist in their favour. States are products of and derive their power from their people; they govern by the assent of the governed. The party at fault here is the Spanish state for not simply allowing a referendum that in all probability they would have won, and handily. It's not enough I get to praise my country's politics (either of them), but on this rare occasion the Scottish example is a clear paradigm for what ought to be done.

What about the people in Catalunya that don't want independence? By most accounts it is fairly evenly split.