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[manueldelalas]

At the risk of turning this into an evolution thread, I would need to see some sort of proof for that last assertion. Maybe in sheer reasoning that could be true, but you seem to be making a few unwarranted assumptions. I want to make two points here. 1) There are many different dimensions to the mind. We can talk about social IQ, emotional capacity, self-awareness, and tool use. In those aspects, a monkey's mind is far more developed than that of a frog's. 2) Without understanding the difference between our minds and the ways in which those differences could have evolved, it is impossible to say just how big of a gap it is. Even on a cursory level, I think that we are beginning to understand that the evolution of the human mind could have been the result of a few simple yet very unlikely changes that, when they occurred, opened the so-called floodgates to allow the rapid expansion in mental capacity. In other words, there might have been a road block to the evolution of an incredibly sophisticated mind that was abolished on the path to humanity.

And anyway, monkeys are at least very child-like and probably have the intelligence of a toddler. We can see part of ourselves in them. But a frog can barely even be compared to a human. It does have consciousness but doesn't have much else. Besides, there are lots of proofs for the common descent of creatures. Incredulity is not an argument.

EDIT: If you really want to argue this, then perhaps you should PM me or head to the official evolution thread. This one doesn't really need another argument that barely pertains to its original intentions.

Look, I mostly agree with the theory of evolution. The part I can't quite agree is that humans come from the same ancestor as apes. Even though there is a big gap in intelligence between an ape and a frog, I think the gap is bigger from ape to human. That's my point. I have shown ITT that a two year old kid is more intelligent than the ape on youtube (undoubtedly one of the most intelligent apes there are). And human intelligence develops 38 more years and reaches it's peak at 40 years old.

But don't know any other theory that explains better the origin of the human being, and I have shown that there is a notable DNA similitude between man and ape. I'm of the opinion that God had something to do in this mysterious (at least for me) thing, but I'm not trying to pass that as a fact to other people; all I'm trying to say is that the theory of evolution doesn't explain satisfactorily (IMO) the origin of man.

 

[SonnyBoy]

I think the general consensus here is, even if you're Christian or not, you're trolling this thread and everyone is saying "get out".

In any other thread he wouldn't even have the option, he'd be banned already.

 

[threenote]

Look, I mostly agree with the theory of evolution. The part I can't quite agree is that humans come from the same ancestor as apes. Even though there is a big gap in intelligence between an ape and a frog, I think the gap is bigger from ape to human. That's my point. I have shown ITT that a two year old kid is more intelligent than the ape on youtube (undoubtedly one of the most intelligent apes there are). And human intelligence develops 38 more years and reaches it's peak at 40 years old.

But don't know any other theory that explains better the origin of the human being, and I have shown that there is a notable DNA similitude between man and ape. I'm of the opinion that God had something to do in this mysterious (at least for me) thing, but I'm not trying to pass that as a fact to other people; all I'm trying to say is that the theory of evolution doesn't explain satisfactorily (IMO) the origin of man.

You don't know what evolution is. Hell, you don't even understand your own religion.

Go educate yourself. Your ignorance is repulsive.

 

[exwallst]

Yes, the 'eye in the sky' inasmuch as it works increases efficiencies for a lot of people and everyone benefits from that. It is by no means the only or, imo, best way to verify but there are lots of examples where it worked super well.

 

[Ivan A Nguyen]

Well I don't think trolling for humour is as bad as denying human rights and burning witches, but vov.

If only they knew that someone would stand up for them on a thread on an internet message forum, they might have gone to their graves feeling a little bit better.

 

[JCRedeems]

Christianity is kind of the root source of Christians.

Can you say with certainty that you've followed his teachings to the letter? And how can you be certain he said these things? You have the Bible as evidence, but I hope you at least agree that the Bible was written by people, not by God, or Jesus. It is a matter of faith that the New Testament is also the word of Jesus, and without this initial leap in faith you have nothing. I and many others question how and why Christians made that first step necessary to their belief.

I'll leave it to others to nitpick particular passages about stuff that's out of tune with modern thought. Simply put, not everything he taught would fly today. When Jesus was alive, the world was very different. People were different, the way they lived was different, the way they communicated with each other was different. It's silly to assume his teachings are universal from the first days of Creation even to the last days of existence.

