ExplodingKetchup
Member
Can people just chill???
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Chicago gay pride parade expels Star of David flags
- Thread starter phanphare
- Start date
I don't decide anything. The Star of David has been a Jewish symbol for hundreds of years, long before the state of Israel exsisted. The fact your even trying to argue it's not a Jewish symbol just shows how little you know.
All I said was the Israeli flag is going to have the Star of David on it because it's was founded as a Jewish country. I am not here to get into that argument I was just pointing out the obvious reason for the Star of David being on the flag.
My argument pertains to the Star of David, not the Israeli flag.
Yeah you'll also find it on a lot of things, as well as on its own.
That it's not black and fucking White like you make it out to be. If someone wants to promote thier Jewishness as well as their sexuality they should be allowed to. Just because you misinterprete something doesn't give you the right to get rid of it.
I see how you could have gotten that. What I've been focused on is how other people understand your communication. I think most people would understand attempts to distance yourself (and the symbol!) from Zionist implications by subverting it like I mentioned.
I would agree with this. My general point has been people generally just need to be aware of how other people will understand the symbols we put out.
Right, and I don't think anyone outside of actual anti-semites wants that.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
I went through to the start of that comment chain and to be honest it just makes you seem ill equipped to parse the point that was actually being made.
There was also no significant push that a minority person can't be bigoted.
yeah ok I do think we are seeing eye to eye now, maybe I was just misreading your posts
that's why I kept bringing up the other religions and their respective symbols by the way
Zionism is some shit, take it from a Jew. just like they go to great lengths to link anti-Zionism with anti-semitism (which is really problematic in many ways) they also go to great lengths to link Zionism and Judaism (which is also really problematic in many ways). it actually fosters anti-semitism while at the same time muffling criticism of anti-semitism in a boy who cried wolf type of way.
Absolutely. Being Jewish doesn't automatically mean a person supports Israel's militaristic tactics. The Star of David predates the 1800's. The historical context is broader than just Israel.
At UCLA a Jewish student was questioned regarding potential zionism when no evidence was put forth other than her activity in the community, which had nothing to do with Israel. Jewish people shouldn't be asked explain themselves unless there is hard proof that they are uncritical of Israel and you have evidence of them personally supporting the deaths of innocent children in Palestine.
This certainly isn't a one to one comparison but, it's like if I wore a Black Power fist and someone asks me if I support Nation of Islam. That type of question is completely unacceptable unless there was proof that I was somehow affiliated with that group.
If there is proof that an organization is supporting something, that's one thing but, to question Jewish individuals who wear that symbol and then say well it's always zionism, that's absurd. In this case an organization may have ties to Israel in a certain capacity but again I don't think a Jewish person off the street has to offer any explanation for why they wear the star of david.
You seem to fundamentally misunderstand what I've been saying in this thread. Please point to the place where I said it's not a Jewish symbol. Alternatively reread the post you're quoting here. But you absolutely are declaring that the symbol is first and foremost something. That's a decisions you're making. While I'm sure others would agree, it's a lot less correct that simply saying the Star of David is a symbol of Jewishness which I'm sure every poster on this board is aware of.
I mean I'm aware of why it's on the flag. Calling Israel a Jewish country without qualifying that is problematic to say the best.
Okay.
And if you present it a different way then that will affect how people read it.
I think this is pretty funny. You seem to be the one operating in binary terms here. You're making a claim about what the symbol means. I'm making claims about the symbol having multiple meanings and looking at how multiple people think of something.
I think people holding an event should have the right to tell people not to bring certain symbols that might associate the event with certain political causes they might not want the event to be associated with.
Regardless of the intention, and here the intention is explicitly Zionist, seeing it as Zionist is a fully plausible reading of this flag.
The person in the OP's story was explicitly a Zionist. So it's a bit ironic to complain about lack of critical thought and miss that key detail.
Also I'm not sure what's up with the, frankly bizarre, appeal to history I've been seeing throughout this thread. Do you really think most people are unaware that the star of David predates Israel?
What is happening to Pride this year?
It feels like all these groups that are pro- and anti- every other possible intersection of identity are trying to hijack it as their own.
