CDPR keeping Witcher 3 keys for Origin, uPlay and GOG; tell GMG to go pound sand

GMG: "they didn't authorize us so we decided to sell their product anyway at a discounted rate that will harm their sales"

This gets my strong disapproval. It's probably legal, but it's the worst kind of grey market practice I can think of. CDPR is free to sell their product however they see fit. It's their product after all. This is literally no different than cdkeys.com and a dozen other sites that do this. I used to treat GMG differently, but not anymore.

From what I understand GMG still paid for those keys so CDPR did receive money even if it's not directly from GMG. I don't see how it's hurting them.
 
I don't own the previous two games.

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GMG is not GOG
 
And setting price floors is grounds for a price fixing investigation. In the US, and moreso in Europe.

It's not de facto illegal as it was before 2007:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/29/business/28cnd-bizcourt.html

However, it opens the door for an extremely complicated and still unresolved issue in competition litigation.

https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/com...ws/dealings-supply-chain/manufacturer-imposed


The answer is that it depends, and the situation is further complicated by CDPR being vertically integrated with GOG. If CDPR was asking for most favored nation clauses to be signed by GMG, it adds yet another layer of complication, both in the US and abroad.

While we are talking about price floors: The UK, for example, still consider resale price maintenance to be illegal, and has investigated cases involving it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resale_price_maintenance#United_Kingdom_law



By all accounts of what I'm seeing, I would find it extremely (extreeeemely) unlikely that this could ever be considered price fixing.
But price fixing is not a necessary condition for something to be considered anti-competitive, as you said.
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It isn't, not at first brush. There's no reason to believe that a GOG key sold by a third party has the same margin for CDPR as a GOG key sold directly. They still have to negotiate the retailer's share, which by all reasonable accounts should be greater than zero.

I think your reading of this is wrong. The relevant law you're citing is about collusion between *two manufacturers*. CDPR made the product and can set the terms of it sale resellers freely. there's nothing anticompetitive about it because you can choose to buy a different game at a different price from a different dev studio. I don't know anything about UK law so I can't speak to that link though.

Edit: let me add once again that GMG is likely also behaving in a way that is legal
 
Yes. Where is the situation similar though? I don't think they can't control who sell it or not. If that would be the case Ebay, play-asia and Kingpin would have been sued into oblivion. The Lik Sang case never was contested anyway since they got sued in many different jurisdiction and they had no money to fight back. Not convinced it can be use as a proof of anything.

Agree with this. Highly doubt this will hold in court. But it raises very fundamental ethical issues when a corporation willfully engages in direct unauthorized selling. I'm quite taken aback by how GMG threw their reputation under the bus with just a few words.
 
What on earth are you rambling about?
Comparing GMG to CDkeys? wtf

Enlighten me on the difference? I'm not comparing the 2 corporations as a whole but specifically in context of this particular sale. It's legal yet unauthorized, which is the very definition of a grey market sale.
 
Yes. Where is the situation similar though? I don't think they can't control who sell it or not. If that would be the case Ebay, play-asia and Kingpin would have been sued into oblivion. The Lik Sang case never was contested anyway since they got sued in many different jurisdiction and they had no money to fight back. Not convinced it can be use as a proof of anything.

I think they cannot stop ebay cause they are individual sellers. There was a case about trademark, tiffany vs ebay, where ebay won because while ebay used tiffany's trademarks in its listings, it did not suggest it was affiliated to tiffany. Which is not the case here; GMG on the W3 listing says they are selling a GOG key, link to a CDPR listing, and say that they are official retailers for CDPR, which in the case of W3 is not true. ebay claimed no affiliations to tiffany, GMG is claiming there are still affiliations, CDPR tried to cut their affiliations, yet GMG still acts like they are affiliated.

The trademark cannot stop them from selling once CDPR starts selling the product -which is why you mentioned the PSP difference-, but the precise truth is, CDPR is not distributing TW3 yet, so they are precisely in the moment where trademark protects them. Although maybe the difference between "sell" and "distribute" isn't important. Also, if the product sold on GMG may or may not work at launch, it may damage CDPR's reputation.