I agree with this mostly. But I also enjoy debate. And this is a discussion board. If you present yourself as a target you will be bashed, that's the long and short of it. And you sounded less like an open-minded Christian who accepts science along with his faith in your first post, and more like a hardcore bible thumper who takes His word as infallible truth.

There are a lot of people who claim Christianity it doesn't mean they are true Christians. Jesus asked, "why do you call me Lord but don't do what I say?" Luke 6:46. I go randomly ask people at a strip club and probably at least half will say they are Christian. They are nominal Christians. That's not to say that true Christians will never stumble but if you were a true Christian God's spirit would convict you of sinning.

So again, the issue is with people, not Christianity. Jesus taught and exemplified compassion for the poor and sick; taught to love God with all your heart and mind and to love your neighbor and to be servants to one another among other things. Yet, people have a penchant to bash Christianity? It's sad to me but not surprising when the Bible says the world is in enmity with God and the Truth (Jesus Christ).

Of course what Jesus taught wouldn't fly today, but it didn't fly then either. The reason why many were angry with Jesus then because he exposed their sins. All the sins we deal with today people in his day dealt with such as fornication and murder/hate. Jesus said the world will pass away but his words will never pass away. So his teachings are forever. Jesus said not many will accept the Word but those who were wise would accept it. He likened it to a man who built his house on a sturdy foundation when the torrents hit.

Actually I do find the Bible as the infallible Word of God. How do I know? Because God's Holy Spirit confirmed it for me. Once you are saved through Jesus Christ, God gives you the free gift of the Holy Spirit. I can testify it's real! No joke.

 

[racooon]

Admitting you were trolling?

No. I forget who it was, but they said something along the lines of 'trolling in this thread is being just as bad as an extremist fundamentalist'. or something similar.

If only they knew that someone would stand up for them on a thread on an internet message forum, they might have gone to their graves feeling a little bit better.

I have no idea what that comment is meant to mean.

 

[Dabookerman]

So.. Serious question. But what kind of apple was it that Adam ate? Braeburn? Jonagold?

 

[opticalmace]

Yes, the 'eye in the sky' inasmuch as it works increases efficiencies for a lot of people and everyone benefits from that. It is by no means the only or, imo, best way to verify but there are lots of examples where it worked super well.

The efficiency of what?

 

[Haly]

Look, I mostly agree with the theory of evolution. The part I can't quite agree is that humans come from the same ancestor as apes. Even though there is a big gap in intelligence between an ape and a frog, I think the gap is bigger from ape to human. That's my point. I have shown ITT that a two year old kid is more intelligent than the ape on youtube (undoubtedly one of the most intelligent apes there are). And human intelligence develops 38 more years and reaches it's peak at 40 years old.

But don't know any other theory that explains better the origin of the human being, and I have shown that there is a notable DNA similitude between man and ape. I'm of the opinion that God had something to do in this mysterious (at least for me) thing, but I'm not trying to pass that as a fact to other people; all I'm trying to say is that the theory of evolution doesn't explain satisfactorily (IMO) the origin of man.

One thing you should understand is that intelligence is only one method of survival. And it's been shown that there are other species with similar levels of intelligence as our ancestors. Only ours prevailed. Why? It might be because of the way intelligence works, and that it's difficult for two self aware species to coexist, or it may be just be luck of a draw (religious minded people tend trouble thinking that randomness might play a part in their lives). This is a question suited for biological anthropologists.

However intelligence is not the end goal of evolution, it just happens to be the most convenient for an environment like Earth. If the world were different, if the environment was still extremely hostile to a species as physically inept as ours (and we are pretty weak by animal standards), there's a good chance we would not exist at all.

Thus you should not compare the relative intelligences when it comes to distinguishing species, since intelligence is subjective. You should compare DNA instead, which is objective and consistent (with a certain degree of deviation) from species to species.

One last thing. Science doesn't seek to be satisfying, it seeks to be consistent with evidence and observation. To dismiss it because "well it doesn't seem right" is just silly in the context of science.

 

[duk]

God is good, God is love, I believe!

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

There are a lot of people who claim Christianity it doesn't mean they are true Christians. Jesus asked, "why do you call me Lord but don't do what I say?" Luke 6:46. I go randomly ask people at a strip club and probably at least half will say they are Christian. They are nominal Christians. That's not to say that true Christians will never stumble but if you were a true Christian God's spirit would convict you of sinning.

