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[phanphare]

That's not a recent developement, the jews have been for the left what muslims are for the alt right since at least the 90s.

It's completely fucked up. You tell people you're a jew or have one single jewish grandparent and next thing you know you have to defend yourself for whatever bullshit is happening in Israel.

This happened all to often when I was moving through the german Punk Rock / radical left / squatter scene in my teens and early 20s.

it is frightening for sure

things that happen to Jews on the left would be shouted down by those same leftists if the right were responsible

I remember when Trump tweeted out some anti-semitic bullshit and his excuse was to say that the star of david was a sheriff's star.

so that's a sheriff's star

and this is an Israeli/Zionist star

 

[Chmpocalypse]

this really feels like a "my best friend is Jewish!" retort. you're superimposing the opinion of some other Jews to somehow give the point you're making more legitimacy. this is also part of the problem.

Sounds to me like you're dismissing the poster's point because it's inconvenient for your argument.

 

[Glix]

So the Star of David necklace I received for my Bar Mitzvah now represents aggressive Zionism and I should be ashamed to wear the symbol of my religion? You can fuck right off with that.

The cross has been used as a symbol for all kinds of bullshit and I have never seen a Christian shamed for wearing one.

 

[phanphare]

Sounds to me like you're dismissing the poster's point because it's inconvenient for your argument.

no I just didn't like that that poster was hiding behind the opinion of some other Jews as if to say "look, these are Jews and they think this! so now you know it's legitimate because they were Jews!"

that's a bad look in any context

 

[Demoskinos]

You'd think gay people would know better than to use that justification (given how much it's been used an excuse to be terrible towards them), but... nope. Fucking hell.

Pretty much. Sad to see this happen.

 

[excelsiorlef]

here's a question

does carrying around that flag make it ok for others to subjugate those people to varying forms of harassment?

edit: read the facebook post linked in the OP and tell me whether or not that should have happened

If it happened exactly as she says no it should not have

I think there is an issue with unclear narrative.

To me it sounded like it was a group of 3 people. Not 3 separate incidents.

I do think the star being blue makes a difference as well (which you also acknowledged)

Also A Wider Bridge bring involved also muddies up the waters.

It's clear to me that no one really has a clear vision of the story

 

[haimon]

What "pretty much everybody" in the Middle East wants is a free Palestine rather than the rat cage that Israel has confined West Bank and Gaza inhabitants to. I've been to Palestine and talked about Israel with many people there and nobody wanted to "destroy Israel". Many even understood the reality of having to live together. What they wanted though, is for Israel to give them their rightful freedom back, something the Zionist movement is fiercely against.

Bullshit.

All the countries could not give less of a fuck bout the Palestinians.
They use the Palestinians plight as a crutch for a ton of different things but never really care about the people themselves.

 

[RangerX]

european nation states did not steal lands? there was no ethnical and religious discrimination in the UK against the irish?
or let's take germany and poland. Poland gets partitioned at the end of the XVIII century, then the prussians/germans in the XIX century occupy most of the leading role in society and try to impose their language. then after WW2 germans were brutally expelled and their properties confiscated. Both sides would have good points for demanding a return to the "their" land.

The French and Germans have lived in those areas for centuries long before the modern state as we know it. Their respective states do not currently privilege one religion or ethnicity over another. Likewise in the case of the Irish, and I am Irish, the discrimination wasn't state sponsored. No one will apologize for the monstrous history of colonization European countries carried out. The Palestinians had lived on those for generations before they were forcibly removed.

 

[Ryuuroden]

no I just didn't like that that poster was hiding behind the opinion of some other Jews as if to say "look, these are Jews and they think this! so now you know it's legitimate because they were Jews!"

that's a bad look in any context

Exactly, its like arguing whatever uncle tom nonsense ben Carson argues about other black people is legit cause he's black

 

[Father_Brain]

What were the other ways that these people expressed their Jewish identity?

I wasn't there, but even one of the women expelled admits that other "visibly Jewish" participants were welcomed. As I said above: tallit, kippot, T-shirts, literally anything that doesn't involve waving around a big Star of David flag resembling the Israeli one.

 

[phanphare]

If it happened exactly as she says no it should not have

I think there is an issue with unclear narrative.

