ethomaz
Banned
Depends who own the IP.
Bloodborne is first-party even if developed by a 3rd-party.
Edit - I did a little check and Returnal seems like to be a 1st-party game.
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CEO of HOUSEMARQUE: we are truly thankful to our publishing partner Sony, who has given us an opportunity to work on something very risky.
Bloodborne is first-party even if developed by a 3rd-party.
Edit - I did a little check and Returnal seems like to be a 1st-party game.
Reality Czar
Banned
Bad video game is a video game. Bad! Not good! Linear is bad. Gameplay is bad. Cutscenes bad. Everything so bad.
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Hezekiah
Banned
This is what I love about Sony, they're not afraid to take risks and put their money where there mouth is.
A lot of people had doubts about Returnal (myself included) but the gameplay and reviews look really promising.
With Ratchet, Kena, and Horizon to come, this is looking like a better debut year than PS4 and every other Playstation.
A lot of people had doubts about Returnal (myself included) but the gameplay and reviews look really promising.
With Ratchet, Kena, and Horizon to come, this is looking like a better debut year than PS4 and every other Playstation.
Masterbrew
Member
crap I thought it was Supreme Snowboarding 2
aka Boarderzone
aka Boarderzone
Haggard
Banned
1st/2nd/3rd party definition rests on the developers relationship with the platform holder. Housemarque is independent and returnal a piece of comissioned work.
That makes it a playstation exclusive but also a 3rd party game as long as housemarque is in the picture at all.
2nd party, depending on if you acknowledge that category, yes. But never a first party game due to the 3rd party developer. Ownership of IP does not count towards this categorization this rests entriely on who the developer is.
In professional development this only changes once the original developer is completely out of the picture and all responsibility for the game is transferred to the "first" party or the developer is bought outright.
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ethomaz
Banned
That is the wrong definition.
First-party are games where the intelectual property is on the platform hands.
Third-party are games where the intelectual property is on the 3rd-party hands.
Second-party is just a "made up" name by journalists to describe first-party games developed by third-party devs.. it doesn't exists in the industry at all.
Bloodborne is first-party.
All games created by Insonmiac before purchase for Sony were 1st-party.
Returnal I'm not sure... if the IP is with Sony then it is first-party... if not then it is a 3rd-party exclusive.
But all media I read defines it as first-party so Sony seems to own the IP.
Edit - There is some atypical cases like The Show on PS5 is first-party but on Xbox it is 3rd-party.
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Snake00
Member
"Yeah, when I saw the trailer I thought this was basically the same as TLoU/Uncharted."
Said no one ever.
Third party but playstation exclusive IP's are a thing. Example: Final Fantasy 16.
Haggard
Banned
absolutely correct. But exclusivity doesn`t make FF16 a first party game.
nope it isn`t.
I linked several definitons a bit earlier in the thread.
The developer is the deciding factor. IP ownership doesn`t matter.
But anyways I´ve had that discussion already. Decide for yourself what you want to believe.
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Zeroing
Banned
I did wrote some time ago that this was certainly Sony pushing housemarque to push beyond their comfort zone. Meaning both were talking risks.
Will it pay off? It is already. For example, Everyone is talking about housemarque…a not well know studio. That makes people more curious about what they did previously.
Will it pay off? It is already. For example, Everyone is talking about housemarque…a not well know studio. That makes people more curious about what they did previously.
ethomaz
Banned
It is the definition lolabsolutely correct. But exclusivity doesn`t make FF16 a first party game.
nope it isn`t.
I linked several definitons a bit earlier in the thread.
The developer is the deciding factor. IP ownership doesn`t matter.
But anyways I´ve had that discussion already. Decide for yourself what you want to believe.
It is about IP owership.
Bloodborne is and always will be first-party... you can't change that.
Demon's Souls is first-party and From had to create a clone to go 3rd-party.
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muteZX
Banned
Literally everyone. PS2 gameplay = running avatar shoots at things. Zero next gen game mechanics, extensive, inovative traversing, next gen AI, rope-soft-hard-fluid physics, non-static terrain, etc. etc. etc. etc. "PS2 gameplay". The PS2 can play this game playfully.
Returnal is a simple action TPS AA rogue like game, gameplay-wise class PS2. Deal with it. Housemarque knows what they did.
Haggard
Banned
Your personal one maybe. Not the official one.
Nope.