Of couse said working depends on CDPR itself, since they are the ones that could make the GMG keys invalid. Doubt it will get to that.
 
Enlighten me on the difference? I'm not comparing the 2 corporations as a whole but specifically in context of this particular sale. It's legal yet unauthorized, which is the very definition of a grey market sale.

Well, there is a difference between reselling keys purchased using stolen credit card information and reselling keys purchased from an authorized vendor.
 
From what I understand GMG still paid for those keys so CDPR did receive money even if it's not directly from GMG. I don't see how it's hurting them.

It's hurting GOG's sales. CDPR does not necessarily make the same margins through every channel.

Well, there is a difference between reselling keys purchased using stolen credit card information and reselling keys purchased from an authorized vendor.

Is there any proof of stolen credit card info? If so, then my example was unintentionally exaggerated and not what I was trying to convey. I was simply highlighting grey market reselling as a legal but questionable practice.
 
GMG: "they didn't authorize us so we decided to sell their product anyway at a discounted rate that will harm their sales"

This gets my strong disapproval. It's probably legal, but it's the worst kind of grey market practice I can think of. CDPR is free to sell their product however they see fit. It's their product after all. This is literally no different than cdkeys.com and a dozen other sites that do this. I used to treat GMG differently, but not anymore.

Unless you can prove otherwise, the discount is not malicious. GMG usually has a 20% discount on every new release they sell on their site anyways.
 
If GMG is buying keys and reselling at a loss then I don't know what we're supposed to be complaining about. As long as what they are doing is legal and it is giving me the consumer a better value then they are doing the lord's work as far as I'm concerned.

If CDPR wants to complain because they lose some margin from potential GOG sales, I understand, but they are still getting paid.

On another note, I was always and still am planning to buy through GOG since I own the first two there so no hard feelings any direction.
 
From what I understand GMG still paid for those keys so CDPR did receive money even if it's not directly from GMG. I don't see how it's hurting them.

Thing is, they might be buying from someplace like Russia or whatever where they have discounted rates because the buyers there aren't wealthy and they can easily turn to piracy. By selling those keys to the west they're effectively doing shady gray market business and a using the system. Alternatively, they might be buying from non legit sellers like g2a who allegedly sell stuff like stolen keys. Them not saying where they got their keys is very fishy.
 
Man, people can't wait until they hear more information before passing judgement on one side or the other. Not like GMG has done anything to warrant an immediate guilty verdict anyway.

Curious to hear where they get their keys but to act like they're shady all of a sudden without all of the details is weird considering how well liked they were and how their deals are always posted.

So GMG decided to buy from other retailers and then discount it on their site but we don't know where from. That's not exactly the same as a CD key site nor is CDPR not getting money this way but it's not like they became a shady business overnight by wanting to sell the game on their site yet. Could the keys be from other market where they could make deals to sell it at a cheaper price? Sure. Is that what happened? No one knows.
 
How much to you want to bet that the next response will be "Not my problem"?

So I guess you already lost the bet? May be have a debate instead of judging people? I'm happy to be wrong as all I have is a layman's opinion and I feel this is not the right way of doing business. Challenge that if you disagree or simply ignore it. This post is uncalled for.
 
Thing is, they might be buying from someplace like Russia or whatever where they have discounted rates because the buyers there aren't wealthy and they can easily turn to piracy. By selling those keys to the west they're effectively doing shady gray market business and a using the system. Alternatively, they might be buying from non legit sellers like g2a who allegedly sell stuff like stolen keys. Them not saying where they got their keys is very fishy.

If you take GMG at their word, they specifically said they purchased the keys from "third parties and retailers that were approved by CD Projekt RED" it's not too difficult to see why they won't specify where, considering that cdpr might cut them off then as well
 
If you take GMG at their word, they specifically said they purchased the keys from "third parties and retailers that were approved by CD Projekt RED" it's not too difficult to see why they won't specify where, considering that cdpr might cut them off then as well

I wonder if this will lead to CDPR just dealing with no third-party dealers. It may be that next time your only choice is to buy from Steam origin and GOG.
I don't think it's intentionally malicious either. But the kind of discount being offered even before the game is out when the sale was not authorized... does that not strike you as questionable at the very least?

