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Chris Matthews (MSNBC) suggests Clinton might run for Gov. of NY in 2018

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Blader

Member
It seems like you're not even reading my posts at this point.

Well, let's see:

legacyzero said:
Mistakes were clearly made, both in the campaign and the voters. Missteps with the polls, arrogance, assumption, overly political correctness, ID Politics, etc.

To which I said:

I am not really interested in a discourse that categorizes political correctness and "identity politics" as missteps.

To which you assured me, no no, it isn't political correctness and identity politics per se, just how they were used! Whatever that means. And then insisted that I was being close-minded about the topic. To which I replied:

There is nothing open-minded about discounting the rights and dignities of minorities as political liabilities.

(Rights and dignities of minorities = civil rights = identity politics, fyi.)

So I don't know, I think the throughline between your posts and my replies is pretty clear. What am I missing? What is the way political correctness and ID politics were mishandled by the Clinton campaign, and what's the better alternative that doesn't discount the rights of minorities (such as, you know, dismissing their rights and concerns as "identity politics" in the first place)?

Consider this me opening my mind to you.
 

numble

Member
If Hochul could leverage Cuomo out, they'd probably be going that direction already.

Hochul has like 0 clout, she can't do it. The only person in the state who could conceivably begin to challenge Cuomo is Schniderman and he'd still probably lose. Short of Chuck Schumer resigning from the Senate to force him out Clinton's the only one big enough to do it.

We were not discussing this specific election, but the idea of the governor position being an end game. If Hochul succeeded in 2018 or 2022, you would automatically throw her out of consideration for 2024/28?
 

Meowster

Member
New York loves Hillary so I don't see the issue, as long as she really wants to do it. I wouldn't blame her for wanting to retire after the awful treatment she faced throughout this past election. I think that would destroy anyone to the core. She's a good person and has done a lot for the USA.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
We were not discussing this specific election, but the idea of the governor position being an end game. If Hochul succeeded in 2018 or 2022, you would automatically throw her out of consideration for 2024/28?

She'd be ripped to shreds by then if it were even possible for her to force him out (It isn't and I have no idea why I'm even entertaining the idea that it is). Look at the history of people in that position in NY politics in modern times. It's a dead end. If you aren't ripped apart by the press you get hoisted by your own petard. Everyone thinks they're going to be the one to survive the gauntlet, but Rabum Alal gets what's his at the end of the day.
 
Clinton doesn't seem useful for anything other than fundraising. If she really does run for Governor of New York, it's quite possible that she could be beaten by a Republican that attacks her from the left.

A Republican that attacks her from the left?

Who the hell would that be?

She's not a conservative.
 

Zyae

Member
It''s not shortsighted in the least- there's a simple solution - move.

If you want a national profile for a presidential campaign, the NY Gov's office is not how you get it..

Obama abandoned the 50-state strategy after he won in '08.


Four presidents in US history have been former governors of New York.
 

commedieu

Banned
She should just retire and enjoy her life. She's given enough up for an ungrateful nation. She's paved the way for a lot of people.I think her legacy is a good one, at the end of the day.

Spotted, but she's a politician.

Edit:

And for jokes.

Maybe she could team up with rousey..
 
lol

She should be out of politics for good after losing that election.

I agree totally. Not saying she should just stop and don't do anything at all ever with her life, but after losing a General Election to, of all people, Donald fucking Trump, I can't really see myself being all that interested in anything she wants to do politically. I don't know if she deserves any support after that lost election. Am I being too hard on her? I really don't think so. She's not some fragile butterfly. She's a tough individual. I'm actually very displeased at the fact she's even going to Trump's inauguration. She shouldn't go with the way he, and the people around him, disrespected, and continue to disrespect, her.

I know a lot of people think blaming Hillary is the wrong thing to do, but it's exactly the right thing to be doing. All the blame may not be on her alone, but a sizable portion of it is. She did not lead her campaign effectively enough and did not have a convincing message that included properly laying out the reasons why she had to be President, and why Trump didn't make sense.
 

Meier

Member
Why? She should keep fighting. We all should.

giphy.gif


Love this reply.
 

legacyzero

Banned
Well, let's see:



To which I said:



To which you assured me, no no, it isn't political correctness and identity politics per se, just how they were used! Whatever that means. And then insisted that I was being close-minded about the topic. To which I replied:



(Rights and dignities of minorities = civil rights = identity politics, fyi.)

So I don't know, I think the throughline between your posts and my replies is pretty clear. What am I missing? What is the way political correctness and ID politics were mishandled by the Clinton campaign, and what's the better alternative that doesn't discount the rights of minorities (such as, you know, dismissing their rights and concerns as "identity politics" in the first place)?