So again, the issue is with people, not Christianity. Jesus taught and exemplified compassion for the poor and sick; taught to love God with all your heart and mind and to love your neighbor and to be servants to one another among other things. Yet, people have a penchant to bash Christianity? It's sad to me but not surprising when the Bible says the world is in enmity with God and the Truth (Jesus Christ).

Of course what Jesus taught wouldn't fly today, but it didn't fly then either. The reason why many were angry with Jesus then because he exposed their sins. All the sins we deal with today people in his day dealt with such as fornication and murder/hate. Jesus said the world will pass away but his words will never pass away. So his teachings are forever. Jesus said not many will accept the Word but those who were wise would accept it. He likened it to a man who built his house on a sturdy foundation when the torrents hit.

Actually I do find the Bible as the infallible Word of God. How do I know? Because God's Holy Spirit confirmed it for me. Once you are saved through Jesus Christ, God gives you the free gift of the Holy Spirit. I can testify it's real! No joke.

How did he confirm it was the infallible word for you? How do you know it was the Holy Spirit? This is the question I continually ask to believers and have yet to receive a response other than 'you would know if you had the Spirit'. Of course, I am a believer, was baptised a decade ago, etc. Get two Christians together, both believe in the basic beliefs that you just listed as being crucial to being a Christian. Ask both whether baptism is essential and they will disagree and yet both will use the Spirit confirming it for them and the Bible as evidence. No offense but the whole 'the Spirit told me so' is often used as the imaginary bully that nobody can defeat.

 

[Mike M]

So.. Serious question. But what kind of apple was it that Adam ate? Braeburn? Jonagold?

It's never actually stated to be an apple, just usually portrayed as such.

 

[hellclerk]

So.. Serious question. But what kind of apple was it that Adam ate? Braeburn? Jonagold?

There's nothing to say that the "forbidden fruit" was an apple or anything like that. It was just a "fruit". It's more just a macguffin to the larger concept of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Pay it no heed. Even if it WAS a literal magical fruit, it probably wouldn't be one that we would ever see again.

 

[exwallst]

And that some factions of Bible readers are coming around to dispute the hardcore interpretation of Creation from other Bible readers doesn't really count as a 'hit' in my scoring at home batting average. The 'it was symbolic' explanation may also be close to exactly wrong if the big bang is right, for example. But, regardless, historically it has scored poorly and I don't think anyone is even looking seriously at it for future explanatory guidance.

 

[Haly]

Once you are saved through Jesus Christ, God gives you the free gift of the Holy Spirit. I can testify it's real! No joke.

What if it is the work of Satan who is trying to trick you? Can you be certain of that? If so, how do you explain it away?

I have some problems with what JCRedeems is saying, but come on - that's some 3rd grade level retort.

Haha, I guess. I'm just trying to figure out why JCRedeems believes the things he does and how he justifies it to himself.

 

[teruterubozu]

What if it is the work of Satan who is trying to trick you? Can you be certain of that? If so, how do you explain it away?

I have some problems with what JCRedeems is saying, but come on - that's some 3rd grade level retort. "But what if SATAN!! Derp!"

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

I have some problems with what JCRedeems is saying, but come on - that's some 3rd grade level retort.

Perhaps it is but JCReedeems statement wasn't much better. If he were to say he believes that the Spirit has washed him over and confirmed the bible as the word of God, there is nothing that I or anybody would say. He believes it. The fact that he is claiming as FACT is what is problematic.

 

[Ivan A Nguyen]

What if it is the work of Satan who is trying to trick you? Can you be certain of that? If so, how do you explain it away?

The dude believes what he says and it makes him happy. Is there a certain reason as to why you have to bag on that? I can kind of understand if it was meant to be humor, but that supposes that what he says comes from a place of ignorance or is just plain wrong. Sure, you could say the exact same line to your computer screen and get the same amount of laughs as you would have if you had typed it down, but you didn't. There must be a need inside you to demean this person in front of others.

That kind of behavior is counter productive. If you want to see someone laugh from your comment, tell it to a mirror.

