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[Wyndstryker]

This attitude is so annoying. Why close a thread because of a couple users? It's like people in the "pics that make you laugh thread" saying it should be closed because 2 people post a few stupid pictures.

This thread has already had some interesting back-and-forths and I've been reading the whole thing. The couple people here trolling are obvious in their intentions, even to the lurkers. Let them look continue to look like fools who don't know anything about the theology they abhor.

The only problem I have is that if they were trolling in other threads it would've been enforced yet it doesn't go through on these threads even when the OP has set the guidelines.

It is basically forever doomed to degrade into such. Sure there is meaningful conversation with various groups but the trolling can easily overwrite any of that even if it is a couple of people. It is still a derailed thread.

 

[WillyFive]

Being tax-exempt is nice, but it gives the wrong message in that people can take advantage of it and found a malicious or insincere sect just to take advantage of not having to pay taxes.

But then again, if your religion is run entirely on donations, then the less money needed to support the cause the better.

 

[umop_3pisdn]

Because it moves his understanding of morality to a place external to the human experience.

If God is decreeing morality, and all in the domain of good is determined by God, then there are passages in the Bible that I or anyone else can use to justify owning slaves, killing infidels, raping women, etc.

These justifications are dangerous because no one can be held accountable, they simply point to God and say that he is A) Not taking questions B) Not subject to our judgements. As a secularist, I don't want to live in such a world.

Yeah, I brought this up in my post but no one responded to it. Values and empathy are a natural human response, basing their value on metaphysical belief can only detract from these responses, and I've heard mentioned studies that showed this. Some of those with belief often seem to claim that secular values are inferior when if anything the reverse is true. Values derived from an external authority acts to cheapen those values. It adds an extra degree of personal separation from the subject where it isn't needed, if anything we should be more aware of our internal values as a basis for ethical action. For one if we're more aware of how we genuinely feel about something, it minimizes the risk of hypocrisy, paying lip service, or 'doing the right thing for the wrong reason', among other things. Reflection seems better suited to a more holistic form of morality than divine mandate could ever be imo.

Not that basing morality on an external source is always bad, but I do think it's less than ideal.

I have no problem with religion in general. I actually think it has the potential to make us better people, but my interest in this subject is that religion should actually serve this goal instead of just claiming it, as there are many situations where it may not, and dogmatism only discourages discussion on how religion itself could be made better.

 

[Ivan A Nguyen]

And I think it's weak that all these religions fight the government to keep their tax-exempt status. From a business perspective, of course it makes sense to lobby the government so your customers can pay lower taxes in exchange for buying your products. But, from a moral purity perspective, it would seem stronger to ask people to pay regardless.

During mass a basket is passed down my pew so that people can donate money to the church. I've seen many people give money, but many more who do not. I've also seen churches both big and small from many denominations. None of them ever charged an entry fee for walking though the doors and attending a service (I know it makes me a bad Catholic for going to other churches). In this way, I do not think religions are a business.

The sales of merch and the use of space (like renting out the church for a wedding) probably cost money, but they have an overhead cost like any service provider. What they do with the money is beyond my control, but as the government has no state sponsored alternative. I don't think they should be taxing what is there.

 

[tfur]

I think you guys should ignore the freshman BS, and move onto deeper subjects.

Perhaps go deeper into infinite love, and the metaphysics of everlasting life.

I also enjoy the concepts of the manifestations of the supreme being in the father, son and spirit construct. I would also like to see someone go deeper into how the Greek living words of "way, truth and life" relate to the father/son/spirit.

 

[JCRedeems]

I understand that but that still doesn't change my question: how do you know for a fact that it was the Holy Spirit? Is it possible it was the Spirit most definitely. But you're arguing it is 100%. This is what I was referring to as black and white.

If you're speaking to a Muslim about accepting Christ and he tells you that he will read the Bible if you read the Qu'ran with an open mind, would you?

I already told you how I knew it was the Holy Spirit. I'm not going to argue anything. If you don't accept my testimony then that's on you. I'm not going to be like "Hey man, you better believe me. It was the Holy Spirit!" I know it was and I'll leave it at that.

I have already read parts of the Qu'ran which only strengthened my faith in Jesus Christ. But I rather not get into that here.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

I already told you how I knew it was the Holy Spirit. I'm not going to argue anything. If you don't accept my testimony then that's on you. I'm not going to be like "Hey man, you better believe me. It was the Holy Spirit!" I know it was and I'll leave it at that.

I have already read parts of the Qu'ran which only strengthened my faith in Jesus Christ. But I rather not get into that here.