To me it sounded like it was a group of 3 people. Not 3 separate incidents.

I do think the star being blue makes a difference as well (which you also acknowledged)

Also A Wider Bridge bring involved also muddies up the waters.

It's clear to me that no one really has a clear vision of the story

there is certainly an unclear narrative going on with both the Wider Bridge and the Dyke March given both of their statements

that's why automatically linking Judaism with Israel is so problematic and that's the main issue that concerns me because in recent years it's become a free pass to discriminate and that's not ok. you can't just automatically link Judaiam and Jewish symbols to Israel.

in what other scenario would it be ok to harass a member of a certain minority group about the actions of others within their group and make them prove themselves?

 

[excelsiorlef]

no I just didn't like that that poster was hiding behind the opinion of some other Jews as if to say "look, these are Jews and they think this! so now you know it's legitimate because they were Jews!"

that's a bad look in any context

That's not what I was saying at all.

The reality is the debate about this incident is whether it was anti-semetic or more just, for the lack of a better term here, anti-Zionist.

I felt it important to highlight that there were Jewish people involved in the organization of the march and in taking the intiative on the flag issue. It's just important to acknowledge there were Jewish people on both sides of the issue.

Exactly, its like arguing whatever uncle tom nonsense ben Carson argues about other black people is legit cause he's black

But sorry this isn't a Ben Carson type event. There is a lot more nuance here then that and all I was saying is Jewish people were actively involved on both sides.

 

[Father_Brain]

here's a question

does carrying around that flag make it ok for others to subjugate those people to varying forms of harassment?

edit: read the facebook post linked in the OP and tell me whether or not that should have happened

Who was harassed and how? No one has claimed that they were subjected to violence or anti-Semitic epithets. They were told that their flags were making others uncomfortable and why.

Being told why something you're doing is problematic is not harassment.

 

[RangerX]

People keep pointing out to you that it was a blue star of David, which is explicitly tied to Israel, on the flag and that's why they were asked to leave. You keep talking about a broader point and not actually looking at the facts of the situation. Other Jewish people were welcomed.

Edit: forgot to quote Phanphare lol

 

[phanphare]

Who was harassed and how? No one has claimed that they were subjected to violence or anti-Semitic epithets. They were told that their flags were making others uncomfortable and why.

Being told why something you're doing is problematic is not harassment.

ha·rass·ment
həˈrasmənt,ˈherəsmənt
noun
aggressive pressure or intimidation.

harassment does not have to involve violence

But it didn't work. After some fruitless back-and-forth, during which more people joined the organizers' delegation and used their deeper voices, larger physical size, and greater numbers to insistently talk over my attempts at explanation, at conversation, I recognized a losing battle and left sobbing.

That's not what I was saying at all.

The reality is the debate about this incident is whether it was anti-semetic or more just, for the lack of a better term here, anti-Zionist.

I felt it important to highlight that there were Jewish people involved in the organization of the march and in taking the intiative on the flag issue. It's just important to acknowledge there were Jewish people on both sides of the issue.

but you said it. you were using the opinions of some individual Jews to legitimize your angle. I didn't like it then and I will continue not to like it, I hope you can understand that.

the Jewish people are an extremely diverse group of people who live in many different countries throughout the world, practice varying forms of religion or none at all, and hold a wide variety of views and opinions. it is not shocking to find out that different Jews hold different opinions on a certain topic.

 

[excelsiorlef]

there is certainly an unclear narrative going on with both the Wider Bridge and the Dyke March given both of their statements

that's why automatically linking Judaism with Israel is so problematic and that's the main issue that concerns me because in recent years it's become a free pass to discriminate and that's not ok. you can't just automatically link Judaiam and Jewish symbols to Israel.

in what other scenario would it be ok to harass a member of a certain minority group about the actions of others within their group and make them prove themselves?

I'll be honest given that the March claim was we asked them to leave for being pro-Zionist (I wish there was a better word but we'll just have to roll with it for now) amd it turned out that a) at least one of them was actually a very active member of a pro-Zionist group and b) it seems most if not all the flags in question had blue stars which is basically a much stronger link to Israel than just Judaism. I'm inclined to believe the incident was closer to the claims made by the Dyke March.