I do think it's at least questionable. If they're selling at a loss that will be very good for CDPR, but I don't think they will be. it just doesn't make sense.
 
Unless you can prove otherwise, the discount is not malicious. GMG usually has a 20% discount on every new release they sell on their site anyways.

I don't think it's intentionally malicious either. But the kind of discount being offered even before the game is out when the sale was not authorized... does that not strike you as questionable at the very least?
 
It's hurting GOG's sales. CDPR does not necessarily make the same margins through every channel.

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Assuming GMG did not get those keys illegally (cutting out CDPR of their profit), it's shittier to cut out an online retailer to push your platform. It's business, but shitty business.

I'm guessing GMG has a legitimate source they don't want to namedrop, to avoid burning bridges.

CDPR is not the one getting pushed around here...

If you take GMG at their word, they specifically said they purchased the keys from "third parties and retailers that were approved by CD Projekt RED" it's not too difficult to see why they won't specify where, considering that cdpr might cut them off then as well

Pretty much.
 
GMG: "they didn't authorize us so we decided to sell their product anyway at a discounted rate that will harm their sales"

This gets my strong disapproval. It's probably legal, but it's the worst kind of grey market practice I can think of. CDPR is free to sell their product however they see fit. It's their product after all. This is literally no different than cdkeys.com and a dozen other sites that do this. I used to treat GMG differently, but not anymore.

Gamestop does the same thing, no? Sure it's used copies, but even during launch you can find one or two open copies for 6-7 bucks cheaper than the new price.

The way I see it, CDPR is doing a power play. They're directly tied to GOG-the most discounted price you can get from digital retailers(Not including Nuuvem) is around 7 bucks. You'd think that Origin/Steam/uPlay would try to undercut each other, but they're not.

They are also launching their new platform. GoGalaxy. Suddenly you start seeing things fit together. New service that would be a direct competitor, endorsed by the developer of this highly esteemed game... Now let's look at GMG. Fun fact, I purchased BL2 from them at around 10-15 bucks cheaper back when it launched. That's my anecdote, but GMG tends to severely undercut the competition. I'm not gonna pretend to know how much a game costs when it's sold in bulk, but it seems to be working for them. So Witcher 3, an extremely anticipated title coming out...and chances are GMG would sell it lower than the $53 pricepoint other competitors sold it at....including GOG.

I mean, it's a theory, but it's what I got after processing the info provided.

I don't think it's intentionally malicious either. But the kind of discount being offered even before the game is out when the sale was not authorized... does that not strike you as questionable at the very least?

It's business as usual. Yes, it's underhanded to buy it from a retailer that's approved by CDPR, but in this digital world you have to skirt the lines of morality in order to keep your business afloat. GMG realizes W3 is a hot commodity.
 
Like I said before, I noticed Witcher 3 is not widely available unlike other games.

In the UK it seems only GOG and Steam or go through uplay or EA Origin. Only GMG and CDkeys allthekeys.com are selling it cheaper and all other places are stuck selling the boxed version only.
GMG is sticking out like a sore thumb here and in this instance is no better than cdkeys allthekeys.com looking from the outside.

I don't know if GMG are getting legit keys from EU sources, I'm not about to search every EU country but if these are from Russia which are provided by CDPR at cost price to encourage people to buy in these regions then it raises a concern and even some UK EU tax issues.
 
If GMG is buying keys and reselling at a loss then I don't know what we're supposed to be complaining about. As long as what they are doing is legal and it is giving me the consumer a better value then they are doing the lord's work as far as I'm concerned.

If CDPR wants to complain because they lose some margin from potential GOG sales, I understand, but they are still getting paid.

On another note, I was always and still am planning to buy through GOG since I own the first two there so no hard feelings any direction.
You have to look at the bigger picture. Giving such low price might devalue the product across all market and it'll hurt them in long term.
 