 

[MorisUkunRasik]

There are a lot of people who claim Christianity it doesn't mean they are true Christians. Jesus asked, "why do you call me Lord but don't do what I say?" Luke 6:46. I go randomly ask people at a strip club and probably at least half will say they are Christian. They are nominal Christians. That's not to say that true Christians will never stumble but if you were a true Christian God's spirit would convict you of sinning.

So again, the issue is with people, not Christianity. Jesus taught and exemplified compassion for the poor and sick; taught to love God with all your heart and mind and to love your neighbor and to be servants to one another among other things. Yet, people have a penchant to bash Christianity? It's sad to me but not surprising when the Bible says the world is in enmity with God and the Truth (Jesus Christ).

Of course what Jesus taught wouldn't fly today, but it didn't fly then either. The reason why many were angry with Jesus then because he exposed their sins. All the sins we deal with today people in his day dealt with such as fornication and murder/hate. Jesus said the world will pass away but his words will never pass away. So his teachings are forever. Jesus said not many will accept the Word but those who were wise would accept it. He likened it to a man who built his house on a sturdy foundation when the torrents hit.

Actually I do find the Bible as the infallible Word of God. How do I know? Because God's Holy Spirit confirmed it for me. Once you are saved through Jesus Christ, God gives you the free gift of the Holy Spirit. I can testify it's real! No joke.

What a crock of shit, uhhh.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

The dude believes what he says and it makes him happy, is there a certain reason as to why you have to bag on that? I can kind of understand if it was meant to be humor, but that supposes that what he says comes from a place of ignorance or is just plain wrong. Sure, you could say the exact same line to your computer screen and get the same amount of laughs as you would have if you had typed it down, but you didn't. There must be a need inside you to demean this person in front of others.

That kind of behavior is counter productive. If you want to see someone laugh from your comment, tell it to a mirror.

Again, he didn't say he BELIEVES it, he said he KNOWS it for a fact. That is the difference. I believe that God exists but there is no way I can say I know for a fact. I believe there is life after death but there is no way I can say that there is for a fact. I believe that Jesus was more than a man but I cannot say he was for a fact. Faith is about BELIEVING something to be so.

 

[exwallst]

Efficiency in trade/business primarily. But also in rule of law type stuff. Charlie Munger talks about a business, in Texas I think, that was getting eaten from the inside out due to bogus employee claims, etc. They shut it down and moved it to Utah where, relatively speaking, they had honest, God-fearing, employees. The business boomed. I can't remember the old sects than controlled other industries because of their honesty and reputation but there are lots of examples, I think.

 

[Ivan A Nguyen]

What a crock of shit, uhhh.

That is your positive influence on this thread? A thread that has hope, faith, and infinite love in the title, and that is what you bring to the table?

 

[teruterubozu]

Perhaps it is but JCReedeems statement wasn't much better. If he were to say he believes that the Spirit has washed him over and confirmed the bible as the word of God, there is nothing that I or anybody would say. He believes it. The fact that he is claiming as FACT is what is problematic.

Like I said, I have problems with some of what he says. But I do agree with JC's point that bashers often confuse the message with the messenger.

 

[Haly]

That kind of behavior is counter productive. If you want to see someone laugh from your comment, tell it to a mirror.

No, I'm genuinely curious. A lot of people, when question about their beliefs, just say "Because I believe." I think there is an underlying motivation behind that. After all, it's not like belief is spontaneous. Maybe it's because you were raised this way, or because someone told you about it and you thought it was neat, or because something happened to you to make you want to believe. But I have trouble accepting the circular logic of "Why do you believe? Because it's the word of Jesus. How do you know it's the word of Jesus? Because I believe".

 

[JCRedeems]

How did he confirm it was the infallible word for you? How do you know it was the Holy Spirit? This is the question I continually ask to believers and have yet to receive a response other than 'you would know if you had the Spirit'. Of course, I am a believer, was baptised a decade ago, etc. Get two Christians together, both believe in the basic beliefs that you just listed as being crucial to being a Christian. Ask both whether baptism is essential and they will disagree and yet both will use the Spirit confirming it for them and the Bible as evidence. No offense but the whole 'the Spirit told me so' is often used as the imaginary bully that nobody can defeat.

