That would be pretty ironic "I'm proud of my heritage and I want to be independent, but I will rather use my Spanish passport because I don't want to bare the consequences of my vote"
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Catalonia to split from Spain within 48 hours of secession vote
- Thread starter LordOfLore
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That would be pretty ironic "I'm proud of my heritage and I want to be independent, but I will rather use my Spanish passport because I don't want to bare the consequences of my vote"
QuicheFontaine
Member
Eh? Sure they can. If you're a dual citizen of an EU country and a non-EU country, the EU country can strip you of your national citizenship, leaving you with only the non-EU country citizenship.
EU citizenship is attached to national citizenship. It's not some extra citizenship existing independently.
Camaway2
Member
An independent Calalunia will not be part of the EU, its citizens won't have a European passport and won't be enjoying the rights of a EU citizens. Brussels has been super clear on this.
Those who favour independence are telling themselves a lie just because they know that reality would sink their chances of winning a theoretical vote.
Nobody in the EU wants a nation state splitting up by a centrifugal force for fear of the potential repercussions in their own country.
I appreciate the fact that the Catalans don't like it, but it doesn't change the reality.
Those who favour independence are telling themselves a lie just because they know that reality would sink their chances of winning a theoretical vote.
Nobody in the EU wants a nation state splitting up by a centrifugal force for fear of the potential repercussions in their own country.
I appreciate the fact that the Catalans don't like it, but it doesn't change the reality.
intheinbetween
Member
There is a way, not the easiest one, but there is.
There are no excuses to justify the acts the catalonian government is promoting, doing what they want, disobeying orders from the central government, disrespecting the minority of the parties in the catalonian parlament, deciding what to do, when to do it and at the same time they are trying to make it look like the central government is the one being anti-democratic because it doesn't allow an ilegal referendum?
Too much hipocrisy.
Westbahnhof
Banned
Thought so too, but I think someone said that Spain actually can't do that.
Why France or Germany? There are no real independence movements in either country. Better to just look at the UK. And don't answer with "Well, that referendum wasn't unilaterally declared" -- this one wouldn't have been either, if Spain acted like the UK. Also, if France and Germany acted the same way if, say, Bavaria or Brittany wanted to split, it wouldn't make these actions any better.
If you don't want to call a de facto suspension of a democratically elected government, detention of politicians of said government without charges and intrusion of postal privacy "fascist", okay. But it's not quite the epitome of a democratic process, either.
Camaway2
Member
Sure you can. If you choose to obtain the passport of a non EU country and your previous country does not allow double nationality, you are no longer a EU citizen.
Wafflecakes
Member
Those people are assuming that Spain gives more of a shit about following their constitution than Catalonia does.
intheinbetween
Member
No one can tell you what would happen for sure as all of this is based on a hypothetical situation.
First, I don't think Spain would recognize Catalonia as a nation, then if by any change Catalonia gets away with this and gets its independence, I really doubt it would have been in good terms, so I can see Spain not reaching a dual-citizenship agreement with Catalonia, as the relationship would be completely broken.
marcbret87
Member
I am a Catalan myself, and I don't think having your own country is a right. The referendums organised in Scotland and Quebec had the blessing of the central government. If they want to just push through at the very least they need to have a large support of the population, and what they have is 48% of the vote in the last election. This is significant, but not enough to enforce independence as a established fact on the ground.
Westbahnhof
Banned
Yeah.. Long story short, it'll be a mess no matter what.
I remember sitting in primary school with 10/25 kids being Yugoslavian refugees.
No matter what, I hope this can be avoided. They were good friends, but they weren't here by choice, and their families weren't well-off.
This just feels dangerous.
I remember sitting in primary school with 10/25 kids being Yugoslavian refugees.
No matter what, I hope this can be avoided. They were good friends, but they weren't here by choice, and their families weren't well-off.
If they had a legal referendum like Scotland, I could see myself supporting them.
This just feels dangerous.
Theonik
Member
That's a really silly argument because Spain is not such a country. Germany notably doesn't allow dual citizenship neither does Austria but they have rules to do that in exceptional circumstances.
There is no EU rule, this is strictly a national matter. Spain would have to change their entirely legal system and constitution to spite Catalonia in that case. And yes if these people are dual citizens Spain can choose to revoke their Spanish citizenship but I don't think there is any legal framework for this or this might be something Spain might want to do.
It is perfectly reasonable to see how the issue of retaining citizenship or individual circumstances might have a desire for more self-determination in Catalonia while also wishing to retain rights in the Kingdom of Spain. People living near the border might find that appealing for instance.
marcbret87
Member
The point is there is no country that includes a right to secede in their constitution. The central government doesn't have to allow a referendum if it doesn't want to.
And to say that the government officials have been arrested without charges is bullshit. Organising the referendum is clearly overstepping their competencies, hence spending public money on it is illegal. That is the problem here. This not repression.