No need to change what never was the case. From Software does not belong to Sony.
BluePoint does not belong to Sony.
But again, believe what you want.
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killatopak
Gold Member
Ironic.
yurinka
Member
So according to you Returnal is also exactly the same than Fortnite, Halo and Contra on the NES, because they are games with running avatars shooting at things. What a dumb reasoning.
Both Bloodborne and Demon's Souls are published by Sony, what makes them 1st party. They are (at least mostly) developed by a 3rd party (this is, a studio not owned by the first party) studio, which makes these games 2nd party in addition to first party.
Sony owns both Bloodborne and Demon's Souls brands, so they are 1st party IPs. If Sony wants, tomorrow they can ask Naughty Dog or the Destruction All Stars guys to make a Bloodborne Kart game without even asking From Software. From Software can't make a Bloodborne game without Sony.
First party are the games published by the console platform holder, who like in this Returnal case, also owns the IP.
These first party games sometimes they are developed by an external studios not owned by the platform holder (so they are 3rd party studio). A game published by the 1st party and developed by a 3rd party studio is known as 2nd party.
There has been cases where the first party allowed that studio to port the game to PC or mobile, even with another publisher (Death Stranding, Journey) but games still are first party. Even in some case sold the IP to the dev (Rime).
A 3rd party game is when the 1st party isn't the publisher of the game. It's published and developed by someone else other than the 1st party, whose publisher or dev also owns that IP. That is, Street Fighter V, Monster Hunter Rise and so on.
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ethomaz
Banned
You are just mixing the terms... 1st-party studio/3rd-party studio with 1st-party game / 3rd-party game.
Definitions
1st-party studio = studio owned by the platform holder
3rd-party studio = studio not owned by the platform holder
1st-party game = game owned by the platform holder
3rd-party game = game not owned by the platform holder
The Show 2021 is a 1st-party studio developing a 1st-party game on PS.
The Show 2021 is a 1st-party studio developing a 3rd-party game on Xbox.
Bloorborne is a 3rd-party studio developing a 1st-party game on PS.
CoD is a 3rd-party studio developing a 3rd-party game on PS.
I give you all the industry possibilities.
When a 3rd-party Studio used to only developed 1st-party games it is used informally by journalist the terms 2nd-party studio (Insomniac in the past that only developed 1st-party games to Sony but not the case of From Software because they developed 3rd-party games too).
Edit - Added 2nd-party.
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Haggard
Banned
no no no and no. But I´ll not discuss this further. it`s pointless.
you`re mixing up IP ownership and original development. But ok whatever
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
ethomaz
Banned
ToTTenTranz
Banned
I believe what you mean with "1st-party game made by 3rd party studio" is usually called a "2nd-party game". It's basically having the console maker funding the game development by an independent studio, which leads to the game IP belonging to the console maker.
E.g. Demon's Souls, Death Stranding and Bayonetta 2.
Ass of Can Whooping
Member
Nope it's just a third party making a first party game
Second party is a special use case, i.e maybe pokemon
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ethomaz
Banned
Thanks... I added a edit with the 2nd-party part.
"When a 3rd-party Studio used to only developed 1st-party games it is used informally by journalist the terms 2nd-party studio (Insomniac in the past that only developed 1st-party games to Sony but not the case of From Software because they developed 3rd-party games too)."
Demon's Sous is a first-party game.
From Software never developed only first-party games so they were never called a second-party studio.
There is some confusion about the Death Stranding ownership so I will not claim either.
Bayonetta I need to check because it is really very confusing but I believe it is a 3rd-party exclusive.
The best example of second-party studio was Insomniac before Overdrive... they just worked in 1st-party games for Sony... the Pokemon studio is a example of 2nd-party studio too.
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kyoji
Member
Proud of Housemarque! I've been high off this games appeal for me personally after its initial showing at the ps5 game show case last year.
Time for Sony to go ahead and make it official and tie the knot with HM, Bluepoint, etc. also go on ahead and scoop up capcom and square while youre at it Sony, You are the big dog on the block, no cap
Time for Sony to go ahead and make it official and tie the knot with HM, Bluepoint, etc. also go on ahead and scoop up capcom and square while youre at it Sony, You are the big dog on the block, no cap
Haggard
Banned
You know you cam learn with that.
muteZX
Banned
If I take a native PS5 game / Ryzen CPU, 10T GPU, SSD / and transfer it to PS2 and the gameplay will not suffer in any way - then it's a PS2 class game and maybe even a PS1. Something is running around shooting things.
