Support NeoGAF

[Deepwater]

You first. I never mentioned any names.

I wasn't replying to you

 

[Cocaloch]

For real. It's a harmless flag, not to mention it's not even a hateful one.

Do you think Palestinians might disagree? Do you think non-Zionist LGBTQ+ folks, including many Jewish people, might not want to be associated with Zionism?

You can compartmentalize your identity, but this isn't even trying. In fact it's probably trying to conflate the two for political reasons.

 

[Cocaloch]

This isn't surprising in the gay community at all. The gay community is known for blatant racism so I'm not surprised by this.

While this may be true, that doesn't mean that's what this case is about. Which is evidenced by the fact that Zionism was clearly the major issue.

 

[IrishNinja]

But people on GAF told me minorities can't be bigots.

what a well-thought out and constructive hot take for this thread

comments like these in threads like this suck and you all should stop making them. Are straight white males the only demographic allowed to have disagreements and conflict without observers passing by to make paternalistic comments about what they think folk should be doing?

There isn't a social movement (based on marginalized identity) born out of this country that didn't have CONSTANT intra/inter-conflicts. Yall would know this if ya knowledge on activist movements were deeper than a shallow puddle. So marginalized people don't all fucking agree. So? And? The fuck They never had. That's called being human.

Edit: If your litmus is "people on GAF have said that minorities can't be racist, OR prejudiced, OR bigoted" then you will find that I do not pass because I always say minorities can be bigoted.

Thanks for playing though

thank you - this GAF-as-a-monolith nonsense is so played

One of the women expelled posted her account here:

I'll take her at her word that she didn't see her flag as having anything to do with Israel, but I don't find this particularly sympathetic. There's zero indication that she even considered why her flag might make members of other marginalized communities uncomfortable or that there might be any merit to their concerns; instead, her claim to victimhood allows her to distort the reality of "I was asked to remove a flag that made other people uncomfortable" into "I was kicked out for being Jewish."

Intersectionality is about all forms of oppression being interconnected, not "all forms of oppression except those whose acknowledgement might meaningfully challenge my white liberal worldview."

Also, LOL at not wanting to turn this into a debate about Israel and Palestine. Sorry, you don't get to do that when that's the entire reason your flag wasn't welcome at the Dyke March in the first place.

yeah, this should really be in the OP

 

[squidyj]

as said before the thread title is the exact title of the article linked in the OP from BBC News

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40407057

of course that's what you choose to respond to.

 

[Rest]

I wasn't replying to you

Then why did you quote me twice in that post?

 

[phanphare]

yeah, this should really be in the OP

I feel like I'm just going to get more shit for trying to frame the narrative or whatever..

 

[Socivol]

While this may be true, that doesn't mean that's what this case is about. Which is evidenced by the fact that Zionism was clearly the major issue.

I was saying that I wasn't surprised that a marginalized group (gay people) would be against another marginalized group. This also happens where the black community is largely anti-gay which is just weird.

 

[NervousXtian]

What a shit show. When you're talking about being triggered by a flag, it's time to start rethinking your approach to life.

These parades should be about coming together, not about trying to exclude someone.

 

[Mahonay]

thank you - this GAF-as-a-monolith nonsense is so played

It's an old record that never stop getting played by some posters. It's the worst. Usually used when people are trying to reason their own shitty views, and that we must simply all be colluding to disagree with you.

 

[Cocaloch]

I was saying that I wasn't surprised that a marginalized group (gay people) would be against another marginalized group. This also happens where the black community is largely anti-gay which is just weird.

I know that's what you were saying. I also know the point of the analogy was to imply that Zionists were a marginalized group that deserve to be protected. They are not. Zionism and Jewishness are not synonyms.

What a shit show. When you're talking about being triggered by a flag, it's time to start rethinking your approach to life.

These parades should be about coming together, not about trying to exclude someone.

Do you think Zionism might be excluding some people from some things?

