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[Relaxed Muscle]

As much as I don't like them, the PP is not neo-fascist. Their actions on this issue is to be pretty lenient on an autonomy that has long been in ignoring its competencies and trying to act as an independent state when they are not. I don't like them, but I am sorry, saying you want to leave because of a political party is absolute bullshit. Then, when a party that you don't like wins an electing in an independent Catalonia, what are you gonna do? Ask for the independence of your neighbourhood?

I doubt a neo-fascist party will win in Catalonia ever.

 

[Sir Abacus]

Why France or Germany? There are no real independence movements in either country.

You go to Corsica and tell people they're a rightful part of France and if you come back I'll concede your point.

 

[marcbret87]

Are you not worried about a situation similar to the Croatian War of Independence?

I doubt it. I don't think people in Catalonia is willing to go to such length to achieve independence because the situation is really not that desperate. Besides, it's not like people have weapons at home, so the situation can't really escalate so easily.

 

[Tiamant]

Spanish government has really shot themselves in the foot. I've been all morning reading people that were doubtful about their vote but now they are in a clear YES position.

You need to be a special kind of incompetent to fuck up this bad. Basically the perception is that the YES vote has switched from pro-independence to anti-fascist.

Edit: as we speak, spontaneous rallies are happening across the country to reject the actions of the Guardia Civil done today. The Ramblas are starting to get very crowded, and so is Plaça Sant Jaume and Passeig de Gràcia.

 

[ioriyagami]

This is in another league.

And I was never one of those "people".

In my opinion your reaction is exactly what the Catalonian government was looking for all along: solidify the independentist sentiment within Catalonia, widen the breach between Catalonia and the rest of the Spain.

I mean, I don't think they could get away with an unilateral referendum without support from the UE, Spain or even part of the Catalonian parlament, but this will make pro-independence political parties stronger in Catalonia and the resistance from the central government weaker.

Now, if I only understood why in the world they would want to leave Spain when they can achieve most of the benefits of full independence within their autonomic community if they played their cards right...

 

[marcbret87]

You go to Corsica and tell people they're a rightful part of France and if you come back I'll concede your point.

Pretty much. The reason why you don't hear about things like that in France is because they are shut down and not really given any chance to do anything about it. Catalonia has its own set of laws and institutions, its own parliament and its own elections.

 

[marcbret87]

Spanish government has really shot themselves in the foot. I've been all morning reading people that were doubtful about their vote but now they are in a clear YES position.

You need to be a special kind of incompetent to fuck up this bad. Basically the perception is that the YES vote has switched from pro-independence to anti-fascist.

Your perception. Other people simply see a central government doing their job, and for many it's something they should have done already some time ago.

 

[intheinbetween]

Spanish government has really shot themselves in the foot. I've been all morning reading people that were doubtful about their vote but now they are in a clear YES position.

You need to be a special kind of incompetent to fuck up this bad. Basically the perception is that the YES vote has switched from pro-independence to anti-fascist.

I still don't understand the YES or NO vote argument, because there won't be any valid referendum or voting event, it's not legal, no institution or country will support this, this is only meant to get more votes for the anticipated elections in Catalonia, and for the national ones to some extent.

We are all being fooled by politicians on both sides, and what saddens me is the fact that we, the spanish citizens, will be the ones suffering the consequences.

 

[Tiamant]

Your perception. Other people simply see a central government doing their job, and for many it's something they should have done already some time ago.

The Central government circumventing the decision of the TSJC via a friend judge?

For many the article 155 should have been applied long ago, so what is your point here?

I'm not speaking about my perception, I'm just telling what I'm seeing trending on twitter right now and on the rallies.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Now, if I only understood why in the world they would want to leave Spain when they can achieve most of the benefits of full independence within their autonomic community if they played their cards right...

We tried, they didn't let us.

 

[Theonik]

A bit distinction is that France is a purely unitary state and did its share of ethnic cleansing on its local minorities centuries ago. Spain on the other hand is a unitary state which acts closer to a federation in many ways.

 

[Wafflecakes]

We tried, they didn't let us.

Maybe you missed the "if they played their cards right" part?