All that monstrous power / CPU, GPU, SSD / was used as .. what .. where ..
I've been playing games for over 40 years, not 40 months.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
2nd party doesn't exist, and was more of an internet trope. Many developers have come out about that made up term.
Nobody internally uses the term "2nd party," only us gamers in the internets.
Hezekiah
Banned
Gears 6??
yurinka
Member
I am still waiting for a single example of a AAA TPS roguelike with bullet hell arcade gameplay on PS2. If you have been playing for 40 years you'll know that it didn't exist. And less with a narrative, cinematic horror focus and with an old ugly lady as main character.
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Fbh
Member
It's not the riskiest of game (I mean, it's not a AAA nail salon simulator or something) but I can definitely see the point.
There actually aren't that many (if any) full priced AAA rouge likes that I can think of. And Housemark, while great, was struggling a bit after 2 games with underperforming sales.
After all the talk of Sony only investing in big and safe AAA assured blockbusters I'm still not seeing it. Demon Souls is still rather niche, Returnal is still a rather risky game in that price range and even Ratchet, while more established, isn't exactly the "cinematic Sony game" people are always complaining about.
Housemarque themselves decided to try out something different after their 2 previous games (Matterfall and Nex Machina) failed to sell well.
Still, it's great of Sony to believe in their new project. At one point there must have been some meeting in line with "hey so our two previous games kinda bombed and now we need more money than ever to make our biggest project yet in a genre that's somewhat outside our comfort zone, please believe in us"
There actually aren't that many (if any) full priced AAA rouge likes that I can think of. And Housemark, while great, was struggling a bit after 2 games with underperforming sales.
After all the talk of Sony only investing in big and safe AAA assured blockbusters I'm still not seeing it. Demon Souls is still rather niche, Returnal is still a rather risky game in that price range and even Ratchet, while more established, isn't exactly the "cinematic Sony game" people are always complaining about.
Housemarque themselves decided to try out something different after their 2 previous games (Matterfall and Nex Machina) failed to sell well.
Still, it's great of Sony to believe in their new project. At one point there must have been some meeting in line with "hey so our two previous games kinda bombed and now we need more money than ever to make our biggest project yet in a genre that's somewhat outside our comfort zone, please believe in us"
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muteZX
Banned
Grow up and see. You got advice from a much more experienced player. If you want to keep playing technically trivial things on the PS5, keep doing it but be reasonable and don't pay more than 20 euros / usd.
I mean this game was created 4 years ago... you do know 4 years was along time ago, right?Bubububut Jason Schreier said Sony doesn't like risks!!!! He has insider sources damnit!!
yurinka
Member
I've been playing for 40 years too, and developing games since 16 years ago, many of them top companies. In fact, I rejected a job offer from Housemarque many years ago, and I have at least (probably 2 or 3, not sure if still ther) a former coworker there whose first game at Housemarque was Returnal.
I didn't got advice, you just wrote non-sensical stuff. You have no fucking idea of how expensive, difficult and risky is to make a game like Returnal. I won't pay 80 euro for it, but I'll gladly pay 60 for it. And you have no idea about shooters or game design if you think the gameplay of a generic PS2 TPS is remotely similar to the 2D bullet hell arcade gameplay of a Housemarque game and that it's easy to mix them. Or if you think that to introduce the roguelike part isn't a big change for basically all the game design, progress and narrative of the game. Or that to mix the 2D bullet hell arcade gameplay with a cinematic, narrative AAA Sony stuff is an easy, simple stuff.
This game is very risky, bold and brave bet that tries to achieve many challenges.
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mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
I'd like us to bring that term back. It's easier to understand.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
It really isn't though.
IP rights are IP rights. A lot of these 3rd party developed 1st party games are also so intertwined with 1st party dev team support and tools that they are just that, 1st party games.
It's very rare now where a 3rd party developed 1st party game don't work closely with a 1st party team and tools. They are 1st party games. It's really not that hard.
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nowhat
Gold Member
How Housemarque is turning to its past for its future
Even if the city of Helsinki didn't have a decent claim to being the capital of video games, it's certainly got a decen…
www.eurogamer.net
Those damned gamers in the internets!