 

[EmiPrime]

For real. It's a harmless flag, not to mention it's not even a hateful one.

Unless you're Palestinian or Lebanese but I guess they don't matter? Are you going to argue that the Imperial Japanese Navy flag is just a harmless flag too?

 

[Deepwater]

Then why did you quote me twice in that post?

Because you made a comment that started a conversation chain about people on GAF saying minorities can't be bigoted. An individual replied to you to pull the receipts and the person I was replying to said to check my post history. I quoted the entire conversation to illustrate the idiocy of falsely quoting me out of context from another thread.

and lo and behold I said in that very thread that minorities can be bigoted. If you don't see a difference between racism as a concept and bigotry/prejudice, I'm not here to educate you on that ITT.

So just that we're all clear. Nobody has yet to produce evidence, not saying it doesn't exist, that people on GAF has said minorities can't be bigoted OR racist, or whatever.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

Then why did you quote me twice in that post?

This is what happens when you drag the cross you bear across a thread without naming names. Meanwhile, plenty of posters in this thread are decrying the act of banning the symbol as wrong-headed and unhelpful, completely undermining your shitty hot take.

 

[Rest]

What a shit show. When you're talking about being triggered by a flag, it's time to start rethinking your approach to life.

Nah, assholes around where I live carry Confederate flags all the time, that definitely makes me feel less safe in my community. From the limited descriptions I've seen in this thread the ones that got these people kicked out shouldn't have been seen as symbols of hate, oppression or violent intent, but that doesn't mean there are no flags that should be.

Flags are banners the purpose of which is to show who we choose to relate to. There are definitely flags that represent groups that want to harm others, if someone flies a flag like that they want to be seen as part of those groups and should be considered as such.

This is what happens when you drag the cross you bear across a thread without naming names. Meanwhile, plenty of posters in this thread are decrying the act of banning the symbol as wrong-headed and unhelpful, completely undermining your shitty hot take.

I never said everyone on GAF agreed with those people, so they're not undermining anything I said.

 

[EmiPrime]

Flags are banners the purpose of which is to show who we choose to relate to. There are definitely flags that represent groups that want to harm others, if someone flies a flag like that they want to be seen as part of those groups and should be considered as such.

Well said.

 

[Father_Brain]

Yeah I dunno man. How is she supposed to express a Jewish identity without a star of David? (I legitimately don't know what other symbol she could use)

Banning that seems to go too far, assuming she didn't express support for Zionism like OP lady did.

Tallit, kippot, T-shirts, banners, literally anything not involving waving a big striped flag resembling the Israeli one.

 

[boiled goose]

But people on GAF told me minorities can't be bigots.

That has never been a view seriously propagated on gaf.

The nuanced claim is that prejudice is different from the broader effects of societal and institutional racism or discrimination.

 

[Cocaloch]

Flags are banners the purpose of which is to show who we choose to relate to. There are definitely flags that represent groups that want to harm others, if someone flies a flag like that they want to be seen as part of those groups and should be considered as such.

Like the person in the story? I get just not thinking about it and seeing it as a symbol of Jewishness in general, but clearly that wasn't what was going on here. I don't understand what you're trying to argue here?

 

[phanphare]

Tallit, kippot, T-shirts, banners, literally anything not involving waving a big striped flag resembling the Israeli one.

not all Jews are religious therefore not all Jews wear a yarmulke or tzittzit. also there are many different Judaisms and not every sect wears a yarmulke or tzittzit.

Like the person in the story? I get just not thinking about it and seeing it as a symbol of Jewishness in general, but clearly that wasn't what was going on here. I don't understand what you're trying to argue here?

what about this one though?

One of the women expelled posted her account here: Yesterday I was removed from the Chicago Dyke March. I am so upset that I'm no longer upset, so here is a faithful narrative of every event.