Because it's a spirit of power, truth and discernment. All I wanted to do was praise Jesus and spread the Good News and be fed with God's Word. You can't say it was just something made up in my mind because I didn't even know what the Holy Spirit was when I got saved. I didn't grow up in a Church environment. I was just diligently seeking God and it was an immediate change in my spirit when I confessed Jesus Christ that was totally unexpected. I was even preaching to my friends about Jesus Christ which was totally out of my character at the time. I was also convicted by the Holy Spirit about things that I didn't think were bad before such as masturbation.

The Holy Spirit edifies you with God's Word. For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Hebrews 4:12

That said, I know there are counterfeit spirits out there because I've seen videos of people in churches flailing around and shaking their heads back and forth like they are demonically possessed. That's not of God.

 

[opticalmace]

That is your positive influence on this thread? A thread that has hope, faith, and infinite love in the title, and that is what you bring to the table?

The original post also says only people who believe in God are allowed to post here, so uhh I don't think the title means much. It's a Christianity thread, you have to expect this.

 

[WillyFive]

Yes, but it isn't fact and it's widely accepted that consensus change. Irrespetic of individual scientific positions, consensus isn't a fact and is expected to eventually change, amd it has done so in the past.

this part is important:

So it's not as good as fact, and it has been shown wrong many times.

It's off-topic, but it reminded me of this part of The Colbert Report.

But that's what "Deal with it" implies doesn't it? That the responsibility lies on you and no one else. Either you try to change it or you don't.

The idea is not just you and no one else. It means it lies on us, and not on God.

It's pretty evident we have trouble governing ourselves.

Yeah, The Bible said that was going to happen. Prophets like Jeremiah believed that man couldn't govern himself either (Jer 10:23).

Even if your child leaves home after he graduates college, wouldn't you step in to help him if it looks like he needed it?

And he said he would do that too, but it won't be pretty, since that goes by the name of Armageddon (Daniel 2:44, Rev 16:16).

If we take the Genesis literally and we are all the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve, then was it not their choice that drove us out of Paradise? Certainly, I had no say in it, I'm just wallowing in the consequences. Why should the children be held responsible for the sins of the parents?

Interesting question. The Bible says sin is simply hereditary (Romans 5:12, 14). In response to this, God sent "a second Adam" to allow us to fix this (1 Corinthians 15:22, 45, 47; John 3:16, 18; Romans 6:23 and such).

 

[Ivan A Nguyen]

Again, he didn't say he BELIEVES it, he said he KNOWS it for a fact. That is the difference. I believe that God exists but there is no way I can say I know for a fact. I believe there is life after death but there is no way I can say that there is for a fact. I believe that Jesus was more than a man but I cannot say he was for a fact. Faith is about BELIEVING something to be so.

I think him claiming to 'know' something he can't prove is just another form of faith.

 

[Gorgon]

Look, I mostly agree with the theory of evolution. The part I can't quite agree is that humans come from the same ancestor as apes. Even though there is a big gap in intelligence between an ape and a frog, I think the gap is bigger from ape to human. That's my point. I have shown ITT that a two year old kid is more intelligent than the ape on youtube (undoubtedly one of the most intelligent apes there are). And human intelligence develops 38 more years and reaches it's peak at 40 years old.

But don't know any other theory that explains better the origin of the human being, and I have shown that there is a notable DNA similitude between man and ape. I'm of the opinion that God had something to do in this mysterious (at least for me) thing, but I'm not trying to pass that as a fact to other people; all I'm trying to say is that the theory of evolution doesn't explain satisfactorily (IMO) the origin of man.

Actually, you can have both. You can accept the evolution of man from a comon ancestor with other primates while at the same time believing that what makes Man different was by God's design, independently of the evolutionary path.

Many scientists endorse this view, since you reason it with both science and faith withouut making it mutually exclusive. I don't endorse this view because I'm an atheist, but just thought that I could make an interesting point for you.

 

[hellclerk]

Actually I do find the Bible as the infallible Word of God. How do I know? Because God's Holy Spirit confirmed it for me. Once you are saved through Jesus Christ, God gives you the free gift of the Holy Spirit. I can testify it's real! No joke.

Ah, but you assume you are saved. You so self-righteously and pridefully assume that God has granted you the Holy Spirit already. That's what we call in my church blasphemy and heresy. Me? Well since I'm the greatest sinner on earth, I wouldn't dare assume that God will have me bound for heaven. Ask anyone else in my church with a lick of theological awareness and they'll say the same thing. I do NOT know I am saved. I don't even assume to believe I am saved. I hope that I'll be saved, but I would never be so arrogant to assume that I am already.