I didn't ask if you had read parts. I asked if a Muslim asked you to read the entire Qu'ran with an open heart and open mind would you. Would you pray to God and ask him if Muhammad was Muhammad was his prophet. The reason I ask you this is because I find many Christians who have no problem asking others to read the Bible with an open mind and heart and to pray to God about Jesus but will not do the same for the deity of that person's religion.

 

[hellclerk]

That's because you don't know the power of what Jesus Christ did on the cross. No one deserves to be saved but it is through the blood of Jesus Christ we are granted salvation if you believe in him from your heart.

It reads:

[snip]

And I don't boast about it, it's all because of Jesus Christ and what he did on the cross. It was my faith in Jesus Christ that saved me and not because of anything else. It reads [snip]

No, I don't presume to know that power, nor do I presume to fully understand it. Salvation does not come because you believe in Jesus from your heart, salvation comes if God wills it to come. You can hope and pray all you like, but you'll never know until you are before the judgement seat of the divine. Read again that part from Timothy: "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." I profess this every Sunday before I receive communion. Because I am chief amongst sinners, I do not so arrogantly presume that I am saved until the time comes for me to be saved. I do not so self-righteously declare that "all you have to do is believe in Jesus and you are saved" because even those who come in the 11th hour are accepted as the first, and who knows, maybe those who don't believe in Christ will be saved as well for simply trying to be good people.

Then again I'm Catholic and, I assume you're protestant, and this discussion is often the largest schism between our two perspectives on theology.

 

[bonesmccoy]

And I think it's weak that all these religions fight the government to keep their tax-exempt status. From a business perspective, of course it makes sense to lobby the government so your customers can pay lower taxes in exchange for buying your products. But, from a moral purity perspective, it would seem stronger to ask people to pay regardless.

Actually, the tax-exempt status comes from (a) guaranteeing that the State cannot coerce the Church and (b) as restitution for the charitable work the Church does. These days its more for (b) than (a), a fact that will likely become much more apparent as the State inevitably begins to rollback its social services.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

No, I don't presume to know that power, nor do I presume to fully understand it. Salvation does not come because you believe in Jesus from your heart, salvation comes if God wills it to come. You can hope and pray all you like, but you'll never know until you are before the judgement seat of the divine. Read again that part from Timothy: "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." I profess this every Sunday before I receive communion. Because I am chief amongst sinners, I do not so arrogantly presume that I am saved until the time comes for me to be saved. I do not so self-righteously declare that "all you have to do is believe in Jesus and you are saved" because even those who come in the 11th hour are accepted as the first, and who knows, maybe those who don't believe in Christ will be saved as well for simply trying to be good people.

Then again I'm Catholic and, I assume you're protestant, and this discussion is often the largest schism between our two perspectives on theology.

Yep. Only God knows who will and will not be in heaven. Only God knows whether the Bible is or isn't his word. All we are able to do as human beings is to have faith based upon our own experience.

 

[Ivan A Nguyen]

I didn't ask if you had read parts. I asked if a Muslim asked you to read the entire Qu'ran with an open heart and open mind would you. Would you pray to God and ask him if Muhammad was Muhammad was his prophet. The reason I ask you this is because I find many Christians who have no problem asking others to read the Bible with an open mind and heart and to pray to God about Jesus but will not do the same for the deity of that person's religion.

I think you're getting really caught up in the hypothetical, but it does bring up a topic I'd like to ask of the thread.

Why do we believe that God stopped sending us prophets? Today we have saints, but doesn't feel like it's the same as it was back in the OT. Saints are only identified as such after they are dead, where prophets were venerated while still alive.

Also, why did we stop adding to the bible? It worked as a great tool for teaching religion for many years, but some claim it to be outdated. If a person believes that the bible can be seen as the 'Word of God' or 'Inspired by God' then why do we think he stopped contacting us?

 

[hellclerk]

I think you're getting really caught up in the hypothetical, but it does bring up a topic I'd like to ask of the thread.

Why do we believe that God stopped sending us prophets? Today we have saints, but doesn't feel like it's the same as it was back in the OT. Saints are only identified as such after they are dead, where prophets were venerated while still alive.

Also, why did we stop adding to the bible? It worked as a great tool for teaching religion for many years, but some claim it to be outdated. If a person believes that the bible can be seen as the 'Word of God' or 'Inspired by God' then why do we think he stopped contacting us?

There is a long wordy answer to this that simply says that "no, we still do add to this shit, we just call it something else" but I don't really feel like talking about it. Just look at official Church sanctioned theological works, dogmas, the lives and actions of the saints, etc. It also stems out of that whole Catholic humility thing. Saints never consider themselves saints or prophets during their lives. because they don't really consider themselves worthy of such honors.

