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[Count Dookkake]

Maybe that's the way you'd like to think about it.

But in the Christian's mindset, it's more like you have cancer and you refuse to believe it.

Right, I know. I was just answering your question.

 

[The Lamp]

Right, I know. I was just answering your question.

Oh, okay, I was just making sure I was understanding why he said cooties.

 

[Count Dookkake]

Oh, okay, I was just making sure I was understanding why he said cooties.

Right.

Any more questions?

 

[Raist]

Jesus said that his disciples were to go out into the world and tell people about the condition of man and what God did for them.

That being said, the reason Christians tell others that they are sinners and need God's forgiveness is because this is the best gift anyone can receive in life. Christians would not be loving if they did not tell others the truth they have found in Christ. I want everyone to experience what God offers through His Son: Forgiveness and Mercy from past, present and future sins.

Christians are viewed by God as adopted sons or daughters (John 1:12-13). They still have a sinful nature but now they have God's Spirit living in them. So they have two natures (one evil and one good). Christians have a daily struggle between both natures but we are offered victory over the evil by abiding in Christ (doing what he says).

Did what I said make sense?

So basically you want to help people by having them to embrace a religion that would have their sins forgivens. Sins which have been defined and decreted by that very same religion.
That's a bit pointless isn't it?

 

[JGS]

This is one of the major points where I part ways with Christianity, and a number of other religions for that matter. Speaking in terms of humanist, utilitarian ethics, most people aren't evil, and some things considered sinful are either mild transgressions or morally neutral in my eyes.

Most people (In fact, every last one of them) are indeed sinful from a Christian standpoint. Evil, like so many definitions, is often simply a word as we define them now just like some who are clearly imperfect in the Bible are described as perfect or why God can call down evil even though he is good. It's all relative and also why it's important to read things in context.

The whole purpose of any set of laws/principles is to reconcile our view to a more universal one. After all, our own opinion in and of itself has never been that special even from a society standpoint.

Christian Doctrine is no different than government statute that limits your ability to do what you feel like. Actually, that's not true because with Christianity you can do whatever you want considering you don't have to be a Christian at all. You just have greater ability to condemn it without repercussion.

That's a bit pointless isn't it?

Nope, unless you are of the opinion that all religions are the same. Then by all means pick the easiest one to follow or none at all.

 

[Slo]

The Bible actually does not encourage what you mentioned.

Just because you have select groups of people disobeying what the Bible says is not a reason to resent those who follow the Bible in general.

There are definitely people out there who put a bad name on Christianity, but that should not deter people from what the Bible actually says.

Don't judge the Bible based on actions of Christians around you. Everybody on this planet is sinful.

I have never been part of a church that didn't emphasize "spreading the good news of Jesus", which involves vicarious sacrificial redemption for your original sin. Are you suggesting that that behavior is just regional and not foundational to the religion? That would be good news.

 

[The Lamp]

I have never been part of a church that didn't emphasize "spreading the good news of Jesus", which involves vicarious sacrificial redemption for your original sin. Are you suggesting that that behavior is just regional and not foundational to the religion? That would be good news.

That wouldn't be Christianity.

Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age. (Matthew 28:16-20)

BTW I thought I'd post some songs that my friend and his worship team wrote and played. I think they're really heartfelt and powerful.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Open-Ocean/191514210883505?sk=app_2405167945

Song lyrics:

Mystery of redemption revealed
How we've been resurrected and healed
By infinite blood our sins have been erased
As everlasting God came to take our place

Ransomed hearts rejoice
As we lift up one voice
To glorify Your holy Name
And we sing...

Our hope lies in You
Lies in You, Jehovah
Our hope lies in You
Lies in You, Jehovah
Jehovah...

Listen to creation as it sings
In His death we're forgiven and redeemed
Risen, now our Savior is alive
So come on people, let's walk in new life

Love met the ocean upon its shore
Where my path reached an end
Where the water became the floor
And I know there's life on the other side
But all I can see is a line where the water meets the sky

And all I wanna do is believe
All I wanna do is let go,
Let go of me
And I just wanna let Your truth
Take over me
I just wanna see
Would You help my unbelief?