Yes intersectionality is a thing, but at every turn it feels like it's the LGBT section that is being overridden and drowned out by all the other, louder sections.
It feels like all these groups that are pro- and anti- every other possible intersection of identity are trying to hijack it as their own.
Yes intersectionality is a thing, but at every turn it feels like it's the LGBT section that is being overridden and drowned out by all the other, louder sections.
I discussed that so, I don't understand why you are acting as if I didn't. And I was providing further context.
So, taking this further than this incident. Should Jewish people be questioned if they wear that star without any other evidence? And should this story even be linked with Pride and the LGBTQ community at large just because this was an isolated incident?
This entire conversation is starting off on the wrong foot.
jackissocool
Member
They were spreading Zionism, which is a message of hate.
I searched through this entire thread and did not see you deal with that. Especially not in the post where you just called this antisemitism.
Unless you mean that bit you edited in after my post.
Silent Chief
Member
What's pinkwashing? I got this Simpsons episode I can't get out of my mind now.
I am saying the Star of David was created, and is used by many, seperatly from Israeli. It is and has been a symbol of Judaism since its incarnation. I will stand whole heartedly by my statement that it is first and foremost a Jewish symbol.
I am discussing the Star of David, not the state of Israel. That is for a different time, different place.
But if people read it wrong that is there problem. I am not trying to argue it's use here, I am just talking in general. Jewish people should not have to explain themselves for wearing Star of David.
And I am arguing that it's wrong to expect people of the Jewish religion to ever question or be ashamed of the Star of David.
That's a pretty slippery slope.
Fair enough. Doesn't make the Star of David a Zionist symbol.
Using a good record on some kinds of human rights to cover up abuses elsewhere, particularly feminism or queer friendliness.
The state of Israel does this pretty notably, but so do most other Western liberal democracies.
excelsiorlef
Member
Ummm there's no other... they are all queer folk
But why? That's my point.
I think there is a degree of truth here, but if you don't want to be associated with Zionism you should avoid flying a flag that's essentially just a mix of the Israeli flag and the pride flag.
It's not surprising someone wanting to communicate a zionist intent would go with a symbol like this.
Reading the flag of the person in the OP as Zionist is quite reasonable.
I think there are situations where it's warranted, I also certainly agree there are plenty of situations where no one should feel shame about it.
Is it? I mean this is the way the associations work in general. I'm actually surprised that you think this is odd. I'm not asking for something new here.
I think the problem here is that you want the symbol to be one thing. That's not what symbols are. It absolutely is a Zionist symbol sometimes.
No, not before the edit. I pretty much detailed the organization is broader terms, you just glossed over it.
To state clearly, it's antisemitism to declare the star of david a symbol of zionism just because an organization has certain affiliations with the state because it has a broader scope than just with than Israel.
You've been borderline combative and almost obtuse with many interactions that I've seen in this thread and I don't understand it.
I gave my assessment on the reactions, and talked about the weight on minorities at large so, I guess that's it for me.
Father_Brain
Banned
And even the other woman I quoted who told her story on Facebook, who at least claims that her flag wasn't intended to convey any message about Israel or Zionism, admits that (a) she wasn't kicked out for her Jewish identity; (b) she wasn't kicked out for expressing her Jewish identity publicly; and (c) that she was told repeatedly that the specific manner in which she chose to publicly express her Jewish identity was antagonizing other people at the Dyke March, and nonetheless chose to die on that hill and paint herself as a persecuted victim rather than engage in any reflection on why said specific manner antagonized people in a way that other expressions of Jewish identity didn't.
What this amounts to is basically "fuck your feelings, I'll express myself however I want to." Which is certainly a sentiment that many people share, but let's not pretend there's anything intersectional about it.
I read through all of your posts for a third time, and I'm still not seeing it. You spent most of the thread talking about a situation where there were no links with Zionism.
If a Zionist flies a symbol that could be interpreted as pro-Zionist or not, I'm going to lean more towards thinking its the former than the later when compared to anyone else. I'm also not sure how it's antisemitic, since the understanding here is predicated on the person's Zionism not their Judaism.