 

[JCRedeems]

No, I don't presume to know that power, nor do I presume to fully understand it. Salvation does not come because you believe in Jesus from your heart, salvation comes if God wills it to come. You can hope and pray all you like, but you'll never know until you are before the judgement seat of the divine. Read again that part from Timothy: "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." I profess this every Sunday before I receive communion. Because I am chief amongst sinners, I do not so arrogantly presume that I am saved until the time comes for me to be saved. I do not so self-righteously declare that "all you have to do is believe in Jesus and you are saved" because even those who come in the 11th hour are accepted as the first, and who knows, maybe those who don't believe in Christ will be saved as well for simply trying to be good people.

Then again I'm Catholic and, I assume you're protestant, and this discussion is often the largest schism between our two perspectives on theology.

Ah that explains it. Most Catholics believe they are saved through works (as well as Mormons). But if you are saved by works then why did Jesus die on the cross for?

It reads:
Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.

Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."

Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."

Eph. 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not by works, lest any man should boast."

All the work was already done by Jesus Christ on the cross. How awesome is that? That's how great God is.

It reads in the Bible that salvation is through faith - by believing in your heart Jesus Christ died for your sins and was raised: "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Romans 10:9

A lot of what Catholics practice and believe, especially Roman Catholics, are not in the Bible. A lot of it is pagan - they are man-made rules and not of God, such as changing the 10 commandments. Please watch these videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5m62FWi0Jw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ljZbemX0dw&feature=related

 

[Mr.Squirrel]

Look, I mostly agree with the theory of evolution. The part I can't quite agree is that humans come from the same ancestor as apes. Even though there is a big gap in intelligence between an ape and a frog, I think the gap is bigger from ape to human. That's my point. I have shown ITT that a two year old kid is more intelligent than the ape on youtube (undoubtedly one of the most intelligent apes there are). And human intelligence develops 38 more years and reaches it's peak at 40 years old.

But don't know any other theory that explains better the origin of the human being, and I have shown that there is a notable DNA similitude between man and ape. I'm of the opinion that God had something to do in this mysterious (at least for me) thing, but I'm not trying to pass that as a fact to other people; all I'm trying to say is that the theory of evolution doesn't explain satisfactorily (IMO) the origin of man.

How do magnets work?

 

[racooon]

What irritates me about the people who claim 'maturity' in this thread is that they equate maturity with ignoring vast segments of the Christian faith. Particularly concerned with the behaviour of God, of human nauture, determinism and what happens after death. Wilful obstruction of conversation is not intelligence.

 

[NullPointer]

Hello from Agnostic-GAF. I wish you guys the best with this as regardless of whether you are a believer or not, Christianity is an extremely powerful influence in our lives.

Just ignore the trolls, you know who they are.

When this settles a bit I'd like to ask Christian-GAF their thoughts on monetary issues (like interest on loans as has already been brought up). I truly believe that money is the root of all evil, and while one can say "Render unto Caesar", that doesn't make certain practices moral.

 

[manueldelalas]

How do magnets work?

See's avatar.
(laughs)

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Ah that explains it. Most Catholics believe they are saved through works (as well as Mormons). But if you are saved by works then why did Jesus die on the cross for?

I am sorry JC but you're wrong. Most Catholics DO believe they're saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Roman Catholicism is very similar to that of Judaism. Evangelicals paint Jews as believing they receive God's approval through their obedience in keeping as many of the 613 laws as possible when this is dead wrong. Jews don't believe they earn God's favor by following his Law anymore than you believe you EARN God's favor by believing in Jesus Christ. You believe that your faith in Jesus isn't a work as earning God's favor. Jews and I believe Catholics would say that they're obedient not to earn God's acceptance but because its simply a mitzvah to be obedient.

Also, just a tip, you'd be better off especially on GAF if you don't try to evangelize, even in a thread such as this. Painting other beliefs as PAGAN in a way that is negative or painting them as false compared to yours isn't the way to defend your own faith. I also would suggest that you get a better grasp on the beliefs of others before you try to tell them what it is that they believe.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Hello from Agnostic-GAF. I wish you guys the best with this as regardless of whether you are a believer or not, Christianity is an extremely powerful influence in our lives.

Just ignore the trolls, you know who they are.

When this settles a bit I'd like to ask Christian-GAF their thoughts on monetary issues (like interest on loans as has already been brought up). I truly believe that money is the root of all evil, and while one can say "Render unto Caesar", that doesn't make certain practices moral.

The NT never says that money is the root of all evil, it says that the love of money is the root of all evil. I.E., placing your first priority in connection with the almighty buck. Money is necessary, be it paperback, coins, or simple goods.

 

[ElRenoRaven]

You know I've been reading this thread from the start. I've struggled with how I should word this post so I'll do what I do best. I'll speak my mind and if it pisses people off oh well.