Consider this me opening my mind to you.
Firstly, is it a regular thing to always tie social justice with IDentity? You're right. Those things should not be dismissed. How it was mishandled was that it was the centerpiece of the campaign. For better or worse. Campaign ads, "im voting Hillary because she's a Woman!" (While caring nothing about her policy substance or history), ads that only fired shots about how much of a dirty man Trump is, and how misogynist and racist he his (which is true). The "deplorables" comment, PC outrage over his various speeches and other actions, etc. But WHERE IS THE FUCKING SUBSTANCE? How are you going to reach Bernie supporters after the DNC conspired against him? That's all fine, sure. Even as her campaign was over, they refused to let it go! They blamed the "sexists and Bernie bros", and any OTHER thing than themselves, indirectly pinning sexism on anybody that voted against her (including Bernie supporters, even during the Primary and beyond), etc.

When there are just-as-real issues out there that are MORE important to some people than social issues. It fucking sucks, I know, but it's the reality! Especially in the Rust Belt. That's the telling area that proves this IMO. In hurt demographic run down by trade deals, deals that she supported, where was she with the policy substance to help heal that? Meanwhile, that was one of Trumps driving conversations. They flipped, and looking back, unsurprisingly.

And that's not even the most extreme instances. Once the election was over. The conversation then turned towards white men and women and the culprit. To the Democrats downfall. Twitter was God awful. Seeing responses like "fuck you white people." And white people need to die now."That's a sure fire was to wine over voters in the next 4 years.

It's all I'm saying. It can't be the only driver. The only platform. And it can't be used as the only weapon in a battle where multiple types of warfare exists.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
Things change. Wisconsin hadn't voted GOP since 1988

Unless an Obama pops up to take the governor's seat it's just going to keep devouring NY politicians. I mean, the last governor we had that had the ability to go for the presidency was Mario Cuomo and he had mob ties.
 
How is her ability to lead being questioned by her losing an election while getting more votes?

Also she won NY.

In part because the reason she lost the electoral vote was hubris and failed mind games. I mean seriously, doing work in Iowa in order to bait Trump into following suit and ignoring the three key states that lost her the election in spite of data that certainly did not vindicate her.
 
Well, let's see:



To which I said:



To which you assured me, no no, it isn't political correctness and identity politics per se, just how they were used! Whatever that means. And then insisted that I was being close-minded about the topic. To which I replied:



(Rights and dignities of minorities = civil rights = identity politics, fyi.)

So I don't know, I think the throughline between your posts and my replies is pretty clear. What am I missing? What is the way political correctness and ID politics were mishandled by the Clinton campaign, and what's the better alternative that doesn't discount the rights of minorities (such as, you know, dismissing their rights and concerns as "identity politics" in the first place)?

Consider this me opening my mind to you.

This is absolutely rich.
 

RedHill

Banned
Lol @ this thread. She lost the election so she should never run for anything again? She'd definitely win this. I'd love to see her as an active thorn in Trump's ass
 
Clinton won New York in both her Senate races, both her presidential runs in the primaries and in the general in 2016, all by overwhelming margins.

But the people have spoken!

Who gives a fuck what the other 49 states said? NY electorate clearly has no beef with her.

I think it'd be good for her to cap off her political career with something other than "lost to Trump"
 

Draft

Member
The last one was a long time ago. Albany is like the killing fields these days, a great wheel of destruction that breaks all who enter it.
A reality TV star is going to be President in a couple weeks. Burn your polisci books, they are no longer relevant.
 

Blader

Member
Firstly, is it a regular thing to always tie social justice with IDentity? You're right. Those things should not be dismissed. How it was mishandled was that it was the centerpiece of the campaign. For better or worse. Campaign ads, "im voting Hillary because she's a Woman!" (While caring nothing about her policy substance or history),

I would love to see these ads with people saying they're voting for Hillary because she's a woman, with no mention of her policy substance or vote record.

ads that only fired shots about how much of a dirty man Trump is, and how misogynist and racist he his (which is true).

Those seem like valid attack lines against such a blatantly racist and sexist candidate.

The "deplorables" comment, PC outrage over his various speeches and other actions, etc. But WHERE IS THE FUCKING SUBSTANCE?

There were many rallies and speeches devoted to policy. Problem was, nobody cared! Both the media and many voters did not give a shit about Hillary's more uplifting or policy wonk moments; they wanted to hear whatever Trump was saying, and then wanted to hear Hillary attack Trump for whatever she just said. There was no shortage of thought policy positions, or speeches and white papers to support those positions, from Hillary's campaign. Just a lack of interest from the press and, consequentially, many voters.