I think I've been pretty fair minded. Especially with everyone that wants to discuss this. That being said, I will call out shit post value judgement. For instance the people I called out as knee jerk cries of antisemitism being the only explanation, conveniently ignoring, though more likely just never having read about, the person in the OP being a Zionist.
Such as
But that wasn't it for you. You said other things that I took issue with. That's fine, but I think it's also fine for me to push you on those.
Silent Chief
Member
Using a good record on some kinds of human rights to cover up abuses elsewhere, particularly feminism or queer friendliness.
The state of Israel does this pretty notably, but so do most other Western liberal democracies.
That's a pretty crazy example.
Canadian Arms Sales are governed by United Sales laws which dictates who Canada can export to. There are exactly 40 countries Canada is authorized to sell weapons to.
Canada sells a licensed derivative of a Swiss Light Armored Vehicle.
It's not used to behead anyone. It's potentially used in Yemen, but that's a completely different story. That's a proxy war between SA and Iran and it's not like Canada gets to mediate or even pick a side here.
So, you're saying Israel sponsors LGBT festivities around the world to compensate for it's human right record against the Palestinians?
Father_Brain
Banned
To divert the conversation away from its human rights abuses, yes, absolutely. Without question.
This is where I would argue, however, that the discrimination was to do with her being Jewish and choosing to display that in a legitimate manner, which is where the crux of our disagreement lies.
Perhaps this is where we might have to agree to disagree. Just as successful communication occurs between two or more parties, so must all of those involved (the communicator and the recipient) acknowledge their responsibility in successful miscommunication.
I think this is where Jewish people would feel upset at the insinuation that displaying the Star of David is an illegitimate representation of Jewish identity, or that it is illegitimate for Jewish people to claim the Star of David as an inherently Jewish symbol. Perhaps I completely misunderstand your argument however.
Isn't that a standard not upheld to many other countries? Edit: Admittedly, this is all beside the point of this more immediate discussion.
I thought it was called that for technicians that use diagonal pliers
This thread has been very depressing to read in seeing so clearly that people will not find out details before they simply make an off-the-cuff judgement and walk off. From the terrible OP, to the poor reporting by the BBC, to the driveby posts from gaffers who can't be bothered informing themselves. It seems people only read the deliberately inaccurate title and that's it.
if you think the OP is terrible I apologize. I tried to present the situation as neutral as possible and I have always seen BBC as a reputable news source which is why I chose to use their article title as the thread title with no changes and to post quotes from the article with no other commentary
Father_Brain
Banned
I'm Jewish and proudly non-Zionist. Please don't tell me what I should and shouldn't be upset about. We're not a hive mind.
Anyway, my point is not about any and all uses of the Star of David, or what is and isn't "legitimate," but rather that - whatever one's intent - it is not reasonable to expect, let alone demand, that a flag like this one be interpreted solely as an expression of individual identity and not of anything to do with Israel or Zionism.
That depends on if you define Zionism by its stated goal or the acts committed by some in the name of Zionism. Much like Communism (and Capitalism), the ideologies themselves are pretty benign, while acts carried out in their name can be anything but.
I'll freely admit I am 100% uniformed on this particular group. That said, using your own words, they support a two state solution, yet you consider that support nominal because they do not condemn actions by Israel that impede a two-state solution. Is that not similar logic to those that suggest that if a Muslim group or person commits a terrorist act, any Muslim who does not vehemently condemn the action tacitly endorses it?
With respect, the second paragraph comes off as flat-out opinion without substantiation so I cannot take any of that as a given fact. If the group has spoken against equal rights for Palestinians, the two-state solution, or has taken action in a similar fashion, that would be another story completely.
I'm not arguing that either. I think the (mis)understanding is reasonable. What I disagree with is the action taken on the basis of that understanding.
Edit: Based on what I've posted below, maybe I am arguing that!
Double edit: I think the most coherent position I can come to is that it is reasonable to affiliate the Star of David with Israel and Zionist movements but not to consider that every instance of the Star of David is therefore an implicit promotion of that cause.