1. For those that come into this thread to debate with those who believe and are respectful just know you are a rarity here. Because see a lot of people, notice I didn't say all, here like to say they're open minded and respectful to everyone are actually full of shit. They only respect you and treat you civil if you are not a christian or conservative. God help you if you are both.

2. For those that do believe in god or are christian who come here. You have the power to make this thread whatever you want. You can choose to have a friendly thread with some interesting debate with those who are respectful or you can let those who do nothing but come in to attack you drag you down to their level. That is your choice. Make the thread whatever you want it to be.

3. For those who are coming into this thread to attack and just to be dicks to those who want to have some nice friendly chat and debate, you really should be ashamed of yourselves.

So there you go. For those coming into this thread to discuss and have civil debate keep it up. I've enjoyed reading your debate on both sides.

 

[Kinitari]

I am not all too familiar with Christianity, I have a hopefully non-offensive question.

Do some of you Christians ever feel... pressure to stay religious? I don't ask this because I am trying to turn you away from religion, I ask because I wonder what it would have been like growing up Christian instead of Muslim. Even after I was pretty sure what I was (Atheist) I didn't want to admit it to myself, let alone my family. When I eventually came to terms with it, I never told my family - I still haven't told anyone in my family. I know my family wont hate me, I know they wont disown me, they're not like that - they're progressive as far as Muslims go. But, I don't know what it is, I just don't want to disappoint them like that.

So to Christians who have ever struggled with their faith (I know some of you have) - did you feel one of the things that held you fast to your personal belief was the... fear of finally confronting family with it?

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

I am not all too familiar with Christianity, I have a hopefully non-offensive question.

Do some of you Christians ever feel... pressure to stay religious? I don't ask this because I am trying to turn you away from religion, I ask because I wonder what it would have been like growing up Christian instead of Muslim. Even after I was pretty sure what I was (Atheist) I didn't want to admit it to myself, let alone my family. When I eventually came to terms with it, I never told my family - I still haven't told anyone in my family. I know my family wont hate me, I know they wont disown me, they're not like that - they're progressive as far as Muslims go. But, I don't know what it is, I just don't want to disappoint them like that.

So to Christians who have ever struggled with their faith (I know some of you have) - did you feel one of the things that held you fast to your personal belief was the... fear of finally confronting family with it?

Well I wasn't raised Christian but being raised Jewish and having to confront my parents that I at the time was studying to be a Jehovah's Witness? Yea, that sucked. Even though I was Jewish and Bar Mitzvah at 13, I was never religious. I would have considered myself an atheist at the time. Then I met a girl who I fell for HARD who I later found out was a JW. In order to continue seeing her I had to have been a JW or at least studying to become one. So I did. Telling my mother and father was reallllllllllllllllly uncomfortable but they didn't pressure or disown me or anything.

I ended up studying with the JW's for a year and was on the path to baptism until I just realized that much of it I couldn't accept as true. I spent time studying, talking to different people, reading, praying and came to the conclusion that what I was being taught flew in the face of who I was naturally: someone who always questioned everything around him.
Leaving the JW's was difficult as well since I had made some friends, not to mention I knew it would be the end of me and the girl I was in love with.

I ended up becoming a born again Christian 6 months later and attended a very conservative church (Church of Christ). Was there for 2+ years. I met 2 of my best friends in the world through that experience who later became my roommates. Became VERY close with my pastor as well. But in the end I disagreed with how the leadership viewed the world around them (us vs them mentality) and I left.

At the time I was deciding which school to attend for my Masters. It was either Pepperdine which was pretty much a Church of Christ university although I was offered a 90% scholarship there, or Fuller Seminary. At Fuller I knew I would be challenged much more so I went there. I was your basic conservative evangelical who thought he knew it all. People in PoliGAF knew me at that time. Over the next 3 years, partially due to what I learned and then life experience I changed.

I don't go to church currently due to my disagreement with many churches I have attended. My wife still goes to the church my in laws are pastors over. They're great and never pressure me but I do feel like the red headed step child sometimes. I love my in laws as they're two of the best people I know. Non judgemental, accepting of others, etc. but I am just not comfortable being a church environment. Haven't been for a couple of years.

 

[ronito]

Ah that explains it. Most Catholics believe they are saved through works (as well as Mormons). But if you are saved by works then why did Jesus die on the cross for?

It reads:
Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.

Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."

Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."

Eph. 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not by works, lest any man should boast."

All the work was already done by Jesus Christ on the cross. How awesome is that? That's how great God is.