I don't think it's intentionally malicious either. But the kind of discount being offered even before the game is out when the sale was not authorized... does that not strike you as questionable at the very least?
No, it doesn't because they offer the same type of discount on other new releases. They are taking a hit on their own margins to give a cheaper price to their customers.
 
Seems weird for CDPR not to let GMG sell keys. I guess this whole thing depends on where GMG is getting their keys.

Anyway does anyone have a timeline for this whole thing?

Because right now it looks like GameSpot posted that article saying "Hey you can get The Witcher 3 for real cheap here." and CDPR saw that article and said "Hey now wait, we aren't selling keys to GMG what is going on here." Which on the surface doesn't seem so bad, but right now this really seemed like CDPR should of waited longer before they publicly insinuated that GMG is doing something shady. Because if it comes out that GMG is buying their keys from authorized resellers like they claim then that doesn't paint a very good picture of CDPR to me.
 
You have to look at the bigger picture. Giving such low price might devalue the product across all market and it'll hurt them in long term.

Are you kidding me? Witcher 3 will be $5 in a year on sale through every retailer. LOL.
 
No, it doesn't because they offer the same type of discount on other new releases. They are taking a hit on their own margins to give a cheaper price to their customers.

That doesn't even make a lot of sense. How would a business make money by buying games at full price and resell them at half?
 
Edit: I realize I might be a tax late with this reply, I should stop watching Netflix when replying

I feel like OP should be updated with giant bold letters stating that CDPR has only warned against buying keys due to not knowing where they are coming from. That's the entire basis for this discussion but people have gone into tangents of price fixing and pushing GoG over anything else.

Such a cluster fuck and all goes back to Gamespot and their shoddy reporting.

Guys can't catch a break and I agree with you on this.

-Someone makes thread in CDPR forums about the deal on GMG
-Business development manager warns users for both their sakes
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-GSpot decides to run with a sand pounding article
-Internet explodes in outage
-Business development manager explains the reasoning behind their warning thanks to GameSpot's click bait sand pounding article and enraged costumers
wONqZUA.jpg
 
If you take GMG at their word, they specifically said they purchased the keys from "third parties and retailers that were approved by CD Projekt RED" it's not too difficult to see why they won't specify where, considering that cdpr might cut them off then as well

If we are to take them at their word, they don't buy keys from third parties according to their blurb:

"We have direct contracts as an official, approved retail partner with every publisher / developer that has a game listed on Green Man Gaming, so our customers can buy with confidence."

So that's a lie to begin with and when the chain of trust breaks down who knows what else they could be lying about.
 
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Assuming GMG did not get those keys illegally (cutting out CDPR of their profit), it's shittier to cut out an online retailer to push your platform. It's business, but shitty business.

I beg to differ. I strongly believe that the creator of a product has every right to dictate how their product is sold. Is that selfish? Sure. But there's nothing shitty about it. CDPR is not obliged to care about their competition for their own product.

I'm guessing GMG has a legitimate source they don't want to namedrop, to avoid burning bridges.

We can agree on that

CDPR is not the one getting pushed around here...

I don't think anybody is being pushed around. Nobody's the poor little victim that needs to be defended. It's a case of 2 rich corporations and at least one of them openly toeing the line and breaking trust. Clearly we disagree on who that is.
 
They bought them from a middleman so at the very least has to be higher than the price CDPR set.

Maybe, but bulk price discounts or just simple loss leading could be at play here.

I want CDPR to explain why they have decided not to sell to specific retailers for this game when they have worked with them in the past. Because on the surface, it's pretty shitty. You're cutting out customers from these retailers and funneling to your "approved" retailers which are either selling your keys or Steam. Of course, they're the cheapest place to buy if you own the previous two games. If we're going to be open here, tell me, a customer, why you're limiting my choices here.
 
If we are to take them at their word, they don't buy keys from third parties according to their blurb:

"We have direct contracts as an official, approved retail partner with every publisher / developer that has a game listed on Green Man Gaming, so our customers can buy with confidence."