Scripture is the fallible word of man as inspired by the infallible Word of God, kind of like a movie based on a book. Things get lost in transition. Knowing God exists and testifying to a certainty of God is simply missing the point. Do not seek to know, but seek to understand. Do not seek to declare but seek to love for it is the best you can do as such a lowly and limited being unwilling and unable to marvel in the full glory of God.

 

[KtSlime]

The dude believes what he says and it makes him happy. Is there a certain reason as to why you have to bag on that?

Because it moves his understanding of morality to a place external to the human experience.

If God is decreeing morality, and all in the domain of good is determined by God, then there are passages in the Bible that I or anyone else can use to justify owning slaves, killing infidels, raping women, etc.

These justifications are dangerous because no one can be held accountable, they simply point to God and say that he is A) Not taking questions B) Not subject to our judgements. As a secularist, I don't want to live in such a world.

 

[Haly]

It's off-topic, but it reminded me of this part of The Colbert Report.

Sorry I can't watch that, I'm deaf.

The idea is not just you and no one else. It means it lies on us, and not on God.

I was using the impersonal "you". Sorry for the confusion.

And he said he would do that too, but it won't be pretty, since that goes by the name of Armageddon (Daniel 2:44, Rev 16:16).

If God's solution to a wayward child is to wipe way their existence (my understanding of Armageddon), I have to question His parenting methods.

Interesting question. The Bible says sin is simply hereditary (Romans 5:12, 14). In response to this, God sent "a second Adam" to allow us to fix this (1 Corinthians 15:22, 45, 47; John 3:16, 18; Romans 6:23 and such).

But do YOU believe this? Do you believe, for example, that it'd be just to convict a child because his father murdered someone.

 

[teruterubozu]

That said, I know there are counterfeit spirits out there because I've seen videos of people in churches flailing around and shaking their heads back and forth like they are demonically possessed. That's not of God.

So you are in enmity with these folks? It goes both ways, you know.

 

[MorisUkunRasik]

That is your positive influence on this thread? A thread that has hope, faith, and infinite love in the title, and that is what you bring to the table?

I don't care what emotions the thread mentions or the rules the OP has stamped on this thread. When someone says the bible is the infallible word of God cause God told him so, I'm not just going to let that slide.

Discuss til you're blue in the face, but I will without hesitation call anyone out making such outlandish claims.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Because it's a spirit of power, truth and discernment. All I wanted to do was praise Jesus and spread the Good News and be fed with God's Word. You can't say it was just something made up in my mind because I didn't even know what the Holy Spirit was when I got saved. I didn't grow up in a Church environment. I was just diligently seeking God and it was an immediate change in my spirit when I confessed Jesus Christ that was totally unexpected. I was even preaching to my friends about Jesus Christ which was totally out of my character at the time. I was also convicted by the Holy Spirit about things that I didn't think were bad before such as masturbation.

The Holy Spirit edifies you with God's Word. For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Hebrews 4:12

That said, I know there are counterfeit spirits out there because I've seen videos of people in churches flailing around and shaking their heads back and forth like they are demonically possessed. That's not of God.

I understand that but that still doesn't change my question: how do you know for a fact that it was the Holy Spirit? Is it possible it was the Spirit most definitely. But you're arguing it is 100%. This is what I was referring to as black and white.

If you're speaking to a Muslim about accepting Christ and he tells you that he will read the Bible if you read the Qu'ran with an open mind, would you?

 

[exwallst]

And I largely agree with the notion that it's a weaker personality who requires the fear of Big Brother to keep his word. But, if I'm dealing with those weaker personalities anyway, I kind of hope their God tells them to keep their word instead of, say, kill those they think are heathen.

 

[teruterubozu]

I don't care what emotions the thread mentions or the rules the OP has stamped on this thread. When someone says the bible is the infallible word of God cause God told him so, I'm not just going to let that slide.

Discuss til you're blue in the face, but I will without hesitation call anyone out making such outlandish claims.

With "what a crock of shit uhhhh"? That's some effective "calling out" man.

 

[Ivan A Nguyen]

Because it moves his understanding of morality to a place external to the human experience.