It reads in the Bible that salvation is through faith - by believing in your heart Jesus Christ died for your sins and was raised: "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Romans 10:9

A lot of what Catholics practice and believe, especially Roman Catholics, are not in the Bible. A lot of it is pagan - they are man-made rules and not of God, such as changing the 10 commandments. Please watch these videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5m62FWi0Jw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ljZbemX0dw&feature=related

of course:

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven" Matt: 7:21

 

[manueldelalas]

of course:

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven" Matt: 7:21

Excellent quote.

 

[JGS]

Hello from Agnostic-GAF. I wish you guys the best with this as regardless of whether you are a believer or not, Christianity is an extremely powerful influence in our lives.

Just ignore the trolls, you know who they are.

When this settles a bit I'd like to ask Christian-GAF their thoughts on monetary issues (like interest on loans as has already been brought up). I truly believe that money is the root of all evil, and while one can say "Render unto Caesar", that doesn't make certain practices moral.

Although there's nothing wrong with money (Money helps the congregations survive as well as allows it's worshippers to make a living and help the needy), the bold is definitely true. I'm not sure what was brought up about interest but usury was usually avoided between Christian worshippers because it often had to do with the destitute who wouldn't be able to pay back the principle, much less interest.

However, business enterprises could be set up and interest charged (As brought out in one of Jesus' parables) but business of that nature was again rarely dealing with ones in poverty but rather between those with money.

These days, the thinking is it is moral to lend to the poor since someone has to give them a break. However, the poor who are lent too have stricter terms, higher rates, & adverse actions against them since they often have a tough time paying. So there's good reason to avoid lending to them. However, there is also good reason to give them what we can. The giving should offset the lack of lending.

IMO, I think it's on the hypocritical side to be a Christian but not feel the need to have services in place to help the poor. It's true that "Caesar" handles the partitioning out of it nowadays, but it's tough for me to stomach religious people who have a problem with it. It also should be said that there is a pretty wide gap between what is given to the poor and what they need to get from lenders.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

of course:

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven" Matt: 7:21

Bingo. I have actually been told by some evangelicals that good works done by non Christian are actually not good at all. If an atheist were to feed the poor its a work of Satan since Christ isn't being preached. Not saying anybody here feels that way but this verse just reminded me of those individuals.

This is the problem with sola scriptura. Without context and tradition, any person who just picked up the Bible, made a prayer, and feels that the Spirit has sealed tham as one of Christ's feels he is fit to lead and to interpret. Its why we had David Koresh and Jim Jones.

 

[JGS]

Bingo. I have actually been told by some evangelicals that good works done by non Christian are actually not good at all. If an atheist were to feed the poor its a work of Satan since Christ isn't being preached. Not saying anybody here feels that way but this verse just reminded me of those individuals.

This is the problem with sola scriptura. Without context and tradition, any person who just picked up the Bible, made a prayer, and feels that the Spirit has sealed tham as one of Christ's feels he is fit to lead and to interpret. Its why we had David Koresh and Jim Jones.

Well Romans 10:9 is part of a larger context. Romans 10 is encouraging people to preach which is a whole lot of work, whereas just saying you believe takes no work at all.

None of that has to do with the good non-Christians do, however, since it's not tied to declaring the works of God. Goodness is an inherent quality of humans (Just like selfishness and badness), so a non-Christian doing good things is not unusual, but it's also commendable.

At the same time, there's no particular reason to think they are in line for the same benefits as one who is actually worshipping if they also have the ability to. Sounds harsh of curse, but Christianity by scripture is admittedly a discriminatory faith that has little to no desire of intermingling beliefs/non-beliefs even if some of the ones claiming Christianity encourage it.

 

[Chaplain]

Bingo. I have actually been told by some evangelicals that good works done by non Christian are actually not good at all. If an atheist were to feed the poor its a work of Satan since Christ isn't being preached. Not saying anybody here feels that way but this verse just reminded me of those individuals.

The thing is God said our heart is corrupt and evil. Christians and atheists can do good works but many times it is not with real love. What is involved is hidden with a ulterior motive.

People do good because that is what God has put in our DNA. But humanity is more bent towards evil than good. That is another reason Jesus came. To make men and woman into the original creation God intended.

Jesus said that the only work God accepts is belief in His Son (in the context of salvation). As Jesus wrote to Paul:

'And I will rescue you from both your own people and the Gentiles. Yes, I am sending you to the Gentiles to open their eyes, so they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God. Then they will receive forgiveness for their sins and be given a place among God’s people, who are set apart by faith in me.’

This is the problem with sola scriptura. Without context and tradition, any person who just picked up the Bible, made a prayer, and feels that the Spirit has sealed tham as one of Christ's feels he is fit to lead and to interpret. Its why we had David Koresh and Jim Jones.