How are you going to reach Bernie supporters after the DNC conspired against him? That's all fine, sure. Even as her campaign was over, they refused to let it go! They blamed the "sexists and Bernie bros", and any OTHER thing than themselves, indirectly pinning sexism on anybody that voted against her (including Bernie supporters, even during the Primary and beyond), etc.

I'm not sure if you're talking about post-primary or post-election, but I really do not recall the campaign ever labeling anybody that voted against her, or specifically Bernie voters, as sexists (aside from Madeline Albright's regrettable remark about women needing to support women or they'll go to hell, but she wasn't part of the campaign and this isn't even what you're talking about :lol).

When there are just-as-real issues out there that are MORE important to some people than social issues. It fucking sucks, I know, but it's the reality! Especially in the Rust Belt. That's the telling area that proves this IMO. In hurt demographic run down by trade deals, deals that she supported, where was she with the policy substance to help heal that? Meanwhile, that was one of Trumps driving conversations. They flipped, and looking back, unsurprisingly.

Trump tells rust belt workers what they want to hear; Hillary told them what needs to happen. She gave speeches and espoused positions about the need to, among other things, make education more affordable/accessible and implement more jobs retraining initiatives to transition workers from declining industries into more thriving ones (e.g. moving coal miners into renewable power jobs). Many of those people don't want to hear that; they don't want to be told they need to go to school or undergo some new training program to get a new job, they just their same old job back, with better pay than before. Trump told them he'll deliver, which is why they flipped for him. What's to be done about that other than just have Hillary, or any Dem, straight up lie to these voters about bringing back jobs that the market is phasing out?

This is absolutely rich.

Cindi Mayweather said:
What? I've been pretty much on topic. Starting fights? What.

Rich indeed.

Care to actually respond... rather than throw empty potshots

Cindi Mayweather hasn't contributed a single goddamn substantive argument in this entire thread, and has been taking potshots and backpeddling when called out on it, so don't hold your breath.
 

Zyae

Member
Clinton won New York in both her Senate races, both her presidential runs in the primaries and in the general in 2016, all by overwhelming margins.

But the people have spoken!

Who gives a fuck what the other 49 states said? NY electorate clearly has no beef with her.

I think it'd be good for her to cap off her political career with something other than "lost to Trump"

As a resident of new york id like her to stay away. Thanks
 
Care to actually respond... rather than throw empty potshots

He took two points, ignored the rest, and proceeded to insult him while sitting on a throne of superior knowledge while ignoring Legacyzero's larger point. He refused to acknowledge his post because "I refuse to acknowledge political correctness and ID politics as missteps". But when called out on it, refuses to have a discussion and beats his chest about the discussion being beneath him. Fuck that.
 
Have you all considered the possibility that Clinton is actually the undercover agent of Trump, and her whole life's goat is to destroy DEM from within?
 

Abounder

Banned
Obama abandoned the 50-state strategy after he won in '08.

Obama still had twice as many battleground state field offices in 2012 compared to 2016 Clinton, and Obama didn't skip states like WI. That's all on Hillary.

The 50-state strategy is a party operation. It was Kaine and DWS who moved away from it.

Agreed that the party as a whole is weak but Obama/etc. called out Hillary's lack of campaigning efforts, c'mon now she flew back home each night while skipping rural USA and had a costly streak of no media press conferences. No one expected that from a veteran like Hillary. She hardly campaigned compared to Obama, Bill, or even the novice Trump. But hey maybe the inevitable third time's the charm, Dems do need to get organized pronto
 
Obama still had twice as many battleground state field offices in 2012 compared to 2016 Clinton, and Obama didn't skip states like WI. That's all on Hillary.



Agreed that the party as a whole is weak but Obama/etc. called out Hillary's lack of campaigning efforts, c'mon now she flew back home each night while skipping rural USA and had a costly streak of no media press conferences. No one expected that from a veteran like Hillary. She hardly campaigned compared to Obama, Bill, or even the novice Trump. But hey maybe the inevitable third time's the charm, Dems do need to get organized pronto
I think you're confusing the 50 state strategy with Hillary's (very real) flawed campaign decisions. 50 state strategy is more about funding state parties and helping them recruit good local candidates so you can win surprise house seats like ID-2, not making the mistake of not visiting Wisconsin a single time during the GE.
 