There's a mystery inside her eyes
I wanna know what makes her laugh, what makes her cry
She's an ocean, and I'm a storm
This storm will sail, should the Creator say so

Amazing cannot begin to describe
The grace that I see filling Your eyes
My life will never be the same
Beginning at the day You called my name

You saved a wretch like me

I could never deserve Your love
Reaching beyond all failures and condition
You've promised that You'd never leave
No matter what I've done, You won't forsake me

 

[Slo]

That wouldn't be Christianity.

Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age. (Matthew 28:16-20)

Perfect. So it is fundamental to Christianity to go out int the world and inform people that the Bible says they are flawed from birth and they must turn to Jesus for redemption, right? I'm not twisting things, am I?

 

[Chaplain]

So basically you want to help people by having them to embrace a religion that would have their sins forgiven.

I do not want anyone person to embrace religion or Christianity. I want them to accept Jesus (the living God) into their lives/hearts. Religion and Christianity will do nothing for a person. Only Jesus can save or help a person. Only Jesus can transform a persons character. He is the only hope humanity has.

Sins which have been defined and decreted by that very same religion.

God has chosen to reveal his truth through his servants like the prophets and Apostles. They lived for God and lived with God while on Earth. I trust their words because when I test those truths that they have proclaimed, I see through experience it is true.

That's a bit pointless isn't it?

Helping people is never pointless when you see changed lives.

 

[Count Dookkake]

I have never been part of a church that didn't emphasize "spreading the good news of Jesus", which involves vicarious sacrificial redemption for your original sin. Are you suggesting that that behavior is just regional and not foundational to the religion? That would be good news.

Slo clap.

 

[Chaplain]

Perfect. So it is fundamental to Christianity to go out int the world and inform people that the Bible says they are flawed from birth and they must turn to Jesus for redemption, right? I'm not twisting things, am I?

You do not have to believe what the Bible says to see people are flawed. I imagine that if any persons thoughts were displayed on a giant screen for all to see, people would see how flawed they were.

Just turns on the news or surf the net. The entire planet is full of flawed people (including myself).

 

[The Lamp]

Perfect. So it is fundamental to Christianity to go out int the world and inform people that the Bible says they are flawed from birth and they must turn to Jesus for redemption, right? I'm not twisting things, am I?

You're absolutely correct.

 

[Count Dookkake]

You do not have to believe what the Bible says to see people are flawed. I imagine that if any persons thoughts were displayed on a giant screen for all to see, people would see how flawed they were.

Just turns on the news or surf the net. The entire planet is full of flawed people (including myself).

He wasn't debating that point, so you didn't answer his question.

 

[Dunk#7]

I have never been part of a church that didn't emphasize "spreading the good news of Jesus", which involves vicarious sacrificial redemption for your original sin. Are you suggesting that that behavior is just regional and not foundational to the religion? That would be good news.

Behavior or Works are not required for admittance into Heaven. Nobody is worthy of Heaven by their own merits. We all fall short. Jesus was the final atonement for all sin. It is only by accepting what he as done that one gains admittance into Heaven.

Imagine a Heaven where you got in based on works. To me that sounds like it would be a terrible place full of boasting about ones works.

A Heaven based on grace through Jesus Christ would be full of humbleness and praise of the only one who is deserving.

Works should be evident in a Christians life as an outworking of what has happened to them internally. The Bible says, "By their works you will know them". However, works are not in any way a part of salvation. They are secondary.

A Christian should be abiding by what the Bible teaches and should outwardly show the fruit of the spirit in their life: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance.

EDIT: I misinterpreted what you were asking about. However I will leave my post as it still contains good information.

 

[Chaplain]

He wasn't debating that point, so you didn't answer his question.

My bad.

He is correct though.

My point was that I know people who do not believe in God or the Bible and they know, from their own group of friends and family, that everyone is flawed. Jesus said flawed people was never God's original design. All people were to be like Jesus.