Context is key. So is tradition when it is based off of what the Apostles did in the book of Acts and what they wrote in their letters. If any person stays within that context, they will not stray away from doing and teaching God's will. Acts 6 goes into more detail:

So the Twelve (Apostles) called a meeting of all the believers. They said, “We apostles should spend our time teaching the word of God, not running a food program. And so, brothers, select seven men who are well respected and are full of the Spirit and wisdom. We will give them this responsibility. Then we apostles can spend our time in prayer and teaching the word.”

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

The thing is God said our heart is corrupt and evil. Christians and atheists can do good works but many times it is not with real love. What is involved is hidden with a ulterior motive.

People do good because that is what God has put in our DNA. But humanity is more bent towards evil than good. That is another reason Jesus came. To make men and woman into the original creation God intended.

Agreed. I'd argue that a person who is doing good specifically to help the person in need is doing a more godly mitzvah than the person who is doing good because he/she believes God ordered it be done. Also, I realize that this is Christian thread but I do believe whenever we're discussing Christianity its imperative we also take into account the Jewish response to the issue as well. Judaism doesn't teach that humanity is more bent towards evil than good, nor does it teach the fall of humanity. Therefore when discussing THE BIBLE, we should be clear which view we're describing, the Christian or Jewish interpretation.

 

[Gorgon]

Well I wasn't raised Christian but being raised Jewish and having to confront my parents that I at the time was studying to be a Jehovah's Witness? Yea, that sucked. Even though I was Jewish and Bar Mitzvah at 13, I was never religious. I would have considered myself an atheist at the time. Then I met a girl who I fell for HARD who I later found out was a JW. In order to continue seeing her I had to have been a JW or at least studying to become one. So I did. Telling my mother and father was reallllllllllllllllly uncomfortable but they didn't pressure or disown me or anything.

I ended up studying with the JW's for a year and was on the path to baptism until I just realized that much of it I couldn't accept as true. I spent time studying, talking to different people, reading, praying and came to the conclusion that what I was being taught flew in the face of who I was naturally: someone who always questioned everything around him.
Leaving the JW's was difficult as well since I had made some friends, not to mention I knew it would be the end of me and the girl I was in love with.

I ended up becoming a born again Christian 6 months later and attended a very conservative church (Church of Christ). Was there for 2+ years. I met 2 of my best friends in the world through that experience who later became my roommates. Became VERY close with my pastor as well. But in the end I disagreed with how the leadership viewed the world around them (us vs them mentality) and I left.

At the time I was deciding which school to attend for my Masters. It was either Pepperdine which was pretty much a Church of Christ university although I was offered a 90% scholarship there, or Fuller Seminary. At Fuller I knew I would be challenged much more so I went there. I was your basic conservative evangelical who thought he knew it all. People in PoliGAF knew me at that time. Over the next 3 years, partially due to what I learned and then life experience I changed.

I don't go to church currently due to my disagreement with many churches I have attended. My wife still goes to the church my in laws are pastors over. They're great and never pressure me but I do feel like the red headed step child sometimes. I love my in laws as they're two of the best people I know. Non judgemental, accepting of others, etc. but I am just not comfortable being a church environment. Haven't been for a couple of years.

Interesting story. Thanks for charing.

 

[Chaplain]

Agreed. I'd argue that a person who is doing good specifically to help the person in need is doing a more godly mitzvah than the person who is doing good because he/she believes God ordered it be done.

Only God knows the answer to that.

Also, I realize that this is Christian thread but I do believe whenever we're discussing Christianity its imperative we also take into account the Jewish response to the issue as well.

I always take into account the Old Testament because everything taught in the New Testament is from the Old. All of the disciples were Jewish. Remember that Jesus was Jewish and so is God. That is why God keeps such detailed books.

Judaism doesn't teach that humanity is more bent towards evil than good, nor does it teach the fall of humanity. Therefore when discussing THE BIBLE, we should be clear which view we're describing, the Christian or Jewish interpretation.

If you go to the Prophets in the Old Testament, you will read that the OT does teach about the fall of Humanity. The book of Isaiah goes into great detail about how evil mankind really is. Just a thought since the Disciples always used the Old Testament scriptures to teach about God's plan for mankind.

 

[Aristion]

of course:

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven" Matt: 7:21

No Protestant disputes the important role of good works in the Christian life, except for the fact that good works don't save, only Christ does. Good works simply demonstrate the true faith already possessed by the Christian.