Problem is at this rate PP may make this a posibility, even though I wouldn't want to...
We are talking here about Spain. Who is acting now tough internally against this. Who was ready to deny Scotland any chance of getting in EU just to teach Catalonia a lesson. Changing their legislation to impose restriction against double citizenship is exactly the kind of thing that I see the current Spanish government capable of doing judging by all their actions.
Charles Brandon
Member
You do have a right to self-determination and the only way to establish what the will of the Catalan people is, is to ask them. However, I am not sure if you have a right to a plebiscite, just the right to have the plebiscite upheld, if it takes place and is legitimate. It is pointless to deny the plebiscite though because then you get situations like this developing.
QuicheFontaine
Member
Well I can't speak for Spain particularly. I'm just responding to the claim that it's not possible to strip a European of their EU citizenship. From a one second google you can at least find this example of it happening in the UK, and the ECHR ruling that it was lawful.
Theonik
Member
I mean yes. I kinda contemplated that for this reason but I can't really say. It would be really irrational to do that kind of wishing for their government to implode kind of bad.
But this doesn't stop things from happening.
The Catalan autonomous government has been trying to get a legal plebiscite but have been denied their right to self determination. This isn't a legal referendum as such and it is unlikely that Spain recognises it after the fact.
intheinbetween
Member
Do I? source?
marcbret87
Member
That is what I have been hearing since all this started, that their actions are creating more pro-independence people every day. Do the math: in 2012 you had CiU with 50 MPs, ERC with 21 and CUP with 3 and a total share of the vote of 47%. In the 2015 elections you had JxSi (ERC+CiU) with 62 MPs and CUP with 10 and a 48% share of the vote. It does not seem to me that their share of the vote is increasing significantly.
In something like 10-15 years I could see that changing, because younger people seem more pro-independence than their elders, but I don't think short term things are changing that much.
marcbret87
Member
Right, because any country would surely allow to suddenly have 7 million of their citizens in a neighbouring country who can participate in their elections, use their healthcare system and somehow don't pay any taxes at all.
gutter_trash
Banned
any talk of legislation against double citizenship would be highly unpopular, esepecillay for Spanish citizens and children of Spanish citizens living abroad.
hell, my friend was born in Montreal and was granted Spanish citizenship because his parents are Spaniards. They love their double citizneship.
His parents are reitred in their 80s and live 6 months in Montreal, 6 months in Madrid every year.
you would see an uptick of oversees citizens excerize their vote to topple the goverment
hell, my friend was born in Montreal and was granted Spanish citizenship because his parents are Spaniards. They love their double citizneship.
His parents are reitred in their 80s and live 6 months in Montreal, 6 months in Madrid every year.
you would see an uptick of oversees citizens excerize their vote to topple the goverment
International law and its right of self-determination, I suppose. It's one of the basic international laws.
But it's always been applied very selectively, which is also due to the fact that it's really hard to define what a people is and what matches their right of self-determination.
intheinbetween
Member
Is the Unrepresented Nations and Peoples Organization trustworthy enough to back the self-determination for any country?
I am honestly asking as I have never heard of it.
Exactly, it's very selective, and afaik Catalonia doesn't fit in any of the situations.
Psyrgery ES
Member
Nobody is forbiding you to speak your mother language anymore, that happened about 40 years ago during Franco's dictatorship.
In fact in Catalonia you can be fined if you don't use catalan in your business.
Using only spanish in your business? Here, have a fine.
So please, stop spreading that bullshit.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Today they made a lot more: like me, I was gonna vote No, now I'm voting YES.
Charles Brandon
Member
I think there is a difference between retaining EU citizenship and Catalonia remaining part of the EU. I am not sure whether or not is will be possible for Catalonians to retain the EU citizenship via Spain, as many British citizens will via Ireland but even if it is possible, that does mean that Catalonia, the state will be in the EU and party to the single market and schengen and all the rest of it.
Doesn't Spain have a health card? That should cover the issue of the healthcare system. Elections, that's a more sensitive topic, indeed. But citizens living abroad have the same voting rights, I don't see why should Spanish citizens living in Catalonia being denied that.
ioriyagami
Member
You don't need to end double-citizenship to strip Catalonian citizens from their previous Spanish citizenship. Expecting anything else is delusional and hypocritical.
gutter_trash
Banned
France actually crushed linguistic minoritites after the French Revolutin, up to the early 20th Century.
Before the French Revolution, minoritiy languages florished like Occitan and Breton ect
nearly 2 centuries of crushing cultural and linguistic minorities eventually diminished their influance and standing. and "assimilated" them overtime.
So Spain is actually more lineant, more respectfull towards their linguistic minorities than France.
France still does not recognize Occitan and Breton as languages..