It's also worth noting that the Dyke March also banned US flags so it's not just Israel iconography that they don't want in their march.

 

[Kumquat]

Sigh. it always comes back to hating on us Jews. It's like the always in thing.

 

[Rock And Roll]

I tried to type out a long post detailing my thoughts but I don't think there's a point. I will say this, as others have briefly touched on. As a Jewish person, we are in a very unique situation now where we face discrimination from both the right and the "left". I have mentioned I am Jewish and automatically the assumption is you support the abhorrent acts of Israel and you have a picture of Netanyahu framed on the dresser beside your bed. We aren't welcome on either "side" so instead we are "moderates" (or as I like to call us, sane).

Who was harassed and how? No one has claimed that they were subjected to violence or anti-Semitic epithets. They were told that their flags were making others uncomfortable and why.

Being told why something you're doing is problematic is not harassment.

Hogwash. If someone is told to stop speaking Arabic on a plane because "it makes other passengers feel uncomfortable" there would be immense public push back (rightfully so). We've seen situations like that before and it is nonsense when it happens. Telling people that their Star of David flags makes them uncomfortable is discrimination. Yes, I read the thread. Yes, the story is murky and has become a he said-she said affair. Doesn't change the fact I can tell you first hand we Jews still face discrimination from the "left" who continue to pretend everything is hunky dory over here.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Jews still face discrimination from the "left" who continue to pretend everything is hunky dory over here.

Agreed on this absolutely

 

[Dude Abides]

Hogwash. If someone is told to stop speaking Arabic on a plane because "it makes other passengers feel uncomfortable" there would be immense public push back (rightfully so). We've seen situations like that before and it is nonsense when it happens. Telling people that their Star of David flags makes them uncomfortable is discrimination. Yes, I read the thread. Yes, the story is murky and has become a he said-she said affair. Doesn't change the fact I can tell you first hand we Jews still face discrimination from the "left" who continue to pretend everything is hunky dory over here.

This is a terrible analogy. They were not told to stop speaking Yiddish or Hebrew. They were not told to remove kippahs. They were told that their flags were not welcome because they are perceived as a symbol of a political ideology that runs counter to the political aims of marchers. Pro-Israel partisans are going to have to find a new tactic to silence criticism because their attempts to paint political disagreement as ethnic bigotry are finding less and less purchase.

 

[Father_Brain]

This is a terrible analogy. They were not told to stop speaking Yiddish or Hebrew. They were not told to remove kippahs. They were told that their flags were not welcome because they are perceived as a symbol of a political ideology that runs counter to the political aims of marchers. Pro-Israel partisans are going to have to find a new tactic to silence criticism because their attempts to paint political disagreement as ethnic bigotry are finding less and less purchase.

Yup.

Again, absolutely no one was expelled purely on the basis of a Jewish identity or purely on the basis of expressing a Jewish identity publicly. Even the women who were expelled aren't claiming that.

 

[Rock And Roll]

This is a terrible analogy. They were not told to stop speaking Yiddish or Hebrew. They were not told to remove kippahs. They were told that their flags were not welcome because they are perceived as a symbol of a political ideology that runs counter to the political aims of marchers. Pro-Israel partisans are going to have to find a new tactic to silence criticism because their attempts to paint political disagreement as ethnic bigotry are finding less and less purchase.

Yeah, no. I'm from Canada, we had a big debate on whether women should be allowed to wear Niqabs on their passports/driver licenses/health cards etc... People who were for a ban would claim some bullshit about it being nefarious and go to lengths to tie it in extremism. It mirrors this situation well except the conservatives were bullying the minorities. This time we've another group trying to shut down Jewish people trying to display the Star of David.

 

[Dude Abides]

Yeah, no. I'm from Canada, we had a big debate on whether women should be allowed to wear Niqabs on their passports/driver licenses/health cards etc... People who were for a ban would claim some bullshit about it being nefarious and go to lengths to tie it in extremism. It mirrors this situation well except the conservatives were bullying the minorities. This time we've another group trying to shut down Jewish people trying to display the Star of David.