 

[hellclerk]

A lot of what Catholics practice and believe, especially Roman Catholics, are not in the Bible. A lot of it is pagan - they are man-made rules and not of God, such as changing the 10 commandments. Please watch these videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5m62FWi0Jw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ljZbemX0dw&feature=related

I was going to give you an answer, but then I watched those videos that displayed such a fantastic ignorance of Catholic theology and traditional context it's ridiculous. If you want to have an intelligent discussion with me, you can't listen to bullshit like that.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

I was going to give you an answer, but then I watched those videos that displayed such a fantastic ignorance of Catholic theology and traditional context it's ridiculous. If you want to have an intelligent discussion with me, you can't listen to bullshit like that.

I havent watched them but I'd almost bet that their akin to the Cult books found in Christian bookstores that include Roman Cathlocism as one of the cults covered.

 

[Chaplain]

I was going to give you an answer, but then I watched those videos that displayed such a fantastic ignorance of Catholic theology and traditional context it's ridiculous. If you want to have an intelligent discussion with me, you can't listen to bullshit like that.

I think it is easier to just do what Jesus and God's Word says. If we stick to God's truth, then man made divisions will disappear and we will be united as one. God has called each of us to love & love others. God wants us to love good and hate evil. As long as I stick close to Christ and do what He says, I am safe of not loving people.

 

[Aristion]

I was going to give you an answer, but then I watched those videos that displayed such a fantastic ignorance of Catholic theology and traditional context it's ridiculous. If you want to have an intelligent discussion with me, you can't listen to bullshit like that.

Here's an interesting excerpt from a debate between a Roman Catholic and a Protestant theologian.

I actually side with the Protestant on this discussion.

 

[TheChewyWaffles]

Any fans of the scholar N.T. Wright in this thread?

 

[KtSlime]

One day the Buddha was sitting in meditation in his cave while his most trusted disciple, Ananda, was outside collecting food for their next mealtime. Ananda looked up from his chores when he saw, coming toward the
cave, the Buddha's nemesis, Mara. Mara was a demon king who sought to prevent the Buddha from reaching enlightenment beneath the bodhi tree. Since then he had continued to be a perpetual thorn in the Buddha's side, so to speak, cultivating greed, desire and hatred in men. Ananda new this and was immediately enraged by his appearance at the Buddha's cave.

Ananda approached Mara: "Get out of here! The Buddha does not wish to have his cave invaded by demons!"

Mara replied: "Go and ask him for yourself. I simply wish to speak with your master."

Reluctantly and nervously Ananda did as the demon king asked and entered the Buddha's cave. "World Honored One, the demon king, Mara approaches your cave and seeks an audience with you. I have already instructed him to leave but he insisted I ask you myself."

The Buddha's eyes opened from his meditation and he smiled, widely. "Mara is here? Really? It has been so long since we have spoken. Yes, yes, ready some tea and invite him in and we'll talk."

Dumbfounded, Ananda did as the Buddha asked, putting a pot on the fire to boil and then going outside to tell Mara that he was welcome in the Buddha's cave. "As I knew I would be, little Ananda," said the demon king arrogantly, brushing past the Buddha's humble disciple.

When Mara entered the cave the Buddha rose to his feet, nearly leaping into the air with excitement. "Mara, my good friend, it has been so long since we have seen each other. Please sit, have some tea and tell me why you have come to visit."

Ananda was very nervous now and listened to the conversation between his master and the demon. Mara sipped his tea slowly and then spoke. "Buddha, things are not going well. I wish to be something else. Something other than Mara."

"But, Mara, you are so good at being Mara. Remember when you sent images of sense pleasures and warnings of how difficult it would be for me to fully reach enlightenment when I sat beneath the bodhi tree? That
was a fantastic job of being Mara. I really had to struggle to get where I am now. I truly owe you a debt of gratitude."

Now Ananda was getting very fearful. He did not like the idea of Buddha having a debt of gratitude to Mara. This was very upsetting but he listened further.

"Well, I suppose you are right," said Mara, "but being Mara I always have to be sneaking around in the shadows, talking in riddles and half-truths. It is such hard work always trying to think of the best things to say and do. I just...I think it would be easier to be something else. And the worst part: my disciples are now talking of non-duality, peace, social justice, non-violence...it is so frustrating being Mara. I think it would be much better if you took my disciples. Maybe we could switch for a while? You could be Mara and I could try being Buddha?"

At this request Ananda's heart really began to pound. He knew that his master had just said he owed Mara a debt and he also knew how profound his master's compassion truly was. He had seen him give to others when he had almost nothing. He was terrified that he would now become the disciple of Mara and the Buddha would become a demon king. No worse thought was imaginable.

The Buddha thought. He sipped his tea. And then he spoke: "Mara, do you think it is just frustrating being Mara? Being the Buddha is equally...no, doubly frustrating, I guarantee. You think you have trouble with your disciples? Mine put words in my mouth and write them into "sutras" that I have never said. I teach them about non-attachment to material things and what do they do? They build stupas and erect shrines in my name! They even build enormous statues of me out of gold just to pray to even though I have told them time and time again that I am not a god. And they sell trinkets in temples with my words blazed upon them. It is an absolute pain. But I do not give up being Buddha because that is what I am."