 

[Onyar]

Your perception. Other people simply see a central government doing their job, and for many it's something they should have done already some time ago.

They don't just do their job, a lot of the arrests are actually ILEGAL for the same spanish constitution, because they didn't approve the 155.

Spanish must be sanctioned by the European Union right now.

 

[tolkir]

I'm hearing the radio here, thousands of ppl just got out to the streets. I saw the opinion of other ppl,outside of Catalonia saying the same.


This is big.

Ok, but this was going to happen latter or earlier. The government have mentioned it several times.
I don't know what expected those 'new separatists'.

 

[intheinbetween]

Pretty much. The reason why you don't hear about things like that in France is because they are shut down and not really given any chance to do anything about it. Catalonia has its own set of laws and institutions, its own parliament and its own elections.

Exactly, Catalonia has asked many things and the central government allowed them. They have their own police department, their own parlament, their own education system, their own healthcare, their taxes recollection, a big public tv service, they manage their own prisons, among other things..

The central government has granted them many things they asked, but they want more and more, but specially the same (though I believe even better..) financial situation the Basque Country has.

It's all about the money.

 

[His Majesty]

Your perception. Other people simply see a central government doing their job, and for many it's something they should have done already some time ago.

As an outsider my perception is that state police are rounding up politicians for wanting to organize a referendum.

It's not so hard to guess who people will sympathize with more.

 

[Ferr986]

Exactly, Catalonia has asked many things and the central government allowed them. They have their own police department, their own parlament, their own education system, their own healthcare, their taxes recollection, a big public tv service, they manage their own prisons, among other things..

The central government has granted them many things they asked, but they want more and more, but specially the same (though I believe even better..) financial situation the Basque Country has.

It's all about the money.

The Estatut though. They fucked it badly with it. Hell, PP wanted a referendum to block it (how ironic).

The Central government circumventing the decision of the TSJC via a friend judge?

This is an interesting point that we'll see how it ends. Seems like what happened today was a little fishy. And how "surprising" comes back from a very old complaint from VOX.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

A bit distinction is that France is a purely unitary state and did its share of ethnic cleansing on its local minorities centuries ago. Spain on the other hand is a unitary state which acts closer to a federation in many ways.

Brittany will be free once again, my friends.

Evit Breizh!

Also, Breton is like Welsh but you say it like you're French. It's fun!

 

[intheinbetween]

Spanish must be sanctioned by the European Union right now.

WTF? Why?

I'm sorry but I believe the EU is on Spain's side, plus I have the feeling the central government has been informing the EU about all of this.

 

[marcbret87]

The Central government circumventing the decision of the TSJC via a friend judge?

For many the article 155 should have been applied long ago, so what is your point here?

I'm not speaking about my perception, I'm just telling what I'm seeing trending on twitter right now and on the rallies.

Again, the Catalan government is is arresting people because they are spending public money on an illegal referendum.

 

[deathkiller]

Spanish government has really shot themselves in the foot. I've been all morning reading people that were doubtful about their vote but now they are in a clear YES position.

You need to be a special kind of incompetent to fuck up this bad. Basically the perception is that the YES vote has switched from pro-independence to anti-fascist.

Edit: as we speak, spontaneous rallies are happening across the country to reject the actions of the Guardia Civil done today. The Ramblas are starting to get very crowded, and so is Plaça Sant Jaume and Passeig de Gràcia.

Well, this was always the real point of the vote. They knew that they would get more support once the Spanish government took actions against them, the question is if they will get enough numbers to declare the independence. The way I see it is hard for it to be a clear call so the pro-independence will have to decide if they want to take the risk and begin blocking those who support Spain.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Maybe you missed the "if they played their cards right" part?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Autonomy_of_Catalonia

 

[intheinbetween]

As an outsider my perception is that state police are rounding up politicians for wanting to organize a referendum.

It's not so hard to guess who people will sympathize with more.

No, state police are rounding up politicians because of sedition, and specially because of infringing laws and disobeying orders from the central goverment, these politicians are acting on their own, disobeying the central government.