If God is decreeing morality, and all in the domain of good is determined by God, then there are passages in the Bible that I or anyone else can use to justify owning slaves, killing infidels, raping women, etc.

These justifications are dangerous because no one can be held accountable, they simply point to God and say that he is A) Not taking questions B) Not subject to our judgements. As a secularist, I don't want to live in such a world.

You make good points, and there are things I would disagree with my self in his posts. The reality of the situation is that his singular belief will not bring slavery back. I can't say anything about his proclivities when it comes to consensual love or killing infidels.

I don't think a person can be easily swayed when they reach such a state as his post reflected. The best everyone else can do is not to engage him on the subject. A negative post on his belief is just a request for him to speak more about it at length. You won't be satisfied with the justifications, and he will be pleased that he could defend his faith.

 

[DUFFMCWALIN]

Clearly I don't actually care. I didn't come to the internet to shy away from topics.
If you want to shelter yourselves, go somewhere else.

Junior I haven't seen anyone troll as hard as you have in awhile. If you did this in any other thread you probably would've had a warning or been banned by now.

Edit: anyways I'm bailing. Good try Christian-Gaf, but its not meant to be on this board.

 

[Wyndstryker]

Well, I'll just say close this thread and add it to the big pile of other attempts.

Thread has been derailed way out of track as well as people coming in who's not even going to debate but to "preach" their viewpoint. And to the list of completely clashing views with no one even attempting to find bridges to communicate from.

 

[KtSlime]

And I largely agree with the notion that it's a weaker personality who requires the fear of Big Brother to keep his word. But, if I'm dealing with those weaker personalities anyway, I kind of hope their God tells them to keep their word instead of, say, kill those they think are heathen.

I think people like that only exist because of this Big Brother complex, I think if people were educated with truth, science, skepticism, and respect that there would be fewer weak personalities, and people would be able to make well founded, educated decisions based on logic and morality based not on fear, but on respect.

Anslon: Good point, I can't sway him so each arrow I slung, that he thinks he caught further confirms his beliefs.

 

[MorisUkunRasik]

With "what a crock of shit uhhhh"? That's some effective "calling out" man.

I doubt there's much to say to a person who believes that.

 

[Gorgon]

Well, I'll just say close this thread and add it to the big pile of other attempts.

Thread has been derailed way out of track as well as people coming in who's not even going to debate but to "preach" their viewpoint. And to the list of completely clashing views with no one even attempting to find bridges to communicate from.

Actually there have been a few attempts and some of them successful.

 

[manueldelalas]

One thing you should understand is that intelligence is only one method of survival. And it's been shown that there are other species with similar levels of intelligence as our ancestors. Only ours prevailed. Why? It might be because of the way intelligence works, and that it's difficult for two self aware species to coexist, or it may be just be luck of a draw (religious minded people tend trouble thinking that randomness might play a part in their lives). This is a question suited for biological anthropologists.

However intelligence is not the end goal of evolution, it just happens to be the most convenient for an environment like Earth. If the world were different, if the environment was still extremely hostile to a species as physically inept as ours (and we are pretty weak by animal standards), there's a good chance we would not exist at all.

Thus you should not compare the relative intelligences when it comes to distinguishing species, since intelligence is subjective. You should compare DNA instead, which is objective and consistent (with a certain degree of deviation) from species to species.

One last thing. Science doesn't seek to be satisfying, it seeks to be consistent with evidence and observation. To dismiss it because "well it doesn't seem right" is just silly in the context of science.

Again, I'm not dismissing it; if you read the text you quoted, you'll see that I know of no other theory more satisfying than the theory of evolution. But to me it isn't conclusive, because it doesn't explain satisfactorily the human being itself. If you see the cat family, you'll see different types of cats, but none displays the significant difference that exists between apes and humans. This is true to all the different kinds of animals.

I know that at a time there was the Neanderthal, which was an advanced ape (or humanoid being) from a different specie (or family or whatever, I suck at naming species) than the Homo Sapiens, but they populated the Earth at roughly the same time, which was more advanced than your average ape, being able to build tools and such. I still think that even if the Neanderthal was more advanced than the average ape, it still had a fundamental difference with the Homo Sapiens.