 

[Raist]

I do not want anyone person to embrace religion or Christianity. I want them to accept Jesus (the living God) into their lives/hearts.

Does not compute.

 

[Dude Abides]

Those song lyrics remind of that South Park episode where they form the Christian music group. Is he singing to God or to a woman?

Edit: referring specifically to "Help My Unbelief" and "Wretch Like Me."

 

[The Lamp]

Those song lyrics remind of that South Park episode where they form the Christian music group. Is he singing to God or to a woman?

Edit: referring specifically to "Help My Unbelief" and "Wretch Like Me."

It's funny because the relationship between God and His Church is often described in the Bible as between a bride and a groom. It's something that those not very familiar with Christianity probably don't know or understand. Romantic relationships on earth are a broken, imperfect, one-dimensional reflection of the love of God.

Marriage between humans is supposed to be a faint resemblance of the ultimate covenant between God and His people, the ultimate marriage. The relationship between God and Israel is often shown as God having to watch his bride sleep around with other false idols and gods and devotions instead of being loyal to their groom, and yet time and time again He rescues them and restores them.

The romantic style of the lyrics is supposed to resemble the ultimate love and devotion a follower of Christ has for God, a bride waiting for its groom.

Oh and oceans and aspects of nature are usually referred to in a feminine way, that's been a part of literature for centuries lol.

 

[Slo]

The romantic style of the lyrics is supposed to resemble the ultimate love and devotion a follower of Christ has for God, a bride waiting for its groom.

Dudes can't marry Jesus. It is forbidden by God's word.

 

[Count Dookkake]

And what's the point of being man and wife, if god can just sneak in and cuckold you?

 

[The Lamp]

And what's the point of being man and wife, if god can just sneak in and cuckold you?

This is obviously teasing, but marriage, in the Biblical perspective, is between three people.

God, husband, and wife. As the two pull closer to God, they pull closer to each other, like a triangle. God unifies the marriage and upholds it.

 

[devenger]

This is obviously teasing, but marriage, in the Biblical perspective, is between three people.

God, husband, and wife. As the two pull closer to God, they pull closer to each other, like a triangle. God unifies the marriage and upholds it.

How long have you been married?

 

[Count Dookkake]

This is obviously teasing, but marriage, in the Biblical perspective, is between three people.

God, husband, and wife. As the two pull closer to God, they pull closer to each other, like a triangle. God unifies the marriage and upholds it.

Huh.

I guess I used to unify and uphold the marriage of some pals.

 

[The Lamp]

How long have you been married?

I'm not, I'm 20, but that's irrelevant. I've been going to church for long enough with enough Christian married couples from different age groups and walks of life to know the Biblical outlook on marriage.

Anyway, if anyone is curious as to what the Bible thinks about certain things, they should just read it for themselves.

 

[OttomanScribe]

Is it permissable for Christians to denounce anything commanded in the Old Testament?

I'm thinking about this:

If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.

 

[TaeOH]

They're just pretend.

Apparently still terminal though.

 

[JGS]

Is it permissable for Christians to denounce anything commanded in the Old Testament?

I'm thinking about this:

There's no reason to denounce it

 

[TaeOH]

Those song lyrics remind of that South Park episode where they form the Christian music group. Is he singing to God or to a woman?

Edit: referring specifically to "Help My Unbelief" and "Wretch Like Me."

Great episode.

 

[TaeOH]

And what's the point of being man and wife, if god can just sneak in and cuckold you?

OH please explain this...I have to hear this interpretation!

 

[TaeOH]

Is it permissable for Christians to denounce anything commanded in the Old Testament?

I'm thinking about this:

It is much more helpful to name the verse instead of just quoting one translation. Difficult to identify the exact context without knowing the whole story. Is this how the Quran is interpreted, a verse at a time, like the sayings of Buddah?

Without searching for the verse, I am guessing these are instructions for Israel during the conquest of Canaan.

 

[OttomanScribe]

It is much more helpful to name the verse instead of just quoting one translation. Difficult to identify the exact context without knowing the whole story. Is this how the Quran is interpreted, a verse at a time, like the sayings of Buddah?