Catalonians are protective of their culture for many reasons, and they have seen what France has done to their Occitan cousins
Charles Brandon
Member
Decide for yourself but the short answer is that this principle is enshrined in international law and applies to all people on earth. We know all about it in the UK, partly because of the Scottish thing but mainly because it's part of our defence of our rights over the Falkland Islands i.e. that the islanders have determined that they wish to be part of Britain and their wishes must be respected.
marcbret87
Member
Of course you are
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Today is a turning point, it will be in 1 year or 20, but neo-fascist PP just made Catalonia independant a reality.
Personally I don't want to belong to a country ruled by ppl like that.
That's completly false.
You can talk whatever language that you want, they fined because these business asked for money to put the posters in catalan. That business didn't do it so they where fined.
I'm happy because a lot of spaniards aren't democratic and they are showing it now, I hope all the europeans will be aware of that and force a legal referendum.
Westbahnhof
Banned
Are you not worried about a situation similar to the Croatian War of Independence?
I mean, you can just vote them out of power. Become political. One year or twenty, they'll be gone.
Charles Brandon
Member
Is there a good reason why the Basque people are not tailcoating in on this? I thought there were much more vocal in their desire for independence than the Catalans.
They have financial autonomy and actually could approve the PP budget this year, so they have a lot of power to demand anything. Even that there's a part of the basque society that for sure will start a process like the catalan and maybe they will do it in the next years.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Basques have a privileged fiscal situation and the biggest nationalist basque.party in center-right and are happy being favoured by PP since they need thier votes to approve PP estate budget.
I thought the turning point was September 7th. Now is today.
Each new day is a turning point for you people.
intheinbetween
Member
Are you for real?
I mean, catalonian politics are the ones infringing the law, the central government is just doing their part by applying the measures that correspond to the felonies they are commiting.
Charles Brandon
Member
Theonik
Member
Less because of that, more because central governments don't like separatist movements generally and prefer to suppress them where possible. The right to self-determination is generally used to defend annexations or to defend against such.
There isn't really much presiding over international law anyway besides different sovereign states that can choose to take what stance they like and do so for diplomatic reasons. I can't see anyone siding against Spain for example even if Catalans voted to leave.
Can't see why the later is not an option. This is complicated.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
So, it isn't turning point of Catalonia. It would be 'your' turning point.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
I'm hearing the radio here, thousands of ppl just got out to the streets. I saw the opinion of other ppl,outside of Catalonia saying the same.
This is big.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
It's simply not true that Catalan citizens would remain EU citizens simply because they once were EU citizens. Article 20 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union quite clearly states:
If you don't hold the nationality of a Member State, you're not a citizen of the European Union.
The reason it has a part saying that no authority may strip you of your European citizenship is to prevent member states (or European Union bodies) from doing anything that could decouple this - for example, suppose that Hungary decided to strip the European citizenship of all non-Fidesz voters, so that only Fidesz voters could vote in Hungarian EU elections. If member states of the European Union could strip their citizens of European Union citizenship while remaining in the European Union, the European Union doesn't offer any protection at all - want to appeal to the European courts? Oh, tough luck, we just revoked your EU citizenship. So that was explicitly barred.
It does not to say that you can never lose EU citizenship. You can, since EU citizenship is inherently coupled with citizenship of Member States, and the citizenship procedures of Member States are a matter of reserved competence - that is, Member States decide them, not the EU.
If Spain revoked Spanish nationality for those accepting Catalan nationality, then those Catalan nationals would not be EU citizens.
If you don't hold the nationality of a Member State, you're not a citizen of the European Union.
The reason it has a part saying that no authority may strip you of your European citizenship is to prevent member states (or European Union bodies) from doing anything that could decouple this - for example, suppose that Hungary decided to strip the European citizenship of all non-Fidesz voters, so that only Fidesz voters could vote in Hungarian EU elections. If member states of the European Union could strip their citizens of European Union citizenship while remaining in the European Union, the European Union doesn't offer any protection at all - want to appeal to the European courts? Oh, tough luck, we just revoked your EU citizenship. So that was explicitly barred.
It does not to say that you can never lose EU citizenship. You can, since EU citizenship is inherently coupled with citizenship of Member States, and the citizenship procedures of Member States are a matter of reserved competence - that is, Member States decide them, not the EU.
If Spain revoked Spanish nationality for those accepting Catalan nationality, then those Catalan nationals would not be EU citizens.
marcbret87
Member
As much as I don't like them, the PP is not neo-fascist. Their actions on this issue is to be pretty lenient on an autonomy that has long been in ignoring its competencies and trying to act as an independent state when they are not. I don't like them, but I am sorry, saying you want to leave because of a political party is absolute bullshit. Then, when a party that you don't like wins an electing in an independent Catalonia, what are you gonna do? Ask for the independence of your neighbourhood?
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