 

[Westbahnhof]

They don't just do their job, a lot of the arrests are actually ILEGAL for the same spanish constitution, because they didn't approve the 155.

Spanish must be sanctioned by the European Union right now.

Why sanctions? What?

 

[Theonik]

Brittany will be free once again, my friends.

Evit Breizh!

But I thought they were leaving the EU?!

Why sanctions? What?

One could argue, that Spain's actions are in violation of Title 2 of the Lisbon Treaty but one would also need to then accept the Catalan right to self-determination and no sane state would ever accept popular rule as a thing that is permitted.

 

[Irminsul]

The point is there is no country that includes a right to secede in their constitution. The central government doesn't have to allow a referendum if it doesn't want to.

And to say that the government officials have been arrested without charges is bullshit. Organising the referendum is clearly overstepping their competencies, hence spending public money on it is illegal. That is the problem here. This not repression.

Sure, they don't have to, but my argument wasn't about whether they have to, but rather whether it's simply the better option. That argument is independent (hah!) of whether you agree with the independence movement. I personally really don't know what's better; on the one hand, I'm a proponent of a Europe of regions, meaning I'm somewhat sympathetic with independence. On the other hand, I still want a united Europe of regions, and I'm not sure a balkanization is the right way to get to that goal.

Anyway, the reactions to Spain's action alone show that what they did probably wasn't the best option.

France actually crushed linguistic minoritites after the French Revolutin, up to the early 20th Century.

You go to Corsica and tell people they're a rightful part of France and if you come back I'll concede your point.

What I meant is an independence movement this strong and, well, ready to act. I totally agree that Spain is at least more lenient than France, but that also means France doesn't have to deal with an independence movement that strong.

One could argue that therefore, more repression is better to prevent ugly scenes like in Catalonia right now, but I really don't agree with that.

So yeah, point taken, France is "just" better at repressing independence movements, which isn't really a point I wanted to support.

Less because of that, more because central governments don't like separatist movements generally and prefer to suppress them where possible. The right to self-determination is generally used to defend annexations or to defend against such.

There isn't really much presiding over international law anyway besides different sovereign states that can choose to take what stance they like and do so for diplomatic reasons. I can't see anyone siding against Spain for example even if Catalans voted to leave.

Sure, that too, but I don't think that's all of it. The right of self-determination was created at a time when nations were a lot more homogeneous. With more heteorogeneous societies, it's much harder to determine what that right comprises, at least in my opinion. Especially w.r.t. minorities in a not-yet-country willing to separate.

 

[Charles Brandon]

Without addressing the rights and wrongs of it all, the last fucking thing the EU needs right now is an independent Catalonia.

 

[marcbret87]

As an outsider my perception is that state police are rounding up politicians for wanting to organize a referendum.

It's not so hard to guess who people will sympathize with more.

Of course, that is what the Catalan government is looking for. They don't have any way to achieve independence so they just force the issue with the hope of an international intervention. And it's not quite how you say it, the state police is rounding up people who are using public funds on an illegal referendum.

 

[Tiamant]

Again, the Catalan government is is arresting people because they are spending public money on an illegal referendum.

Nothing fishy about this, nope

Well, this was always the real point of the vote. They knew that they would get more support once the Spanish government took actions against them, the question is if they will get enough numbers to declare the independence. The way I see it is hard for it to be a clear call so the pro-independence will have to decide if they want to take the risk and begin blocking those who support Spain.

Of course this was the point, and they have succeeded thanks to the incompetence with a hint of fascism from the Spanish government. You'd think a true leader would seek an agreement over a situation like this.

 

[Business]

Spanish government has really shot themselves in the foot. I've been all morning reading people that were doubtful about their vote but now they are in a clear YES position.

You need to be a special kind of incompetent to fuck up this bad. Basically the perception is that the YES vote has switched from pro-independence to anti-fascist.

Edit: as we speak, spontaneous rallies are happening across the country to reject the actions of the Guardia Civil done today. The Ramblas are starting to get very crowded, and so is Plaça Sant Jaume and Passeig de Gràcia.

Preach.