Without searching for the verse, I am guessing these are instructions for Israel during the conquest of Canaan.

Sure thing, I think it was Ezekial something? Nope, Deuteronomy 13:6-11.

All good, it was more a general question than a specific question about the verse. I understand completely the issues with quoting verses outside of their entirety or without context or with problematic translations. My question is more that if God commanded something in the Old Testament, can a Christian denounce that thing as immoral? So if that verse refers to killing apostates, can a Christian denounce killing apostates (I am open to argument that it does not command this).

 

[Atramental]

If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.

Hmmmm. This reminds me of something. It's kind of ironic in a way.

I mean, think about it. If you were a first century Jew who was taught all your life "The LORD our God is one LORD." (Deuteronomy 6:4) and then one day some bloke said that he himself and another entity "The Holy Spirit" was God as well how would you react?

Food for thought.

 

[devenger]

I'm not, I'm 20, but that's irrelevant. I've been going to church for long enough with enough Christian married couples from different age groups and walks of life to know the Biblical outlook on marriage.

Anyway, if anyone is curious as to what the Bible thinks about certain things, they should just read it for themselves.

I wanted to clarify if you were speaking about your successful marriage or something the Bible read God did for successful marriages. I wasn't curious about the Bible, just trying to determine the source, and whether it was opinion, personal experience, etc.

 

[TaeOH]

Sure thing, I think it was Ezekial something? Nope, Deuteronomy 13:6-11.

All good, it was more a general question than a specific question about the verse. I understand completely the issues with quoting verses outside of their entirety or without context or with problematic translations. My question is more that if God commanded something in the Old Testament, can a Christian denounce that thing as immoral? So if that verse refers to killing apostates, can a Christian denounce killing apostates (I am open to argument that it does not command this).

Well of course not. The very fact that God commanded it; made it moral in that circumstance, it does not necessarily make it a moral for us today though.

 

[OttomanScribe]

There's no reason to denounce it

So if someone did it today, there would be no way a Christian could call it immoral, for God commanded it at one point in time? That is kind of what I am getting at more generally. Things like polygamy, the death penalty for lots of things etc.

 

[Goro Majima]

So if someone did it today, there would be no way a Christian could call it immoral, for God commanded it at one point in time? That is kind of what I am getting at more generally. Things like polygamy, the death penalty for lots of things etc.

The death penalty for that (and many, many other things in the OT) was basically removed when Christ died.

Remember that God is speaking to Israel on how to live and because he is a just God, when sin is committed, something has to die because that is the punishment. The principle of sacrifices is that the animal dies in your place in order to absolve the sin. When Christ died, all sin for all time can be put on the blood of Christ instead of the blood of an animal (or person) in a very particular and rigorous ceremony.

 

[OttomanScribe]

The death penalty for that (and many, many other things in the OT) was basically removed when Christ died.

Remember that God is speaking to Israel on how to live and because he is a just God, when sin is committed, something has to die because that is the punishment. The principle of sacrifices is that the animal dies in your place in order to absolve the sin. When Christ died, all sin for all time can be put on the blood of Christ instead of the blood of an animal (or person) in a very particular and rigorous ceremony.

No I understand the arguments about Christ abrogating the law. What I am talking about is that no Christian is in a place to denounce anything in the Bible as immoral, even if they do not believe they are held to it currently, because it was commanded by God at one point in time.

 

[Goro Majima]

No I understand the arguments about Christ abrogating the law. What I am talking about is that no Christian is in a place to denounce anything in the Bible as immoral, even if they do not believe they are held to it currently, because it was commanded by God at one point in time.

Yeah to denounce anything would be essentially a sin against God.

 

[Meadows]

Man, the bible is long, wish they could have done a bullet pointed slideshow. Could've cleared things up.

 

[Count Dookkake]

OH please explain this...I have to here this interpretation!

Remember the part about Mary getting knocked up?

 

[TaeOH]

Hmmmm. This reminds me of something. It's kind of ironic in a way.