Yeah, yeah. That has nothing to do with this situation, which involved political symbols at a political event. The reason they were asked to leave is that the march organizers viewed their flags as pro-Zionist symbols. You can argue that the organizers' interpretation of the flag was unreasonable (tough to do considering this website), or I suppose you can argue that the march organizers were wrong to oppose pro-Zionist messages in the march (also tough to do since it's long been a lefty march that includes an anti-colonial message).

What you can't do, if you expect to be taken seriously, is pretend that they were asked to leave simply because they were carrying symbols of Jewish identity. This isn't particularly hard to understand, but I suppose pro-Israel people have conflated criticism of Israel with anti-semitism for so long that it's simply an unthinking reflex at this point.

 

[Jotaka]

well done for the asshole that decided decades ago complete muddy religion, ethnic group and state as a single one issue to confuse people and call anything that criticize it as anti-semite.

 

[AuthenticM]

I wish GAF had some feature that let us mark users in some capacity. I would use that feature to help me remember who posts on point shit.

Dude Abides would be high on that list.

 

[gerg]

I wasn't there, but even one of the women expelled admits that other "visibly Jewish" participants were welcomed. As I said above: tallit, kippot, T-shirts, literally anything that doesn't involve waving around a big Star of David flag resembling the Israeli one.

I guess a more pointed question is whether other people were displaying Stars of David (such as on jewelry) and were allowed to do so.

 

[Father_Brain]

I guess a more pointed question is whether other people were displaying Stars of David (such as on jewelry) and were allowed to do so.

If anyone had been blocked from doing that, I'm sure the anti-Dyke March camp would be shouting about it at the top of their lungs. (And if that had happened, they'd be right to do so for once, because that actually would have been anti-Semitic.)

 

[glow]

Official statement from Dyke March Collective:

https://chicagodykemarchcollective....-on-2017-march-and-solidarity-with-palestine/

 

[phanphare]

Official statement from Dyke March Collective:

https://chicagodykemarchcollective....-on-2017-march-and-solidarity-with-palestine/

I will add this link to the OP

 

[haimon]

I just don't understand how a pro LGBT group can be pro Palestine?

They would be banned and persecuted in either Palestinians territories at best.

It boggles my mind.

 

[Jag]

I just don't understand how a pro LGBT group can be pro Palestine?

They would be banned and persecuted in either Palestinians territories at best.

It boggles my mind.

It's not the repressive and corrupt Palestinian government they are supporting, it's the people.

Surely you can support a people without attributing the actions of their government against them....oh, wait. Nevermind.

 

[Real Hero]

I just don't understand how a pro LGBT group can be pro Palestine?

They would be banned and persecuted in either Palestinians territories at best.

It boggles my mind.

So they should want the Palestinians to be wiped out?

 

[haimon]

So they should want the Palestinians to be wiped out?

They should probably stay out of those politics...

I would imagine they would not be pro Saudi Arabia....

 

[Erin S Kittens]

I just don't understand how a pro LGBT group can be pro Palestine?

They would be banned and persecuted in either Palestinians territories at best.

It boggles my mind.

You don't understand why groups dedicated to promoting human rights would stand with an oppressed people?

 

[excelsiorlef]

They should probably stay out of those politics...

I would imagine they would not be pro Saudi Arabia....

Did you seriously compare Palestine to Saudi Arabia?

 

[squidyj]

I've seen people on the web who said their friends were not Zionists, yet were expelled from the March, which is pretty fucked up.

Yeah well in a fever dream it was revealed to me that all those people were reincarnations of hitler from alternate timelines, but not so alternate that he's actually a good guy. The point being you clearly can't trust them because of my credible account of a fever dream.

(Question directed toward dude abidis)
Also what about the reality that Israel was formed not just because of Jewish aggression if you want to describe it as such but also from the fact that in the 1940's there was a coordinated effort by many middle eastern and northern African countries to expel their Jewish populations from their homes and seizing their property using the scapegoat nationalist script created by the Nazis. The Palestinians were not just the victims of Jews but also victims of all the Arab states and they still are used as a tool to this day by Arab countries who treat Palestinian refugees very badly and ban freedom of movement and job access as well.

What is the purpose of this post? Are you suggesting that the nation and the people of israel are not responsible for their treatment of the palestinians? It's all the evil arab's fault? If not I'm not sure what relevance the involvement of other parties has to any discussion going on here.