I wanted to be in public as a gay Jew of Persian and German heritage. Nothing more, nothing less. So I made a shirt that said "Proud Jewish Dyke" and hoisted a big Jewish Pride flag -- a rainbow flag with a Star of David in the center, the centuries-old symbol of the Jewish people. I snapped a picture before the March, and in retrospect my happy, proud smile breaks my heart.

I knew the March was a politically fraught atmosphere, so I went in very carefully. I ignored people side-eyeing me. I stayed away from Palestinian flags and Palestinian chants. I actively walked away from people who directly tried to instigate conflict. I thought maybe if I played by their rules, I could just be Jewish in public.

No such luck. During the picnic in the park, organizers in their official t-shirts began whispering and pointing at me and soon, a delegation came over, announcing they'd been sent by the organizers. They told me my choices were to roll up my Jewish Pride flag or leave. The Star of David makes it look too much like the Israeli flag, they said, and it triggers people and makes them feel unsafe. This was their complaint.

I tried to explain -- no, no! It's the ubiquitous symbol of Judaism. I just want to be Jewish in public. No luck. So I tried using their language. This is an intersectional march, I said. This is my intersection. I'm supposed to be able to celebrate it here. No, they said.

People feel unsafe. I tried again to explain about the Star of David. I tried again to use their language, to tell them that not being able to be visibly, flagrantly, proudly Jewish on my terms makes *me* feel unsafe. This was what I said.

But it didn't work. After some fruitless back-and-forth, during which more people joined the organizers' delegation and used their deeper voices, larger physical size, and greater numbers to insistently talk over my attempts at explanation, at conversation, I recognized a losing battle and left sobbing.

I was thrown out of Dyke March for being Jewish. And yes, there were other Jews there, visible ones even, who weren't accosted, who had fun, even! And yes, Israel exists in a complicated way. But in this case, it doesn't matter what Israel does or doesn't do. This was about being Jewish in public, and I was thrown out for being Jewish, for being the "wrong" kind of Jew, the kind of Jew who shows up with a big Jewish star on a flag. No matter how much I tried to avoid conflict, to explain. Oh, maybe there was a way I could have stayed, but rolling up my beautiful proud flag for them would have been an even bigger loss.

This was my community, where for four years I have shown up, stood up, and helped out, and I am broken-hearted.

(I do not want this to turn into a debate about Israel and Palestine in the comments. That is not what this is about. This is about being Jewish in public. Also, I have made this post public and do not mind sharing done respectfully.)

 

[Cocaloch]

What about this one though?

Frankly, I don't believe that. But assuming it's true than I think it was a mistake, though an understandable one based on what went on here.

 

[boiled goose]

It's hard to be a Zionist and truly inclusive.

Zionism, even if you support an independent Palestine is the equivalent of separate but equal.

 

[kittoo]

Laurel Grauer said she was told to leave the so-called Dyke March "because my flag was a trigger to people that they found offensive".

I dont like this 'triggered' culture. Whatever someone doesnt like, becomes 'offensive' for him/her and he/she is 'triggered' and needs 'safe space'.
If you dont agree with, and until unless its actually offensive, try debate or argument. I dont like banning people just because we dont agree with them.

 

[phanphare]

Frankly, I don't believe that. But assuming it's true than I think it was a mistake, though an understandable one based on what went on here.

I can understand that

It's hard to be a Zionist and truly inclusive.

Zionism, even if you support an independent Palestine is the equivalent of separate but equal.

I agree but what about being Jewish and not being a Zionist?

the Star of David will never not represent the Jewish people as a whole regardless of whether or not Zionism has hijacked its symbols

Also this is an incredibly arbitrary distinction. Regardless of intention people should move away from using the Star of David because of its incredibly strong association with the State of Israel in particular. Just like I'd suggest people that just want to show some kind of ethnic Ulster pride avoid using the Red Hand of Ulster, as opposed to making a political statement, because of its political associations.

nah, this is what I vehemently disagree with and my problem with incidents like this. the Star of David will never not represent the Jewish people. what you're suggesting is like telling Christians to move away from the cross or Muslims to move away from the star and crescent.