THAT is cool. Thanks for sharing. I love Lego.

 

[Slo]

Remember that God is speaking to Israel on how to live and because he is a just God, when sin is committed, something has to die because that is the punishment. The principle of sacrifices is that the animal dies in your place in order to absolve the sin. When Christ died, all sin for all time can be put on the blood of Christ instead of the blood of an animal (or person) in a very particular and rigorous ceremony.

See, this is where the wheels come off for me. I do not understand the concept of how sacrificing another person/goat/deity/whatever absolves me of my sins. If I commit a sin, am I absolved of it if I run straight home and ceremonially beat my wife?

 

[Zaphod]

No I understand the arguments about Christ abrogating the law. What I am talking about is that no Christian is in a place to denounce anything in the Bible as immoral, even if they do not believe they are held to it currently, because it was commanded by God at one point in time.

I always hear that Jesus brought the new Testament that we should love each other as we do God and that this made the Old Testament no longer binding but it seems like he says otherwise in this passage.

Mathew 5:17

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[OttomanScribe]

I always hear that Jesus brought the new Testament that we should love each other as we do God and that this made the Old Testament no longer binding but it seems like he says otherwise in this passage.

Mathew 5:17

Like I said, people make arguments both ways. I know some Christians who uphold the sabbath and only eat Kosher. I won't go telling the Christians their religion. Man worshipping is man worshipping to me

 

[TaeOH]

See, this is where the wheels come off for me. I do not understand the concept of how sacrificing another person/goat/deity/whatever absolves me of my sins. If I commit a sin, am I absolved of it if I run straight home and ceremonially beat my wife?

Ultimately Sin is rebellion against God and that rebellion carries a death penalty. God certainly could have ended it right there in the garden, but He chose to delay his Judgment because He loves us and created us for a reason. The death penalty still exists though, because God is righteous and the perfect judge, the sentence needs carried out.

 

[Zaphod]

Like I said, people make arguments both ways. I know some Christians who uphold the sabbath and only eat Kosher. I won't go telling the Christians their religion. Man worshipping is man worshipping to me

Oh I don't really have a stand either way it's just one of those things that never made much sense to me.

 

[TaeOH]

Like I said, people make arguments both ways. I know some Christians who uphold the sabbath and only eat Kosher. I won't go telling the Christians their religion. Man worshipping is man worshipping to me

Generally, the ritual law has been done away with, while the moral still applies. The Sabbath is interesting though, as it is a part of the moral law. Personally I think I want to start following it because I need the rest

And what I mean by still applies is that we are commanded by Christ to still follow the moral law, it just no longer carries the death penalty for breaking it because of the Atonement. Whether or not you can lose salvation by sinning is debated quite heavily.

 

[Kinitari]

Ultimately Sin is rebellion against God and that rebellion carries a death penalty. God certainly could have ended it right there in the garden, but He chose to delay his Judgment because He loves us and created us for a reason. The death penalty still exists though, because God is righteous and the perfect judge, the sentence needs carried out.

This sort of argument is hard for a lot of people to understand. I don't just mean like "oh that's cruel" sort of thing, but I actually can't wrap my head around it.

Essentially, a simpler version would just be "If god said it, it has to be right, end of story" - correct?

 

[JGS]

So if someone did it today, there would be no way a Christian could call it immoral, for God commanded it at one point in time? That is kind of what I am getting at more generally. Things like polygamy, the death penalty for lots of things etc.

It's not the same thing.

I'm on my phone at a stop light but I can explain later.

There's a huge difference though

 

[Slo]

Ultimately Sin is rebellion against God and that rebellion carries a death penalty. God certainly could have ended it right there in the garden, but He chose to delay his Judgment because He loves us and created us for a reason. The death penalty still exists though, because God is righteous and the perfect judge, the sentence needs carried out.

Thanks, but you didn't really address my main source of confusion. I don't want to get into original sin, because I'm a skeptic on that too, but assuming as a given that I've got a death sentence on my head as you say, how exactly does punishing something else pay for my sins?