 

[God Dayumm]

I just don't understand how a pro LGBT group can be pro Palestine?

They would be banned and persecuted in either Palestinians territories at best.

It boggles my mind.

It is not so much about Palestine as it is about being anti-genocide. Surely you agree that even is all Palestinians are homophobes they don't deserve to be brutalized?

 

[Kisaya]

Official statement from Dyke March Collective:

https://chicagodykemarchcollective....-on-2017-march-and-solidarity-with-palestine/

The group in question was heard disrupting chants, replacing the word “Palestine” with “everywhere,” saying: “From everywhere to Mexico, border walls have got to go.”

Yup I can see why people felt unsafe now. What assholes.

 

[squidyj]

i for one am shocked that these people were disruptive manipulative assholes. Noone could have seen this coming, noone.

shocked.

 

[Grimm Fandango]

Gotta say as someone who grew up Jewish, I had no idea a blue Star of David represented Zionism. Definitely will be more mindful of it going forward.

 

[Jag]

Gotta say as someone who grew up Jewish, I had no idea a blue Star of David represented Zionism. Definitely will be more mindful of it going forward.

Clearly it's important that other people dictate what your own symbols should mean.

 

[Stilton Disco]

Putting aside the antisemitism issues for a moment, I do wish people would stop trying to add things to or generally alter the rainbow/pride flag to make another political statement.

It already perfectly represents including the whole of our species regardless of where we're from, what we look like, what we believe or how we identify outselves. Sticking extra colours in it, religious symbols, national flags or any other groups symbols or iconography only serves to undermine the message of equality and unity that flag represents.

Fucking around with it is simply a rejection of everything good it currently stands for.

 

[haimon]

Did you seriously compare Palestine to Saudi Arabia?

I compared what would happen to a LGBT parade in both areas.

 

[haimon]

It is not so much about Palestine as it is about being anti-genocide. Surely you agree that even is all Palestinians are homophobes they don't deserve to be brutalized?

I would think that LGBT groups would use the time and energy in better ways and find causes to support that would also support LGBT causes in return.

 

[Alo0oy]

I compared what would happen to a LGBT parade in both areas.

It must be very comforting to think of brown people as a monolith that lacks diversity of ideas and viewpoints.

 

[haimon]

It must be very comforting to think of brown people as a monolith that lacks diversity of ideas and viewpoints.

I don't think of them as such.

However I do know what would happen if they tried to have a LGBT parade in either place.

I don't disagree that Palestinians are oppressed. I don't think LGBT groups should take sides on this issue since one side is oppressed and anti LGBT and the other side is the oppresser and accepts LGBT.

Edit:also ee you not coloring all Israelis as anti Palestinians as one group?

 

[excelsiorlef]

I don't think of them as such.

However I do know what would happen if they tried to have a LGBT parade in either place.

I don't disagree that Palestinians are oppressed. I don't think LGBT groups should take sides on this issue since one side is oppressed and anti LGBT and the other side is the oppresser and accepts LGBT.

Maybe stop telling Queer orgs what to do?


There's a reason this is a separate march than the usual parade.


It's funny you are engaging in literally the very pinkwashing that we've been talking about.

I mean you're basically saying LGBT people shouldn't oppose genocide as long as the one committing it is pro LGBT.

 

[Kisaya]

I would think that LGBT groups would use the time and energy in better ways and find causes to support that would also support LGBT causes in return.

Israel doesn't do anything to protect queer Palestinians and POC. No LGBT organization should support a system that discriminates and harms brown bodies, especially one that takes advantage of their community for their own benefit through pink washing.

 

[haimon]

Maybe stop telling Queer orgs what to do?


There's a reason this is a separate march than the usual parade.


It's funny you are engaging in literally the very pinkwashing that we've been talking about.

I mean you're basically saying LGBT people shouldn't oppose genocide as long as the one committing it is pro LGBT.

I am saying choose better battles. Just like I would not expect LGBT organizations to support the westboro church.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I am saying choose better battles. Just like I would not expect LGBT organizations to support the westboro church.

Again what.

So now opposing occupation is like supporting the Westboro Baptist church?

Honestly why don't you just say what you really feel here.