 

[Cocaloch]

not all Jews are religious therefore not all Jews wear a yarmulke or tzittzit. also there are many different Judaisms and not every sect wears a yarmulke or tzittzit.

Also this is an incredibly arbitrary distinction. Regardless of intention people should move away from using the Star of David because of its incredibly strong association with the State of Israel in particular. Just like I'd suggest people that just want to show some kind of ethnic Ulster pride avoid using the Red Hand of Ulster, as opposed to making a political statement, because of its political associations.

 

[Alienfan]

I can sympathize with LGBTQ people who wouldn't want religious iconography at a pride event. Religion had historically been the main source of oppression for LGBTQ for centuries, even if it's wrong to ban it, I can see how people would reach that conclusion without necessarily being bigots

 

[The Faceless Master]

still can't believe Rest came back to the thread with zero receipts.









oh wait... yes i can.

 

[Cocaloch]

the Star of David will never not represent the Jewish people as a whole regardless of whether or not Zionism has hijacked its symbols

Unfortunately that's not how symbols, or really communication in general, works. How it's seen is more important that how it's expressed. It's much more possible for an individual to actively chose to avoid symbols with a clear negative alternative meaning to express their point than it is for the person understanding the sign to just know what the signer means.

 

[phanphare]

Unfortunately that's not how symbols, or really communication in general, works. How it's seen is more important that how it's expressed. It's much more possible for an individual to actively chose to avoid symbols with a clear negative alternative meaning to express their point than it is for the person understanding the sign to just know what the signer means.

I added your quote to my previous post and responded to it but I do not agree at all

like I said what you're suggesting would be the equivalent of asking Christians to move away from the cross or Muslims to move away from the star and crescent

 

[Cocaloch]

nah, this is what I vehemently disagree with and my problem with incidents like this. the Star of David will never not represent the Jewish people. what you're suggesting is like telling Christians to move away from the cross or Muslims to move away from the star and crescent.

Neither of those symbols have as specific of an association with a specific political issue as the Star of David, especially if it's positioned exactly like it is on the Israeli flag. Frankly I'd be okay with a group banning either in a march anyway.

I don't understand why my Red Hand of Ulster symbol isn't a fair comparison.

 

[phanphare]

Neither of those symbols have as specific of an association with a specific political issue as the Star of David, especially if it's positioned exactly like it is on the Israeli flag. (Frankly I'd be okay with a group banning either in a march anyway)

I don't understand why my Red Hand of Ulster symbol isn't a fair comparison.

I'll be honest I'm not that familiar with it, is why

I thought that using the main symbols of other religious groups would have been a better comparison. there have been a great many atrocities committed in the name of all 3 of those religions, should they all abandon their symbols because of that?

 

[TestOfTide]

Read the damn thread buddy.

Those who got expelled expressed support for Zionism (a racist ideology that promotes exceptionalism and is responsible for ethnic cleansing and apartheid) and are members of a pink washing group with direct ties to the Israeli state.

This has bugger all to do with their flags.

Honestly, from the quote in the OP, it sounds like one of these so-called "zionists" doesn't actually know what zionism means.

Ms Grauer told the Times: "People asked me if I was a Zionist and I said, 'yes, I do care about the state of Israel, but I also believe in a two-state solution and an independent Palestine.'

I'm guess that Ms Grauer mistakenly thought that Zionism simply meant the belief that Israel has a right to exist.

The notion that a striped flag with a Star of David in more or less the same size and position as on the actual Israeli flag is purely an anodyne expression of Jewish and LGBTQ identity and nothing more is absurdly disingenuous. Come the hell on.

This is the image I see in the article:

This is what the Israeli flag looks like:

Those are absolutely NOT in the same style.