So that's a lie to begin with and when the chain of trust breaks down who knows what else they could be lying about.
Okay, but accusing them of buying keys purchased through stolen credit card information is a bit much.
 
You have to look at the bigger picture. Giving such low price might devalue the product across all market and it'll hurt them in long term.
Even if the entire market decides to loss lead the game, they are still buying their bulk keys directly from CDPR at the same price. Again, it hurts the GOG margins but it otherwise doesn't affect them. This is not something customers should be worrying over.
 
By the way, Amazon and GAME in the UK aren't selling download keys.

I can only find Steam, CDPR own website and costly uplay origin for a legit download key.

Please don't quote me saying cdkeys is selling them, I know.

Point is while I'm on CDPR side for saying GMG is selling from unknown sources and we have GMG admitting to flouting their website policy of dealing direct. CDPR are being pretty limiting to where you can buy this game digitally.

They'd be stupid to shut out Steam and who the fuck buys from uplay origin so you're left with gog. I think its a bad move by CDPR.
 
Considering they didn't generate the keys out of nowhere, their origin was from a legit source, be it give away or special price from the developer. So as far as it's theirs, what's wrong in selling them for whatever the price?
 
This just tells me that GMG is extremely devoted to driving customers to their website to the point that they'll go out of their way to get the products that customers want, and I respect that immensely.
 
Okay, but accusing them of buying keys purchased through stolen credit card information is a bit much.

To be fair they might not be aware of the nature of the sites they're buying from. A lot of gaffers don't know some of those sites aren't legit either.
 
Gamestop does the same thing, no? Sure it's used copies, but even during launch you can find one or two open copies for 6-7 bucks cheaper than the new price.

Yep. And to be honest, I've not approved of Gamestop's practices either. But I'd rather not derail the topic by going there.

It's business as usual. Yes, it's underhanded to buy it from a retailer that's approved by CDPR, but in this digital world you have to skirt the lines of morality in order to keep your business afloat. GMG realizes W3 is a hot commodity.

At least we agree that it's underhanded :)
 
So GMG will stoop to reselling keys if they can't get them directly. I don't think legitimate sources are enough to really make it okay as it's circumventing the developer's cut, which should be the whole point of selling their product. Although, given hawk's post, this is an unusual scenario stemming from GOG, GMG's actions have still managed to shake my faith in their service. Now, every time I buy something from them, I'll have to wonder, "is this money going to the developer?" That isn't a question I want to ponder.
Let's try a thought exercise on the mechanics of what may have happened here.


The Witcher 3 is currently being sold on Steam, GOG, and other secondary platforms. From the information we know so far, it appears that, after an unsuccessful round of negotiations, CDPR has decided to not supply keys directly to GMG.

From the perspective of the business, we have the following scenarios:

- A sale from Steam, through which CDPR obtains approximately 70% of the price of sale

- A sale from GOG, through which CDPR obtains an undisclosed percentage of the price of sale. Presumably, being vertically integrated with CDPR, that amount is above 70%.

- A sale from other retailers and key sellers, who buy keys wholesales from CDPR at an undisclosed price.


Conditional on selling outside of Steam, it stands to reason that customers are more likely to be price-sensitive after leaving the predominant PC platform. GMG, in turn, has built a reputation for having the lowest prices in the market.

This, I assume, comes through by employing a razor-thin margins approach. They do not sell console games, do not ship anything, and work their business by cutting their own margins to the bone for most major new releases. Assuming very thin margins, then, we may expect their share of profits to sit anywhere between 25 and 33%, depending on the game -- roughly in line with Steam.

The margins from selling on Steam are fixed at 70% after Valve's cut, but is a function of the price, which encourages CDPR to avoid a price war. Furthermore, a faster speed of price decreases also decreases the competitiveness of the platform that's likely to have the largest margin for them -- GOG.

By attempting to block out GMG, then, CDPR can cut off the head of price competition in the PC gaming market: Prices are set at $53.99, with additional price differentiation for owners of the previous games, and in turn also obtains a proportionally larger share of the customer base on their own platform with higher margins.