Mara sighed and vanished into the shadows. Ananda felt slightly relieved but continued to worry that one day Mara would get what he ultimately wanted.

I don't think hating evil is right either, cause actions that can be attributed as evil are within all of us, and make all of us who we are. I think it may be best to contemplate our actions, and understand why we make them.

 

[GhaleonQ]

Any fans of the scholar N.T. Wright in this thread?

I'm a political fan of him, in that I haven't REALLY investigated his theology, but I

1. expect that he agrees with my Missouri Synod Lutheranism in a lot of ways and 1st principles.

2. think that, whatever your opinion on his theology, it's good that such an advocate exists within this church. Since the Anglican church doesn't have splinters, diversity has to exist with 1 Communion.

What's so interesting about him?

 

[JCRedeems]

Awesome find. I love watching heated debates.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

I'm a political fan of him, in that I haven't REALLY investigated his theology, but I

1. expect that he agrees with my Missouri Synod Lutheranism in a lot of ways and 1st principles.

2. think that, whatever your opinion on his theology, it's good that such an advocate exists within this church. Since the Anglican church doesn't have splinters, diversity has to exist with 1 Communion.

What's so interesting about him?

If anyone is Interested in the topic of how Christians are to live in a non Christian world read some stuff by John Elliot. Masterful. Favorite commentary is his work on Epistle of Peter in Anchor series.

 

[racooon]

So what do you guys think about Job?

 

[hellclerk]

Here's an interesting excerpt from a debate between a Roman Catholic and a Protestant theologian.

I actually side with the Protestant on this discussion.

Yeah, well he's the one that posted the video, so I take it with a grain of salt.

I think it is easier to just do what Jesus and God's Word says. If we stick to God's truth, then man made divisions will disappear and we will be united as one. God has called each of us to love & love others. God wants us to love good and hate evil. As long as I stick close to Christ and do what He says, I am safe of not loving people.

Yeah, but doing the "easier" thing isn't necessarily the "right" thing. If we knew and understood "God's Truth", then it wouldn't be any problem, but the thing is, we DON'T KNOW or fully understand God's Truth because God's Truth is greater than our ability to understand fully. See where I'm going with this? Catholic doctrine is a doctrine of uncertainty, and certainty is a great arrogance. That's why Jesus died on the cross, to humble himself and show us how to be humble ourselves. To not assume of God's power is the most basic of humilities you can do. Assuming your are safe or that what you're doing is "right" might be easier and more comfortable, but it's not necessarily true. It's understanding this and still being forward and positive that's most important.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

So what do you guys think about Job?

Honestly your question is valid but the way you frame it with that pic is just disrespectful.

 

[TheChewyWaffles]

So what do you guys think about Job?

Could be a story with an intended lesson. I don't even think it has to be based on a historical person. I know many Christians would disagree with me, but that's the way I see it.

 

[ghst]

Could be a story with an intended lesson. I don't even think it has to be based on a historical person. I know many Christians would disagree with me, but that's the way I see it.

for what it's worth, i actually find the lore of the bible pretty compelling at times and look forward to the day that i can invoke its myth and symbolism without treading on someone's theistic toes, much like pagan folklore or grecian legend.

 

[hellclerk]

Honestly your question is valid but the way you frame it with that pic is just disrespectful.

Really? I think it's hilarious, and the message is good too: no matter how bad things may be, have faith. Faith that there is good and love. That's the most important thing.

 

[apana]

Does anyone remember that old christian cartoon, the one where the kid went back in time with a robot?

 

[KtSlime]

for what it's worth, i actually find the lore of the bible pretty compelling at times and look forward to the day that i can invoke its myth and symbolism without treading on someone's theistic toes, much like pagan folklore or grecian legend.

Same here, the parables and stories are very interesting, and I believe the world would be a better place if more people read the Bible (Man I can't believe how many people call themselves Christians but have never read it). Reading it as literature and not the word of God is the way to go. IMO.

Job is one of the better parts of the OT I think, as a message of hope I think it is great, as a message of blind obedience and loyalty, I have to question what purpose that serves other than to assuage the fears of people that might turn away in times of relentless hardship.

I guess it serves a good purpose if God exists, but if he doesn't, it seems it could do more harm than good.

 

[ronito]

Mormons are one of the few religions that believe that Job actually happened (along with some other "everything in the bible is literal!" groups)

It was one of the many straws upon the camel's back in my time with christianity. I couldn't believe in a God that would do that.