 

[intheinbetween]

Nothing fishy about this, nope

Well, the source is kinda pro-independence

 

[marcbret87]

Nothing fishy about this, nope

Is he the only one ordering detentions? I sincerely doubt it. If he is overstepping his duties then he should punished for it of course.

 

[Ferr986]

Well, the source is kinda pro-independence

how it's eldiario pro-independence?

 

[intheinbetween]

how it's eldiario pro-independence?

It's just the impression I got, and I used to like eldiario.es, as they have been always very though with PP, but to me, on this topic, they have been postioning towards the independence side since this all started.

 

[Dierce]

Pro independence, with the exception of Scotland, is largely a detriment to the EU and of course, plays right in the hands of Russia who wants nothing more than instability in Europe. Imagine if this is allowed to happen, you will have calls for independence in other regions in Europe and increasing domestic terrorist activity.

 

[valkyre]

Spanish government fucked up royally.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Pro independence, with the exception of Scotland, is largely a detriment to the EU and of course, plays right in the hands of Russia who wants nothing more than instability in the region. Imagine if this is allowed to happen, you will have calls for independence in other regions in Europe and increasing domestic terrorist activity.

lolwat

 

[gutter_trash]

Yup.

Madrid going hard-line was a dumb move.

 

[Ferr986]

It's just the impression I got, and I used to like eldiario.es, as they have been always very though with PP, but to me, on this topic, they have been postioning towards the independence side since this all started.

IMO I really don't see how eldiario is pro-independence, and I say this as a anti-independence person (I uterly dislike our current spanish gov though).

Hell, it's director has said multiple times he doesn't want the independence for Catalonia, but it's true that he says that a judicial answer it's not the only answer PP should have (something that I agree).

 

[Dierce]

Yup.

Madrid going hard-line was a dumb move.

I really wish those fascist conservatives weren't in power. They should just give the Catalans the same deal they gave the Basques.

 

[Dierce]

lolwat

What is so hard to understand, just look at what the Basque did. If a group of people feels that they are being oppressed they will resort to violence. To make matters worse this entire issue is manufactured by corrupt politicians who want to distract people from reality through nationalism.

 

[Onyar]

Why sanctions? What?

WTF? Why?

I'm sorry but I believe the EU is on Spain's side, plus I have the feeling the central government has been informing the EU about all of this.

It's true that for the EU always had been an internal affair, but Spain just starting to jump democracy and that's should be the main pillar of the union.

 

[Westbahnhof]

lolwat

Well, since the UK are leaving, Scotland would be an exception, since independence could mean joining up.. I guess he meant that?

 

[cebri.one]

Arrests are not being ordered by the goverment.

 

[Dierce]

Well, since the UK are leaving, Scotland would be an exception, since independence could mean joining up.. I guess he meant that?

Sorry didn't notice the part that was bolded, this is precisely it.

 

[Business]

What is so hard to understand, just look at what the Basque did. If a group of people feels that they are being oppressed they will resort to violence. To make matters worse this entire issue is manufactured by corrupt politicians who want to distract people from reality through nationalism.

The Catalan movement has been through the years an example of a civil and pacific movement, take your domestic terrorism nonsense elsewhere.

 

[Theonik]

The only real difference is that Scotland has a constitutional right to have a plebiscite breaking the union whereas Catalonia does not but the legal in this case often does not matter considering the laws are written by the perceived aggressor.

 

[intheinbetween]

It's true that for the EU always had been an internal affair, but Spain just starting to jump democracy and that's should be the main pillar of the union.

How has been Spain jumping democracy? I'm sorry but it's the catalonian politics the ones jumping democracy for their own interests.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Arrests are not being ordered by the goverment.

Don't be a fool, the Judge acted in behalf of the goverment. People on the governing party, knew it was gonna happen yesterday.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Well, since the UK are leaving, Scotland would be an exception, since independence could mean joining up.. I guess he meant that?

It would be a nightmare for the EU since these issues are closely linked. Successful Scottish independence would be a tinder to the bonfire that is Catalunya, Corsica, Sicily, you name it. You could actually see the impact that the failure of the Scottish vote had on sentiment in Catalunya - there was a notable dip in support for independence in polls at the time.