Who the heck has said that? There are going to be people from all walks of life that are going to be bigots, racist, homophobic, sexist, _____ist ect.
Your post just comes across as pandering to GAF.
BBC is incredibly biased and ever more unprofessional. Not that I disagree with this particular instance.
MugiwaraCole
Member
I seriously doubt anyone with half a brain has ever said this.
Minorities can't really be things such as racists since that requires a level of power and privilege they'll never have, but we can absolutely be bigoted.
oh ok well never mind then
either way I think the quotes in the OP are fine, though I'm obviously the OP so maybe I'm biased, but I posted quotes from one of the woman who was told to leave and her take and the organization that told her to leave and their take.
What I find alerting about that statement is the accusation that the women had Israeli flags superimposed on the LGBT flag. Based on the imagery I can find of the flags they used (which might be inaccurate) they differ significantly from the Israeli flag, and I think the elision between the Star of David and the Israeli flag is unfounded at best and actively harmful at worst.
Edit: To formalise this more thoroughly, the "Star of David" is not "a symbol of Judaism" which is not "the Israeli flag" which is not "a symbol of Zionism". Certainly the Star of David is often considered a symbol of Judaism and is featured in the Israeli flag, and certainly both it and the Israeli flag are used frequently in Zionist media. But not all symbols of Judaism feature the Star of David, nor is the Israeli flag reducible to it, and nor is every instance of the Star of David a symbol of Zionism.
To argue otherwise is like saying that painting the Union Jack in purple and green produces a British flag!
Edit: To formalise this more thoroughly, the "Star of David" is not "a symbol of Judaism" which is not "the Israeli flag" which is not "a symbol of Zionism". Certainly the Star of David is often considered a symbol of Judaism and is featured in the Israeli flag, and certainly both it and the Israeli flag are used frequently in Zionist media. But not all symbols of Judaism feature the Star of David, nor is the Israeli flag reducible to it, and nor is every instance of the Star of David a symbol of Zionism.
To argue otherwise is like saying that painting the Union Jack in purple and green produces a British flag!
ok thanks I have added that to the OP along with the facebook post from one of the other women who was asked to leave
Rest
All these years later I still chuckle at what a fucking moron that guy is.
Dude Abides
Banned
Uh, your example of someone saying minorities can't be bigots is a guy who explicitly said minorities can be bigots. Is this some kind of meta trolling?
Psychoward
Banned
Haha holy fucking shit
Look Israel is garbage but they banned all Jewish flags with the rainbow not just the ones from the Israeli group. Which basically means you're trying to draw an equivalence from neo-nazis to jews.
Thank you. Sorry for being a bit harsh with you earlier.
You're taking their word for it?
the woman from a wider bridge largely confirms that those events took place. That she was approached, that there were other anti-zionist jewish people involved and that the conversation was about her zionism.
She then goes on to assert that she was asked to leave because of her flag but even her own telling fails to support that.
I don't know enough about these women or the group they are a part of. I am not addressing them. I am addressing some of the conversations going on in this thread.
There is a disturbing amount of anti-semitism going on in here and I don't necessarily think it is intentional, but it is here.
First, there is the debate about Zionism. Growing up, that word meant simply the belief in a state of Israel. So you can imagine my confusion when reading this thread it is being treated as a dirty word here, a word that has some deeper, crueler meaning.
I even looked it up to make sure I wasn't crazy... and I'm not. The term is used for a variety of beliefs but all of them have the central idea of there being a Jewish state somewhere. Whether that be Argentina or Palestine, or wherever, the basic idea of Zionism is just that Jews have a safe space somewhere in the world. Then off of that there are various differing beliefs in Zionism. But the word is not one narrowly defined thing.
Then there is the Star of David or....the Jewish Star
. Now I'm being told that it is supposed to represent this oppressive interpretation of Zionism and anybody putting it on a flag must be aware that others will view it as this oppressive version of Zionism. This is as ridiculous as yelling at anybody waving an American flag and telling them that they must support the mass genocide and stealing of American Indian land, the continued wars in the middle east, the systemic oppression of black people, the myriad of other awful things America has done or may be doing right now. You can love or support a country and have issues with it at the same time. This is not a complicated idea.