EDIT: Here's the actual flag from the primary source. It's still NOT in the same style as the Israeli flag:

 

[squidyj]

I'm guess that Ms Grauer mistakenly thought that Zionism simply meant the belief that Israel has a right to exist.

I don't think she simply made a mistake, pretty sure she knew exactly what she was doing.

 

[Paskil]

still can't believe Rest came back to the thread with zero receipts.









oh wait... yes i can.

Even if they came back with receipts, it's fucking meaningless. There's a defense force on GAF for everything. At least one person (and I believe several) has been banned for defending ISIS on various things.

 

[God Dayumm]

Neither of those symbols have as specific of an association with a specific political issue as the Star of David, especially if it's positioned exactly like it is on the Israeli flag. Frankly I'd be okay with a group banning either in a march anyway.

I don't understand why my Red Hand of Ulster symbol isn't a fair comparison.

Even then, I would understand why a Pride gathering would not want flags with a cross, so it's fine to ban the star of David as well.

 

[Billy_Pilgrim]

Neither of those symbols have as specific of an association with a specific political issue as the Star of David, especially if it's positioned exactly like it is on the Israeli flag. Frankly I'd be okay with a group banning either in a march anyway.

I don't understand why my Red Hand of Ulster symbol isn't a fair comparison.

The red hand isn't a national (as in nation of peoples) thing in the same way that the star of David is.

You'd have to look at the crucifix, fish or christos for a similar comparison really.

 

[Father_Brain]

Unfortunately that's not how symbols, or really communication in general, works. How it's seen is more important that how it's expressed. It's much more possible for an individual to actively chose to avoid symbols with a clear negative alternative meaning to express their point than it is for the person understanding the sign to just know what the signer means.

Yup.

The entire point of the intersectional/microaggression level of analysis that's become more prevalent on the left in recent years is to get people to think critically about how even seemingly innocuous actions can adversely impact members of marginalized groups. Even if you take Ellie Otra, the woman I quoted, at her word that she didn't mean to convey any message of any kind regarding Zionism or Israel, the gist of her account is basically "I should be able to express my identity as a Jew however I want, regardless of how members of other marginalized groups perceive it, fuck your feelings," which is... not an easy fit with said level of analysis, to say the least.

 

[Cocaloch]

I'll be honest I'm not that familiar with it, is why

Northern Ireland is probably the best comparison available for the Israeli-Palestine situation. Heck the military strategies used in founding Israeli were copied, very intentionally, from the IRA.

I thought that using the main symbols of other religious groups would have been a better comparison. there have been a great many atrocities committed in the name of all 3 of those religions, should they all abandon their symbols because of that?

As I said earlier, I personally would be okay with this logic. But that's not even what's going on here. It's not the star of David as a symbol of Jewishness being rejected here, it's specifically the star of David as the symbol of Zionism, I mean it's on Israel's flag. That's a different, and very specific, issue.

 

[EmiPrime]

I don't think she simply made a mistake, pretty sure she knew exactly what she was doing.

Yep it's just misdirection. She knows a two state solution is not going to happen, it's a meaningless sop to make her position seem softer.

 

[Cocaloch]

The red hand isn't a national (as in nation of peoples) thing in the same way that the star of David is.

Are you sure about that? There are definitely contested understandings of the red hand as symbols for a nationality. For quite some time it was the symbol of an independent nation, and one that understood itself as a people, after all.

Yup.

The entire point of the intersectional/microaggression level of analysis that's become more prevalent on the left in recent years is to get people to think critically about how even seemingly innocuous actions can adversely impact members of marginalized groups. Even if you take Ellie Otra, the woman I quoted, at her word that she didn't mean to convey any message of any kind regarding Zionism or Israel, the gist of her account is basically "I should be able to express my identity as a Jew however I want, regardless of how members of other marginalized groups perceive it, fuck your feelings," which is... not an easy fit with said level of analysis, to say the least.