In short: GMG's pricing practices can lead to lower prices from everyone else in general. But this particularly affects CDPR, since the competition with their platform directly affects the margin that they get by selling on GOG. Selling GOG keys on other retailers should be somewhat in line with selling a key in Steam -- the retailers get a cut, or Valve gets a cut. What GMG did was give nearly all of the "cut" back to the consumer. But in this case, moreso than with developers and publishers that do NOT hold platforms, CDPR's margins are more impacted than they otherwise would have been.

Restricting GMG from selling keys was a shrewd business move. But GMG didn't choose to just not sell the game, and so here we are.

Strictly based on the information we know -- It's ridiculous to excuse either CDPR's business decision to not sell keys to GMG, or GMG's decision to resort to another seller. There are two separate, if connected, issues to be analyzed: The negotiation with GMG and their subsequent move. One doesn't excuse the other, and we need more information to actually analyze either without making quite a few assumptions like I did above.

As a complete bystander, this seems like a good post. So good that I'll quote the whole thing in all its glory.
 
I'm really glad I'm getting Witcher 3 for free now. Them throwing GMG under the bus like that is a really poor move.
 
I beg to differ. I strongly believe that the creator of a product has every right to dictate how their product is sold. Is that selfish? Sure. But there's nothing shitty about it. CDPR is not obliged to care about their competition for their own product.
You say that like it only applies to CDPR. If GMG gets cut out by their competitor, then they're more than welcome to buy keys from reputable sources and sell them at a loss. If that hurts GOG, well, GMG is not obligated to care about their competition.

So GMG will stoop to reselling keys if they can't get them directly. I don't think legitimate sources are enough to really make it okay as it's circumventing the developer's cut, which should be the whole point of selling their product.
Presumably, if GMG is buying from authorized sellers, then CDPR is getting their cut. It's just currently unknown if they're buying the keys from out of region.
 
So GMG will stoop to reselling keys if they can't get them directly. I don't think legitimate sources are enough to really make it okay as it's circumventing the developer's cut, which should be the whole point of selling their product. Although, given hawk's post, this is an unusual scenario stemming from GOG, GMG's actions have still managed to shake my faith in their service. Now, every time I buy something from them, I'll have to wonder, "is this money going to the developer?" That isn't a question I want to ponder.

Except this seem to be the most implausible scenario around. The keys don't just grow on trees here so someone is paying CDPR/GOG for them and then selling them to GMG.
 
I beg to differ. I strongly believe that the creator of a product has every right to dictate how their product is sold. Is that selfish? Sure. But there's nothing shitty about it. CDPR is not obliged to care about their competition for their own product.

.
How a product is sold? Sure.
What people do after they buy your product?
You should have no power on that.

If I want to buy a million copies of the witcher 3 and sell them for 5$ For whatever reasons I have, nothing can stop me. Its not shady, its not illegal. I can do whatever the fck i want to keys I buy
 
I'm really glad I'm getting Witcher 3 for free now. Them throwing GMG under the bus like that is a really poor move.

Honestly, the way this is turning out is looking to be bad PR for CDPR. To someone reading the annotations, GMG is biting the bullet and losing money on selling the game for $39, CDPR refused to work with GMG, GMG is receiving their copies from an authorized retailer who's currently unknown.

As someone looking into the box from outside, GMG is the company that's doing things 'Right'(Whatever that means), and CDPR is scummy. Unless something is being omitted..
 
How a product is sold? Sure.
What people do after they buy your product?
You should have no power on that.

If I want to buy a million copies of the witcher 3 and sell them for 5$ For whatever reasons I have, nothing can stop me. Its not shady, its not illegal. I can do whatever the fck i want to keys I buy

Exactly, and considering how CD Projekt and their partners are grossly overcharging ($20 more for digital than retail) for The Witcher 3 on digital platforms in AU and other regions, they can go fuck themselves.

They've tried to position themselves as "pro gamer" all these years, but are essentially becoming the same as mainstream publishers with their antics.
 
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