So a common phrase that was used to represent support for a state of Israel is now a narrowly defined oppressive ideal. And the Star of David, an old and common symbol of Judaism (even used to oppress Jews at times!) can easily be misinterpreted as a micro aggression, something to be avoided and not waved around lest you offend.
To the people arguing these points - you are actively promoting the destruction of common Jewish terms and symbols. You are actively spreading this notion that this is what these things mean. So whether you believe it or not you are actively spreading anti-semitism, because you have bought into and are promoting this notion that these symbols of Judaism or support for a Jewish state should by default be viewed as negative and oppressive. It's a pretty short line from "you can't put that star on a flag" to "you can't wear that star around your neck".
In some places, Jews used to hide their religion from others for fear of persecution. Then they were forced to display it to make sure everybody knew how to treat them. Now some in this thread are stating how they are supposed to show their Judaism properly. How about you just let Jews decide that on their own?
So again, not saying I support these women or agree with whatever they believe, but as is usual on gaf, they were not the entire discussion going on in this thread. There was something bigger going on and I felt I had to address it.
There is a disturbing amount of anti-semitism going on in here and I don't necessarily think it is intentional, but it is here.
First, there is the debate about Zionism. Growing up, that word meant simply the belief in a state of Israel. So you can imagine my confusion when reading this thread it is being treated as a dirty word here, a word that has some deeper, crueler meaning.
I even looked it up to make sure I wasn't crazy... and I'm not. The term is used for a variety of beliefs but all of them have the central idea of there being a Jewish state somewhere. Whether that be Argentina or Palestine, or wherever, the basic idea of Zionism is just that Jews have a safe space somewhere in the world. Then off of that there are various differing beliefs in Zionism. But the word is not one narrowly defined thing.
Then there is the Star of David or....the Jewish Star
but really the Magen Daveed
So a common phrase that was used to represent support for a state of Israel is now a narrowly defined oppressive ideal. And the Star of David, an old and common symbol of Judaism (even used to oppress Jews at times!) can easily be misinterpreted as a micro aggression, something to be avoided and not waved around lest you offend.
To the people arguing these points - you are actively promoting the destruction of common Jewish terms and symbols. You are actively spreading this notion that this is what these things mean. So whether you believe it or not you are actively spreading anti-semitism, because you have bought into and are promoting this notion that these symbols of Judaism or support for a Jewish state should by default be viewed as negative and oppressive. It's a pretty short line from "you can't put that star on a flag" to "you can't wear that star around your neck".
In some places, Jews used to hide their religion from others for fear of persecution. Then they were forced to display it to make sure everybody knew how to treat them. Now some in this thread are stating how they are supposed to show their Judaism properly. How about you just let Jews decide that on their own?
So again, not saying I support these women or agree with whatever they believe, but as is usual on gaf, they were not the entire discussion going on in this thread. There was something bigger going on and I felt I had to address it.
ExplodingKetchup
Member
Siiiiigh
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nothing here has happened by default but rather by instances of groups like a wider bridge using the lgbtq community, using these symbols as a shield for the state of israel to deflect from criticism of how it treats palestinians among others. It has happened through material such as this.
Not that I am disagreeing with what you say but that's a copy of a story from the Jerusalem post. Not something written by that group afaik.
Also things can be complicated. There is truth to the fact that LGBT can exist in Israel and are not persecuted as they would be in the areas around Israel.
A LGBT group in Israel doesn't have to stand for everything. They can stand for LGBT and not be forced to say things about other issues.
You can be against police brutality in The USA and not have to also say things about a myrid of other issues and I am not sure you will be called out on it.
Zionism is belief in a Jewish state. I support Israel and also want the Palestinians to have their own state to call home and also want to make sure that my family doesn't have to fear terrorism.
It's a huge jumble of issues. Do other LGBT organizations have to support every cause?
MistakenMobius
Member
But then they couldn't nag every Jewish person: are u supporting Israel Apartheid?
The resurgence of anti-semitism on the left is really strange especially when combining it with crackpot conspiracy theory.