Yup, the problem is, like pretty much everything else out of critical theory, is that instead of being used as a critical tool, these ideas are used as an excuse to turn off our brains and come to childish conclusions.

These are useful tools, but we need to use them better.

 

[Father_Brain]

EDIT: Here's the actual flag from the primary source. It's still NOT in the same style as the Israeli flag:

lol, the star in that photo is entirely blue, for god's sake. But sure, it has nothing to do with Israel, it's just a coincidence that they chose that color to superimpose on top of the rainbow.

 

[Billy_Pilgrim]

Are you sure about that? There are definitely contested understandings of the red hand as symbols for a nationality. For quite some time it was the symbol of an independent nation, and one that understood itself as a people, after all.

Star of David is an international thing and has a much deeper ingrained history with regards to the disapora. In fact I'd argue that the Eire flag is closer than the Red Hand. Red Hand is like the flag of Northumbria or something.

 

[NullPointer]

unsafe?

 

[phanphare]

lol, the star in that photo is entirely blue, for god's sake. But sure, it has nothing to do with Israel, it's just a coincidence that they chose that color to superimpose on top of the rainbow.

I mean, I get that a blue Star of David in the middle of a flag could be seen as relating to the state of Israel

but the color blue is used throughout Judaism and does not just relate to the Israeli flag

like, if you were to go to Party City or something and buy Jewish decorations they'd likely be a mix of white, silver, and blue

another case where Zionism has hijacked aspects of Judaism and generally tainted them for a lot of people, which is fucked

 

[TTOOLL]

It blows my mind when marginalized groups knock each other down like this

It doesn't blow mine, really. It's just human nature, the only distinction is the hypocrisy level of each one.

unsafe?

yeah lol

 

[Father_Brain]

I'm guess that Ms Grauer mistakenly thought that Zionism simply meant the belief that Israel has a right to exist.

A Wider Bridge refuses to take any position of any kind criticizing any action or policy by the Israeli government. Their nominal support for a two-state solution is a completely meaningless fig leaf to obscure what they really are, which is a reactionary, pro-status-quo organization.

If you claim to support a two-state solution but refuse to actually call out anything Israel has done/is doing to prevent it from ever coming about, you don't actually support a two-state solution.

 

[Cocaloch]

Star of David is an international thing and has a much deeper ingrained history with regards to the disapora.

For reasons that cannot ever be disentangled from Zionism. That's the problem right? I mean I understand and empathize with people that want to just be able to see it as a symbol of Jewishness, but that option has been taken from you. Blame the Zionists, not the people who have to interpret the symbol.

In fact I'd argue that the Eire flag is closer than the Red Hand.

What? This makes no sense. The Irish flag would be analogous to the Palestinian one. Besides the whole point of the Irish flag is that the Irish state is not ethnic. The better example would be the British Flag, which immediately runs into the exact same problem as the Irish flag.

Red Hand is like the flag of Northumbria or something.

No it's not. You should check out the sides of buildings in the North sometime. The Red Hand is absolutely still an issue, and a major symbol of nationality.

 

[psyfi]

This is all very complicated and unfortunate, but I can't say I blame them. I'm not saying it was the right call, but I get that they're trying to keep out the violence and Islamophobia associated with Israel.

 

[Cocaloch]

It doesn't blow mine, really. It's just human nature, the only distinction is the hypocrisy level of each one.

This is disingenuous, and you and every person posting something similar should feel bad about it.

 

[Cocaloch]

I mean, I get that a blue Star of David in the middle of a flag could be seen as relating to the state of Israel

but the color blue is used throughout Judaism and does not just relate to the Israeli flag

like, if you were to go to Party City or something and buy Jewish decorations they'd likely be a mix of white, silver, and blue

another case where Zionism has hijacked aspects of Judaism and generally tainted them for a lot of people, which is fucked

Again if someone did it without thinking, that'd be one thing. But that is absolutely not what happened here.