Let's put a bold example. If I traveled through space, and I find a planet poblated by animals similar to the animals on Earth. Obviously I would expect a superior animal in the same way that we humans are superior on Earth. But the only reason I would expect to find humanoids, is because we humans exist on Earth. Logically and rationally speaking there is no reason to think of finding a highly developed and intelligent species just by seeing wild animals. A planet with wild animals could exist without a superior being in the same planet, there is no reason for that to not happen.

I believe that us humans are something more than simple evolved animals, that is my belief, and that isn't explained by the theory of evolution.

 

[WillyFive]

Sorry I can't watch that, I'm deaf.

That's fine, it was not in response to a post you made.

if God's solution to a wayward child is to wipe way their existence (my understanding of Armageddon), I have to question is parenting methods.

Well, Armageddon is more of a war on all things evil, to get rid of Satan and to rid them from his creation. He gave us instructions on how to avoid and not be affected by it, so it's not like 'wiping away' his children away is his intention (Matthew 7:15-20, 23). It's like calling your son to get out of his really nice house on the beach before the Hurricane rolls in.

But do YOU believe this? Do you believe, for example, that it'd be just to convict a child because his father murdered someone.

If God didn't allow us a way to prove the sentence wrong (which God did), then it would be very unfair indeed. But that is not the case.

 

[Wyndstryker]

Actually there have been a few attempts and some of them successful.

Yeah but it seems the unwanted elements are growing faster than the worthwhile elements. Only way any worthwhile communication can really go between these two sides is really strict moderation in the thread so that it just doesn't become a "you're wrong, i'm right" scenario.

There's still hope for the thread as long as it doesn't go further down the drain.

 

[JCRedeems]

Ah, but you assume you are saved. You so self-righteously and pridefully assume that God has granted you the Holy Spirit already. That's what we call in my church blasphemy and heresy. Me? Well since I'm the greatest sinner on earth, I wouldn't dare assume that God will have me bound for heaven. Ask anyone else in my church with a lick of theological awareness and they'll say the same thing. I do NOT know I am saved. I don't even assume to believe I am saved. I hope that I'll be saved, but I would never be so arrogant to assume that I am already.

Scripture is the fallible word of man as inspired by the infallible Word of God, kind of like a movie based on a book. Things get lost in transition. Knowing God exists and testifying to a certainty of God is simply missing the point. Do not seek to know, but seek to understand. Do not seek to declare but seek to love for it is the best you can do as such a lowly and limited being unwilling and unable to marvel in the full glory of God.

That's because you don't know the power of what Jesus Christ did on the cross. No one deserves to be saved but it is through the blood of Jesus Christ we are granted salvation if you believe in him from your heart.

It reads:

Romans 5:8, “But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.”
John 3:16, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
1st Timothy 1:15, “This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.”
1st Peter 1:18-19, “Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ...”
John 6:40, “And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Acts 26:18, “To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.”
Romans 10:13, “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
1st Corinthians 3:11, "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”
Galatians 3:26, “For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.”

And I don't boast about it, it's all because of Jesus Christ and what he did on the cross. It was my faith in Jesus Christ that saved me and not because of anything else. It reads "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

God will surely give you the holy spirit once you are redeemed through the blood of Christ. Jesus promised it: "And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always, the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you." (Jn 14:16-17)

"The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name - he will teach you everything and remind you of all that I told you." (Jn 14:26)

"When the Advocate comes whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth that proceeds from the Father, he will testify to me. And you also testify, because you have been with me from the beginning." (Jn 15:26)

 

[FunkyMunkey]

Well, I'll just say close this thread and add it to the big pile of other attempts.

Thread has been derailed way out of track as well as people coming in who's not even going to debate but to "preach" their viewpoint. And to the list of completely clashing views with no one even attempting to find bridges to communicate from.

This attitude is so annoying. Why close a thread because of a couple users? It's like people in the "pics that make you laugh thread" saying it should be closed because 2 people post a few stupid pictures.

This thread has already had some interesting back-and-forths and I've been reading the whole thing. The couple people here trolling are obvious in their intentions, even to the lurkers. Let them look continue to look like fools who don't know anything about the theology they abhor.

 

[exwallst]

And I think it's weak that all these religions fight the government to keep their tax-exempt status. From a business perspective, of course it makes sense to lobby the government so your customers can pay lower taxes in exchange for buying your products. But, from a moral purity perspective, it would seem stronger to ask people to pay regardless.