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Well, he had to say it in a language we can understand, eh? He is calling himself 2nd party, not the game. That also makes me think they will be taken into the WWS fold, since he made sure not to say 3rd party as in "available for other systems to contract them." Maybe I am reading too much into it, but I would not be shocked if they were WWS very soon, especially with the great reviews.How Housemarque is turning to its past for its future
Even if the city of Helsinki didn't have a decent claim to being the capital of video games, it's certainly got a decen…
Those damned gamers in the internets!
It's still a first party game at the end of the day. Who own's the IP?
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nowhat
Gold Member
I don't know, and frankly don't care. And yes, Sony totally should get Housemarque, I was of the opinion way before Returnal was released. But it's not a publicly traded company, so it's not so straightforward.
Just that I think it's both fascinating and brain-hurting that such a simple blog post can devolve into several pages of virtual dick-waggling about what constitutes "first party", especially when all parties can be correct or wrong depending on the point of view, and ultimately it doesn't matter at all.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
So this is the new excuse to keep hating on Jim?
killatopak
Gold Member
ethomaz
Banned
Hard to say... the last Housemarque games in partnership with Sony were exclusives.
Resogun and Materfall released only on PS consoles.
They did have a multiplatform game not related to Sony that come to PC... Nex Machina.
Physiognomonics
Member
Only if they allow it. I think they want to stay independant.
Evidence that the term '1st/3rd party software(game)' has anything to do with the ownership of intellectual property.
I know this is annoying, but here are some quotes from what has so far been the only source reference provided in this discussion:
Third Party software:
"software created by programmers or publishers independent of the manufacturer of the hardware for which it is intended"
www.dictionary.com
Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words
The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!
www.dictionary.com
"Third party software refers to programs that are developed by companies other than the company that developed the computer's operating system. Therefore, any Macintosh applications that are not developed by Apple are considered third party applications. Likewise, any Windows programs developed by companies other than Microsoft are called third party programs. Since most programs are developed by companies other than Apple and Microsoft, third party applications make up the majority of software programs."
techterms.com
Third Party Definition - What does third party mean?
Learn how third-party hardware and software companies sell components and programs not provided by OEMs.
techterms.com
Third party developer:
"Third Party Developer means an entity, other than Respondent, the Commission-approved Acquirer of the AXSYS Assets, or their respective customers, that is engaged in the development of Software for process industries."
www.lawinsider.com
Third Party Developer Definition | Law Insider
Sample Contracts and Business Agreements
www.lawinsider.com
These definitions align perfectly with what I (and others) have been saying so far.
So please, show me where these definitions are used to describe ownership rights outside of made-up forum jargon.
sublimit
Banned
Pre-production obviously started a long time ago but that means nothing. Pre-production stage doesn't cost that much. It's the full development stage that is more costly and that is when usually companies hire more stuff.And that is when games usually get cancelled because development costs get out of proportion and there is risk they might not reach their sales targets. Full development of Returnal didn't start long before Jim Ryan took over and if what Schreier said had any truth in it "bad guy" Jim Ryan would have cancelled it due to it being too risky as a project and due to not reaching its target sales (which is the most likely outcome).
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Ass of Can Whooping
Member
Evidence that the term '1st/3rd party software(game)' has anything to do with the ownership of intellectual property.
I know this is annoying, but here are some quotes from what has so far been the only source reference provided in this discussion:
Third Party software:
"software created by programmers or publishers independent of the manufacturer of the hardware for which it is intended"
Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words
The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!
"Third party software refers to programs that are developed by companies other than the company that developed the computer's operating system. Therefore, any Macintosh applications that are not developed by Apple are considered third party applications. Likewise, any Windows programs developed by companies other than Microsoft are called third party programs. Since most programs are developed by companies other than Apple and Microsoft, third party applications make up the majority of software programs."
Third Party Definition - What does third party mean?
Learn how third-party hardware and software companies sell components and programs not provided by OEMs.
Third party developer:
"Third Party Developer means an entity, other than Respondent, the Commission-approved Acquirer of the AXSYS Assets, or their respective customers, that is engaged in the development of Software for process industries."
Third Party Developer Definition | Law Insider
Sample Contracts and Business Agreements
These definitions align perfectly with what I (and others) have been saying so far.
So please, show me where these definitions are used to describe ownership rights outside of made-up forum jargon.
I'll ask you what that looney clowned himself on too
Why is Naughty Dog called a first party developer
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