Blader

Member
He took two points, ignored the rest, and proceeded to insult him while sitting on a throne of superior knowledge while ignoring Legacyzero's larger point. He refused to acknowledge his post because "I refuse to acknowledge political correctness and ID politics as missteps". But when called out on it, refuses to have a discussion and beats his chest about the discussion being beneath him. Fuck that.

Maybe I didn't call out "Missteps with the polls, arrogance, assumption" because...I agree with them. I'm not going to argue against points I agree with.

I don't know what sitting on a throne of superior knowledge means, so it must not be all that superior.

Obama still had twice as many battleground state field offices in 2012 compared to 2016 Clinton, and Obama didn't skip states like WI. That's all on Hillary.



Agreed that the party as a whole is weak but Obama/etc. called out Hillary's lack of campaigning efforts, c'mon now she flew back home each night while skipping rural USA and had a costly streak of no media press conferences. No one expected that from a veteran like Hillary. She hardly campaigned compared to Obama, Bill, or even the novice Trump. But hey maybe the inevitable third time's the charm, Dems do need to get organized pronto

I agree, but that's not really what the 50-state strategy is. The 50-state strategy is the DNC running moderate/conservative blue dogs in southern or rust belt states (or, ideally, Jason Kander types in red states where applicable) for congressional and local races, it's not Hillary's campaigning or lack thereof in rural America.
 

Zyae

Member
Obama still had twice as many battleground state field offices in 2012 compared to 2016 Clinton, and Obama didn't skip states like WI. That's all on Hillary.



Agreed that the party as a whole is weak but Obama/etc. called out Hillary's lack of campaigning efforts, c'mon now she flew back home each night while skipping rural USA and had a costly streak of no media press conferences. No one expected that from a veteran like Hillary. She hardly campaigned compared to Obama, Bill, or even the novice Trump. But hey maybe the inevitable third time's the charm, Dems do need to get organized pronto

no you see, Obama didnt support the dnc enough while president. Thats why she lost
 

kirblar

Member
Obama still had twice as many battleground state field offices in 2012 compared to 2016 Clinton, and Obama didn't skip states like WI. That's all on Hillary.
Sure. Thankfully, no one wants her in a national campaign again.

But that's not what this is. She's won every NY race she's ever competed in.
no you see, Obama didnt support the dnc enough while president. Thats why she lost
Both can be true.

But if you're foaming at the mouth at the mere mention of her, that won't matter to you.
 
Rich indeed.



Cindi Mayweather hasn't contributed a single goddamn substantive argument in this entire thread, and has been taking potshots and backpeddling when called out on it, so don't hold your breath.

That accusation coming from you is hilarious.

I am not really interested in a discourse that categorizes political correctness and "identity politics" as missteps.

There is nothing open-minded about discounting the rights and dignities of minorities as political liabilities.

Anyone who posts the number of Young Turks videos you do to make arguments is clearly thread shitting.

Talk is cheap. And you're not a mod. Chin up, buttercup. Stick to your lane and know your place, Poligaffer. Find me evidence I started a fight in this thread besides petty disagreement.

All hail Blader! The king of open discussion!
 

Goodstyle

Member
I think at this point its been established that people don't really want Hillary Clinton anymore. Democrats didn't show up for her in the general election and she lost to Donald freaking Trump. Democrats should keep fighting, but I don't think they're fighting for Hillary

Urban Democrats showed up hard for Hillary, and New York is basically her state. It's the one place where she's generally well liked. If she ran, she'd win easily.
 
That accusation coming from you is hilarious.







Talk is cheap. And you're not a mod. Chin up, buttercup. Stick to your lane and know your place, Poligaffer. Find me evidence I started a fight in this thread besides petty disagreement.

All hail Blader! The king of open discussion
!

Do you really think this kind of antagonism is productive to any kind of discussion?
 

jfkgoblue

Member
I don't see Cuomo doing well in a Presidential race. The past election shows the rest of the country doesn't feel like New York shares their values, Cuomo is of Italian descent (therefore to white America he's foreign), and his brother is on CNN, so he will get blasted for liberal media bias.
Maybe 70 years ago this was true, but not anymore
 
Another interesting point wrt Feingold is that he actually won a lot of the traditionally blue counties in western Wisconsin that Trump flipped this year, just not by a large enough margin to save him from the Clinton-Johnson suburbanites. A Clinton campaign that tried to go get the traditional Democrats to remember why they are Democrats probably would have actually pushed him (and her) over the top.

Not that this is that relevant to her NY governorship bid, but this is dumb and we should get a young, skilled candidate to do this instead.

:lol people actually blaming Hillary for Feingold doing worse than her. Incredible
 
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